Author Topic: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities  (Read 39168 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2010, 08:49:20 pm »
Seems like we will die unfortunately.
Yeah, I had taken that pretty much for granted. :D
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2010, 08:59:31 pm »
Sorry- I'm probably not as well read as y'all.  I came up with the cooking tubers idea myself as a way to reconcile with the new idea that maybe humans can handle carbs.  The prehistory/evolutionary standpoint is huge chunk of the no carb argument, but really, should we base our lives on some very scant and vague evidence, either way?
Are you assuming that someone here does?

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  What did they base the fire c.250,000 years ago thing on-- that we have found no ash layers in caves below this time?
No, instead of trying to guess how that figure was arrived at (and others), why not look into it, if you're interested, and decide for yourself? I suspect that 250,000 years is probably a conservative estimate. I don't know what the exact correct date is myself and don't particularly care, as I see it as largely irrelevant. As I've noted many times before, the giant panda still hasn't adapted morphologically to its bamboo diet after millions of years of eating mostly bamboo. No one knows that we have adapted to cooking-they just make that assumption to support their practice of eating cooked food. The best test is to do what we have done here and try both cooked and raw diets and see which you do best on.

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  Well, maybe not in the few specific places we've looked, or can look.  Actually, that's one of the farther back estimates I've heard; seems like adaption could have definitely taken place since then.
MAYBE it could have--but NOT definitely. No one knows definitely--even Wrangham admits he doesn't know for certain. It sounds like you're looking for justification for your current practice rather than seeking the truth. If you want justification, you won't get it here in a raw forum.

Good luck with whatever path you choose.  :)
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2010, 08:38:39 am »
As I've noted many times before, the giant panda still hasn't adapted morphologically to its bamboo diet after millions of years of eating mostly bamboo.

But, a bamboo diet would still give it a better quality of life than any other food..?
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2010, 09:13:16 am »
But, a bamboo diet would still give it a better quality of life than any other food..?
Based on what? I don't know what the "optimal" diet for giant pandas would be from a human "quality of life" perspective, but the evidence is pretty clear that their morphology is still highly carnivorous, they are not completely adapted to bamboo, and certain issues they suffer even in the wild (such as low fertility) have been linked to this incomplete adaptation.

We can't get into the minds of the pandas, of course, but it's just as plausible (and probably more so) that they eat bamboo because they like it than because their health does better on it than other foods.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline JaredBond

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2010, 04:08:41 pm »
Edited-- sorry, it was late, I have to think about what I wrote... hope you're not writing a long response :(

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2010, 12:00:07 pm »
Edited-- sorry, it was late, I have to think about what I wrote... hope you're not writing a long response :(
Luckily I don't think I saw your original version. ;D BTW, if you're planning on refuting what I wrote about giant pandas, I would appreciate it if you'd check out my past posts and cited sources on the subject, so I don't have to rehash much. Giant pandas appear to contradict a number of sacred cows, so it requires a very open mind to be willing to investigate them much, but I highly recommend it (I've also found comparing herbivorous and faunivorous primates to frugivorous primates to be rather interesting). My tolerance for rehashing is gradually diminishing on this forum as I learn more and as what's left that's new to me thereby decreases. I believe I still have a lot to learn about giant pandas and other subjects, but when I'm not learning anything new, my interest tends to wane. I'm much less into debating than learning, believe it or not, though debating can be useful in putting new ideas to the test. I'll try to avoid getting cranky, though. Not easy for an ol' grump like me. ;)
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2010, 10:01:43 pm »
I wonder if all species are somewhat maladapted to the current environment since the earth has warmed substantially in the last 10k years. With some species such as the panda having the worst of it though lucky enough to find an ecological niche to survive. Perhaps their diet included more meat when it was colder(?) Other species such as humans clearly took a wrong turn once the megafauna died out and became addicted to grain. I wonder if the great cats would be better fed and would not have the teeth issues if the larger game with more fat reserves were around. Isn't it true that the animals like the mammoth (and elephant) are a higher percentage of fat than the other African deer-type species? Also, I would assume the colder weather would likely necessitate a larger amount of body fat for all animals, especially in the winter.

