Author Topic: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat  (Read 14190 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« on: December 09, 2012, 11:13:16 pm »
Raw fermented honey is an animal food made by bees (like milk is an animal food made by cows; and thus vegans tend to avoid it):
Fermented raw honey
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/how-to-ferment-honey]http://www.culturesforhealth.com/how-to-ferment-honey
http://www.wildfermentation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3237

I don't often promote specific brands, but raw fermented honey is so rare and this is such a good product that this is a case where I will (no conflict of interest to report--I don't get anything from them for doing so):
Quote
Really Raw brand raw fermented honey:
"Moisture and warmth produce fermentation. When the moisture level of the honey is slightly elevated and the temperature is warm, fermentation may occur, due to the enzymes and the yeast in honey. Two main reasons for heating honey in modern times are to stop fermentation and be able to strain it. But fermentation is not harmful. Some people believe that it is more effective for digestion than honey that is not fermented, but we have not seen any documentation to either prove or disprove this theory."http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/category_s/44.htm
Quote
"honey itself can ferment, if it contains enough residual moisture and is left in a warm place--honey ferments but never spoils! Fermented honey actually expands somewhat, and develops rich flavors. It is an even better aid to digestion than regular honey." - Sally Fallon, Fermented Honey, http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/fermented-honey


Making raw mead:-   
How To Easily Make Your Own Mead


Raw fermented fish sauce, aka Worcestershire sauce (the stuff sold in supermarkets today is no longer raw fermented like the traditional recipe, unfortunately), aka garum, and raw fermented fish oil, aka liquidum:
Quote
"...in Roman times, long before refrigeration, fish guts were placed in a barrel with sea water and allowed to ferment. What came out the bottom of the barrel was a watery fermented fish sauce called garam, widely used as a seasoning (probably the precursor of Worcestershire sauce). The oil floated to the top and was collected carefully. This fermented fish oil was undoubtedly the civilized world's first health elixir, reserved for the soldiers and nobility. It is said that the soldiers refused to march without their daily ration of liquidum." http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-oil/update-on-cod-liver-oil-manufacture
Garum (raw fermented fish sauce)--"the supreme condiment":
Quote
"Garum, or Roman garum, was a popular Roman fermented fish sauce that was used extensively in Ancient Roman cooking. The sauce was often referred to as the 'supreme condiment' and was one of the most essential flavoring agents. The sauce was named after Garos or Garon, the fish whose intestines were used originally to make the condiment. As time progressed, intestines of other, more readily available fish like tuna, eel and mackerel were used to make the sauce.
 
It is largely believed that the original Roman garum was not a pleasant sauce. Records indicate that even to Romans who loved the condiment, the smell of fermenting garos was very foul. It is, however, noteworthy that despite the foul odor, the sauce was a part of almost every preparation, either as an ingredient or as an accompaniment."
http://www.ifood.tv/network/garum

More traditional raw fermented fish sauces: Bplaa Raa (Thai), prahok (Cambodian) and padek (Lao) - "Bplaa Raa A Sublime Stench," http://eatingasia.typepad.com/eatingasia/2006/08/a_sublime_stenc.html

Raw fermented cod liver oil
There's only one brand that I know of (Green Pasture's Blue Ice raw fermented CLO), but there are multiple sources listed at "Cod Liver Oil Basics and Recommendations" by Sally Fallon and Mary G. Enig, PhD, http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-oil/cod-liver-oil-basics

Raw fermented fish and sea mammal (stinkfish, surströmming, stink flipper, stink heads, ...):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinkheads#Stinkheads describes the following raw fermented fish and sea mammal foods:
Bagoong (Philippines)
Fesikh (Egypt)
Garum (Ancient Rome)
Hakarl (Iceland)
Hongeohoe (Korea)
Igunaq (Inuit)
Kusaya (Japan)
Lakerda (Turkey)
Ngari (Manipur, India)
Pla ra (Thailand)
Rakfisk (Norway)
Surströmming (Sweden)
Tepa (Yup'ik Eskimo)

In Iqaluich Nigiñaqtuat (Fish That We Eat http://alaska.fws.gov/asm/pdf/fisheries/reports/02-023final.pdf), Anore Jones writes how some Inuit ferment their fish in cold ground or in wooden casks kept in cool areas, with salt added.

