Author Topic: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!  (Read 6744 times)

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Offline Iguana

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2013, 06:03:56 AM »
Left the jungles but not the tropics.

Offline Barefoot Instincto

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2013, 07:07:38 AM »
Our Paleolithic ancestors almost certainly would have foraged by the laws of optimal foraging theory ie. spend as few calories as possible to obtain as many calories as possible.

So? We're not in paleo times. We can't be paleo perfect and we shouldn't be trying to be. If we have access to large amounts of nutrient dense food we should eat it. Whose to say at some point in paleo times a lot of vegetables were gathered, not by your own hand but for you? Does this suddenly mean its wrong and oh noes we shall now not eat it and all of its nutritional glory. A lot of us do labor heavy jobs, like me. Whose to say the time and effort and what have you I spend doing that, earning money, can't go into large amounts of sustenance, albeit energy poor sustenance (usable energy, that is. Not LIFE FORCE energy).

Nutrients are not the only thing to consider. When you eat that plant you absorb its unique life-force. The laws of nature and the workings of the universe go far beyond what most of us consider. The food is many things to us, not simply "nutrients" as we know them.

Dr. D: The evidence for the health promoting effects of a mostly only meat diet is shoddy. I don't see how you can rely on that fact at all to make any point. A human can live off of garbage food for a long time and seem fine, but what I'd find interesting to see is if that person can then become something of a "hardcore fitness buff" without these plant compounds, and live without problems into old age.

My idea of health is body-builder or extremely fit and functionally strong looking athlete (basically one of the highest of quality people you see from time to time). We were all meant to look like this, developed strongly in childhood and carried on through life. If you aren't like this (most of us don't even come close) then you can make absolutely no claim to the lack of veggies being a healthy thing for you, even if people seem to be "living".

Anti-nutrients exist, obviously. But they're blown out of proportion. To suggest that large amounts of vegetables, when taken into the context of a very healthy diet filled with a range of food (and an abundance of it to keep you healthy) could be the wrong idea is idiotic. Every food has these things, but that doesn't mean they outweigh the benefit.

That being said, yes, it should be a seasonal thing for the most part, with vegetable intake declining sharply for winter but not being eliminated (the idea of it being unnatural at times doesn't necessarily destroy all benefits it can accrue or induce more negatives than positives, if done with limitation).

Offline van

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2013, 08:37:27 AM »
Why would they have to import fruit if they lived in tropical jungles where fruit is abundant whole year round as there is no such thing as winter in the tropics? Significant human population of Europe and other temperate regions occurred only after the mastery of fire.
This topic has been discussed and addressed ad nauseum on various threads. GS mentioned in a post I’m unable to find again that when the Spaniards came to Philippines, fruits were extremely abundant.

I was thinking of you, living in Europe, eating fruits cultivated and imported from all over throughout the whole year, and instinctos at Montrame when I used to visit,, eating food from all over the globe, tables lined with fruits, perfectly ripe, very very sweet and at least to me,, so tempting to fill up on.  Just had to walk downstairs and sit myself at the table.

And…

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2013, 09:45:42 AM »
This is to help explain why I have a rough personal rule of thumb to try to keep my 1 hour post meal blood glucose below 160, not to imply any claims about what macronutrient ratio anyone should eat--I found this example in my notes of a people who can eat loads of starchy carbs their whole lives without spiking their tested BG above 180 at 1 hour after consuming glucose:

Quote
In the 1960s, when it was fashionable to study non-industrial cultures, researchers investigated the diet and health of a culture in Tukisenta, in the highlands of Papua New Guinea. The eat practically nothing but sweet potatoes, and their typical daily fare is 94.6 percent carbohydrate. Whether or not you believe that exact number, their diet was clearly extraordinarily high in carbohydrate. They administered 100g OGTTs [liquid glucose] and measured blood glucose at one hour, which is a very stringent OGTT. They compared the results to those obtained in the 1965 Tecumseh study (US) obtained by the same method. Here's what they found (1): [chart] Compared to Americans, in Tukisenta they had an extraordinary glucose tolerance at all ages. At one hour, their blood glucose was scarcely above normal fasting values, and glucose tolerance only decreased modestly with age. In contrast, in Americans over 50 years old, the average one-hour value was around 180 mg/dL!