The same thing kind of thinking can be applied to all species since the earth has (I believe) been cooler than it is now for a much higher percentage of the time. Perhaps frugivorous primates did not have the selection of fruit they do now and suffer some mild consequences with some cavities that they would not have been exposed to in the past.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2010, 08:17:50 am »
I'm going too off topic, and it's one of my areas of interest, so I stuck my reply into a new panda thread: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/incomplete-adaptation-giant-pandas-humans-and-more/msg39709/#msg39709
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline letifer

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2010, 01:53:00 am »
Hi Jared,

Thanks for posting the update. I had been doing research on my options for orthodontics and had remembered this thread. I think my problems may be simple enough to correct with invisalign or an alf like device. I'm not sure if I should go to a typical dentist, an osteopath, or an md specializing in this field for a consultation. I know my  palate needs to be widened and teeth straighted (neither are really that bad) and want to do it with as minimal invasion as possible. I don't think I need surgery, although it was recommended to me some years ago when I was diagnosed with sleep apnea. I am curious to know any further progress or direction you're going in.

Interestingly enough, I have also been off the raw paleo diet for some time now (I still eat raw on a weekly basis, but probably 90% cooked now). And have recently been eating increasing amounts of cooked starches in large part to reading matt's blog since cooked low carb wasn't doing alot for me. Although I think Matt has some good ideas,  I take what I read there with a large grain of salt. In other words it's a good blog to get ideas from, but best to experiment yourself. His approach of overfeeding to up the metabolism is simplistic. I think the best take away I've had is really the importance of eating enough. Forcing calories down has not had any benefit for me, although I have not really tried the full 30 days of overfeeding as I don't think the approach is what I need, nor do I think it's the most intelligent approach to healing a metabolism.

I will say in passing that when I was raw paleo there were sometimes when my palate seemed wider and and more willing to move into place. This usually occurred when I ate bone marrow or suet in large quantities. Interestingly I have experienced this same effect of temporary widening on a cooked diet + supplements (magnesium). It seems to occur more at random or when taking magnesium supplements (but this is also not reliably observed). Unfortunately it never stays like this and my skull/jaw eventually reverts to a compressed state, I think the bite alignment may have alot to do with creating a sort of "setpoint". It definitely feels like my jaw wants to move forward and I am constantly jutting it forward as that is the most comfortable for me, but it keeps getting put back when chewing or sleeping. I have noticed other people will vary slightly in the definition of their jaw/chin from a day to day basis, always reverting back to a set point of sorts. I think stress/hormones have something to do with it... as far as jaw definition I have noticed lifting and sprinting seem to improve jaw definition and sleep deprivation worsens it considerably.

Anyway keep us posted. I will try to comment as well if I decide to go with any treatment.
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Offline JaredBond

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2010, 08:43:28 am »
Hi guys,

I stopped the ALF treatment a few months ago.  But I didn't feel like writing more about it then because it was just too disappointing.  I wasted thousands of dollars, and my bite is non-functional, because I have "buildups" on the molars, and looks stupid with the teeth all jutting forward in front.  Chewing is painful.  I'm a mess.

Anyways, I wasn't completely convinced that the ALF did nothing for my skull until I put together this video of before and after x-rays.  See it here:



It wasn't the best quality "after" x-ray-- it's all my practitioner would provide me at the time.  I had to resize it and turn it to match it up properly, which is what they should have done too, if they really wanted to discover the truth.

I also sent a letter to Dr. Nordstrom, the inventor of the ALF, since my practitioner had been with him discussing my case and how "successful" it was.  But also I was complaining.  He's responsible for sucking people like me in with his claims as anyone.  He responded defensively-- basically you can see his comments on the youtube video.  I could have replied, but it's just no use.  These people are going to believe what they want.  Let the buyer beware.

One thing I didn't clarify with him-- I still believe the ALF may change the bones in the head when used in a developing child.  So yeah, parents should definitely try this as opposed to extracting teeth, or harsh palate wideners that expand in intervals when you turn it with a key, as I had when I was a kid.  The most striking evidence of this was an experiment done with identical twin girls, which you can see pictures of in this article: 

http://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/1733-from-attention-deficit-to-sleep-apnea.html

Unfortunately for the less fortunate twin, it was the standard practice of the time to remove teeth for crowded palates.  Only x-rays like my own would tell for sure what the differences there were in skull development, but it would be downright cruel to repeat this experiment.

