Author Topic: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers  (Read 139047 times)

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Offline Polyvore

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #200 on: August 20, 2012, 01:47:49 pm »
I have an idea, perhaps I could freeze my high meat jar, then defrost it for when I want to eat it. Will this kill the beneficial bacteria?

Offline Alive

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #201 on: August 20, 2012, 01:52:13 pm »
When my high meat jar got a couple of tiny maggots I ate them no problem  O0 (Need a guy like this but no sun glasses and facial hair!)

I've been doing a few experiments lately:

Heaps of jars of old meat maturing in a cool shed  - I rather like the smell of high meat  >D

Fresh green herbs warm fermented overnight in a un-cleaned high meat jar plus some broad spectrum pro-biotics, drink some and then mix in freshly blended leaves. Its interesting that the high meat taste is still there after many top ups with fresh mixture.

2 weeks ago after reading how onions, leaks etc could feed gut microbes, which would then send out 'alls well, we're doing great' signals to our nervous system, I made a batch of blended raw leaks inoculated with the correct microbe - it still tastes a bit strong so I've put it on the warmer to mature.

Yesterday got a jar each of diced fish & meat, inoculated with the BOD microbe, and now have it warming, so will report on that soon.

Then on the final frontier today I have started a beef yoghurt experiment by blending a cup of organic beef with a quarter cup of BOD yoghurt and placed on warming pad.

Also have been feeding the BOD yoghurt to our hens so they can spread it into the garden.

 -d


Offline Polyvore

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #202 on: August 20, 2012, 02:11:56 pm »
Thanks, I am thinking of putting it in a plastic bag and into the fridge, and just hope the smell doesn't go everywhere. For me it is starting to smell less and less bad. Every time I stir it and air it out I get a good whiff and I did not like the early stage of decomposition. As it ages and is now becoming more black and green, it smells more like the sea.

What are BOD microbes?

Offline Alive

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #203 on: August 20, 2012, 05:13:22 pm »
This is the B.O.D. strain of Bifidus (Bacillus Laterosporus) which is claimed to be effective in dealing with candida imbalances at http://www.vibrationalmedicine.com/images/Candida_Article.pdf

Offline Polyvore

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #204 on: August 20, 2012, 05:41:16 pm »
Thanks again!

There was talk a while ago about mixing things in with the high meat to see how it promoted different bacteria, and you are now talking about herb high water. I just happened to come across this today:

" Infused oils have the potential to support the growth of C. botulinum bacteria. These products may cause great harm if not made and stored properly. "

If you are to continue doing your herb high waters I would either keep them aired when storing, or simply stick to eating them fresh.

" ...conditions that favor growth of C. botulinum are met: low acid environment with pH higher than 4.6, anaerobic conditions (oil), food and moisture source (garlic), not boiled before eating. " - http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09340.html

" Putrescine (sometimes spelled putrescin or putrescene) is an organic chemical compound NH2(CH2)4NH2 (1,4-diaminobutane or butanediamine).

It is related to cadaverine; both are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms. The two compounds are largely responsible for the foul odor of putrefying flesh. The pH values I've found for putrescine range from 9.8- 10.0 so it is BASIC. That explains the change in pH. " - http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100915161351AAHrhU9

Garlic has a pH of 7.3, and as our meat rots the pH gets higher and higher, so perhaps adding a small amount of dilute citric acid may be healthy at the start of our batches? I assume later, and after much airing, the older generations of bacteria fight off botulism very well, so there is no need to add citric at the start. This is just a theory though, I am no expert. It could be that botulism grows best in a certain pH range like ph7-8, and then when it is above or below this it does not grow well. Of course the amount of airing that happens is also important, I am just going into more detail.

Offline Alive

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #205 on: August 21, 2012, 09:02:41 am »
All of my 'experiments' have plenty of available oxygen.
None are suspended in oil to prevent oxygen migration.
The blended cultures are especially high in oxygen, as the blending mixes in billions of tiny bubbles, although they also need more oxygen since they have a vast surface area due to the smaller particle size.

I would worry more about meat rapped in plastic, like in the supermarket, as then there will be no oxygen flow.

