Author Topic: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities  (Read 41709 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JaredBond

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Gender: Male
  • Crap, my real email is blueyoshi55@hotmail.com.
    • View Profile
Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« on: July 13, 2009, 01:18:02 pm »
This is a response to Raw Kyle and others in the topic "Fan of Price's work".  I'm answering here because I think it's important enough that even passerbys should see it, and also because it's been almost a year since anyone's responded in that topic.

Anyways, I was glad to see that someone linked to the exact article I was influenced by at the time:  "Is it Mental or is it Dental" by Raymond Silkman, from the WAPF website (http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/facial-development.html).  However, that article doesn't illustrate what he does to actually treat his patients.  I wrote to Silkman, thinking maybe it was surgery, but he responded back saying he uses an "ALF Lightwire" device to expand the upper palates of people.  I'm not sure if he uses anything else, but the thing about ALF Lightwire is that it actually moves the bones of the entire face.  I've seen pictures online (though I can't find them now), and also if you actually see a practitioner they'll probably show you before and after pictures of their patients.

The idea is that a very gentle, steady force (rather than the strong and abrupt force of common expanders or surgery) will properly coerce the bones into moving and adapting, instead of wanting to snap back to their original position.  For instance, according to my practitioner, ALF patients never need a retainer.  And interestingly, the bones know when to stop moving as well- she's never had a patient where the jaw has expanded TOO much.  The second crucial element is giving space for the teeth to move- for example, my bottom teeth are temporarily going to be "built up" so that my bite in front doesn't close.  My theory is that your current bite is actually what's keeping your jaws (and therefore, cranial structure) in its current place, by way of you biting down throughout the day- sort of the same gentle but steady pressure the ALF uses to move the teeth.

I'm kind of filling in the blanks here, but what this sounds like is that your head, face and jaws actually know where they should be, and WANT to move or grow there, if you only give them a chance.  I know you're not supposed to be able to grow past about age 20, but people of ALL AGES do lightwire and it works.  I've seen the dental casts and pictures of a patient treated in her late 60s.  The results were dramatic.  The only downside is that it can take a long time- up to 6 years.  But it can take as little as 1 year, if you're young.  I'm 24 myself, and I'm projected to take 3 years (my Lightwire is currently being ordered).  I'm really hoping for sooner though, as maybe better nutrition than most will speed up the process.  However, I don’t think supplementing with calcium to “grow bones” is a good idea, in case anyone was thinking that.*

The other downside is that it's expensive, at least with the people that I've contacted.  I guess all orthodontics are, but still, it's a tiny piece of metal.  But, it does require a huge amount of expertise to adjust it properly and predict where the bones will go.  Just be prepared for the price.  It's probably going to be about $1000 to get started with someone, $500 for the x-rays (and if you have someone really in depth, they will want all sorts of x-rays and measurements), $400 per visit (once every 1-2 months), and $2000 for braces afterwards.  Some things like the x-rays may be covered by insurance- heck, maybe more.  Tell the insurance people, or get diagnosed for something called "myofascial pain" or TMJ- "temporomandibular joint disorder", or sleep apnea (go to a sleep lab- ask your doctor for an order), and maybe they'll cover some or all of it.  It should be in their books.

You can see if any people doing this are in your area here: http://www.alforthodontics.com/Practitioners%20&%20Labs.htm.  This site is run by Ljuba Lemke, who treats with the ALF and also is one of the key teachers for it.  Her site is http://www.holistichealthsource.com.  You can see pictures of what the ALF can do, top and bottom jaw, here: http://www.icnr.com/cs/cs_05.html.

More info on the ALF:  It was invented by Darick Nordstrom in the 1980s and is manufactured by Murdock Laboratories in Colorado (only place as far as I know).  You can see Nordstrom here in this video (all infomercial-y and ready for mass consumption): 
.  Although, since the 80s, the technology has been improving.  For example, the more lightweight and flexible the metal, the better.  Also, make sure they are attaching it to your 2nd or 3rd back molars, not the 1st, as those have more influence on the bones of the face.  My practitioner, Rebecca Griffiths of Phoenix AZ, says to have worked with Nordstrom and actually convinced him to make this change.

