Author Topic: Baldness American indians  (Read 51785 times)

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Online TylerDurden

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2009, 10:16:18 pm »
How do you know how far back in time baldness occurred?

At the very least one can state that baldness started occurring once our apemen ancestors lost the fur all over their bodies.
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Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2009, 12:55:20 am »
At the very least one can state that baldness started occurring once our apemen ancestors lost the fur all over their bodies.

How can one state that? You can say that baldness on certain parts of the body started then, but I'm suggesting that baldness at the top of the head is not one of them. Unless you have some kind of information showing that when human ancestors started becoming less hairy than apes, that male pattern baldness was one of those changes, then I don't see what you have to state that with.

The only way to figure it out would be to do science with people on different diets. If it's truly genetic and diet plays no part, then I will go bald at some point.

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2009, 06:59:01 am »
It would certainly be difficult to determine whether paleolithic skulls were from bald men or men with a full head of hair. However, it seems logical to assume that if other parts of the body are experiencing hair-loss due to genetic mutations , there is no sufficient reason to assume that hair on the top of the head wasn't affected also. Unless you can prove beyond doubt that having a full head of hair is absolutely essential to humans.

The other problem is that baldness, in and of itself, isn't harmful to people in the way that genuine symptoms of ill-health are. I mean if baldness were indeed a symptom of illness, one would also expect bald men to have other symptoms as well as ill people don't usually suffer from just one symptom but a cluster of them. And there are no current studies indicating that bald men are more likely to be ill than men with a full head of hair.
"“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell "“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
? George Washington

Offline wodgina

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2009, 07:44:11 am »
I've noticed that a lot of weaker looking males with poor facial structure, bad posture, that lack muscle tend to age faster and go bald earlier.

Now this is diet related. Not just this generations diet but generations before.

I cut my hair short (number 1 and you can see my scalp) when I know I wont be down the beach for a few days or I can get sun stroke but with a 'number 2' I'm fine with a bit of zinc and a T shirt and I can surf for 3-4 hours. I go from a 'number 1' to a '2' in days as I have thick fast growing hair.

I think bald males which are sexy to women are just good looking guys who happen to be bald.



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Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2009, 09:00:12 am »
I think you're putting the burden of proof too much on my side. If you look at without the preconceived notion that baldness is 100% hereditary I think it would look more likely that it has a dietary component.

Also about the rest of body hair going during evolution, that isn't something that happens to men in their later years of life. Being hairless, or having fewer and finer lighter hairs all over the body, is something humans are born with. Then in some areas, pubic and in men the chest or forearms, during puberty develop thicker and darker hair which stays with them. Baldness, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. Myself, I was born with a full head of hair. Not all babies are, but all babies have full heads of hair (normal babies) WELL before puberty (unlike pubic hair and other body hair) and then when they go bald they lose it well after puberty. It just doesn't fit the profile of comparing it to body hair changes from apes.

Offline invisible

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2009, 01:28:13 pm »
studies do exist, well correlation studies (but that's all that exist for anything really) between baldness and diseases

for example http://healthhubs.net/heartdisease/the-link-between-heart-disease-and-baldness/
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(02)00885-9/fulltext
https://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update1004a.shtml

There is also plenty of sound scientific theory behind baldness being caused by high insulin and blood sugar levels. DHT is thought of as one of the main culprits to hair loss. High blood sugar shuts down Sex Hormone Binding Gobulin, the body then increases hormone production regardless of the levels one actually has. This testosterone is largely unused testosterone just floating around the body and so is converted to DHT and results in hair loss.

By treating insulin resistance (through diet) you can stop such erratic hormone levels. Propecia artifically trys to do this by stopping the conversion of testosterone to DHT, but unfortunately doesn't actually create a healthy hormone balance. Body likely ups estrogen to balance out circulating testosterone causing gyno, loss of sexual function etc.

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2009, 07:45:36 pm »
The trouble is that baldness is not so much influenced by the levels of hormones but by the number of androgen receptors in the hair-follicles receiving those hormones, and those receptors are purely genetically determined.