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/11/glucose-tolerance-in-non-industrial.html

Perhaps these Tukisentans have very healthy microbiomes or helminths or something that help them deal with such a high carb diet. Whatever the reason, not everyone gets big BG spikes from carby meals, so it's not necessarily natural or healthy to get them.

Footnote: anyone who has read my early posts in this forum will know that I didn't come to this from an originally pro-carbs-bias viewpoint. I even reported quite a bit of evidence supporting the hypothesis that humans might be classed as facultative carnivores. I kept my eyes open for counter examples, and this was a rather amazing one.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Haai

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2013, 03:34:51 PM »
Left the jungles but not the tropics.


Tropical grassland ecosystems have far fewer fruits. Compared to tropical jungles there are far fewer frugivorous animal species, due to the limited fruit supply. The few frugivores that there are are mostly birds, because they are able to cover the distance between dispersed fruit sources. Fruits also grow seasonally in tropical grassland ecosystems (wet and dry seasons).
"Have no limitation as limitation" - Bruce Lee

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Offline Iguana

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2013, 03:50:52 PM »
I was thinking of you, living in Europe, eating fruits cultivated and imported from all over throughout the whole year, and instinctos at Montrame when I used to visit,, eating food from all over the globe, tables lined with fruits, perfectly ripe, very very sweet and at least to me,, so tempting to fill up on.  Just had to walk downstairs and sit myself at the table.

And…
And... ?

I now eat seafood (I haven't yet find a reliable source of meat in the region since I came here 2 months ago), vegetables and fruits from the area around here, as most of us do most of the time and wherever possible. I don’t say “local” because the concept of “local” lacks a precise definition.

Once again, the situation at Montramé was specific and organized in a way that newbies and ill people could quickly and easily discover the immense choice offered by nature and choose the food best suited to them at the moment to let their body recover and heal. The fact that this situation was artificial and made it much too easy to obtain our food was acknowledged and recognized by GCB himself. He said he hadn’t found any solution to this problem.

Cheers
François

Offline Iguana

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2013, 04:19:28 PM »
Thanks for your quote, Phil. Interesting, to say the least. .
Tropical grassland ecosystems have far fewer fruits. Compared to tropical jungles there are far fewer frugivorous animal species, due to the limited fruit supply. The few frugivores that there are are mostly birds, because they are able to cover the distance between dispersed fruit sources. Fruits also grow seasonally in tropical grassland ecosystems (wet and dry seasons).

Yes, and that could be why we eat a lot of animal foods. But it doesn’t mean that we are not adapted to fruits as well. The ecosystem you describe is the current one and we know that ecosystems can change quite a lot in relatively short periods of time. What was exactly the one of our ancestors 1 million years ago?  Where they all living in identical or similar environments? Didn’t they move and thrive in various environments as we homo sapiens still do?

I just spoke with my neighbors last evening and they told me one of their friends walks easily 40 km per day; he walked from Würzburg to Rome in 6 weeks. According to Google Maps, that is a 1 126 km, 233 hours walk.

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2013, 04:32:04 PM »
This is to help explain why I have a rough personal rule of thumb to try to keep my 1 hour post meal blood glucose below 160, not to imply any claims about what macronutrient ratio anyone should eat--I found this example in my notes of a people who can eat loads of starchy carbs their whole lives without spiking their tested BG above 180 at 1 hour after consuming glucose:
Perhaps these Tukisentans have very healthy microbiomes or helminths or something that help them deal with such a high carb diet. Whatever the reason, not everyone gets big BG spikes from carby meals, so it's not necessarily natural or healthy to get them.

Footnote: anyone who has read my early posts in this forum will know that I didn't come to this from an originally pro-carbs-bias viewpoint. I even reported quite a bit of evidence supporting the hypothesis that humans might be classed as facultative carnivores. I kept my eyes open for counter examples, and this was a rather amazing one.