So, while I can't say for sure because I haven't had it yet, this ALF Lightwire seems very promising.  I have some hope it will do something for me, though my head is a bit small and narrow and I don’t think it will change that.  I found this site because I think low carb is the way to proper nutrition, and proper nutrition of me and my parents would have avoided these problems to begin with.  Seeing the changes in Dr. Price’s natives is the first thing that clued me in to that.  I’ll be letting you know how it goes for me.

-Jared Bond, AZ

P.S.  I hope this forum stays up forever, because I reference this site to vegans and vegetarians!

*(Sadly, as expert as my practitioner is at orthodontics, she suggested supplementing with calcium.  Now, I just read in "Gut and Psychology Syndrome", by Natasha-Campbell-McBride, that nutrients compete for absorption with other nutrients in the gut; calcium for instance competes with magnesium, zinc, copper, iron, some amino acids and other things.  When you eat an unnatural amount of any substance, the ratio of the others will be off, creating a deficiency (pg. 197-198).  Plus, supplementing with calcium decreases stomach acid, disrupting the entire process of digestion.  Too much calcium in the blood is also not a good thing- calcium kills brain cells if they are not able to pump it out, as with an MSG reaction.  Besides, bones are mostly synthesized from protein, as Barry Groves points out in his book "Trick and Treat" (pg. 365))



Offline cherimoya_kid

  • One who bans trolls
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,515
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 01:56:28 am »
I've been thinking about getting this done on my daughter and myself.  Let us know how it goes.

As far as mineral supplements go, it's fine to supplement with calcium so long as you take some magnesium.  They balance each other.  I take a lot of dolomite and bone meal every day, which are very calcium-rich, but  balance that with lots of Pascalite, which is very magnesium-rich.  I've had blood work done, and my calcium/magnesium ratio is perfect, and I've been doing that for almost a year now.

Offline wodgina

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,304
  • Opportunistic Carnivore
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 04:29:00 pm »
Interesting, might check those sites out. Might be a good preventative for when I get my wisdoms.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

Offline Stig of the Dump

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 05:13:25 am »
This is a response to Raw Kyle and others in the topic "Fan of Price's work".  I'm answering here because I think it's important enough that even passerbys should see it, and also because it's been almost a year since anyone's responded in that topic.

Anyways, I was glad to see that someone linked to the exact article I was influenced by at the time:  "Is it Mental or is it Dental" by Raymond Silkman, from the WAPF website (http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/facial-development.html).  However, that article doesn't illustrate what he does to actually treat his patients.  I wrote to Silkman, thinking maybe it was surgery, but he responded back saying he uses an "ALF Lightwire" device to expand the upper palates of people.  I'm not sure if he uses anything else, but the thing about ALF Lightwire is that it actually moves the bones of the entire face.  I've seen pictures online (though I can't find them now), and also if you actually see a practitioner they'll probably show you before and after pictures of their patients.

The idea is that a very gentle, steady force (rather than the strong and abrupt force of common expanders or surgery) will properly coerce the bones into moving and adapting, instead of wanting to snap back to their original position.  For instance, according to my practitioner, ALF patients never need a retainer.  And interestingly, the bones know when to stop moving as well- she's never had a patient where the jaw has expanded TOO much.  The second crucial element is giving space for the teeth to move- for example, my bottom teeth are temporarily going to be "built up" so that my bite in front doesn't close.  My theory is that your current bite is actually what's keeping your jaws (and therefore, cranial structure) in its current place, by way of you biting down throughout the day- sort of the same gentle but steady pressure the ALF uses to move the teeth.