Vilhjalmur Stefansson on Eskimo fermented fish in The Fat of the Land:
Quote
In many districts fish were caught throughout the summer in larger quantities than could be consumed. There were two methods of preservation.

I saw a typical instance of one method during my first year in the North. Fish, ranging from one to three or four pounds in weight, were caught in great numbers. They were immediately slit and the entrails removed, and were then piled in long windrows just back from the sea beach, and covered with piles of driftwood for protection from dogs and wolves. If there had been June fishing at this place, the fish would have been nearly liquid by fall. Late July catches grew so rotten that a fish might fall to pieces if you tried to handle it. The August catch was pretty high; but toward the end of September there was so much frost at night and so little thaw during the day that putrefaction ceased.

Decayed fish were not eaten during the warm weather; they were not considered good until frozen. As soon as the freeze-up came, they began to be used as delicacies, some- times as whole meals. The only way of serving decayed fish was to allow them to thaw in the house until they were as soft as hard ice cream, when they were eaten somewhat as a child would consume an ice cream cone. The taste is similar to that of our strong cheeses. The attitude of the Mackenzie Eskimos toward decayed fish was about that of our fashion- able diners toward Camembert or Limburger.

When fish are caught rapidly there is nothing to do but pile them in windrows. But if the catch is slower, the few not eaten are likely to be split and hung up to dry. Com- monly, the backbone is removed and used for dog feed, either then or later-indeed, fish bones, no matter what the condition of the fish or the method of eating, are mainly dog feed.

The mentioned second Eskimo way of preserving fish is wind-drying. This is seldom carried to such an extent that the flesh becomes as hard as in Scandinavian practice. Usually an Eskimo dried fish is about as soft as our salted cod. When they get to that hardness they are taken down, piled, and covered from rain by water-shedding skins.

There are pickled herring instructions in The Whole Beast: Nose to Tail Eating, by Fergus Henderson, http://www.westonaprice.org/thumbs-up-book-reviews/411-whole-beast?qh=YToxOntpOjA7czoxNToicGlja2xlZCBoZXJyaW5nIjt9

Here is a whey-fermented fish recipe: http://www.sustainableeats.com/tag/lacto-fermented-food-recipes/

Surströmming - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SurströmmingShareSurströmming

How to Make Surstromming - eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_2070108_make-surstromming.html#ixzz26ipGEMzz

Icelandic raw fermented meats/fish:
lundabaggar: raw fermented lamb
hrutspungar: raw fermented ram’s testicles
hákarl: raw fermented and dried shark
(See Fermented Icelandic Sheep,  http://factoidz.com/fermented-icelandic-sheep)

Raw fermented sausage and other traditionally cured or fresh sausage-style meats:

Quote
Salami
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami
Though completely uncooked, [traditional] salami are not "raw" per se; they have been prepared via curing. The term salame cotto refers to salami cooked or smoked before or after curing and it is typical of Piedmont region in Italy. This is done to impart a specific flavor but not to cook the meat. Before curing, a cotto salame is still considered raw and is not ready to be eaten.

Traditional sausage/salami recipes using no preservatives and no smoking or high heat are available at http://honest-food.net/cured-meat/ (thanks to razmatazz)

=============
Some of the following are technically not considered "Paleo":

Fermented raw dairy
For raw primal (Aajonus Vonderplanitz style), raw Weston Price, and raw Primal Blueprint (Mark Sisson style) dieters

Raw (just warmed) yogurt:

Tips from Seth Roberts:
Quote
"Now I just take the milk from the refrigerator, put in a tiny amount of culture, surround the milk with hot water (using a Chinese yogurt-making machine that keeps the water warm), and wait. So much easier. The final product is better (smoother, thicker) than the old hard way, especially when I learned that tiny amounts of culture work better than large amounts. “In my experience, cultures from commercial yogurts never maintain their viability beyond a few generations,” Katz writes. My experience is different: I’ve never had a problem using them."

