Author Topic: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL  (Read 3070 times)

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Offline goodsamaritan

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RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL

The people living in this state / country need to petition their congressmen and senators to abolish stupid laws like these.

From my point of view as a foreigner your anti-raw milk laws are stupid.

5 raw videos uploaded on youtube.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1583005/pg1



Offline Eric

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 07:37:04 AM »
According to the thread the owner was illegally importing raw milk from outside state lines. He could have operated Rawsome within the law, but chose not to and will now pay the price.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 08:18:39 AM »
A local market in this area imports raw cheeses from Spain and other foreign countries. Does this mean they are going to be stormed by SWAT police too?  ???  :o

Raw dairy is the only real hope for small dairy farms, as big dairy can do organic, but not raw, so I hope raw becomes more legal, not less.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Eric

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 09:32:06 AM »
In-state sale of raw milk is legal in many states, including here in Vermont provided the milk is sold from the farm that produces it. In other words, you can freely buy raw milk from the farm that produces it in Vermont, but you can't buy it from a supermarket. You also cannot ship raw milk across state lines. That's not a state law, that's a federal law. It is also the law that was broken in the case of RawSome. I don't know California's laws well, so it's also possible that they are similar to Vermont in that it would be legal to buy raw milk from the farm that produces it but not from a store. In this case, here's a second law that was broken. Cheese made from raw milk is different. I don't claim to know why, perhaps because it keeps longer, but it's legal to ship cheese made from raw milk not only across state lines but from country to country.

Raw dairy IS the only hope for small dairy farms, and this is largely why it's such a controversial issue. Large dairy farms want to keep selling their products without fear of being outcompeted by little guys that sell vastly superior products, and particularly don't want the research illuminating how pathetic their product actually is permeating public discourse. Raw milk is controversial largely because it challenges a worldview that supports industrial production of agricultural products, including the industrial production of "organic" agricultural products and organic dairy products specifically.

But, we also have to ask the question of whether it's worth it to produce dairy products in general. Sure, some people can tolerate them, but are they actually good for people, even when raw? We (Homo sapiens) are the only species that I know of that consumes the milk of another species. We are also the only species that consumes milk past the stage of weaning, which for all species ends in early childhood. In other words, we're the only species that insists on holding onto an early childhood food into adulthood. Why? Why can't we eat foods designed for early childhood during early childhood, and graduate into adult foods when the time comes?

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 10:46:43 AM »
I think it has more to do with people having the FREEDOM to consume the products they want.

If I wanted raw carabao's milk I would just go to the wet market in the morning and I can buy 1 8oz bottle for $1 USD.

I've got this freedom in my 3rd world country.  

And if it makes me sick, that's my freedom too.
I'm not a dairy advocate, just a freedom advocate.

Offline Eric

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 11:00:03 AM »
And the point that I'm trying to make is that freedom always comes at a cost, and I'm asking at what point the cost becomes too great. The cost to the individuals who consume dairy, raw or pasteurized, grass fed and organic or grain fed and pumped full of growth hormones and antibiotics, is one thing. The cost to the land is another issue entirely, and this is where I'm willing to raise objections to the dairy industry, raw and organic or otherwise. Cattle, particularly when raised for dairy where feed and forage must be closely managed and controlled, is very hard on the land. Raising cattle for meat is much gentler on the land because it's easier to incorporate polycultures, although bison are far better adapted to polycultural foraging in temperate climates than cattle and of course no one would remotely consider attempting to milk a bison.

Offline KD

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 12:44:00 PM »
Lets say someone had the idea to make their own gasoline from cow dung and refine it themselves and somehow its better quality (lasts longer or something) and they decided to sell it themselves to the populace. Now i'm not an expert of the law but I'm pretty sure that is illegal..perhaps for some legitimate reasons. Now if that person was busted..you'd be right in that the person broke a law. All this other stuff is totally on the periphery and seems more or less personal rather than relevant or at all logical in understanding why this is bad or good.