I'm kind of filling in the blanks here, but what this sounds like is that your head, face and jaws actually know where they should be, and WANT to move or grow there, if you only give them a chance.  I know you're not supposed to be able to grow past about age 20, but people of ALL AGES do lightwire and it works.  I've seen the dental casts and pictures of a patient treated in her late 60s.  The results were dramatic.  The only downside is that it can take a long time- up to 6 years.  But it can take as little as 1 year, if you're young.  I'm 24 myself, and I'm projected to take 3 years (my Lightwire is currently being ordered).  I'm really hoping for sooner though, as maybe better nutrition than most will speed up the process.  However, I don’t think supplementing with calcium to “grow bones” is a good idea, in case anyone was thinking that.*

The other downside is that it's expensive, at least with the people that I've contacted.  I guess all orthodontics are, but still, it's a tiny piece of metal.  But, it does require a huge amount of expertise to adjust it properly and predict where the bones will go.  Just be prepared for the price.  It's probably going to be about $1000 to get started with someone, $500 for the x-rays (and if you have someone really in depth, they will want all sorts of x-rays and measurements), $400 per visit (once every 1-2 months), and $2000 for braces afterwards.  Some things like the x-rays may be covered by insurance- heck, maybe more.  Tell the insurance people, or get diagnosed for something called "myofascial pain" or TMJ- "temporomandibular joint disorder", or sleep apnea (go to a sleep lab- ask your doctor for an order), and maybe they'll cover some or all of it.  It should be in their books.

You can see if any people doing this are in your area here: http://www.alforthodontics.com/Practitioners%20&%20Labs.htm.  This site is run by Ljuba Lemke, who treats with the ALF and also is one of the key teachers for it.  Her site is http://www.holistichealthsource.com.  You can see pictures of what the ALF can do, top and bottom jaw, here: http://www.icnr.com/cs/cs_05.html.

More info on the ALF:  It was invented by Darick Nordstrom in the 1980s and is manufactured by Murdock Laboratories in Colorado (only place as far as I know).  You can see Nordstrom here in this video (all infomercial-y and ready for mass consumption):  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx5oXFrceB0.  Although, since the 80s, the technology has been improving.  For example, the more lightweight and flexible the metal, the better.  Also, make sure they are attaching it to your 2nd or 3rd back molars, not the 1st, as those have more influence on the bones of the face.  My practitioner, Rebecca Griffiths of Phoenix AZ, says to have worked with Nordstrom and actually convinced him to make this change.

So, while I can't say for sure because I haven't had it yet, this ALF Lightwire seems very promising.  I have some hope it will do something for me, though my head is a bit small and narrow and I don’t think it will change that.  I found this site because I think low carb is the way to proper nutrition, and proper nutrition of me and my parents would have avoided these problems to begin with.  Seeing the changes in Dr. Price’s natives is the first thing that clued me in to that.  I’ll be letting you know how it goes for me.

-Jared Bond, AZ

P.S.  I hope this forum stays up forever, because I reference this site to vegans and vegetarians!

*(Sadly, as expert as my practitioner is at orthodontics, she suggested supplementing with calcium.  Now, I just read in "Gut and Psychology Syndrome", by Natasha-Campbell-McBride, that nutrients compete for absorption with other nutrients in the gut; calcium for instance competes with magnesium, zinc, copper, iron, some amino acids and other things.  When you eat an unnatural amount of any substance, the ratio of the others will be off, creating a deficiency (pg. 197-198).  Plus, supplementing with calcium decreases stomach acid, disrupting the entire process of digestion.  Too much calcium in the blood is also not a good thing- calcium kills brain cells if they are not able to pump it out, as with an MSG reaction.  Besides, bones are mostly synthesized from protein, as Barry Groves points out in his book "Trick and Treat" (pg. 365))

Just had to bump this amazingly useful post.  Thanks!

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,342
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 06:42:27 am »
The Weston-Price forum is in no danger of becoming extinct, though I'm rather surprised it hasn't taken off in the way the Primal Diet forum has. We have 1 very important thread on the WP forum with an online version of Dr Price's book which a lot of people read, so it's here to stay, regardless.
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

Offline jared_madeville

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2010, 02:48:00 am »
I am going through with the ALF procedure as well.  I am seeing James Kennedy of DentoCranial in Grand Junction Colorado.  I was going to go to Dr. Lemke in Durango Colorado, but she was much more expensive and too far for me to travel.  It was $400 to get started with x-rays/molds/measurements.  I have a narrow upper palate along with TMJ issues and maloclusion.  I will try to keep everyone posted on my progression.