- Seth Roberts, from a review of The Art of Fermentation by Sandor Katz
http://blog.sethroberts.net/2012/06/23/the-art-of-fermentation/

Casu marzu (which translates to "rotten cheese"--Sardinian fermented cheese with live maggot larvae), gravlax (Norwegian raw fermented salmon) and hákarl - You Eat That? By RACHEL HERZ, JANUARY 28, 2012,
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204661604577186843056231170.html?mod=WSJ_hp_editorsPicks_4#articleTabs%3Darticle (natto and chicha are also covered)


>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Inger

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2012, 11:23:06 pm »
Ha ha.. according to our modern world, to eat this must have made you drop dead..lol
Amazing. They certainly were  not afraid of bacteria back then! OMG reading your post Phil, makes me lose the rest of "concerns" I have about this issue..

Offline letsdoiteczema

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2012, 03:45:24 pm »
Great info PaleoPhil, thanks.

I have tried adding water to Really Raw brand raw honey bought from iHerb.

After a couple weeks, there is a strong alcohol smell and just drinking a little sip burns my  throat... hm...is this good or bad?

is it the good probiotics burning my throat? (like how too much high meat sightly burns throat as well?)
Wishing everyone the best in health and happiness! much love to all!

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2012, 06:53:13 am »
Great info PaleoPhil, thanks.
You're welcome.

Quote
I have tried adding water to Really Raw brand raw honey bought from iHerb.

After a couple weeks, there is a strong alcohol smell and just drinking a little sip burns my  throat... hm...is this good or bad?

is it the good probiotics burning my throat? (like how too much high meat sightly burns throat as well?)
Mead doesn't burn my throat or smell strong to me and adding water to Really Raw fermented and regular honey didn't work at all for me--even adding yeast that the home-brewing store recommended for mead didn't work very well and I lost interest (at least for the near future)--so I don't know, sorry. I do get some throat itchiness from a small minority of raw honeys, and most heated honeys, but have never gotten it from the Really Raw brand. Speaking of which, I gave a jar of the fermented honey to my parents and my mother said it's the only honey she has tried that doesn't give her throat itchiness.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2012, 07:27:44 am »
Do all fermented honeys have alcohol? Is it a really small amount, that's negligible?
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2012, 07:49:15 am »
The Really Raw Honey people say there's negligible to no alcohol in their fermented honey (and when I tested the honey with brewing equipment it did not register as containing significant alcohol, though my equipment is not very sensitive). Not all fermented foods contain alcohol. Most people understand this when it comes to yogurt and sauerkraut, but many get confused when it comes to fermented honey. Even the person working at the local home brewing equipment store didn't understand it until after I explained it for about ten minutes, and even then she didn't seem fully convinced.

In many states it's illegal to sell a honey or any other food that contains a significant amount of alcohol without a license to sell alcohol and labeling of it as alcoholic. Some states even completely outlaw alcohol in candy and other children's foods. Thus, the odds are small that a product made in the USA that doesn't say it contains alcohol would, though occasionally some ignorant small company or entrepreneur sells a candy or cake or something else that children might eat that contains 2-3% or so alcohol in a state that has strict laws and gets fined for it.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2012, 08:23:22 am »
Interesting, well I just poured some distilled water into what's left of my raw honey. I noticed little tiny bubbles. Tomorrow I'll stick it in my car in the hot Florida sun since they say heat makes it ferment.

Next check I'll be adding pickles or sauerkraut.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

Med free since 03/21/2014

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2012, 09:30:04 am »
This is the only instruction I've seen on making raw mead:

How To Easily Make Your Own Mead

I didn't have good luck with it, though.

Since raw mead is raw and since evidence suggests that humans and other primates have been consuming alcohol for millions of years, raw mead would presumably qualify as raw Paleo.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2012, 11:41:22 pm »
Would it work without adding yeast to it? I've read online that you just need to add clean/chlorine free water, and stick it somewhere warm. I remember reading Thoth just added water and it started fermenting in the fridge.

is there the possibility of making raw paleo alcoholic beverages with honey and water?
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

Med free since 03/21/2014

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2012, 10:35:37 am »
Would it work without adding yeast to it?
In the wild, I know it must be so, else how did fermented foods ever become so crucial to begin with, yet, even with adding yeast I failed at my attempt, so I can't direct you, sorry. Nature is complex and fickle, god luv her.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2012, 04:34:18 pm »
Would it work without adding yeast to it?
There are yeasts almost everywhere in nature, just like bacteria. Grape juice ferments without adding yeast because there's yeasts on the grapes' skin. Wash them with chlorinated water and the juice won't ferment so easily because new yeasts have to come from the environment.