But in adults, as far as I know, there is no such evidence.  So I wouldn't believe it.  It's kind of a ridiculous idea, but I was desperate to believe it, as I'm sure many are.

I should write to the WAPF to warn others, because I do think they're at least honest.  But I just don't have the will to.

I'm quite self-conscious about my looks.  I wonder if it's simply a major impediment in my life, or the major impediment in my life.  It's a terrible curse.  I'd think I have "Body Dismorphic Disorder" if there weren't evidence that this is an actual deficiency.  I wasn't supposed to be like this.

Basically the only way to even sort of fix this is craniofacial surgery.  I was trying to go the cheaper and more natural route with the ALF, but it just didn't work.  It's just disheartening to think that I'd have to fight so hard to even get a chance of having the personal confidence that most other people have never had to worry about.  And if it looked the least bit weird, it would still suck.  People want good nature, not a damn surgery.

I shouldn't be so disheartened though.  I've seen a few really good results with surgery.  I'd just want to make sure I got the best.  You know, with full 3d modeling and manipulation.  Ideally there could be someway to tell what my skull was supposed to look like, but I doubt anyone does that.  Because that's the only way I could be sure it could look natural.  It seems as though my whole skull should be expanded, but I don't know if they do that.

Like see, this isn't bad:



And there's this.  That's like, WHHHOOOOAAAAA.



But yeah, the biggest obstacle of course is the money.  And especially because I don't want just anybody, but really the best that can be done for me.  But I don't have money, and I can't get money.  I don't even want to work because I'm so depressed and fatigued all the time.  What to do guys?  Shit just sucks.  I'm 25.  I'd think that it has to be soon or never.  I still have a youthful body that could heal well, but that probably won't last much longer.

As for my fatigue, I'm trying a shot in the dark liver treatment I found on Google.  See here:  http://www.sensiblehealth.com/.  Sorry to get off-topic again, but please feel free to give any advice.

:'(

... I have also been off the raw paleo diet for some time now (I still eat raw on a weekly basis, but probably 90% cooked now). And have recently been eating increasing amounts of cooked starches in large part to reading matt's blog since cooked low carb wasn't doing alot for me. Although I think Matt has some good ideas,  I take what I read there with a large grain of salt. In other words it's a good blog to get ideas from, but best to experiment yourself. His approach of overfeeding to up the metabolism is simplistic. I think the best take away I've had is really the importance of eating enough. Forcing calories down has not had any benefit for me...


Nice to hear it.  Yeah, I briefly tried overfeeding too, but it didn't work for me.  Then, more recently, he suggested people try eating a high protein breakfast, and 80% of their calories within the first half of the day.  This is an interesting idea, and seems to jive with stories I've heard of how wealthy successful businessmen in the old days used to get up early and have a ridiculously large meat-filled breakfast.  Successful?  Wealthy?  Early?  Yes, sounds good to me!  But no, I tried it, and I just get too fatigued when I eat a meal that large.  This would make sense if I have trouble digesting, which may go with the current theory about the liver that I gave the link to above.

So yeah, I'm skeptical of Matt too, but boy does he continue to seek answers and learn more.  He's determined to figure this stuff out better than anyone, and what a value to our society to have someone like that.  At least he got us unafraid of carbs so far. :)


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2010, 09:09:57 am »
Thanks for confirming my suspicions, Jared, although the "after" image looks a little better than the "before," but that doesn't mean it's actually an improvement, of course. Failure stores are even more valuable than success stories. They warn us what to avoid. I'm just sorry you had to experience the failure for the rest of us to learn from it. I hope you do share your experiences with the WAPF, and if they ignore them then I hope you do some sharing with WAPF followers, such as at the WAPF blog, here: http://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/279-mental-or-dental.html.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hans89

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2010, 05:56:48 pm »
Jared,

is your situation really that desperate? Can't you live with what you have? I think there are many ways for healing besides manipulating the jaw / skull. Some things we just have to accept. That doesn't mean they won't change later, but for the sake of inner peace accepting may be the best for now.