In that example whether or not the selling or sustainability of alternative gasoline is wrong based on gas itself being unsustainable would have nothing to do with it. Ditto whether dairy is natural or sustainable. Whats different about dairy in this instance is it really is very close to the end of the spectrum of personal choice without consequences to others and far more than junkfood/drugs/guns you name it as far as how it effects everyone. In other words..with drugs sure people have a right to destroy themselves..but often this effects others (robbing/murder etc..) whereas there isn't really any legitimate case against raw dairy vs pasteurized dairy in terms of effecting people other than allegedly on the personal level. If they were right on the merits of pasteurization they would still be pretty minor in like health care costs compared to tobacco and junk food. Essentially the importance is obviously to enforce the idea that we oppose which is bacteria is dangerous and massive sterilization and drugs are good.

What you are talking about with whether dairy is a good thing for the populace to hold on to is not remotely involved in this issue as with someone inventing an alternative fuel being silenced or unsupported by criticizing the very nature of fuel and commerce that requires it.

Everyone seems to wants liberty and freedom, but so often only on their own terms of what is right. of course we shouldn't regulate or make drugs illegal...but raw dairy..hell thats just a healthier version of a food that some people say is not ideal and others think is healthier than anything you can buy in a conventional supermarket or that 98% of the American populate probably eats daily.

There will be at least three apocalypses before humans as a group stop consuming dairy from animals..so that isn't exactly a fight or argument as far as I'm concerned. The only possible outcome of more strict enforcement of these things is shittier quality food for the people that depend on it..not radical examining of the agricultural landscape.

so we are left with

1.) less access to raw dairy...which some (raw or otherwise) see as essential to their health.
or
2.) more outrage towards government infringement on food.

Now i'm not even one of these people who think government has no jurisdiction or ability over changing policy for the better..but at just about the bottom of that list is to regulate dairy to the point where citizens become more aware of polycultures.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2011, 02:44:56 PM »
Here is Aajonus' response to the Rawesome raid:-

"   
 Aajonus Vonderplan?itz
To aajonus
From:   aajonus (optimal@earthlink.net)
Sent:   04 August 2011 05:08:23
To:    aajonus (optimal@earthlink.net)
Hi, healthy-food lovers,
Many of you already know that local and federal health-departments raided Rawesome Food Club this morning and confiscated most of the members' food. No one seems to know the particulars of the situation, including me.

However, I spoke with the investigating detectives who stated that the government was going to charge James Stewart and Sharon Palmer with Security fraud because they raised money illegally and passed it illegally through a bank account, according to them and their interpretation of the law. The bank account was not James or Sharon's; they passed the money through Mr. Otting's account without his permission. Whether any of that is truly illegal, I do not know. However, Sharon forged title deeds in her name, defrauding several investors. No true deed for Healthy Family Farms (HFF) was in Sharon's name. Sharon and James trapped investor Mr. Larry Otting in their fraud, subjecting him to the same charges of Security fraud. Mr. Otting was the investor who was kind enough to get the mortgage to buy HFF All of that will be argued and challenged in court and there is nothing anyone can do about it except a skilled defense attorney.

Additionally, it is my understanding from detectives that Sharon and Victoria Bloch were going to be charged with mislabeling and selling eggs and meats that were purchased from commercial wholesalers at farmers markets as grown at HFF. Farmers can sell only food products that they raise and grow on their farms at Farmer's Markets. Both Sharon and Victoria knew those rules.

Here is the Raw-Food Issue:
Since the government agencies did not know specifically where all of the foods originated at Rawesome, they took it upon themselves to confiscate all foods on the premises that James claims were all his, and dump the milk. No one was there to claim that the food belonged to members and not James. The food was members' property and not James'. Only if that will be stated in court tomorrow by one or more members and/or an attorney for members acting in Intervention can members assert their voices and claims to their property in this matter. Therefore, I am asking all attorneys who are members of Rawesome Food Club and any other interested attorney to appear tomorrow with a Motion for Intervention and release of the foods confiscated. And a motion for dismissal or Cross-Complaint in Intervention regarding any charges about the food other than eggs and meats from Sharon.

We do not know what the charges will be until the court reads them in the arraignment tomorrow morning. We do not know how much our raw-food rights will be on trial, if at all but members and others must appear for the Rally outside the courthouse to insure that if raw-food rights are part of the arraignment, members and citizens will be there to represent themselves and be represented by one or more attorneys.