Offline RawZi

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,052
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Female
  • Need I say more?
    • View Profile
    • my twitter
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2010, 04:01:56 am »
    Thank you and best of healing to you!   

    So we can fix narrow palates and cranial deformities that happened due to poor nutrition.  How about other bone deformities?  Is osteopathy used for that too? (in addition to diet)  
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline wodgina

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,304
  • Opportunistic Carnivore
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2010, 06:45:29 am »
Hi Jared M!

Please keep us up to date, ALF as well as other orthodontic appliances appear to really open up the palate. I found a dentist where i live who isn't a fan of ALF but said he would do it for $6000! I found another one in Australia  6-8 plane trips away a year for two years plus taxis etc who was very enthusiastic about ALF though.
I had a consultation with the first guy who said my palate wasn't narrow (his idea of narrow) and I wouldnt need much work (2 years max) and recommended going straight to invisalgn. He told not to believe in ALF magic! (i've seen some amazing photos) I personally think I would be a good candidate for it plus my excellent diet.
 
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

Offline wodgina

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,304
  • Opportunistic Carnivore
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2010, 06:54:01 am »
just to add the second dentist trips would work out to be a AUS$1000 (US$900) all up eeek but you can't put a price on health. The second dentist uses ALF then Invisalign.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

Offline wodgina

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,304
  • Opportunistic Carnivore
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2010, 07:17:30 am »
To RawZi, orthodontic appliances can help with curved spines, forward head posture a couple of dentists (Dr Sims an Dr Stacks) are using appliances which cure tics/tourettes. One of the main positives that of broadening of the palate is it dampens the nervous system and allows more room for trapped nerves and tongues. An open palate opens up personalities. It's hard to believe dentist still extract teeth and use old school braces to make nice smiles when theres so many more options out there which are less invasive (but more work/training (less profit))
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

Offline RawZi

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,052
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Female
  • Need I say more?
    • View Profile
    • my twitter
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2010, 09:59:26 am »
To RawZi, orthodontic appliances can help with curved spines, forward head posture a couple of dentists (Dr Sims an Dr Stacks) are using appliances which cure tics/tourettes. One of the main positives that of broadening of the palate is it dampens the nervous system and allows more room for trapped nerves and tongues. An open palate opens up personalities. It's hard to believe dentist still extract teeth and use old school braces to make nice smiles when theres so many more options out there which are less invasive (but more work/training (less profit))

To wodinga,

    Very interesting.  I have one person who seems to have some sort of nervous tick, and had a malocclusion (grew up on formula and total SAD) worked on by a regular dental surgeon.  Another person who had some malnutrition and needed a neck brace for a while.  I'm wondering about long-bones though, like rickets.

    When my palette broadened from eating RAF, I think it helped my personality and my nervous system showed improvement alongside too.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline nummytummy

  • Trapper
  • **
  • Posts: 54
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 11:01:10 pm »
Hi Jared, just wondering if you went through with the ALF lightwire treatment for your jaw/palate realignment and how it went. Have you noticed other positive effects health-wise besides just the realignment of your teeth? Postural balancing or improvements in your mental state, energy levels, digestion, muscular tension, etc?

I'd be interested to know. Thanks!

Offline Hans89

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 11:56:52 pm »
    When my palette broadened from eating RAF, I think it helped my personality and my nervous system showed improvement alongside too.

It broadened just from that?? Really??

Offline JaredBond

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Gender: Male
  • Crap, my real email is blueyoshi55@hotmail.com.
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2010, 04:16:37 pm »
Hi all,

It's me, the guy who started this thread.  I can't write much, because it's hard to write about disappointing news.  And I've been disappointed with the ALF.  And I have what I'd consider to be one of the better ALF people out there:  Rebecca Griffiths (http://www.tmjarizona.com/).  I say that because she focuses on realigning the jaws in addition to the ALF.  But she also sees things through a very rosy lens, if you ask me, and will continue to say that the ALF "moves bones" in the whole face, and also believe in a bunch of other bogus cures.  She eventually has tried to refer me to a cranial osteopath to try to correct my asymmetries, and has remarked that it may not work if I'm not willing to "believe" in it.  The cranio-osteopath will not do even one free session to try to help me decide, and I'm tired of forking out money for bogus treatments.