I have been wondering if unglazed crockery jars would let enough oxygen through to get the good microbes going in a high meat culture?

Offline Adora

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #206 on: August 21, 2012, 09:53:59 pm »
Hi Polyvore, I just saw your question. I'm not into maggots, but what you said is reasonable. I don't like plastic, but if you do it once for your first learning experiment, and air it out between, I understand not wanting the smell all over. Can't you just get a good jar from a second hand shop, or buy some new lids if it's a mason jar? I would eat a piece of your meat after airing 3+x/day for a day or 2 until the aroma is milder. Then 1 small chunk and see what that does. Repeat the next day with frequent airing if day one goes well.  I like a little caution with new things. Soon enough you will be an expert. I love the tought and ingenuity you and Alive are sharing here. Thanks
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Offline LePatron7

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #207 on: August 21, 2012, 11:26:30 pm »
Thanks, I am thinking of putting it in a plastic bag and into the fridge, and just hope the smell doesn't go everywhere. For me it is starting to smell less and less bad. Every time I stir it and air it out I get a good whiff and I did not like the early stage of decomposition. As it ages and is now becoming more black and green, it smells more like the sea.

What are BOD microbes?

I wouldn't use a bag. I remember reading something on the forum about dangerous microbes growing in plastic bags.
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Offline Alive

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #208 on: August 23, 2012, 02:39:38 pm »
The beef yogurt and fermented leeks went well - after 48 hours of warm fermenting they both smelled fine and tasted good together. The beef had a mild smell and light acid taste, and warm fermenting the leeks calmed them down nicely.   >D

Offline Alive

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #209 on: October 17, 2012, 09:06:46 am »
1 month ground ripened fish wrapped in leaves to make a high fish sushi roll - I really am feeling pretty happy right know after eating all of those beneficial soil bacteria :) lol






Offline LePatron7

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #210 on: October 17, 2012, 01:46:19 pm »
1 month ground ripened fish wrapped in leaves to make a high fish sushi roll - I really am feeling pretty happy right know after eating all of those beneficial soil bacteria :) lol







It looks like you basically buried the fish in dirt, right?
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Offline Alive

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #211 on: October 17, 2012, 02:24:23 pm »
@DaBoss = yes, this gutted fish was going stinky after a week in the fridge so I buried it in the vege garden for a month to mature :)

Offline LePatron7

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #212 on: October 17, 2012, 02:31:26 pm »
@DaBoss = yes, this gutted fish was going stinky after a week in the fridge so I buried it in the vege garden for a month to mature :)

Interesting. What do you do to it once you take it out of the dirt? Do you rinse it with water then eat?
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Offline Alive

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #213 on: October 17, 2012, 02:52:18 pm »
I just brushed off the big lumps of dirt and ate the small bits that stayed stuck to the fish. In the middle photo the dark spots are dirt. Wild animals eat their food off the dirt and are always ingesting it. Babies eat it to prepare their digestive and immune systems. The dirt has had lots of llama poo and kitchen scraps composted into it over the years, and is a favorite digging spot for the hens. Good natural dirt is good for you :)

Offline LePatron7

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #214 on: October 17, 2012, 02:54:35 pm »
I just brushed off the big lumps of dirt and ate the small bits that stayed stuck to the fish. In the middle photo the dark spots are dirt. Good healthy dirt is good to eat :)

Sounds interesting. You're brave lol
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

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Offline Endless

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #215 on: November 05, 2012, 01:29:14 pm »
Is there any benefit to adding a bit of liquid whey when starting a batch of high meat? Would it encourage beneficial bacteria like it does when making lactofermented vegetables?

Offline Nora

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #216 on: January 06, 2013, 06:57:26 am »
I've started making and eating high meat very recently. Since I am in a hurry for it to be ready I am making most of it (5 quart jars) at room temperature (70 degrees fahrenheit). I also have one quart jar in the fridge. The jar in the fridge is not doing much but the jars at room temperature are fermenting rather quickly. The first jar, which I started about a week ago has just now reached the point where the taste is unpleasant to me so I simply swallow a bite of tiny pieces without chewing.