Many of you wonder why I did not try to intervene today. I could not. Because James and Sharon fraudulently provided commercial eggs and chickens to Rawesome members from 2009-2010 and were caught in the act by independent investigators and I announced it (see www.UnhealthyFamilyFarm.com), I was banned from Rawesome by James Stewart. James also banned HFF farms supporter and financier Larry Otting and a family whose daughter was harmed by the toxic ingredients, especially arsenic and uranium in the commercial eggs and chickens that James and Sharon claimed were organic and grown at HFF because they also made the fraud known to others, Therefore, I cannot appear as a member in Intervention at the hearing tomorrow. Members need at least one representative with a statement signed by as many members as possible to intervene if the government makes member's food, other than the eggs and chicken, part of the cases against James, Sharon and Victoria tomorrow.

Please join members and others for the right to healthy food tomorrow, Thursday August 4th, 7:30 AM for rally at:

210 West Temple, Division 30
Los Angeles, CA

Parking will be limited so many people might have to walk distances to get to rally from parking lots. Please plan ahead.

Any attorney that plans to appear in members' intervention, should call me because the government thinks they have an ace-in-the-hole from a ruling about 10 days ago by a federal judge regarding the FDA and independent food clubs and farmers. I have the ruling in my possession and it does not give the FDA any right outside of commerce. This needs to be clearly understood. It will undoubtedly be argued and presented as rule of law but it will be misrepresented to cover private association. The government may be trying to usurp that ruling and any ruling in these cases to establish a precedent for them to raid any private food club they want. We must stop their tactics. I will be there.
healthfully and appreciatively,"
aajonus
“Tolerance only for those who agree with you is no tolerance at all.”
 Ray Davis

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2011, 07:20:44 PM »
But, we also have to ask the question of whether it's worth it to produce dairy products in general. Sure, some people can tolerate them, but are they actually good for people, even when raw? ... Why can't we eat foods designed for early childhood during early childhood, and graduate into adult foods when the time comes?
I don't disagree. I do think that people are going to continue to consume dairy products, so it would seem to be preferable that they eat it raw, and if raw dairy could become more legal, then raw meat might also some day start to become legal in more ways and more available and socially acceptable. If the gov't clamps down on raw dairy, then it might also clamp down more on raw meat, fish and eggs. It has already also clamped down further on raw nuts, apparently.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Eric

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 08:08:00 PM »
How is the government clamping down on raw meat? I can buy it anywhere (although obviously higher quality grass fed, grass finished meat is more rare and more costly). I can even buy it from restaurants in the form of steak tartare, and raw fish in the form of sushi is available everywhere and is socially accepted. Heck, a friend went to a local farm's work day a couple weekends ago (Bread and Butter Farm, they sell at the Burlington Farmers Market in City Hall Park) and the farm put out a spread of RAW BEEF for participants. Bread and Butter Farm is our local chapter if the Weston A. Price Foundation. I've personally brought raw meat dishes to potlucks around town, and they have been well received.

I think it is a mistake to compare the legal trajectory of raw dairy products and raw meat, as the lobby for high quality grass fed and grass finished meats is far stronger, the health benefits of these products are far more widely known and accepted, they're far more available to start with, and I feel like eating meat raw is becoming more and more socially acceptable with the popularity of sushi and similar dishes.

And how is the government clamping down on raw nuts?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 09:48:09 PM »
The government is clamping down on raw nuts by having them pasteurised(eg:- almonds). The government is also cracking down on raw meats by irradiating many of them. This only means that the bacteria within the meats get killed off, AFAIK, but it's the thin end of the wedge. There are other initatives, such as "meatless mondays" in schools where pro-animal rights campaigners try to do away with the meat lobby little by little. It's all the thin end of the wedge.