Offline Hans89

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2010, 02:55:35 am »
I just had an idea... not sure if it's a good idea and possibly harmful... What if I put pressure on my nasal cavity... I would do that by either closing my nose with my fingers or closing the airstream inside my nos by contracting the muscles in there and exhaling at the same time. Could that encourage a widening of the airstream / skull? Just an idea, maybe somebody can comment on it.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2010, 04:08:09 am »
Long before you widened your skull, if it were somehow possible, you'd likely damage your eardrums, sinuses or even brain, according to Professor Adam Carey, a sports injury specialist:

"The second type of injury is caused if we try to suppress a sneeze, before letting it out. The suppression causes a massive build-up of pressure in our head, which can cause injuries such as a burst eardrum, tearing blood vessels and muscles in the head, damaging the sinuses and even, in rare cases, brain haemorrhages."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1223959/Burst-eardrums-broken-backs-death--dangers-sneezing.html#ixzz11EYsqfo6
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline JaredBond

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2010, 11:45:43 pm »
I just had an idea... not sure if it's a good idea and possibly harmful... What if I put pressure on my nasal cavity... I would do that by either closing my nose with my fingers or closing the airstream inside my nos by contracting the muscles in there and exhaling at the same time. Could that encourage a widening of the airstream / skull? Just an idea, maybe somebody can comment on it.


Maybe that would be something like what this guy does?



I knew about this video for a while but was reluctant to post it here, because basically I don't believe it does anything.  But whatever, feel free to judge for yourself.

is your situation really that desperate? Can't you live with what you have? I think there are many ways for healing besides manipulating the jaw / skull. Some things we just have to accept. That doesn't mean they won't change later, but for the sake of inner peace accepting may be the best for now.


It sure is desperate.  Like I said, I'm not sure how much of a problem it is for me, because I have two other major problems: cognitive difficulties (lifelong) and chronic fatigue (since teen years).  I've had a frustrating and confusing life, because I've been so inhibited in these ways.  I've been severely depressed for about 7 years-- the lack of being able to live normally has really taken its toll.  But anyways, if I am to have any hope of ever recovering, I at least know what needs to be done with this problem.  And, like I said, I don't think I could get the best results if I waited much longer.

I think it is a major inhibition in my life.  I notice that ugliness makes me restrain confidence, in any situation.  I'm not terrible looking, but my ambitions and standards are probably above your average person's.  I can't really guess what a change in appearance might do for me.  But it is important.  People respond better to good nature, whether they want to be biased or not.  On a movie poster, it's the movie star's face that tells the whole story, and gets people in the theater.  It's a delicate subject, but, there are doctors who do it.  And, maybe it'll even fix (or make up for) the other two problems.  At worst, I have nothing to lose, because I can't live this way, whatever the problem.

Anyways I'm planning to write to some craniofacial surgeons around the world.  I dunno, maybe they'll take pity on me, or have some grant money or something.  I know, it's unrealistic, but I just want to gather my feelings and get on the map.  Money is the main issue.  Maybe they'd just let me acquire a debt, or have some other suggestions.  I'd have to write a better letter than this, but whatever man, I just stayed up all night and I'm POSTING IT.  :)

Offline Hans89

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2010, 01:05:10 am »
I thought the effect would be more like this:

They access it through the nose, they use pressure... but maybe the pressure needs to be so high it would blow your eardrums lol... no idea...

You posted that stuff about Matt Stone and Insulin posts, right? Have you tried RRARF and to what effect?

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2010, 04:18:31 am »
    Thank you everyone.  I don't have anything to contribute, but it's good reading and watching/listening.

    Do you have a recommended way to find a good specialist?
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Offline JaredBond

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2010, 03:04:38 pm »
You posted that stuff about Matt Stone and Insulin posts, right? Have you tried RRARF and to what effect?

I did answer this, but, I know, there's a lot of writing to get through here.  No, I didn't have any effects, but like letifer mentioned, Matt's point might be good at least for getting people to eat enough.  I like the idea that calories are good for you; and if you are to get enough, it's probably easier by including carbs.  Don't be afraid of glucose-- cells put it to good use!  Well, unless you have a problem managing glucose levels, which I can't help you with there.

