Author Topic: High vs. Fermented Meat  (Read 5906 times)

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Offline Fermenter Zym

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High vs. Fermented Meat
« on: February 21, 2011, 02:35:18 am »
Are high-meat and fermented meat the same thing?



Offline Josh

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2011, 02:55:23 am »
Fermented meat like chorizo, they add sugar. I think fermentation basically needs carbs to allow yeast to grow.

Whereas high meat is bacteria that normally break down meat.

I think.

Offline donrad

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2011, 04:23:33 am »
If it smells good it is OK If it stinks bury it in the garden.

Dry aged meat is pre digested and beneficial. If it smells good. Your nose knows.

Naturally, Don

Offline Josh

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2011, 04:43:14 am »
Hold on. High meat stinks, to the newbie at least and lots of people experience benefits. Do you think it's bad?

And fermented sausages are not just dry aged, they have added ingredients.

Offline kurite

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2011, 05:06:48 am »
High meat can't be fermented. Fermenting is when yeast and bacteria break down sugar into alcohol. It might be possible with liver but there isn't even a full gram of sugar in pound of muscle meat so its not going to happen unless you add something to it.
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Online TylerDurden

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2011, 06:28:47 am »
Hold on. High meat stinks, to the newbie at least and lots of people experience benefits. Do you think it's bad?
  Donrad is under the delusion that "high-meat" is a deadly poison, despite numerous  RVAFers stating that "high-meat" has helped them recover their health.
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Offline Josh

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2011, 06:32:46 am »
Doesn't make sense as good beef is aged for 20 days anyway, and I've eaten it when it starts to get stinky before and got elevated mood.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2011, 09:16:09 am »
High meat is naturally fermented meat. You don't need to add yeast to ferment, else why would sauerkraut with no added yeast be called fermented? Really Raw sells honey that is fermented without added yeast: http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RRH&Category_Code=FRRH. Adding yeast is a shortcut that's not required.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
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Offline Fermenter Zym

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2011, 09:47:39 am »
Lactobacilli bacteria also play a very important role in fermentation, it isn't only yeast. I, however, do not know how prevalent these bacteria are on flesh. I would assume they are because I remember hearing that lactobacilli live on all living things. As far as I know though, they propagate through eating starches, not protein or fat.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 09:53:27 am »
Well some bacteria seem to be living well enough on the protein of the lean steak I made fermented high meat out of. They've got it down nearly to liquid at this point, about a year and a half later.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Fermenter Zym

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 10:03:29 am »
Well some bacteria seem to be living well enough on the protein of the lean steak I made fermented high meat out of. They've got it down nearly to liquid at this point, about a year and a half later.

Oh yeah no question bacteria are playing a role. I'm just curious as to what strains they are and if this is in fact considered fermented meat. I would say yes.

Offline miles

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 12:14:29 pm »
High meat is naturally fermented meat. You don't need to add yeast to ferment, else why would sauerkraut with no added yeast be called fermented? Really Raw sells honey that is fermented without added yeast: http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RRH&Category_Code=FRRH. Adding yeast is a shortcut that's not required.


Eh? I thought meat putrefies... That's why they're saying you need to add yeast/sugar to ferment. Saurkraut is from plant not meat, so it ferments..
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 08:40:22 pm »
Yes, bacterially-fermented foods, including meats, are considered fermented, not just yeast-fermented foods. Fermented fish, called "stink fish" by the Inuit, is still eaten fairly commonly around the world. I remember reading in an old book that an Inuit asked a European man why Europeans eat "stink cheese" but not "stink fish".

Stink Fish

"The [Inuit] elders liked stinkfish, fish buried in seal bags or cans in the tundra and left to ferment. And fermented seal flipper [called "stinkflipper"], they liked that too.” http://discovermagazine.com/2004/oct/inuit-paradox [Note: stinkflipper can also be made with walrus flipper.]

"Stink Fish, Inuit dish, of dried fish, underground, until nice & ripe then eaten for later consumption, also done with fish heads." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_cuisine

Medicine Men Go Wild (Drs. Chris and Xand Van Tulleken)
Episode 3 Healthiest Hearts 20 July 2008
http://www.medicinechest.info/episodes/3
These twin British doctors start with a negative attitude toward hunting walruses and whales and eating fermented raw flesh, but their views change somewhat over the course of the program. The Chukchi tribe they study in this program eat mostly raw fermented whale and walrus (they cook the walrus organs) and "report no incidence of heart disease."

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Marine & freshwater products handbook By Roy E. Martin

p. 408: Fermented fishery products in Africa, particularly Ghana, are called monone, and Akon word that literally means stinking. Watts (1965) described "stink" fish of Sierra Leone, which developed a strong odor within 24 hours of capture; they were salted for about four days and then dried. Watanabe (1982) described the fermented fishery products of Senegal as highly salted and semi-dried with an obvoxious odor and a cheesy flavor [likely that of fermented cheese]. ....

Essuman described and characterized a variety of fermented fish products produced and consumed in Africa in a 1992 FAO Fisheries Technical paper. The commonly-practiced fish preservation techniques identified in this report are produced by: fermentation with salting and drying (momone, kato, tambadiang); fermentation and drying without salting (ndagala, dagaa, kejeick, salanga, yeet); or fermentation with salting but without drying (terkeen, fessiekh).