I used to think that, as I didn't eat raw dairy, that it didn't matter to me. That was until some psychos at the FDA tried to crush the raw oyster industry in Florida by enforcing automatic pasteurisation of all oysters. Fortunately, some stalwarts there managed to lobby the FDA cretins to keep off.
“Tolerance only for those who agree with you is no tolerance at all.”
 Ray Davis

Offline KD

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2011, 11:12:56 PM »
In my state not only is it illegal to purchase raw milk from a farm, it is illegal to purchase raw meat that has not been frozen from a farm...because it is illegal for them to sell it unless it is under some kind of conditions of which they cannot comply as small farmers. Again the only issue here is if this is a just law based on the realities of the safety of these foods..not which foods are ideal for human consumption.

The only way for me to acquire foods truly raw that I wish to eat would then have to come from Whole Foods - which is the only other purveyor in state of what might be seen as food other than these farms and perhaps some fishmongers - OR I have to buy from one of three hubs i'm aware of like rawsome that sell a variety of raw fresh animal foods. Another option is to order form Slankers which I do...but these don't give me the option to buy these items non-frozen or even have the range of specialty items that these services provide. The only way to buy truly raw nuts is to buy direct from farms often through e-bay, but many choose not to do that anymore and go through these other distributors.

I can assure you none of these could survive without selling raw dairy..and every time they get raided for raw dairy reasons (which they also have) they are also definitely being targeted for selling raw animal foods. If these farms go under due to these costs or disturbances that means I can't get fresh glands, that I can't get fresh bone marrow, and that I can't acquire fresh meats or anything that they don't stock at Whole Foods.

As mentioned one doesn't have to be a conspiracy nut to see that the government can easily move to requiring freezing, irradiation or other factors on meats as well. If Slankers was all of a sudden required to irradiate all their boxes is that somehow not just because it seemingly affects one group of dietary ideology other than another?

If one believes raw dairy foods to be healthier than pasteurized dairy foods...there literally is no conversation here as to which side to support. Indifference is immoral and clearly based in some fantasy about what is right or not for humans to eat as oppose to what rights people have, what food is safe, or what foods truly are the foods capable of restoring health for the population.

Offline Eric

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Offline KD

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2011, 12:32:22 AM »
Eric you seem to think a world without dairy is far more ideal. I disagree, but that really is not the issue or one that is going to be resolved on a large scale any time soon. The problem is this theory that dairy is bad or other perhaps more ideal examples of people taking back various rights or whatever do not apply here as people are not currently succeeding or will necessarily succeed in those fights and achieving those ideals in all places nor do these laws prevent dairy from being sold or produced in any way or form that is seen as legally acceptable.  Whether some places achieve better relationships to food (which is one possible positive from this stuff) does not excuse the issues around this raid which still would have clear-cut short AND long term ramifications for people that eat raw dairy and for people that do not.

Even if it could be proved that dairy is full on poison for the land and people these aren't justifications for embracing ideas that are based entirely on paranoia around a processing and distribution of a food (if not more nefarious things) and absolutely nothing to do with whether dairy itself is good or bad for people.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2011, 12:44:03 AM »
The real problem is that the Federal and State governments have grown too large.What is needed is a) a law forcing all future governments to remain within budget, on pain of imprisonment and b)  a law forcing the current federal deficit to return to 0, as soon as is feasible. The inevitable result would be that the vast US government apparatus would be so vastly reduced that individuals' rights would be vastly improved, and agencies like the FDA would be forced to concentrate only on the important cases where there had been a genuine crime committed.
“Tolerance only for those who agree with you is no tolerance at all.”
 Ray Davis

Offline Eric

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2011, 12:54:46 AM »
The debt legislation recently passed in the US seems to move towards your ideal Geoff. States are already fearing dramatic reductions in funding for various programs, as are many agencies within the Federal Government including the military. It remains to be seen, of course, whether programmatic reductions will be allocated in a way that delivers greater liberty and wellbeing, or whether they are allocated in ways that achieve the opposite goal.

Offline Modern Primate

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2011, 12:55:44 AM »
I agree, it's off-topic to bring up the question of whether we should be eating it for health. I don't consume any dairy either, but that's not what the topic is about. Just because I won't be consuming it doesn't mean it doesn't matter or doesn't concern me. I don't consume beetroot right now either, but that doesn't mean I would be okay with it being banned.  

In Ireland they are also trying to ban raw milk, from farmer's markets included. This is a terrible development that denies people their freedom to eat raw. It will also have knock-on effects into the future as more farmers will go into factory farming, loading animals with pharmaceuticals, etc. The traditional and natural ways being done away with which is a tragedy for us all.  