What has it done?  Well, basically, just splayed out my top teeth.  I'm not done with the treatment, but I don't have high hopes.  I still feel very deficient in the mid and upper face.

Also what I've considered is NCR, as seen here in this youtube video:
.  But seriously, is the guy who invented it credible?  He's also invented this completely bullshit looking thing here (http://www.bodiebox.com/).  Anything that deals with "energy waves" can be written off as pure bullshit in my opinion.  Anyways, I'm not willing to spend $400-$600 and a lot of trauma to find out if NCR is worth anything.

I'm very skeptical about alternative cures these days, and you should be too.  For example, I've seen Mark Starr, who is well known for his "Type 2 Hypothyroidism: The Epidemic" book.  I don't know if you know who he is, but I was shocked to learn that he's a complete con.  You can take that not as my opinion, but a plain fact.  I don't care to go into it, but noting that "kinesiology" and homeopathy are two main pillars of his "treatment" should be enough for you.

There are other forms of ALF devices out there.  I wouldn't expect more out of them than the ALF but I guess it's worth mentioning here.  There's this in Australia:
http://www.myoresearch.com/cms/index.php?professional, and another thing featured on this blog post:  http://ryan-koch.blogspot.com/2010/03/adult-palate-expansion.html.

My goal is to get some sort of cranial surgery done in my lifetime, and I'm probably just going to have to fork out the money.  I've looked into being a research subject in using new techniques to fix the head, as seen here at the UCLA: http://www.uclahealth.org/body.cfm?xyzpdqabc=0&id=307&action=detail&limit_department=22&limit_division=1069.  They say ALL AGES.  But I figure they only want people with more severe cranial deformities.  I dunno, I guess I should try writing to them just in case.  One of the people on the team is Dr. James Bradley, a guy who has WRITTEN the textbook on craniofacial surgery.  They have the best people there.  Anyways, what they are doing trials for, osteogenesis (stretching of craniofacial bones), sounds way better than traditional surgery.  You can get a glimpse of how it works here: http://www.rchsd.org/ourcare/programsservices/c-d/craniofacialservices/advancedprocedures/distractionosteogenesis/A002824.

Matt's girlfriend of 180degreehealth went to this guy:  http://www.arnettcourses.com/.  You can see x-rays of what's been done to her on his blog post here:  http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/06/lose-25-pounds-in-28-days.html.  I like that he does upper face as well.

Before going through with anything though, I'd like to know, what techniques should we use to determine what my head's supposed to look like?  This is probably a question few could really have the right approach to, as few know about Weston A Price, and therefore, what a head is supposed to look like.  All I know so far is that there is the "Sassouni analysis", along with a few others, as seen here: http://www.sassouniorthodontics.com/pages/about.htm.  That's what they use to do the tracing on my x-rays I get with my treatment from Rebecca Griffiths.  But who's to say it's right?  And that reminds me, I have to get the copies of my most recent x-rays, so I can do a conclusive before-and-after comparison to see what's changed, if anything.  The tracing analysis has drastically changed, but I'd have to compare the actual x-rays, not the drawings of them, to be sure.

They use this software to do the analysis: http://www.dolphinimaging.com/3d.html.  I'd love to get it on my computer somehow, but I couldn't find a torrent anywhere.  Heck, I'd love to get my own CT and x-ray machines for that matter, and then charge people to use them :).  Eeeaaaaasy money!