I know i came across some theories that carb eating cultures have a way inside their gut that converts carbs to something like fat.  Dont know really.  Must be a genetic thing.

I live in a rice crazy country and me and my 11 yr old boy are odd for not eating rice.

My boy has digestive issues with rice.  Me too... But not as bad... I used to suffer from blood sugar highs and crashes daily thinking that was normal.

Who knows maybe some of those tribal folk are still not fully adapted.

Im of mixed breed so its just my bad luck how the genes mixed.

Maybe most of us here are the odd unadapted people unsuited for the 21st century norms.

The rest of the sickly who didnt find their suitable diet are diseased and will die out.

Offline Haai

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2013, 10:57:06 PM »
Yes, and that could be why we eat a lot of animal foods. But it doesn’t mean that we are not adapted to fruits as well. The ecosystem you describe is the current one and we know that ecosystems can change quite a lot in relatively short periods of time. What was exactly the one of our ancestors 1 million years ago?  Where they all living in identical or similar environments? Didn’t they move and thrive in various environments as we homo sapiens still do?

I just spoke with my neighbors last evening and they told me one of their friends walks easily 40 km per day; he walked from Würzburg to Rome in 6 weeks. According to Google Maps, that is a 1 126 km, 233 hours walk.


The African Savanna has been around for millions of years. It just expands or gets smaller depending on the level of aridity, determined by global climate change. Apparently there was significant expansion of grassland 2 to 1.75 million years ago (MA) (Quinn et al, 2007).

Homo erectus had spread into northern China by at least 1.66 MA. So yes, the genus Homo inhabited regions with significantly different climates by 1 MA. Chances are, though, that we didn't evolve from Homo erectus, but rather an African population of Homo heidelbergensis (Manzi, 2011).

J Hum Evol. 2007 Nov;53(5):560-73. Epub 2007 Oct 1.
Paleogeographic variations of pedogenic carbonate delta13C values from Koobi Fora, Kenya: implications for floral compositions of Plio-Pleistocene hominin environments.
Quinn RL, Lepre CJ, Wright JD, Feibel CS.

Manzi G. Before the emergence of Homo sapiens: Overview on the Early-to-Middle Pleistocene fossil record (with a proposal about Homo heidelbergensis at the subspecific level). International Journal of Evolutionary Biology 2011 May; 582678. doi: 10.4061/2011/582678.

Having to walk tens of kilometers just to get some fruit is hardly optimal foraging. I would happily walk 40km every day if I knew I was going to get access to an ungulate carcass at the end of it, of which I would only need relatively very little, compared to fruits, to balance the caloric deficit I obtained from the walk.
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Offline van

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2013, 11:44:11 PM »
And... ?

I now eat seafood (I haven't yet find a reliable source of meat in the region since I came here 2 months ago), vegetables and fruits from the area around here, as most of us do most of the time and wherever possible. I don’t say “local” because the concept of “local” lacks a precise definition

Once again, the situation at Montramé was specific and organized in a way that newbies and ill people could quickly and easily discover the immense choice offered by nature and choose the food best suited to them at the moment to let their body recover and heal. The fact that this situation was artificial and made it much too easy to obtain our food was acknowledged and recognized by GCB himself. He said he hadn’t found any solution to this problem.

  Good to know,  I think it really made it difficult for people like myself to come home and not just get over fruited out,, too many day after day sugar highs.   It was hard for me to correlate my failing health then when I had bee taught that if honey, mangos and dates are what smells etc.. the best, eat as much as you want...  So again, that is what I am speaking of, the daily consumption of high amounts of sugar spiking insulin repeatedly..


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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2013, 12:36:33 AM »
The African Savanna has been around for millions of years. It just expands or gets smaller depending on the level of aridity, determined by global climate change. Apparently there was significant expansion of grassland 2 to 1.75 million years ago (MA) (Quinn et al, 2007).

Homo erectus had spread into northern China by at least 1.66 MA. So yes, the genus Homo inhabited regions with significantly different climates by 1 MA. Chances are, though, that we didn't evolve from Homo erectus, but rather an African population of Homo heidelbergensis (Manzi, 2011).