In the normalized wine making process, all the natural and various yeasts are killed by adding sulfuric acid H2SO3 (H2O + SO2) to the grape must, which is then seeded with a selected and specific kind of yeast. Thus the fermentation process is controlled and the oenologists know exactly what they'll get.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline hassafras

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2013, 09:05:29 am »
This is the only instruction I've seen on making raw mead:

How To Easily Make Your Own Mead
I didn't have good luck with it, though.

Since raw mead is raw and since evidence suggests that humans and other primates have been consuming alcohol for millions of years, raw mead would presumably qualify as raw Paleo.


Hey Phil, have you tried brewing a mead since? I'm completely fascinated with the idea of creating my own tonics as of late. The sheer number of meads one can make with various herbs and fruits is really quite interesting and could even potentially yield benefits when consumed in small amounts with my meals. Though I know most probably won't agree with that hehe. Not that I'm saying it definitely would, but I'm very excited to experiment with it at some point. But quite frankly, I honestly can't see it being negative when used sparingly. Surely enough I will find out  ;D.

I probably would have removed the thought from my mind had I not discovered that all honey does not affect me in the same way. I experienced some absolutely dismal results when consuming a local 'raw' honey which I'm sure was heated. Most sugars and fruits tend to make me quite anxious and I was wanting to see if raw honey did the same. But I didn't give up and decided to try Really Raw Honey. I've tried it in the past, but never of any quantity greater than a couple tablespoons. I managed to eat 2lbs 10oz in 3 days with no side effects even on an empty stomach at times... Truly wild. The previous honey was incapacitating me in far smaller doses. But I shall continue on with my vlc trial for some time before potentially incorporating honey and or mead into my diet. I may have to try the fermented RRH at some point as well.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2013, 11:22:12 pm »
Hey Phil, have you tried brewing a mead since?
Nah, I noticed that even the best mead I've found (which was much better than my own attempt) causes some minor issues for me and it's too difficult to control my intake of it. My alcohol and sugar tolerance seems too low to mess with it other than perhaps occasionally. Given my mead making experiment and experience with store-bought raw kombucha, I doubt that a raw mead would be that much better for me, though I wouldn't rule it out.

It is fascinating though, that one particular brand of mead produces much less negative symptoms for me than any other alcoholic beverage I've tried, including other meads and real ales (cask ales). All alcoholic beverages are definitely not the same and even all meads are not the same.

It's also fascinating that all unfermented raw honeys do a number on me, but fermented raw honey does not (other than BG spiking when consuming more than small amounts).

I would check your blood sugar 1 hour and 2 hours after eating the honey at various intakes. Even though I ate a whole pound of Really Raw fermented honey once out of curiosity without noticeable symptoms other than a bit of dental scum the next morning, I found that it doesn't take much to spike my BG rather high and sometimes stay spiked beyond 2 hours. Why it doesn't give me any serious negative symptoms, I don't know, but I doubt it's a good idea to spike my BG so high.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline lena

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2014, 01:07:38 pm »
Does anyone eat red boat fish sauce?

I think it's more like the "garum" that you described but it actually tastes good to me, very salty and umami flavor but definitely a little fermented tasting.

the only ingredients are anchovies and sea salt and they say it is fermented for over a year and raw (dont know how accurate the raw claim is though). I've been eating a bit of it since i think i need salt and i think it might have good probiotics/nutrients, but would just grey/celtic sea salt be better?

Offline eveheart

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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2014, 11:45:38 am »
Does anyone eat red boat fish sauce?

I use that Vietnamese fish sauce or cheaper Three Crabs Fish Sauce (Thailand) as a minor ingredient in kimchi. A lot of women in my area make their own fish sauce because they don't believe claims of purity of commercial brands. I don't use that much, so I just try to get what looks like a good brand. Of course, if you made your own, you'd have control over the salt... and then you'd have to source your fish just as carefully.
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Re: Fermented Raw Animal Foods - More Than Just High Meat
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 02:37:52 am »
I love this post oh so very much! I've been wanting to start making more fermented animal products. This gives me a great place to start. I've been wanting to make fish sauce for aaaaggggeeesssss