....

Yeet is a fermented product made from sea snails. The flesh is removed from the shell, separated from the viscera, and split into two to four parts. It is then placed in fermentation tanks, jute bags, or sacks and allowed to ferment for two to four days before being washed and dried on raised platforms for two to four days. It is a semi-dry, light-brown product with a strong smell.

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Putrefaction is a different process than aerobic bacterial fermentation. Putrefaction involves mostly anaerobic bacteria and if the anaerobic bacteria include an overload of claustridium botulinum, it can cause botulism when eaten. Putrefaction, as commonly understood, is basically a bad form of meat rotting, whereas aerobic fermentation is a good form of meat rotting.

Putrefaction is the decomposition of animal proteins, especially by anaerobic microorganisms (and some recognize ONLY anaerobic decomposition as putrefaction - http://www.jbc.org/content/13/3/341.full.pdf), described as putrefying bacteria. Vegan fanatics loosely use the term putrefaction for all decomposition of meats, which is misleading given the common association of putrefaction with anaerobic decomposition. Decomposition is a more general process. Putrefaction usually results in amines such as putrescine and cadaverine, which have a putrid odor. Material that is subject to putrefaction is called putrescible. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putrefaction)

Vegan/vegetarian fanatics spread disinformation on the Internet about all meat being putrefied and further putrefying in your gut. Don't believe their hype. They have an agenda that involves a bias against all meat eating for "ethical" or religious reasons. Instead, read all you can about traditional indigenous peoples and also check out Aajonus Vonderplanitz's writings, lectures and interviews. Traditional Arctic and African peoples intentionally rot their foods, but they try to avoid putrefaction (anaerobic decomposition).

Botulism was reportedly not a big problem in the Arctic, despite the fermenting of meats and fish, until the introduction of modern plastic, metal and glass containers:

"Hi, I live in Alaska and have had the opportunity to sample many of the buried fermentations of assorted seafoods. ... The botulism started cropping up all over Alaska when plastic buckets replaced the more natural liners for underground fermentation. Education has reduced that factor somewhat, put it is still happening." --From: "Eva family", Microbial_Nutrition Yahoo group, Monday, April 07, 2008 11:19 PM, Subject: Re: [MN] Meat Fermentation

"Botulism has always been of concern everywhere, especially in canned or fermented foods. However, it turns out that in this area, using plastic has caused most of the problems and that traditionally processed foods that are done properly, without plastic, do not generally produce the botulism toxin and are considered safe to eat." --Anore Jones, Iqaluich Nigiñaqtuat, Fish That We Eat, January 2006 (www.westonaprice.org/The-Fish-That-We-Eat-by-Anore-Jones.html, http://goingferal.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/iqaluich-niginaqtuat-the-fish-that-we-eat)

"A second reason for the increased number of botulism cases is that people are now using plastic or glass containers more often to ferment foods. These types of containers do not allow air to circulate and create an ideal situation for the botulism germs to make their poison."  --"Why Does Alaska Have More Botulism," Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, last reviewed: October 24, 2001, http://www2a.cdc.gov/phtn/botulism/alaska/alaska.asp

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Fermentation (food) Meat-based
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_(food)#Meat-based

Meat-based
Jamón ibérico, Chorizo, Salami, pepperoni

....

Risks of consuming fermented foods

"Alaska has witnessed a steady increase of cases of botulism since 1985. Despite its small population, it has more cases of botulism than any other state in the United States of America.[12] This is caused by the traditional Eskimo practice of allowing animal products such as whole fish, fish heads, walrus, sea lion and whale flippers, beaver tails, seal oil, birds, etc., to ferment for an extended period of time before being consumed. The risk is exacerbated when a plastic container is used for this purpose instead of the old-fashioned method, a grass-lined hole, as the botulinum bacteria thrive in the anaerobic conditions created by the air-tight enclosure in plastic.[12]"


As exponents of the raw Paleo diet, it is left largely to us to counter the negative misinformation that floods the Internet about raw meats/fish. If we repeat the vegan propaganda without first thoroughly investigating it with a generous amount of skepticism, we compound the error and infect one of the few avenues available for the truth to seep out.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 12:20:18 am »
Thanks.
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Offline achillezzz

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 12:29:38 am »
PaleoPhil damnnnnn

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 05:36:40 am »
LOL Sorry, militant vegan misinformation that plagues the Internet is one of my pet peeves.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline magnetic

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Re: High vs. Fermented Meat
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 09:59:13 am »
LOL Sorry, militant vegan misinformation that plagues the Internet is one of my pet peeves.

Very informative, my interest is piqued.  I want to read more about different types of putrefaction...

I read some of that article you linked to from 1912.  Fascinating.  Here is a definition from dictionary.com:

pu·tre·fac·tion
? ?/?pyutr??fæk??n/ Show Spelled[pyoo-truh-fak-shuhn]
–noun
1.
the act or process of putrefying; the anaerobic decomposition of organic matter by bacteria and fungi that results in obnoxiously odorous products; rotting.

So someone got it right.  Anaerobic as opposed to aerobic decomposition.

Ryan