Secondly, the correlation studies could easily be explained by the fact that baldness is more associated with old age than youngsters, and that older people are more susceptible to heart-trouble etc.due to old age, as opposed to being bald.

The argument re babies usually being born with a full head of hair  is very unlikely, as the first lot of hair generally falls out after birth, with it only regrowing later on.

But, overall, my own personal  reason for viewing baldness as being primarily genetic(male pattern baldness, at any rate), other than the ones I've cited, is that I've seen so many people with a full head of hair who've had awful health-problems  such as diabetes type 2/heart-disease etc. etc, whereas I've known a number of bald people who have lasted for ages without suffering significant issues.
"“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell "“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
? George Washington

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2009, 08:06:57 pm »
Why doesn't any other hair fall out at age then? The top of the head is the only genetic change to hit that way? All other hair changes follow a different, and similar to themselves, pattern?

I guess you have something about unhealthy people with hair, but do you now also see diabetics without cancer? Or cancer patients without diabetes? Must one have all diseases to have any?

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #83 on: March 26, 2009, 08:27:00 pm »
Why doesn't any other hair fall out at age then? The top of the head is the only genetic change to hit that way? All other hair changes follow a different, and similar to themselves, pattern?

I guess you have something about unhealthy people with hair, but do you now also see diabetics without cancer? Or cancer patients without diabetes? Must one have all diseases to have any?


The trouble is that baldness in and of itself is not life-threatening or harmful in any way. People can have symptoms such as a hot forehead or pains in the joints and they then feel discomfort. People who are just  bald do not experience such pain or discomfort, so it really can't be a sign of ill-health per se.

As for hair not falling out of the rest of the body, it seems that hair-loss re pubic hair can also happen due to normal aging:-

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/symptoms/pubic_hair_loss/causes.htm

Also, hair-loss from the rest of the body can occur suddenly due to stress , much like sudden loss of head-hair, but it's not like the gradual decrease featured in male pattern baldness.
And if the genetic component is low or nonexistent, then why is it that women are more immune to baldness than men?

I do agree that baldness can occur as a result of malnutrition or air pollution  etc., but the genetic component seems to be predominant.
"“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell "“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
? George Washington

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #84 on: March 27, 2009, 01:51:12 am »
Now you're saying only a painful symptom can be a disease symptom?

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #85 on: March 27, 2009, 02:00:15 am »
Now you're saying only a painful symptom can be a disease symptom?


I'm saying the odds are against  a condition that causes neither pain or discomfort is highly unlikely to be a symptom. Most symptoms cause some form of discomfort, however small.

You didn't address my point re pubic hair also disappearing with age. As regards hair not on the head or genitals, that is already so sparse that it's understandable that it would generally only  experience baldness/hair-loss only once the 3 hairiest sites on the human body lost most of their hair.
"“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell "“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
? George Washington

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #86 on: March 27, 2009, 02:59:47 am »
I consider losing any hair that is present at your maturation a symptom of ill health somewhere in the body, including pubic hair. I was listening to an interview with someone famous on NPR who had chemo or radiation therapy for cancer and he was talking about getting a hair piece and at the place the guy showed him some fake hair for his pubes as well, as that had also fallen out.

Andrew here has been talking quite a bit of discomfort from baldness actually. I'm not into outside sports (surfing) as much as him so I would defer to him as the expert on his sun stroke episodes that only happen when his head is clean shaven.

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #87 on: March 27, 2009, 06:22:59 am »
Therefore baldness would not be a problem in the colder latitudes where sunstroke was less of a possibility. As regards lack of pubic hair, there are plenty of people who prefer hairless genitalia for sexual purposes.


As regards pubic hair and head-hair, I reckon they're sufficiently different from each other, that the issue of baldness is more likely to be genetic if it affects both. Plus, if hair-loss is generally supposed to be a symptom of ill-health, one would expect hair to also fall out from all over the body whether from the nose or head or genitalia or arm or whatever - which doesn't seem to be the case.
"“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell "“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
? George Washington

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #88 on: March 27, 2009, 06:50:34 am »
I'm not saying it's not genetic, I'm saying everything is genetic and environmental. Clearly two different people on the same diet can be bald or not as is evidenced all the time. I'm suggesting that if someone who is genetically destined to be bald (like myself) gets and stays on a raw paleo diet, it will not happen. Thus, like all other diseases which have both a genetic component and environmental component, it would fit in that category. Nothing is 100% genetic, not eye color or height or anything else, all genes need an environment to express themselves.

