Author Topic: Avidin in raw eggs one more time  (Read 11860 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline masterducky

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« on: July 02, 2011, 12:55:17 pm »
Ok, i went through all the threads on raw eggs but not one talks about what happens to avidin itself.

To sum up for those who new to this topic: avidin is a protein in egg white that binds to biotin(vitamin B7, wikipedia)
causing biotin deficiency.

On the internet you can find two opinions:
1. there are much more biotin in the yolk than avidin in the white = no biotin deficiency
2. there are much less  biotin in the yolk than avidin in the white = biotin deficiency.

Avidin is a protein and proteins start to break down in the stomach.
Now i suppose that when they say its binding to biotin they mean its binding to the biotin in the stomach and
not all the biotin in your body.
Because once its broken down it wont bind anymore.

So in worst case scenario you could just eat yolks first and wait till they are digested and then eat the egg whites or
the other way around.

What do you think?



Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,656
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2011, 01:08:09 pm »
It's claimed that as long as one eats the egg yolks one doesn't get the biotin deficiency. So far, only a very few who've eaten only raw egg-whites have died therefrom and then only from consuming excessive amounts.
“Sexual morality — as society in its extreme form, the American, defines it — is contemptible. I advocate an incomparably freer sexual life.”---Sigmund Freud(here, clearly promoting more dubious, sexual practices which should be illegal).

"If only Americans knew, we are bringing them the plague!" ---Sigmund Freud, said to Carl Jung on Freud's trip to America, referring to Freud's nonsensical theories.

Offline masterducky

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2011, 02:23:10 pm »
Yes its probably not that bad, i know that there are a lot of folks consuming raw, yolk and white in the same time, for years without
any drawbacks.

I was just thinking about to take full benefit of the yolk.

Lets suppose you eat the whole egg and all the biotin gets binded to the avidin,
the avidin then still should be broken down and free the biotin, shouldnt it.

Or maybe im mistaken.

Im hoping for someone with more chemical-nutritional knowledge to chime in. :)





Offline p0wer

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2011, 03:27:29 pm »
I guess it either goes out the other end or it changes the structure of the biotin molecule.

Raw egg whites seem to inhibit trypsin too, thus reducing protein digestibility :(

Digestibility of protein in raw eggs seems to be a lot less than cooked eggs
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/10/1716.short

This pretty much confirms the above, 35% of the protein simply goes on to putrefy in the colon (whereas it's only 5% for cooked eggs)
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/277/5/G935.abstract

Offline HIT_it_RAW

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 03:43:54 pm »
despite the research you present i find that very hard to believe. I can imagine that someone eating only cooked food and than a few raw eggs wont absorb all of the protein due to wrong gut flora and wrong balance in the digestive juices. The research is off course done with non raw foodist. imo a raw foodist will absorb all the nutrients.

the first research used egg whites only. without the yolk all sorts off thing may happen. Test the whole thing in someone used to eating raw!

I'm always puzzled by the reductionistic thinking when it comes to eggs. Most here seem to have a whoilistic view on nutrition, think we should eat all of an animal, all of the fruit, drink whole milk etc An egg is a whole nutritional unit. Chicks aren't born with b7 def. To me eggs are balanced food, very easy to digest, give instant energy and greatly help recovery from exercise.
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline Iguana

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,501
  • Country: pt
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 05:27:32 pm »
I'm always puzzled by the reductionistic thinking when it comes to eggs.
Exactly,  me too - and about nutrition in general.

Life on Earth evolved to very complex forms without any kind of analytic knowledge, wild animals have a perfect health without knowing about avidin and biotin, the health of our ancestors in the paleoithic era was much better than ours and they didn't know about avidin and biotin neither!

A most essential point is that the eggs must come from birds having a sufficient natural area to feed themselves without any access to heated and processed food nor wheat or other modern garbage. I suppose those criterion were not filled in the researches cited - just as usual.   

Another point is that the eggs white and yolks must be eaten separately, one after each other in the mouth in such a way to allow a perfect instinctive regulation of the amount eaten for each. Everyone's  condition being different at any given moment, it may be that someone may currently need yolks only while somebody else needs both yolks and whites.   