J Hum Evol. 2007 Nov;53(5):560-73. Epub 2007 Oct 1.
Paleogeographic variations of pedogenic carbonate delta13C values from Koobi Fora, Kenya: implications for floral compositions of Plio-Pleistocene hominin environments.
Quinn RL, Lepre CJ, Wright JD, Feibel CS.

Manzi G. Before the emergence of Homo sapiens: Overview on the Early-to-Middle Pleistocene fossil record (with a proposal about Homo heidelbergensis at the subspecific level). International Journal of Evolutionary Biology 2011 May; 582678. doi: 10.4061/2011/582678.

Thanks, good and well referenced info — as it should be if we wanna be taken seriously. However I fear that these papers only reflect the current mainstream state of knowledge, which is subject to some controversies and will probably be altered in the future to take account of new discoveries. All this remains somehow hypothetical. For example where does the  “Aquatic Ape Theory” or AAT fits in all this? Is it compatible or not? I don’t know, I ask you because you seem to have a good knowledge of anthropology, something I don’t have. 

Quote
Having to walk tens of kilometers just to get some fruit is hardly optimal foraging. I would happily walk 40km every day if I knew I was going to get access to an ungulate carcass at the end of it, of which I would only need relatively very little, compared to fruits, to balance the caloric deficit I obtained from the walk.

Yeah, I didn’t mention this long distance hiker to tell that our ancestors walked likewise — not to go to Rome but to pick a few fruits on a faraway tree!  ;D No, it was to remain that Paleolithic hominids and humans were certainly moving around a lot and could cover long distances in a relatively short time, thus having access and spreading to various ecosystems and different kinds of foods. It’s not only a matter of caloric balance, but also of variety. Our ancestors became sedentary in the Neolithic only, then tied in one place by their grain fields and livestock. 

Offline Haai

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2013, 12:59:19 AM »
Thanks, good and well referenced info — as it should be if we wanna be taken seriously. However I fear that these papers only reflect the current mainstream state of knowledge, which is subject to some controversies and will probably be altered in the future to take account of new discoveries. All this remains somehow hypothetical. For example where does the  “Aquatic Ape Theory” or AAT fits in all this? Is it compatible or not? I don’t know, I ask you because you seem to have a good knowledge of anthropology, something I don’t have. 

Yeah, I didn’t mention this long distance hiker to tell that our ancestors walked likewise — not to go to Rome but to pick a few fruits on a faraway tree!  ;D No, it was to remain that Paleolithic hominids and humans were certainly moving around a lot and could cover long distances in a relatively short time, thus having access and spreading to various ecosystems and different kinds of foods. It’s not only a matter of caloric balance, but also of variety. Our ancestors became sedentary in the Neolithic only, then tied in one place by their grain fields and livestock. 


You are right that much of what we know about hominin evolution is hypothetical, and there are several different proposed hypotheses. But these hypotheses are based on the discovered evidence so far. I am by no means an expert on the subject, I have just read some scientific articles on the subject, that's all. I havn't read much about the aquatic ape theory, but as far as I am aware it is not compatible with the other hypotheses about human evolution.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2013, 01:08:45 AM »
  Good to know,  I think it really made it difficult for people like myself to come home and not just get over fruited out,, too many day after day sugar highs.   It was hard for me to correlate my failing health then when I had bee taught that if honey, mangos and dates are what smells etc.. the best, eat as much as you want...  So again, that is what I am speaking of, the daily consumption of high amounts of sugar spiking insulin repeatedly..

I remember you answered to me that you don’t speak French. As the explanations were given in French only, I’m afraid you didn’t really get everything straight. We were clearly and repeatedly told both in the sessions and in the written articles published in “Orkoscopie”, which became latter “Instincto Magazine”, to be wary of modern fruits, to eat a minimum of fruits and a maximum of veggies — as far as plant foods are concerned.

I know it’s difficult, especially when we are psychologically missing something such as love and affection. Humans are not meant to live alone or to be locked into a malfunctioning couple. In such situations we tend to overeat those too easily obtainable sweet foods to compensate the lack of satisfaction and enjoyment in our lives.