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #89 on: March 27, 2009, 06:57:37 am »
Well, given the likes of bald men  like Lex who've recovered in health but (seemingly) not recovered from baldness(apologies, Lex, if you're actually quite hairy but shave your head!), I would disagree. Another point is that some things(such as baldness?) may well be irreversible so that someone starting at 35, say, on a healthy, raw diet may never gain the kind of full head of hair that he/she would have got from eating a raw, healthy diet since birth, even if he or she has recovered , healthwise, in general terms.

Another concern is the detox issue. A number of rawpalaeos have experienced occasional  periods where they every now and then experience some hair-loss but have it grow back within a month or two.
"“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell "“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
? George Washington

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2009, 07:04:40 am »
I'm open to the idea of baldness not being reversible with diet, just like a lot of other things (skeletal formation in particular I think of). Still though I'm confident most baldness would be avoided with proper diet, as most skeletal malfunctions and degenerative diseases would be as well.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #91 on: March 27, 2009, 10:02:09 am »
My dad was thin by the time he was my age but my hair is still thick and from what I have read it's not just your mothers father that you take after but a mixture.

My younger brother seems to have gotten a higher hairline over the last few years but mine seems to be hanging in there. I started raw animal foods at 28 years so that may of helped a bit.

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Offline invisible

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #92 on: April 23, 2009, 08:16:55 pm »
Something else I forgot to mention regarding hairloss and poor health is that stress and toxicity, which are also causes of ill health are known to cause hairloss and not just shedding but MPB. Example; a course of accutane beyond doubt initiated male pattern baldness while I was still a teenager. It still angers me that I took that stuff and lost so much hair.

Offline habit

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #93 on: June 29, 2009, 10:51:20 pm »
native american  ate cooked meat.. Maybe it was the cooked meat that gave them there hair? How do you know though? I can easily say there cooked meat was the reason for the hair then saying it was raw meat..

to say a raw meat diet will bring a long healthy life and you'll never lose your hair sounds like a snakes oil saleman.

diet is powerful but its not everything, its only fuel.  Paleo man got sick and ill too....

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #94 on: June 30, 2009, 03:40:27 am »
I've stories of baldness reversed - one was a farmer who bent over to fix a fence, a cow licked his bald head and hair then grew back. The other is of a man who was struck by lightning.
I've never heard of anyone brave enough to try either way.   ;)


Native Americans ate cooked meat after contact with pot-selling Europeans. Many ate at least some raw before. IMHO
Paleo man never was ill, so say his bones, otherwise we would be nuts to eat paleofood.

Offline Guittarman03

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2009, 08:57:04 am »
You have it backwards.  The pot smoking Indians were sold fire-water and made to eat cooked meat by the drunken Eurpoeans.
When you consume an organism it loses individuality, but its biological life never ends.  Digestion is merely a transfer of its life to mine.

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #96 on: December 27, 2009, 04:45:58 pm »
Well, given the likes of bald men  like Lex who've recovered in health but (seemingly) not recovered from baldness(apologies, Lex, if you're actually quite hairy but shave your head!), I would disagree. Another point is that some things(such as baldness?) may well be irreversible so that someone starting at 35, say, on a healthy, raw diet may never gain the kind of full head of hair that he/she would have got from eating a raw, healthy diet since birth, even if he or she has recovered , healthwise, in general terms.


Does the fact that Lex recently reported that his hairloss has stopped and that the remaining thin follicles on top of his head have possibly thickened change your mind? Del Fuego has mentioned that the hair from his temples that had receded grew back and his grey hair went back to his natural colors. A slew of others on the zc board have reported the similar things as well. Even some of the women have reported a decrease in hair loss.