Offline p0wer

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 06:59:21 pm »
despite the research you present i find that very hard to believe. I can imagine that someone eating only cooked food and than a few raw eggs wont absorb all of the protein due to wrong gut flora and wrong balance in the digestive juices. The research is off course done with non raw foodist. imo a raw foodist will absorb all the nutrients.

True that, someone who's not used to raw foods might have harder time digesting it.

I see eggs as analogous to seeds. The egg white is there to mainly protect the yolk. The avidin actually binds to bacteria too, like Salmonella for example (I don't know how are people afraid of bacteria in raw eggs..). Seeds usually have the outer part full of anti-nutrients (e.g. unpolished vs white polished rice), it's same thing with eggs. I don't know if it's reductionist or whatever, but this is what makes most sense to me regarding eggs.

I still eat the whites anyway, I don't like throwing food, but always eat them separately usually yolks in the evening whites in the morning.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,656
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2011, 07:07:11 pm »

Digestibility of protein in raw eggs seems to be a lot less than cooked eggs
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/10/1716.short

This pretty much confirms the above, 35% of the protein simply goes on to putrefy in the colon (whereas it's only 5% for cooked eggs)
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/277/5/G935.abstract
I could only ever find that one study, which makes me doubt its validity. Real evidence gets backed up by dozens of studies.
“Sexual morality — as society in its extreme form, the American, defines it — is contemptible. I advocate an incomparably freer sexual life.”---Sigmund Freud(here, clearly promoting more dubious, sexual practices which should be illegal).

"If only Americans knew, we are bringing them the plague!" ---Sigmund Freud, said to Carl Jung on Freud's trip to America, referring to Freud's nonsensical theories.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,759
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2011, 07:45:25 pm »
This pretty much confirms the above, 35% of the protein simply goes on to putrefy in the colon (whereas it's only 5% for cooked eggs)
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/277/5/G935.abstract
Where does it say putrefy in that article? The only claims I've seen about eggs and meats putrefying in the colon have been urban legends promoted by vegetarians.

Quote from: HIT_it_RAW on Today at 02:43:54 am
I'm always puzzled by the reductionistic thinking when it comes to eggs.
Exactly,  me too - and about nutrition in general.
Here, here.

Quote
Another point is that the eggs white and yolks must be eaten separately, one after each other in the mouth in such a way to allow a perfect instinctive regulation of the amount eaten for each. Everyone's  condition being different at any given moment, it may be that someone may currently need yolks only while somebody else needs both yolks and whites.    
There do seem to be different needs, as I don't find it necessary to eat the yolk and whites separately one after another.
"Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong." - Tatertot Tim Steele
Notes I may point to in discussions:
1) WARNING: be skeptical of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other prebiotics
2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail
3) YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance.
4) When I report health results, it doesn't mean I think they apply to anyone else. I

Offline p0wer

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 07:58:24 pm »
Protein + bacteria/fungi = putrefaction
Undigested protein in anaerobic place full of microorganisms according to you won't lead to putrefaction?

Offline HIT_it_RAW

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 08:08:48 pm »
Protein + bacteria/fungi = putrefaction
Undigested protein in anaerobic place full of microorganisms according to you won't lead to putrefaction?
Why would you assume the protein is undigested? In cooked food i can imagine a very large part not being digested but raw meat leaves hardly anything to be excreted(in me anyway). That why on cooked meat most people (including me) have bad smelling gas and stools. Not so on raw.
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline p0wer

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2011, 08:22:08 pm »
We were talking about the egg whites here, whether cooked or uncooked obviously they lead to some undigested protein ending up in the colon.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,759
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2011, 08:41:59 pm »
Protein + bacteria/fungi = putrefaction
Undigested protein in anaerobic place full of microorganisms according to you won't lead to putrefaction?
In other words, the answer to my question is that your source doesn't mention putrefaction--that's your own added commentary.
"Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong." - Tatertot Tim Steele
Notes I may point to in discussions:
1) WARNING: be skeptical of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other prebiotics
2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail
3) YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance.
4) When I report health results, it doesn't mean I think they apply to anyone else. I

Offline p0wer

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2011, 08:46:10 pm »
In other words, the answer to my question is that your source doesn't mention putrefaction--that's your own added commentary.