Also, I've also posted on NCR... just look for it earlier in this thread.  Should be easy to find because I have that same youtube video there.  I give my reasons for not trusting that either.

    Thank you everyone.  I don't have anything to contribute, but it's good reading and watching/listening.

Yeah, and I'm thankful for my small audience here!  I actually hope to reach a larger audience someday on this important and overlooked subject.  We'll see if it works out for me...

Offline Hans89

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2010, 06:34:08 pm »
I did answer this, but, I know, there's a lot of writing to get through here.  No, I didn't have any effects, but like letifer mentioned, Matt's point might be good at least for getting people to eat enough.  I like the idea that calories are good for you; and if you are to get enough, it's probably easier by including carbs.  Don't be afraid of glucose-- cells put it to good use!  Well, unless you have a problem managing glucose levels, which I can't help you with there.

It's not like I'm asking for help lol.
I'm experimenting with the RARF and it's been doing me a lot of good. I'm tolerating food a lot better now. Dairy is still highly problematic though. Recently I've added lots of spices, increased fat (was very low before, almost no added fat), added some sugar (rapadura) and keeping protein rather low. My energy is increasing, working out feels better than in a long long time, but sleep still sucks. I believe that is due to non-diet-related causes though. Dabbling in ayurveda now...

Quote
Also, I've also posted on NCR... just look for it earlier in this thread.  Should be easy to find because I have that same youtube video there.  I give my reasons for not trusting that either.

Yeah, I saw that you posted it before. But I didn't watch the "Face Restructuring" video properly... He does mention NCR and he says he is using the same principles... For sure I wouldn't try NCR, it seems so bogus. I'll try what the guy in the video suggests, after all it's for free.

Offline letifer

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2010, 12:29:39 pm »
Thanks so much for posting your video Jared. That is extremely valuable and cautionary hard evidence. I just saw the updates to this thread today, which is unfortunate because I thought I was subscribed to receiving new posts...

I've seen 2 conventional orthodontists in the past month for consultations for damon braces and invisialign. Invisialign seems like a clear loser as far as widening the palate is concerned. Damon braces on the other hand appear to have this potential, but I was unable to get either ortho to really say whether this was a realistic expectation. The first said that any growth at my age "was likely done", and the second just said the invisalign and the damon system were going to achieve the same results.. I did not directly ask if the braces would make my palate wider, I've been meaning to write an email to her. I did some research on the braces system afterward and found this: http://www.ormco.com/index/damon-casestudies-crowdedcases-2

The right column has the adult cases and if you go down to the bottom of the pdf files they show measurements of the lateral width of the palate. I cannot seem to unequivocally find out if this is actual bone growth that's going on or mere repositioning of the teeth. Part of their marketing is that these are cases that would have required extractions with regular braces, but that due to the increased space created, extractions were not required. Treatment for me would be 12 months and 6-7k. Honestly I am not looking forward to have metal in my mouth for a year which is why the invisalign alternative was appealing to me, but I get the impression invisalign is kinda worthless except for straightening teeth which I am not all that interested in. I have an appointment to see a dentist that uses the homeoblock to inquire about it. Short notice I know, but do you guys think I should ask anything in particular?

As a side note, I think I have experienced some changes facially naturally from weight lifting, jaw exercises, (really just pushing the palate with the tongue) and trying to sleep with my mouth close and on my back, etc. My palate is not wider, but facial features more favorable. I really don't know if there is any structural changes, but I think the facial muscles have a lot to do with the way your face looks. The tongue is nature's orthodontic device, so I think you can manipulate it to achieve somewhat minute facial changes. I don't know that it's enough when you're an adult to make any permanent changes though..

