Author Topic: Alternating high and low carb  (Read 9567 times)

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Offline Diana

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Alternating high and low carb
« on: December 21, 2009, 08:13:24 pm »
Ori Hofmekler recommends alternating high and low carb days to help the body adapt to both carbohydrate and fat burning systems.
Does that make sense? Is the body able to switch that easily?

What happens to someone who is adapted to a low carb diet, then has one or more high carb days, how long will it take afterwards to adjust to the high fat/low carb again? Do you have to start all over again?

Diana



Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 08:17:37 pm »
I wouldn't trust Ori Hofmekler on any issue, really. He's notorious, like most diet gurus, for promoting useless highly-processed supplements just in order to get rich.

As regards switching between high-carb and low-carb, some bodybuilders do that. They will eat low-carb or very low-carb during the weekdays and then splurge on high-carb-consumption at the weekends. They report no issues with this alternating regime, AFAIK.
“Sexual morality — as society in its extreme form, the American, defines it — is contemptible. I advocate an incomparably freer sexual life.”---Sigmund Freud(here, clearly promoting more dubious, sexual practices which should be illegal).

"If only Americans knew, we are bringing them the plague!" ---Sigmund Freud, said to Carl Jung on Freud's trip to America, referring to Freud's nonsensical theories.

Offline majormark

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 09:17:53 pm »

I think that Ori is recomending this alternating high and low carb days in order to enhance the ability to switch between the two types. Most people are already used to both of them, to some degree, anyway.

Offline Neone

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 10:07:44 pm »
If by carbs you mean sugar, i pesonally dont think that its a good idea to go without sugar for a time, then flood your body with it, you will feel it and it wont be nice.

I might eat a grapefruit or something like that from time to time but its more of a treat. We've added in fruits and veggie juices before but I never felt like they added anything, in fact i was struck down with a headache a few mins after drinking a veggie juice yesterday, but that might have been from something else.
That's not paleo.

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 10:15:36 pm »
It's very unhealthy way of eating. Once you are adapted to fat you don't utilize greater amounts of carbs efficiently.
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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 10:59:19 pm »
Ori Hofmekler recommends alternating high and low carb days to help the body adapt to both carbohydrate and fat burning systems.
Does that make sense? Is the body able to switch that easily?

What happens to someone who is adapted to a low carb diet, then has one or more high carb days, how long will it take afterwards to adjust to the high fat/low carb again? Do you have to start all over again?

Diana

High carb increases blood glucose quickly, but can take two to three weeks to return to normal, if normal is high fat/low carb.
Bad idea.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 11:43:30 pm »
The key here is to avoid eating high-carb or very low carb for too long as you then can  develop intolerances to either.Better to switch 1 day to the next, low-carb to high-carb, or rather do what the bodybuilders do which is very low carb on weekdays and high carb on weekends- that way they get the health-benefits of low-carb while not experiencing so much the drop in physical performance routinely  associated with very low carb diets.
“Sexual morality — as society in its extreme form, the American, defines it — is contemptible. I advocate an incomparably freer sexual life.”---Sigmund Freud(here, clearly promoting more dubious, sexual practices which should be illegal).

"If only Americans knew, we are bringing them the plague!" ---Sigmund Freud, said to Carl Jung on Freud's trip to America, referring to Freud's nonsensical theories.

Offline Diana

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 03:17:45 am »
Thanks folks!

So a carb day now and then is not a bad idea if one wants to keep both systems going! I think that may suit me well  :)

Diana

Offline Neone

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2009, 12:33:41 am »
I remember reading something lex said about your body has to spend the time building mitocondria in your cells again to burn fat.. Mabye the less preformance people experience is really that they just havent given their bodys the time to adapt fully.
That's not paleo.

Offline Guittarman03

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 01:45:42 am »
I do just that.  For the 1st 24 hours after I workout (mon, wed, fri), I will eat plenty of carbs.  So if it's a Monday workout, I'll eat lots of carbs until Tue evening, and then switch to fatty steak.  Wed afternoon lunch will be steak again, until just before my workout when I'll flood my body with carbs again in preparation. 