Here's some more organizations that might be helpful:
http://www.baoms.org.uk/page.asp?id=61
http://www.iaom.com/
http://www.iscfs.org/
http://www.researchgate.net/journal/1536-3732_The_Journal_of_craniofacial_surgery

Here's one of Bradley's books online:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ssYcw4GuihgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=experimental+craniofacial+surgery&source=gbs_similarbooks_s&cad=1#v=onepage&q=experimental%20craniofacial%20surgery&f=false

Here's a person with Crouzon's syndrome in the Czech Republic who is currently undergoing many surgeries, paid for by her government (I think).  I don't have Crouzon's, but maybe someone here does.
http://candar.wordpress.com/about/

Well, good luck to anyone in this pursuit.  The only advice I can give is, be very skeptical.  It's a cruel world, and there are sick people out there who will take money from sick people.

Also, I rarely visit this forum, especially because I am NOT low-carb anymore.  I think it can actually be harmful.  In essence, it is entirely plausible that humans have at least been eating various potato-like root vegetables and cooking them since the dawn of time.  It's not that hard to believe that we naturally have eaten starch, as hominids probably got calories from whatever source they could.  And consider this: what if insulin spikes do NOT lead to insulin resistance?  Well, there's actually good evidence that they actually IMPROVE insulin sensitivity, as shown by Matt Stone, when his fasting glucose levels LOWERED after a month of eating a ton of carbs.  I advise you to listen to him and get his free ebook here:  http://www.180degreehealth.com/.  I know we're all desperate (desperate enough to eat raw meat?), but the main message you should get from him is that we need to trust our feelings more.  I even eat sugar again (which he doesn't recommend, but I do).  I'm taken away my acne by merely avoiding omega 6 and polyunsaturates in general, which does not require much willpower at all.

My best explanation for the ills of the world at this point are toxins (including unnatural PUFAs), and malnutrition (perhaps even caused by chronic undereating).

Offline needs_and_wants

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2010, 04:33:57 pm »
Cheers for coming back on and updating. How long have you had the ALF device in, and how long left do you have before you're due to get it out? I've just been for my initial consultation for ALF here (still not had it inserted), im waiting on them to get back to me to schedule my second appointment.
feel, beyond the limitations of the mind, through the eyes of the soul

Offline wodgina

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,304
  • Opportunistic Carnivore
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2010, 04:52:20 pm »
Hi Jared

You should check out Action Hero's transformation before you leave. His jaw and mid facial area have changed dramatically.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

Offline JaredBond

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Gender: Male
  • Crap, my real email is blueyoshi55@hotmail.com.
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2010, 05:35:27 pm »
How long?  About a year and a half.  I wouldn't expect to have it more than 4 months from now.  Trying to wrap things up as best I can.

wodgina:  I checked him out.  (It's here for everyone else: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/before-and-after-photos/before-and-after-or-how-to-grow-a-strong-jaw-on-raw-paleo/msg35471/#msg35471)

No doubt he looks different.  I would like to ask though, how old was he in his first pic?  People still grow from age 20-25, as I've seen in myself.  Looks like he also lost the fat on his face, which makes a difference.  I know that happened to me when I was LC/ZC.

I seen people on this board who look very good and healthy on LC/ZC.  Matt Stone warns of a "low carb honeymoon", after doing low carb himself for 2 years (of course, I think he never really went below 100g/day).  But I dunno, maybe some people can do well on LC long term.  Not me though.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,203
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2010, 04:39:07 am »
"...it may not work if I'm not willing to "believe" in it.
I share your skepticism, as that statement is a hallmark of quacks. Do you have before and after photos to compare and see if you've had any structural change beyond the teeth spreading?

At first blush Dean Howell doesn't look or come across as particularly credible. He is clearly overweight in a fatty way, so his "healthy lifestyle" obviously does not include a healthy diet and I'm skeptical that a balloon would significantly adjust the skull. I won't dismiss it, not having researched it, but I'm not impressed enough to look into it any further.

Quote
... humans have at least been eating various potato-like root vegetables and cooking them since the dawn of time....
Not quite the dawn of time. Besides, wild chimpanzees have been eating fruits for over 5 million years and still get cavities from them--much more cavities than wild carnivores like wolves and big cats. Plus giant pandas have been eating bamboo for many millions of years and still are not morphologically adapted to it, as several of the scientists that study them admit. I have written extensively about both these cases in this forum.