A yes, that's my conclusion :)

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,759
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2011, 08:46:55 pm »
If you've read all the threads on eggs then you've read the many posts that mentioned that the level of avidin in eggs is reduced in fertilized eggs. No need for cooking them that I see. Where is the evidence of actual harm from consuming even unfertilized WHOLE eggs raw?
"Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong." - Tatertot Tim Steele
Notes I may point to in discussions:
1) WARNING: be skeptical of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other prebiotics
2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail
3) YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance.
4) When I report health results, it doesn't mean I think they apply to anyone else. I

Offline p0wer

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2011, 08:53:36 pm »
The protein digestion problem is caused by ovomucoid in the egg white, not avidin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypsin_inhibitor

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,759
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2011, 09:11:24 pm »
I was merely responding to your original point re: avidin. You didn't mention ovomucoid originally and you still haven't provided evidence of any harm from consuming whole raw eggs, much less whole raw fertilized eggs from local pastured free range hens.
"Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong." - Tatertot Tim Steele
Notes I may point to in discussions:
1) WARNING: be skeptical of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other prebiotics
2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail
3) YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance.
4) When I report health results, it doesn't mean I think they apply to anyone else. I

Offline p0wer

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2011, 09:24:07 pm »
Ae we can go on like this forever. Those are the facts, that's the logic, how you interpret it is up to you. Probably there's no study that addresses your condition exactly.
I eat egg whites too, but unlike most people here I accept that they are not the best thing to be eaten raw (or cooked for that matter).

Offline MoonStalkeR

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2011, 09:26:43 pm »
If I ate cooked eggs (e.g scrambled) I would get sharp stomach pains. Raw eggs gave no such effect, and I consumed up to 10-20 a day with benefits.

The processed egg protein powder companies seem to always endorse the notions of avidin, salmonella, etc.

Offline p0wer

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2011, 09:30:05 pm »
The processed egg protein powder companies seem to always endorse the notions of avidin, salmonella, etc.

What they don't say is that heat doesn't do that much to avidin anyway, in any cooked egg there's still avidin activity of up to 70-80% of the original activity in raw egg.

Offline Iguana

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,501
  • Country: pt
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating tuna fish
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2011, 10:14:48 pm »
There do seem to be different needs, as I don't find it necessary to eat the yolk and whites separately one after another.
If you're sure that you need both yolks and whites, then you don't need to eat them separately one after the other. But how can you make it sure if you always eat both mixed at once?

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,759
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2011, 10:20:22 pm »
Ae we can go on like this forever. Those are the facts, that's the logic, how you interpret it is up to you. Probably there's no study that addresses your condition exactly.
If there's no study showing that raw whole fertile eggs cause health damage and if you cannot provide any study supporting your claim that egg and meat protein putrefy in the colon, then those are not the facts regarding real health problems, but instead are unsupported claims.

The evidence reveals that the claims of masses of meat rotting and putrefying in the colon are "in a word, crap" to quote Snopes:

Does Meat Rot In Your Colon? No. What Does? Beans, Grains, and Vegetables!
http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/

Meat Your Maker
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/gruesome/fecalcolon.asp

In my experience, raw fertile eggs have been one of my most beneficial foods (I'm not claiming that necessarily applies to anyone else, as my signature indicates), and Aajonus and his clients and other people report the same:

The Health Benefits of Raw Eggs - A Life Building Food
Thursday, February 07, 2008 by: Rami Nagel
http://www.naturalnews.com/022607.html#ixzz1QrTcVDKe

The Health Benefits of Raw Eggs
By John Claydon D. Hom
http://www.regenerativenutrition.com/content.asp?id=268

There are even claims of problems from cooking egg whites:

What Are the Health Benefits of Raw Organic Egg Whites?
http://www.livestrong.com/article/410642-what-are-the-health-benefits-of-raw-organic-egg-whites/#ixzz1QrVcHPCb

Quote
I eat egg whites too, but unlike most people here I accept that they are not the best thing to be eaten raw (or cooked for that matter).
I didn't make broad positive health claims regarding raw egg whites, I just questioned your negative claims about avidin being a problem that requires cooking and egg protein putrefying in the colon. When presented with an alternative solution of high quality fertile eggs you failed to even acknowledge it, much less refute it or consider it. Why? Aren't you interested at all in the raw option? If you want to cook your egg whites, go ahead, but don't expect us to believe that raw whole fertile eggs are a health problem unless the whites are cooked or that raw egg whites putrefy in the colon without supporting evidence. I'm open to the possibility and I prefer egg yolks to whites, whether raw or cooked, but I require evidence to buy your claims. You're the one making the claims, so you are the one who needs to support those claims if you expect anyone to believe them. Rehashing of vegetarian myths is not evidence.


If you're sure that you need both yolks and whites,
I didn't say that, I only said that I'm don't find that I need to eat them separately.

Quote
But how can you make it sure if you always eat both mixed at once?
I don't always, why do you assume that I do? I just don't find that I need to and I don't notice any differences. I accept your word that you do need to do it and I'm not arguing that you don't.
"Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong." - Tatertot Tim Steele
Notes I may point to in discussions:
1) WARNING: be skeptical of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other prebiotics
2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail
3) YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance.
4) When I report health results, it doesn't mean I think they apply to anyone else. I

Offline p0wer

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2011, 10:21:49 pm »
How much avidin is there in fertilized eggs from pastured chicken? I couldn't find some data.

According to wiki on average there's 1.8mg = 1800mcg avidin (doesn't say whether the eggs are as above). Biotin content is around 10-20mcg. I'd assume avidin content will need to be around or less than biotin so that some biotin remains available. That's a lot less and highly unlikely to happen no matter fertilized or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotin#Deficiency

Quote
Biotin deficiency is relatively rare and mild, and can be addressed with supplementation. Such deficiency can be caused by the consumption of raw egg whites (eating two or more uncooked egg whites daily for several months has caused biotin deficiency that is serious enough to produce symptoms [1]), which contain high levels of the protein avidin, which binds biotin strongly.
...


To answer the original question of this thread, avidin+biotin basically goes out the other end :) The harsh conditions required to break that bond definitely won't happen in the body. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avidin

Quote
In chicken egg white, avidin makes up approximately 0.05% of total protein (approximately 1.8 mg per egg). The tetrameric protein contains four identical subunits (homotetramer), each of which can bind to biotin (Vitamin B7, vitamin H) with a high degree of affinity and specificity. The dissociation constant of avidin is measured to be KD ? 10?15 M, making it one of the strongest known non-covalent bonds[1].

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,759
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2011, 10:25:41 pm »
I'd assume avidin content will need to be around or less than biotin so that some biotin remains available.
or else what happens? Again, where's the evidence of harm? As was already pointed out to you, reductionist theory doesn't prove real world harm.
"Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong." - Tatertot Tim Steele
Notes I may point to in discussions:
1) WARNING: be skeptical of chronic very low carb diets, especially ones low in resistant starch and other prebiotics
2) I try to do what works best for me, and often fail
3) YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. The only fact I know for certain is that of my ignorance.
4) When I report health results, it doesn't mean I think they apply to anyone else. I

Offline p0wer

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
    • View Profile
Re: Avidin in raw eggs one more time
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2011, 10:32:39 pm »
Does Meat Rot In Your Colon? No. What Does? Beans, Grains, and Vegetables!
http://www.gnolls.org/1444/does-meat-rot-in-your-colon-no-what-does-beans-grains-and-vegetables/


Did you notice in that article

Quote
trypsin and chymotrypsin break down proteins;


and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trypsin_inhibitor saying that ovomucoid in egg whites inhibits trypsin? This is not enough evidence that some protein may not be broken down and thus not properly digested in the small intestine?