Offline van

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2013, 04:10:23 AM »
I agree about filling the emptiness with sweets, or food in general.    The times I was there, five times over five years,  I spent big blocks of time being tutored by Nicole, and others...  Plus I watched the eating patterns of the long timers...      So my guess is that if you're told now (or at some time) to eat more veggies than fruits, that in itself, if followed, mentally  contradicts your impulses to eat more sweet fruits.  Or,, what do You if you come across an abandoned fig tree and the figs are perfectly ripe, you break them apart and they ooze sweet jam like sugars,  and they are the type of figs that don't burn your tongue,  when do you stop?   My point here is,  big deal if it's only a few times a year this happens.  But if it's the next day and you've imported a Durian, as Montrame did/does, and then you have bought a dozen mangoes...  the way we can find really yummy ripe fruit year around these days, either you're using some discipline and limiting how much you eat,  or you're indulging and believing that you're body needs 'these' nutrients and will tell you when you've had enough.     So it's not that we're not adapted to eat fruits,,  my point is how much and how often.   My experience with eating fat for calories vs. fruit is that now even though I still enjoy the taste of fruit, I can feel the effects of rising blood sugar, and not to mention what I think about it.  Before I 'found' fat as a fuel source, I had little or no idea of what it was doing, and would not look closely enough after eating it as to how it really made me feel.  But then, we're all different.  And some of us have less or more love that truly fills us.

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2013, 04:50:18 AM »
So my guess is that if you're told now (or at some time) to eat more veggies than fruits, that in itself, if followed, mentally  contradicts your impulses to eat more sweet fruits.

No, the advise is not: "eat more veggies than fruits". It is: "eat a max of veggies and a minimum of fruits, especially of cultivated modern fruits". It’s not the same, can you see the difference?

You mention figs. Figs are quite wild, you can barely eat too many. I ate a few tonight and I’m absolutely fed up of figs, I can’t eat more of them even if there are several kilos left in my fridge. I wish I rather had some fatty wild boar meat instead, but unfortunately I haven’t got any meat. I got plenty of limpets for my lunch, though, since the tide was low around lunch time.

Offline van

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2013, 05:28:01 AM »
I see some difference, but still there is a mental process going on, or in need to be remembered.  I remember being on Crete in Greece, the figs were everywhere,, years ago.  I could easily eat a kilo of more without a stop.  Some figs here in US will create a burning stop, some won't until you've eaten quite a bit.   
  Your example of not wanting figs and craving fatty Boar meat, I know what you mean.  My point is that let's say you have the Boar meat, a day goes buy and there's a market with Mangoes or Durian, who knows what you'll be drawn to, but I have experience a yo-yo effect;  yes I can eat so much fruit that I want protein and fat, but the next day I can very easily be tempted by some sugary fruit if it's staring right at me in my fridge or counter, or market place where I'm shopping.    Again, I think this is different than peoples had years and years ago; simply, the consistent availability of sweet fruits.

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2013, 11:00:16 AM »
Regarding modern fruit... yes I have observed this.  Go for the more ancient the more organic by default ones. 

And follow the seasons... that is what the healers here in the Philippines advise... there is always something new in season and local.

-----------

My latest observations support the aquatic ape theory with regards to our nutritional requirements and deficiencies.

- magnesium is the big deficient mineral but can be abundantly found if you lived and waded in the beach waters.  abundant magnesium from sea plants, fish and the ocean water through our skin.  The magnesium absorbed through skin is the big bad kicker.  Even if you stuff yourself with magnesium supplements you can never get your requirements unless you get it through your skin.

- zinc is skyrocketing #1 healing from oysters.

- omega 3 fats from sea creatures

- we need some amount of salt... but living by the sea fits the bill without need for "table" salt.


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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2013, 03:54:40 PM »
Regarding modern fruit... yes I have observed this.  Go for the more ancient the more organic by default ones. 

And follow the seasons... that is what the healers here in the Philippines advise... there is always something new in season and local.