My question is:
Why do so many of the directions I read recommend fermenting the meat in the fridge rather than at room temperature, when it is so much quicker at room temperature? Is the result better when it is fermented in the fridge?

I do make sure to air each jar and stir up each jar at least once every 24 hours, whether in the fridge or at room temp. I will be going away for 3.5 days next week though so I will put all of my jars in the fridge a day before I go so that they can survive without being aired while I am gone. Is it possible to go away for more than 3 or 4 days when one has high meat in the process of fermentation? What is the longest that it can stay in the fridge without being aired?

Offline jessica

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #217 on: January 06, 2013, 07:17:02 am »
just leave them open while you are gone.......they may dry out a bit

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #218 on: January 06, 2013, 08:46:54 am »
It's generally recommended by Aajonus to air the meats at least  once every 3 days for 5 minutes, when leaving it in the fridge. I found that once a day was best re aeration. 3.5 to 4 days isn't the end of the world, just air the meats fully before and after, exposing every part for several minutes each.

The reason why people prefer making "high-meat" in the fridge is that  such meat is relatively immune to flies, provided that you eat it quick once it's outside the fridge. Flies deposit their eggs on rotting meat in ingenious ways, which then develop into live, wriggling maggots, which most RVAFers are still squeamish about eating. Also, I found that leaving raw meat outside the fridge to rot  encouraged the meat to dry. Once dried, the benefits re aging stopped completely. It seems that bacteria thrive on slime.

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Offline Nora

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #219 on: January 06, 2013, 11:37:12 am »
Thanks for the information.
At this time of year I do not seem to have any flies in my house, and after reading about how ingenious flies can be about laying eggs around the lid I have been putting my closed jars of high meat in gallon zip lock bags as another layer of protection to keep any stray fly from finding the jars and accessing the lids.
Regarding the suggestion of keeping the jars open in my fridge while I am away: I feel certain that the jars would smell up my fridge and I do not want that. I guess I'll just air them out and then hope for the best while I am away.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #220 on: January 06, 2013, 05:46:25 pm »
One guy who preferred to air his "high-meat" outside used 2 plastic bin bags over the container. I just bury the plastic container in a hole in the soil.  I don't think it matters if one leaves the meat unaerated for up to a week, but it's a good idea to leave all parts of the meat well exposed to the air afterwards, say 5 minutes at least.
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Offline Nora

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #221 on: January 06, 2013, 06:42:18 pm »
So Tyler, are you saying that you leave your high meat container buried in a hole in the ground at all times between airings, instead of keeping it in the fridge or anywhere in the house?

I have not been airing my jars for 5 minutes, I've only been doing it long enough to believe that I have exchanged the air in the jar for fresh air. I take the lid off and hold my arm out while I spin around in circles with the jar facing into the flow of air to get the air current to exchange the air in the jar as quickly as possible. I think I've only been keeping the lid off for about one minute each time. I stir the meat around with a fork before I spin around and again after, and then I replace the lid.
Perhaps I need to instead open all jars at once and just sit there watching them so nothing gets into them while I leave them open for a full 5 minutes. Do you think that would be better?

My jars of meat started at the same time, (or within one day of each other) do not smell the same. It seems like different bacteria predominate in different jars. Also some of the jars build up a bit of pressure inside between airings and others do not. Does all this seem okay? This is my first time making high meat so I am not really sure if it is working correctly or not. I have been eating a bite out of the very first jar I started (a week ago) each time I air it. I am not certain if it is affecting me or not. I think I may be feeling a slight positive effect from it, unless I am imagining it because I want and expect a positive effect.

I bought a new kind of raw milk cheese today which I have never tried before. It is called Fontina. When I tasted it I thought it seemed remarkably familiar, like I recognized the flavor from somewhere. Then it dawned on me, it tastes very much like my high meat! Someone else mentioned that their high meat tasted like Gorgonzola cheese. I think it was Inger. I wonder if the same types of bacteria grow naturally in high meat as the ones that cheeses get inoculated with, or perhaps just form on their own.