Offline Eric

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2011, 01:20:26 AM »
As I think about the issue more, I am coming to agree with those who would support people's right to buy and sell raw milk even though I myself don't consume it. From Aajonus' email though, it is not clear to me that raw milk was the driving factor of the raid so much as fraud. Of course it is entirely possible that the issue of fraud is being used as a cover to target raw milk sellers.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2011, 07:51:59 AM »
As I think about the issue more, I am coming to agree with those who would support people's right to buy and sell raw milk even though I myself don't consume it.
Good on ya' Eric. Thanks for the link about the Maine food sovereignty movement. I found that there's one in Vermont too:

http://vermontfoodsovereignty.net/2011/05/second-vermont-town-passes-food-sovereignty-measure/

Let's hope that these laws are upheld in the US Supreme Court.

Quote
From Aajonus' email though, it is not clear to me that raw milk was the driving factor of the raid so much as fraud.
I vaguely remember the same thing happening before, with Rawesome being raided and Aajonus writing a letter detailing numerous abuses by the owners. Does anyone know if I'm remembering that right? Are the current owners different or the same? Was Aajonus affiliated with Rawesome both times, or just before the last raid, or not at all?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2011, 08:11:04 AM »
Yes, correct, Aajonus was with rawesome but left the organisation after accusations of fraud by the members re the main leader and a farm selling much of rawesome's produce to the members.
“Tolerance only for those who agree with you is no tolerance at all.”
 Ray Davis

Offline TylerDurden

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“Tolerance only for those who agree with you is no tolerance at all.”
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Offline Eric

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2011, 09:24:47 AM »
Thanks for the link about the Maine food sovereignty movement. I found that there's one in Vermont too:

http://vermontfoodsovereignty.net/2011/05/second-vermont-town-passes-food-sovereignty-measure/

Let's hope that these laws are upheld in the US Supreme Court.


I was just at the Summervale gathering at the Intervale, and Rural Vermont was tabling there and they're actively working towards putting several more food sovereignty measures up for a vote next town meeting day. I signed up for their list. I also learned, interestingly enough, that it's perfectly legal for a farm to sell meat to a customer without having it butchered in an FDA approved facility. The way it works is that the customer must buy a share of the animal and pay ahead of time, and when this is done the farmer can butcher on-site and the customer can come by and pick up their share.

This seems like a great way to buy organs and other animal parts that are less valuable monetarily but more valuable nutritionally. I'd love to find a bison or elk rancher who will do this, or who will sell me a whole dead animal and let me butcher myself or, I suppose more likely, with a group of people as butchering something large like an elk or bison is a lot of work.

Offline magnetic

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2011, 12:31:09 AM »
And the point that I'm trying to make is that freedom always comes at a cost, and I'm asking at what point the cost becomes too great. The cost to the individuals who consume dairy, raw or pasteurized, grass fed and organic or grain fed and pumped full of growth hormones and antibiotics, is one thing. The cost to the land is another issue entirely, and this is where I'm willing to raise objections to the dairy industry, raw and organic or otherwise. Cattle, particularly when raised for dairy where feed and forage must be closely managed and controlled, is very hard on the land. Raising cattle for meat is much gentler on the land because it's easier to incorporate polycultures, although bison are far better adapted to polycultural foraging in temperate climates than cattle and of course no one would remotely consider attempting to milk a bison.

Who cares what the cost is if it is born by individuals of their own choice?

Offline Eric

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2011, 03:58:38 AM »
Who cares what the cost is if it is born by individuals of their own choice?

I care, because the individuals who are making the choice are not the only ones who are bearing the cost. There are many costs not borne by those who are directly making choices. Why should someone who has no direct say in the making of a choice be forced to bear some of the costs?

Offline sabertooth

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Re: RAWSOME Food RAIDED in a MOB style RAID and James (Owner) Taken to JAIL
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2011, 03:01:18 PM »


http://www.infowars.com/infowars-special-with-mike-adams-fda-cdc-perpetuating-culture-of-sickness-and-death/
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.