As a word of encouragement Jared, I have the same obsession with looks, but I know in many ways it doesn't matter nearly as much as I think it does. It's sure to vary based on your profession, but I can tell you the majority of people don't really care how you look compared to how you perform. I know and have met attractive people with symmetrical faces and broad smiles that are idiots. Most successful people I meet are unattractive and alot of attractive people unsuccessful. There seems to be some truth to the stereotypical "popular jock in high school becomes underachiever and nerd in high school becomes successful" narrative. I think good looking people tend to coast on their fortune, where as others have to compensate by overachieving in some other area. Now I'd be lying if I said I didn't hope for some aesthetic enhancement if I do go with some treatment, but if can get my mouth to the point where my tongue fits and I can breath well and chew properly, yet look exactly the same, I would be ecstatic. I'm more afraid of unfavorable aesthetic changes at this point. Anyway, keep eating nutritious food, healing your digestion (enzymes and kefir are working for me, dropped all other supplements save vit. D), getting proper sleep, reducing stress (so important!) and finding something to enjoy in life. Taking this general approach my thyroid problems finally resolved themselves and my free t3 is in the upper third of normal as opposed to being in the gutter; I feel much better and have a renewed vigor so I know the body can heal and correct itself if you give it what it needs. Cheers mate.
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Offline letifer

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2010, 12:47:50 pm »
To give you guys an update I saw a dentist that works with functional appliances. I had initially been interested in the homeo-block, but he was quick to see that this was not the appropriate device as it would encourage jaw growth downward (think of growth happening rotationally). I was able to look at a book he had of various appliances, and there are at least dozens of these things out there. Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to find a dentist or orthodontics that is well versed in functional orthodontics (it is apparently much more common in Europe). I can't seem to find this book online and I'm not totally sure I got the names right, but a modified Schwartz appliance may be the appliance he chooses for me. I'd wear an appliance on the top and a separate one for the bottom. I will know much more at the next consultation where the analysis of the x-rays and molds has been done. The good news was that treatment would be 9-15 months and half the cost of traditional braces and If I want braces after the functional treatment I think it would be an extra couple thousand. Very reasonable quote imo.

My impression of the guy was pretty good and he took the time to explain things and answer my questions. He's been doing this for 7 years and showed me examples of some of his patients. One case of a 19 yr old was pretty dramatic as he showed me the before/after molds. At any rate I am cautiously optimistic. I've already gotten the molds and x-rays and will probably decide if I will go with it a month from now at the second visit. If I do start I'll be starting in January and could be done (minus braces if I wanted) a year from now best case.

By the way, after visiting here I was reminded I haven't eaten liver in a while. So I've eaten about 1/2 lb of raw liver the past couple days and I could swear my palate seems more relaxed and would expand if the pressure was there. Often times my head feels like it's compressing inward and collapsing, but "loosend" up these past 2 days. My tongue rests a little more comfortably. Take it with a grain of salt as my sinuses also cleared up from a brush with a cold, so it could be something else. Even so there I think there could theoretically be something like a 250nm fluctuation in palatal width in a short time period.
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Offline truthseeker

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2010, 01:45:40 pm »
Hi all, I'm new here to the site.  My family and I have been eating W.P. for about 5 years.... I'm looking to go more raw paleo though.  Anywho I have 3 kids, 9...11...13   and I've been done what I can for them over the past 5 years of finding and eating clean etc.  But it wasn't enough for full genetic cranial expression. 
I found this site (PLEASE scroll down to the bottom of the screen and watch the 2 videos, they're each about 7 minutes long) ....   http://www.orthotropics.com/#   

So for any of you who have young children, please take note that NOW is the time to act if their growth is taking an unfavorable direction.  You would know that by measuring them.  The last paragraph at the bottom of this page entitled "Where should the teeth be?"    http://www.orthotropics.com/patients_parents/parents_earlysigns.html

My oldest daughter (who has been eating a nutrient dense diet for 5 years now) is 13.  It seems most of her growth is done already so we missed out on using it as a guide for favorable growth of down and forward (as well as outward)  of the jaws and palate.  However they are willing to treat her in order to correct her class III mallocclusion aka underbite, with whatever little growth she does have left.... as well as lateral expand her palate.  She has worn the appliance in conjunction with forward pulling protraction gear for 5 weeks now.  We went for an adjustment appointment 2 days ago and they told us to STOP!!!!  They didn't expect so much movement.  The projected treatment time was 4 months to a year.   It was 5 weeks  :-*     I have heard that people who eat nutrient dense diets have faster movement.... but ..... this was crazy.  She's not done yet though, they're giving her a little break on wearing the protraction gear, but in about a week or 2 she's going to have to put it back on.  The expansion is DONE though. 