Also to add, I just remembered reading a very long thread a while ago on pre-world war II baldness rates in Japan and so did a quick a search and found this which would imply that diet could potentially be a huge piece of this. Amount of nutrition could be another as they might not have eaten as much. Obviously, they think its the fat that causes the baldness but Im sure you get the point.

http://www.mangoboss.com/FattyDietsLinkedtoMaleBaldness.html
Quote
Although not all of the research has been conclusive, there does appear
to be  link between baldness and diet.  Societies that consumed
relatively low-fat diets ---such as pre-World War II Japan ---
experienced almost no pattern baldness
.  But post-World War II
Japanese men have started to experience higher and higher levels of
pattern baldness as their society consumes more Western-style fatty
diets.

In fact, one study by a leading manufacturer of men's wigs in Japan,
the Anderans Co. Ltd, found that baldness and thinning hair has
skyrocketed with the increasing popularity of Western fatty foods like
hamburgers and fries.  Aderans  found that the percentage of balding
men increased  almost 200% in less than 20 years, from 6.2 million
men in 1987 (8.1%) to 11.4 million men just 17 years later.  


They go on to say native americans dont go bald either.

Edit 2: Did a little more searching and there isn't actually reliable data for the Japanese just anecdotal evidence

http://www.hairloss.com/home/hair-loss-and-baldness-in-japan.html

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #97 on: December 27, 2009, 06:08:18 pm »
Does the fact that Lex recently reported that his hairloss has stopped and that the remaining thin follicles on top of his head have possibly thickened change your mind? Del Fuego has mentioned that the hair from his temples that had receded grew back and his grey hair went back to his natural colors. A slew of others on the zc board have reported the similar things as well. Even some of the women have reported a decrease in hair loss.
In raw diet circles, it's quite common for people to lose hair and regain it, a common detox symptom, and raw dieters, such as on the Primal Diet, have also noticed hair returning to a non-grey state or getting back a few hair-follicles. But, generally speaking, getting back a full head of hair after going bald is so unlikely that anyone claiming such is highly likely to be telling lies.

As for mentions of Japanese etc., this is very highly misleading. For one thing, different ethnic groups have different rates of baldness(East Asians and Native Americans who are, of course, descended from East Asian areas) are well known to resist baldness, regardless of what diet they are on.
"“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell "“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
? George Washington

Offline raw-al

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #98 on: September 12, 2010, 01:52:54 am »
You have it backwards.  The pot smoking Indians were sold fire-water and made to eat cooked meat by the drunken Eurpoeans.
LOL,
I am siding with Raw Kyle. ;D
My dad was just about bald in his 20s. I am 57 and my GF says my hair is starting to grow back lately. I have much more hair than him. I am a 23 year veteran of vege diet. Only thing that has changed is RPD and Aajonus Vonderplanitz suggestion of raspberries/cream/honey/coconut before bed which also stops my snoring.

My hair started falling out when I left home and went from drinking pasteurized skim milk at home (yuk) to drinking lots of pasteurized whole milk. Other issues started then but that's another story. Raw milk is fine. I am not suggesting raw milk is the answer BTW, it just works for me.

BTW my exes dad used to  rub his fingernails together and he claimed it made his hair grow back. He went from shiny to hair regrowth. Go figure that one out.

The aboriginal North Americans were well known to be very healthy, tall, strong, have beautiful features and beautiful hair and no beards. This is based on the reports of the early explorers. The fact that most of them were wiped out by European diseases skews the subsequent study of them. Initial estimates of the population of NA was around 1/2 million at the time of European contact, but subsequent study shows the # at 75 million and climbing.

So the people in any photos of ANA would be the survivors of the onslaught of white man's diseases and therefore their appearances would not be reflective of the majority of their ancestors.

Ayurveda says that salt consumption will cause gray hair. Long explanation.

I have a theory on baldness which I will save for another post, but as I said I am with Kyle in the diet as causal root. (no pun intended)
Cheers
Al

Offline wodgina

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Re: Baldness American indians
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2010, 04:06:55 am »
My hair is still thick which I'm happy about but started going grey very young. I've got salt and pepper hair and people keep telling me I'm getting greyer but I don't think it's got worse since starting RPD they're probably just stirring.
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