As Dr. Kurt Harris says, just because Stone Agers (or even wild animals) ate a certain food doesn't necessarily make it optimally healthy in the sense that we modern humans tend to think of. There are more pieces to the puzzle, such as morphology.

My guess is that traditionally cooked tubers are much less unhealthy than grains, legumes and some other modern foods, and Kitavans and others seem to handle them OK, but it's just a guess and I'm skeptical that they're optimal foods. If you are determined to eat them, I suggest trying to mimic the low-and-slow traditional styles of cooking.

I tried a modified Paleo diet that included cooked tubers in the past but didn't do well on it. I recently tried re-introducing a small amount of raw fruits into my diet, but found that even that had negative effects. It may be because I have insulin resistance, as I have other symptoms of that.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,342
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2010, 02:46:30 pm »
Tubers are very unhealthy and need a lot of processing, not just cooking to get rid of the toxins(eg:- cassava). Only something like 1% of tubers can be eaten raw, last I checked, and so tubers could only have been eaten in a big way once cooking got started c.250,000 years ago, hardly the dawn of time.

As for LC, the evidence shows that HGs would eat some raw carbs, going up to  as much as 25% of diet by calorie. not necessarily low-carb, that.

As for Matt Stone's stuff, isn't that that nonsense re eating vast amounts of mostly anything even junk-foods?
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. "Ayn Rand

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,203
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2010, 09:04:22 pm »
That's the second time I've seen someone claim on this forum that cooking goes back to the dawn of time, or to that effect. Jared, where did you get that idea--was it from Wrangham?

Tyler, what are the traditional methods of processing tubers before cooking them? I have a friend who eats cooked tubers and doesn't want to give them up. I figure traditional methods would at least be an improvement over modern methods of just baking at high heat. I do have info from a blog on the cooking part of traditional tuber processing--baked at lower temps for a longer time period than the modern baking method.

I think Matt Stone's "Eat More Everything” diet might be just an initial phase of the diet or the mainstay of the diet, but my memory is fuzzy on this.

As I've mentioned before, 25% carbs is only half of the carbs of the average American diet and, if IIRC, the Kitavans eat far more carbs than that (I think Lindeberg reported 70% avg carbs in the Kitavan diet). I consider 25% low carb, as do some gurus who call themselves low carb. This is part of why I find your frequently demonstrated animosity toward low carb puzzling, since I view your own diet as low carb. My guess would be that you eat less carbs than Stone, for example, though I could be wrong.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,904
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2010, 02:19:47 am »
Not quite the dawn of time. Besides, wild chimpanzees have been eating fruits for over 5 million years and still get cavities from them--much more cavities than wild carnivores like wolves and big cats. Plus giant pandas have been eating bamboo for many millions of years and still are not morphologically adapted to it, as several of the scientists that study them admit. I have written extensively about both these cases in this forum.

Say one was to only eat raw meat, and not brush their teeth. If they were then to continue in the same way, but casually add in some fruit, but feel no reliance upon it would they be able to tell if they were in danger of suffering from anything such as cavities in plenty of time before it happened, so that they could ease off or modify their behaviours/choices? Or is it a thing which can occur without significant prior warning(although I highlighted cavities, I'm also interested in other oral conditions with similar causes)?
5-10% off your first purchase at http://www.iherb.com/ with dicount code: KIS978

Offline Paleo Donk

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 664
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2010, 02:57:03 am »
It would make sense to me that wild carnivores, while not suffering dental caries (as far as I know, at least not to the level of chimps) have teeth that have problems like many other animals (perhaps all) as they age. I know that their teeth systematically wear away to the point that they cannot chew their meat and eventually starve.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,203
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2010, 06:52:29 am »
Teeth wearing is a result of literal physical wearing of the teeth and has nothing to do with dental or oral pathologies like caries and gum disease. BTW, nonfrugivorous chimps like the leaf-eating herbivorous mountain gorillas and carnivorous (faunivorous) tarsiers also are much less prone to caries than frugivorous chimps, according to what I've read on this in the past. Carnivores and herbivores do get caries, but not to the extent that frugivores do.