-----------

My latest observations support the aquatic ape theory with regards to our nutritional requirements and deficiencies.

- magnesium is the big deficient mineral but can be abundantly found if you lived and waded in the beach waters.  abundant magnesium from sea plants, fish and the ocean water through our skin.  The magnesium absorbed through skin is the big bad kicker.  Even if you stuff yourself with magnesium supplements you can never get your requirements unless you get it through your skin.

- zinc is skyrocketing #1 healing from oysters.

- omega 3 fats from sea creatures

- we need some amount of salt... but living by the sea fits the bill without need for "table" salt.



I am not convinced that our magnesium nutritional requirement is as high as you say it is. Where do you get your opinion about magnesium from?

There's plenty of zinc in meats and organ meats. I just had a quick check on USDA nutrient database. There were two types of raw oysters, one had a bit more zinc than raw lamb liver, the other less.

If you're eating grass-fed ungulates you shouldn't have to worry about essential PUFAs. The omega 6 to 3 ratio is more important anyway.

My body can't stand salt, whether it's sea salt or not.
"Have no limitation as limitation" - Bruce Lee

Author of, 'The Raw Paleo Diet & Lifestyle: why I eat my meat raw and why you should too!'

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2013, 10:48:31 PM »
My latest experiences and experiments on magnesium
http://www.myhealthblog.org/2013/08/08/magnesium-deficiency-the-big-elephant-in-the-room-big-root-cause-of-many-diseases/
- my childrens' leg cramps
- my father in law's lower back pain osteo arthritis

My opinion on zinc:

Oysters - 1 ounce gives 25.4 mg zinc or 170% DV
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4189/2

Raw Beef - 1 ounce gives only 1.3 mg if zinc or 8% DV
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/10526/2

- my experience with healing my eyes (eating a dinner of raw oysters after abstinence of a few years), seems like I woke up with tint removed from my vision

- my experience with raw oysters almost every other day while on SAD after 1 month measuring my sperm count from 100 million / ml to 300 million / ml

My opinion for omega 3 fats from fish:

- my brother stopped shivering to death while being deathly sick due to MD psoriasis treatment... all it took was a lunch of raw tuna sashimi.

- Inger's experience with raw fish heads is amazing.

My readings about Soil and Health... that our farmed soils are depleted... but that the oceans are still rich in nutrients.

Why there are illnesses that are cured by people bathing in the ocean. 

Why mountain people have to trade with the sea shore people for sea foods to complete their nutritional requirements.  But the sea shore people have less need to trade with mountain people for nutritional deficiencies.

Why aren't omega 3 supplements made from cows or sheep?

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2013, 11:35:24 PM »
I agree on the mineral balance with sea food. Eating Salmon satisfies my need for minerals, maybe mg, who knows, at least by going by any tendency to have leg cramps.   Oysters, I'm sure are full of Zinc, as shown, but have not noticed any benefits.   Swimming in the ocean to absorb mg,,  maybe, the minerals in the ocean, even though ionic in size, are still not organically bound as in the minerals in plant and animals.  Whether the body absorbs enough to matter, who knows.  There is a big craze right now with mg. oil.  And maybe it does work.  I think one would have to do some lab work to find out,, For there can be so many other factors.  Such as, anyone who is inclined to rub mg oil on their body is already probably focused on the importance of mg, and probably believes they need more, and My Guess is that they are more aware of what foods have mg. and are including them at the same time.  Swimming in the ocean can have a myriad of effects on health;  breathing ocean air, cleansing the skin by the action of swimming and sand (exfoliating dead skin cells and removing old body oils and grime ) and receiving  large amounts of vit D from Sun exposure,  sun bathing for the eyes due to the high reflectance of water, exercise in itself,  the simple joy or elation of swimming in the ocean itself, the reduction of stress by swimming and taking the time to relax and do something 'healthy' for yourself,  the natural stretching that occurs while swimming which can be likened to yoga,   and the list goes on... 