I don't seem to have any problems, but again, I can only get away with this b/c weight lifting greatly increases insulin sensitivity.  Otherwise, I couldn't really justify all the carbs, it would lead to insulin resistance. 

Ideally though, I think it's still better for the digestive tract to be 100% in ketosis w/ a couple large meals per day, or completely sugar burning with 4-6 small meals per day.  The better of the two options being ketosis, as you probably have built up insulin resistance from years of carb overload.

I wouldn't say the differences are too huge, but there is a difference. 
When you consume an organism it loses individuality, but its biological life never ends.  Digestion is merely a transfer of its life to mine.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2009, 02:24:46 am »
I remember reading something lex said about your body has to spend the time building mitocondria in your cells again to burn fat.. Mabye the less preformance people experience is really that they just havent given their bodys the time to adapt fully.
  The greatly reduced performance people experience is permenant re doing  ketogenic diets. Certainly, in the contect of anaerobic activity, at the very least.
“Sexual morality — as society in its extreme form, the American, defines it — is contemptible. I advocate an incomparably freer sexual life.”---Sigmund Freud(here, clearly promoting more dubious, sexual practices which should be illegal).

"If only Americans knew, we are bringing them the plague!" ---Sigmund Freud, said to Carl Jung on Freud's trip to America, referring to Freud's nonsensical theories.

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2010, 09:24:08 am »
Glycogen synthesis is quicker with carbing up because the glucose is already made in your bloodstream.  That doesn't mean you can't make glycogen out of protein.  It's just a slower process, but it's healthier.  I don't think Og was cracked out on carbs running around the whole time. 

I remember when I was in the navy.  I actually ran faster without carbing up than with a carb up.  I ran the fasted 1.5mile ever when I had nothing but meat to eat.  I carbed up on the next test and I was a minute slower.  The thing about zero carb is you have to get enough protein calories to recover.  If you're a stellar athlete, you will need more protein.  Don't worry about ratios and stuff like that.  Measure all your requirements in grams.  I noticed I got weaker in the weights if I don't monitor my protein intake.  If I ate raw without monitoring protein I will get weaker because eating raw doesn't make me have much of an appetite as cooked, meaning I wasn't getting enough protein, and that in turns will explain your weakness in the gym, especially when it comes to the anaerobic workouts. 

We still need carbs to have optimal perfomance, but our bodies are more like cats and wolves.  We want to get our carbs from making it from protein, not from the environment.   
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Offline klowcarb

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2010, 10:34:39 am »
redfulcrum, I love your post and agree with everything except for carbs needed for optimal performance. Glycogen from protein, yes, but not carbs.

Offline van

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2010, 10:44:28 am »
You might like to ponder about;  if you're carbing up, then your also shutting down your ability to efficiently use fat as a fuel source.  This is not my direct experience, but from what I have gathered.  I can tell you for the last almost three years of near zc my ability to use fat as fuel increases consistently over time.   So when you write about getting enough protein.... it just makes me suspicious that you're not able to utilize the energy from fat or that you've neglected to eat enough fat?

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2010, 10:51:12 am »
That's what I meant.  If you follow the gluconeogenesis pathway, you'll see that protein will turn into glucose and then gets polymerized into glycogen.  Same difference.  Your body just makes carbs from protein.  You can't live without carbs .  You will die from a diabetic coma.  That's why your liver makes it.  I'm just saying let your body make it, don't EAT it. 
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Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2010, 11:01:57 am »
Oh boy here we go.  Someone has to open up a biology book.  I can't think of one animal that doesn't have any blood sugar.  Not every cell in your body can utilize fat.  Especially when it comes to your brain and blood.  There are fast twitch and low twitch fibers in muscles also.  Guess what fast twitch fibers use?  You guessed it, glucose.  Actually, it's pyruvic acid, but you need to make it from glucose.  You will not get enough glucose from the glycerol molecules from breaking down fats.  Burning fats is a very slow process.  The energy for sprinting will never come from fats.  It's too slow of a process to release ATP.  That's why nature provided us ANIMALS with the ability to convert protein into glucose.  Why do you think lions rest all day?  They have to build up all that glycogen to be ready for the next hunt.  Can't go around wasting precious energy.  Sitting around chit chatting, that's fat burning.  Reading a book is fat burning.  Taking a walk is fat burning.  But running at full speed away from the cops, that is not being powered by fats, that is being powered by glycogen, which is basically glucose. 
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Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2010, 11:14:36 am »
One more thing, if you don't eat enough protein, you will shrink if you expend a lot of calories.  Fat is not going to replace protein.  I don't care how much fat you eat, you will not maintain your strength or size without eating enough protein. 
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Offline Hannibal