Not only humans, but chimps know to use dental care to offset the effects of the fruit. Chimps reportedly select twigs and sticks from trees that have antibiotic oils (humans also use these trees for the same purpose and sell the oils as "tea tree oil" and neem dental products). This behavior is most likely learned by the youths, probably from a combination of the adults' example and teaching/demonstration. Perhaps chimps notice that these twigs make their mouths feel better, or perhaps they know that not using them can lead to painful gums and maybe they even know that neglect can eventually lead to very painful teeth (caries).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Paleo Donk

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 664
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2010, 07:53:38 am »
Teeth wearing is a result of literal physical wearing of the teeth and has nothing to do with dental or oral pathologies like caries and gum disease.

Yes and perhaps this is obvious to everyone else, but I find it interesting that diet does not protect them from succumbing to non-functional teeth. Seems like we will die unfortunately.

Offline JaredBond

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 33
  • Gender: Male
  • Crap, my real email is blueyoshi55@hotmail.com.
    • View Profile
Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2010, 05:04:57 pm »
That's the second time I've seen someone claim on this forum that cooking goes back to the dawn of time, or to that effect. Jared, where did you get that idea--was it from Wrangham?
Sorry- I'm probably not as well read as y'all.  I came up with the cooking tubers idea myself as a way to reconcile with the new idea that maybe humans can handle carbs.  The prehistory/evolutionary standpoint is huge chunk of the no carb argument, but really, should we base our lives on some very scant and vague evidence, either way?  What did they base the fire c.250,000 years ago thing on-- that we have found no ash layers in caves below this time?  Well, maybe not in the few specific places we've looked, or can look.  Actually, that's one of the farther back estimates I've heard; seems like adaption could have definitely taken place since then.

The thing is, it's entirely plausible that prehistoric humans/hominins were smarter than we're making them out to be, in terms of processing and storing food.  Hunger is a feeling that we work to avoid, and they probably did too.  I take it even farther-- I think that agriculture was not out of their means as well.  The concept is pretty self evident, if you want more of a plant that feeds you.  Grains are questionable because they are so small and inedible-- I think our first attention to grains started with beer actually.  It's also not a leap to think that hominins might have messed around with leaving things in water, and found that mashed-up seeds did something.  As they've hypothesized with the Egyptians, bread came soon after, originally intended as a storage device to harbor the beer-making yeast in the raw center.

I even wonder why humans have such a sweet tooth, when apparently, at least in most places in the world, there is such a short supply of fructose.  Well, with all of those graphs of how low sugar and honey consumption was pre-1850, I think one source they probably are not accounting for is jams and jellies.  This is actually where I think people have been getting their fructose throughout history.  It was probably a good way to store and concentrate the calories from large yields of fruit.  Trade is certainly plausible too, just like Lewis and Clark found networks trading sea-salt (pretty sure).  And wasn't it the Native Americans that showed the Europeans how to make maple syrup?  What should we trust more: the numbers or our senses?

That said, humans most likely do consume more fructose than ever before.  This could be because:
1) We just like the taste of quick easy calories, or
2) We have an unnatural modern attraction to it for its LDL cholesterol, uric acid, or triglyceride raising effects, which are what the body tries to do on its own in the case of metabolic syndrome.  I've also heard (raypeat.com) that it's good for the adrenals somehow.

Tyler, what are the traditional methods of processing tubers before cooking them? I have a friend who eats cooked tubers and doesn't want to give them up. I figure traditional methods would at least be an improvement over modern methods of just baking at high heat. I do have info from a blog on the cooking part of traditional tuber processing--baked at lower temps for a longer time period than the modern baking method.
I think of how WAP said the aboriginies cooked their vegetables at very high temps for very long times.

Here's something that confuses me-- they say potatoes are a good source of vitamin C, but isn't it destroyed by the heat?

I think Matt Stone's "Eat More Everything” diet might be just an initial phase of the diet or the mainstay of the diet, but my memory is fuzzy on this.
Yes, it's just a tool to correct low metabolism, according to him.  He doesn't say it should be long term, or that everyone should do it.

Also, I have a thread going about this in the LC/ZC forum.