I read in AV's book that one should not eat a lot of meat if they are in a "weight loss cycle". Any idea why that is? I would like to lose 20 lbs., and I also want the benefits of high meat at the same time.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #222 on: January 06, 2013, 07:06:37 pm »
So Tyler, are you saying that you leave your high meat container buried in a hole in the ground at all times between airings, instead of keeping it in the fridge or anywhere in the house?
Yes. I have no choice as in urban settings I am not allowed to put any "high-meat" in soil, and when on holiday in a rural setting I am not allowed to put any high-meat inside the house. There are just too many SAD-eaters who are scared of any potential smell.
Quote
I have not been airing my jars for 5 minutes, I've only been doing it long enough to believe that I have exchanged the air in the jar for fresh air. I take the lid off and hold my arm out while I spin around in circles with the jar facing into the flow of air to get the air current to exchange the air in the jar as quickly as possible. I think I've only been keeping the lid off for about one minute each time. I stir the meat around with a fork before I spin around and again after, and then I replace the lid.
Yeah, that seems fine. No real need to air for 5 minutes, the main thing is to refresh the air in the container and make sure that as much as possible of the meat is exposed to the air, if possible.

Quote
My jars of meat started at the same time, (or within one day of each other) do not smell the same. It seems like different bacteria predominate in different jars. Also some of the jars build up a bit of pressure inside between airings and others do not. Does all this seem okay?
Perfectly normal, it's fine.

Quote
This is my first time making high meat so I am not really sure if it is working correctly or not. I have been eating a bite out of the very first jar I started (a week ago) each time I air it. I am not certain if it is affecting me or not. I think I may be feeling a slight positive effect from it, unless I am imagining it because I want and expect a positive effect.

I bought a new kind of raw milk cheese today which I have never tried before. It is called Fontina. When I tasted it I thought it seemed remarkably familiar, like I recognized the flavor from somewhere. Then it dawned on me, it tastes very much like my high meat! Someone else mentioned that their high meat tasted like Gorgonzola cheese. I think it was Inger. I wonder if the same types of bacteria grow naturally in high meat as the ones that cheeses get inoculated with, or perhaps just form on their own.

I read in AV's book that one should not eat a lot of meat if they are in a "weight loss cycle". Any idea why that is? I would like to lose 20 lbs., and I also want the benefits of high meat at the same time.
Yes, high-meat does taste a lot like rotting cheese. Since I'm allergic to dairy, I rather like this aspect.

if you're not sure if the high-meat is affecting you, I would suggest waiting a few more days and then increasing the amounts eaten each time. Also don't expect instant effects. I never experienced an effect until the next day after I'd eaten any high-meat - no idea why.

Re weight-loss:- The benefit of "high-meat" is that the bacteria therein predigest the meat almost completely. I have done experiments where I ate high-meat only for several days at a time, and very little came out the other end. I wouldn't view it as a weight-gaining food like fresh, raw meat might be. Of course, cooked animal food consumption  causes far bigger weight-gain for various other reasons.
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Offline Nora

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #223 on: January 06, 2013, 07:13:54 pm »
Thanks for all your help Tyler  :)

Offline MarkC

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Re: High-Meat-Recipe Preparation For More Advanced RAFers
« Reply #224 on: January 07, 2013, 03:47:19 am »
I am making high meat for the first time. I have two Mason/Ball jars with diced venison in one and diced mackerel in the other. I am aerating them for about 30 seconds every day out in the garden, then they go back in my fridge. I just leave the cap off the jars for a half-minute and watch that nothing flies inside. Everything seems to be progressing fine but it's only been two weeks since I begun so I have not tasted it yet. It smells pretty good to me now. Here's the question.

QUESTION: the meat is diced into half-inch cubes. The jars are one quart/one litre, half filled with meat. Do I need to churn the chunks around so that the oxygen reaches the cubes at the bottom of the jar when I aerate. The pieces of fish at the bottom are pretty much stuck to the jar. Do I need to worry about anaerobic bacteria developing in the bits pressed up against the glass at the bottom? I could just churn it for safety but I was wondering if that's really necessary.