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2013, 01:47:52 AM »
My latest experiences and experiments on magnesium
http://www.myhealthblog.org/2013/08/08/magnesium-deficiency-the-big-elephant-in-the-room-big-root-cause-of-many-diseases/
- my childrens' leg cramps
- my father in law's lower back pain osteo arthritis

My opinion on zinc:

Oysters - 1 ounce gives 25.4 mg zinc or 170% DV
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4189/2

Raw Beef - 1 ounce gives only 1.3 mg if zinc or 8% DV
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/10526/2

- my experience with healing my eyes (eating a dinner of raw oysters after abstinence of a few years), seems like I woke up with tint removed from my vision

- my experience with raw oysters almost every other day while on SAD after 1 month measuring my sperm count from 100 million / ml to 300 million / ml

My opinion for omega 3 fats from fish:

- my brother stopped shivering to death while being deathly sick due to MD psoriasis treatment... all it took was a lunch of raw tuna sashimi.

- Inger's experience with raw fish heads is amazing.

My readings about Soil and Health... that our farmed soils are depleted... but that the oceans are still rich in nutrients.

Why there are illnesses that are cured by people bathing in the ocean. 

Why mountain people have to trade with the sea shore people for sea foods to complete their nutritional requirements.  But the sea shore people have less need to trade with mountain people for nutritional deficiencies.

Why aren't omega 3 supplements made from cows or sheep?


Don't your kids eat rice? The phytate content of rice, which binds with Mg and inhibits absorption, could well be the problem. We should be thinking about Mg balance (intake - excretion), not just intake.
"Have no limitation as limitation" - Bruce Lee

Author of, 'The Raw Paleo Diet & Lifestyle: why I eat my meat raw and why you should too!'

Offline Haai

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2013, 01:49:30 AM »
I agree on the mineral balance with sea food. Eating Salmon satisfies my need for minerals, maybe mg, who knows, at least by going by any tendency to have leg cramps.   Oysters, I'm sure are full of Zinc, as shown, but have not noticed any benefits.   Swimming in the ocean to absorb mg,,  maybe, the minerals in the ocean, even though ionic in size, are still not organically bound as in the minerals in plant and animals.  Whether the body absorbs enough to matter, who knows.  There is a big craze right now with mg. oil.  And maybe it does work.  I think one would have to do some lab work to find out,, For there can be so many other factors.  Such as, anyone who is inclined to rub mg oil on their body is already probably focused on the importance of mg, and probably believes they need more, and My Guess is that they are more aware of what foods have mg. and are including them at the same time.  Swimming in the ocean can have a myriad of effects on health;  breathing ocean air, cleansing the skin by the action of swimming and sand (exfoliating dead skin cells and removing old body oils and grime ) and receiving  large amounts of vit D from Sun exposure,  sun bathing for the eyes due to the high reflectance of water, exercise in itself,  the simple joy or elation of swimming in the ocean itself, the reduction of stress by swimming and taking the time to relax and do something 'healthy' for yourself,  the natural stretching that occurs while swimming which can be likened to yoga,   and the list goes on... 

being earthed, just to add to your list :)
"Have no limitation as limitation" - Bruce Lee

Author of, 'The Raw Paleo Diet & Lifestyle: why I eat my meat raw and why you should too!'

Offline van

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2013, 03:09:55 AM »
a couple more,  the idea we swallow salt water when we swim, which might have more mg. than what comes through our skin,,   which probably does move our bowels, coupled with being buoyant in the water unweights the colon ( and other organs ) and allows them to work in an unweighted manner ( ever try taking a full enema floating in a bath tub?) 

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2013, 08:58:27 AM »
Don't your kids eat rice? The phytate content of rice, which binds with Mg and inhibits absorption, could well be the problem. We should be thinking about Mg balance (intake - excretion), not just intake.

Thats a great thought. Thank you.

My eldest child is the least affected by leg cramps maybe because he no longer eats rice due to his health history.

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Re: Massive health problems. Good bye raw paleo!
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2013, 10:22:45 AM »
I thought phytates are in mostly the bran and the germ or grain seeds,, maybe I'm wrong.   But I also think there's a relation to sugar/high glycemic carbs (white rice) and mineral balance and needs.  I can't think of the references, sorry.