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2010, 05:04:21 pm »
Redfulcrum, what about intramuscular triglicerides?
Excerpt from the interview with dr. Gregory Ellis -
Quote
Al: So fat use controls carbohydrate use; that still doesn’t really tell me that carbohydrates are not better than fat for superior performance.
Ellis: OK, most athletes and scientists believe that exercise endurance is governed by how much glycogen is in their muscles. But how do they explain the fact that muscle exhaustion can occur despite having ample glycogen supplies in the muscles? That is, plenty of glycogen is left, yet exhaustion takes place. Furthermore, glycogen depletion affects only athletes who train nonstop or compete in events lasting more than several hours. For most sports performances, for weight lifting and bodybuilding routines, glycogen depletion is not a factor in muscle fatigue, not at all.
Let’s look at some specific evidence. In 1986, scientists studied the effects of a difficult weight training workout on the fuel used by muscle. Nationally ranked competitive bodybuilders did five sets of fronts squats, five sets of back squats, five sets of leg presses, and five sets of leg extensions. Each set lasted about 30 seconds, with one minute rest between sets. The weights were heavy enough so that ten repetitions proved to be their maximum effort. That is, each set was to momentary muscular failure, where the successful execution of another repetition proved impossible.
It was an extremely difficult program, and the blood lactic acid levels were sky high. By their own admission, it was the hardest program any of them had ever undertaken.
To the surprise of the scientists, muscle glycogen decreased only 40% from the resting values (this was in the thigh muscles). Where did the fuel for energy come from? The immediate energy sources are available, including ATP, which is probably not stored, and some creatine phosphate. However, the amounts of these are very small and barely account for enough energy production to meet the energy demands of one set of one of the exercises, if that. Glucose shunted from the liver supplies some energy. However, this study showed that there was not a significant uptake by the muscle of liver-tagged glucose. The authors were forced to conclude that a large portion of energy came from a source other than carbohydrates.
Energy Source?
Al: And now for the $65,000 question, where did it come from?
Ellis: The $65,000 answer is that it came from from intra-muscular triglycerides. Fats inside the muscle cells have received very little attention. Most body fat is stored in the subcutaneous layer. Some is stored in other sites, especially around internal organs. But, approximately 0.5-1% is stored within the muscles as intra-muscular triglycerides.

Al: That isn’t much.
Ellis: Yes, but it is quickly broken down to acetyl-CoA, which is the chemical that leads to the manufacture of ATP. As intra-muscular fat burns, carbohydrate burning slows. The key is this: as free fatty acid levels in the blood increase, this source of fat enters the muscle and is shunted into storage within the muscle as triglyceride. Fat, from inside the thigh muscles and from the blood, is what supplied the extra fuel for the bodybuilders’ leg program.
I have also performed an intricate experiment with rats treated with estrogen, which sets in motion an ability to supply and burn more fat for fuel. The rats ran for two hours on a treadmill, and the results showed that they used much more fat than carbohydrate for fuel.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/nutrition-diet-articles/1950-all-about-fats-print.html
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Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline redfulcrum

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Re: Alternating high and low carb
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2010, 12:41:15 am »
That's easy to explain.  Just because you have ample supply of glycogen doesn't mean you can keep going past the lactic acid burn.  You'll end up getting acidosis if that was allowed.  That's like holding your breath and trying to stay under water for ten minutes.  Glycogen is used for burst, not sustained movement.  How long do you think you can keep a sprinting pace?  I guarantee not very long. 
Opening Pandora's boxes, one box at a time.