 
     

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2011, 05:44:24 pm »
Worth a bump.  I have just written an update on the other thread about approaching my first year of using ALFs:

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/a-l-f-where-to-find-them-and-how-to-get-them/msg62838/#msg62838

Offline Waldpfad

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2011, 12:28:06 pm »
Hi guys,

I know this is an old post but I thought I'd post my experience here.

 "Now I'd be lying if I said I didn't hope for some aesthetic enhancement if I do go with some treatment, but if can get my mouth to the point where my tongue fits and I can breath well and chew properly, yet look exactly the same, I would be ecstatic."

This is exactly how I felt a year ago. It took me many long distance phone calls (because I'm from a hick town) to find a functional Orthodontist that specialises in braces/expanders, etc...
Well, needless to say I found 1 in my little hick town that does  Damon and was even on the cover of TIME's Magazine for being one of the best Orthos in the country. Who would've thought.
Anyways:

I had a small upper dental arch my entire life, so narrow at the premolars that my lower jaw had to be held far back to meet the teeth.  My upper palate is narrow and long, which gave me buck teeth (not too bad) and a deep bite.
My mother placed me on my belly as a baby and faced my head to the left every night. She said taht was the only position I would sleep in and she just picked a side for my head. Well...when you put the same pressure on a growing skull, at the same part of that skull...you will give this baby a skull deformity because this is the way the bones will grow. And that is exactly what happened. The right side of my face is flatter (kind of like what Peruvian Indians did by placing a flat board on the back of babies heads to give them high skulls but flatttened bone structure on the back of the skull), and the teeth/palate is narrower on that side than the side that had always faced up.
Now, nutrition might have something to do with it on top of the sleeping position, but since i know 100% that my mother did this, night after night, I don't doubt at all that this is what caused this deformity in the first place.

I have had the Damon system in my mouth now for a year and it's made a HUGE difference in the feel of my skull.
My tongue was too big for my mouth, could not rest it in my upper palate and so had to rest in my lower jaw. My lower jaw used to 'hang' there and had to be kept shut with muscle strength which caused tension. I clenched over night during sleep causing more tension. I had TMJ popping and Lockjaw, which I needed surgery to open up as a result of an uneven occlusion. My sinus also always used to be stuffy, narrow and full of crap. The mucus was usually dried up and only nasalsprays and a sinus flush could losen this dried up crap up to clear my nose.

Forward to 1 year in self-ligating braces and expanding archwire:
My sinus is always clear and the mucus that builds up once in awhile is lose and easy to blow out. I am off nasalsprays and sinus flushes. My upper arch expanded to the point of having enough room for my tongue, which now rests peacefully inside my upper palate. Both of my dental arches have expanded enough to get rid of all the crowding and teeth look somewhat straight (still rotating some, not finished yet). I used to feel like a defective human, this feeling is now gone. I feel more primally, especially since eating Paleo/Primal for the last 1.5 yrs.
Eating primally did not fix my defective feeling though, something else was wrong and this was it!
My face did not widen from what I can see but the back molars now fill in the back of my mouth. Before you coulnd't see passed my first 8 teeth. My cheekbones seem more prominent.

I am a Dinarid by race and knew I couldn't and shouldn't have a wide face. My ears are set far back on my head. My natural dental arch is a long one anyways, rather than short and wide. With this 'expansion' of the dental arch (not to be confused with palate bone) it brought some of the teeth forward (because it got wider) and gives me tons of room in the back. I could probably place another half molar behind my wisdom teeth.
Anyways, before this gets too long...there is hope for everyone.
Jared might be a racial type that isn't meant to have a wide palate. Having a narrow head doesn't always mean there is something nutritionally wrong. Just research dinaric race and you'll understand. There are also African races that actually have narrow heads, but are 'wide' the other direction.

The feeling of being able to place the tongue in the upper palate and resting my mouth comfortably, without ever having to adjust my lower jaw or licking my lips or having any other facial ticks, is PRICELESS!

Good Luck to everyone!
Waldpfad

Offline wodgina

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Re: Fixing narrow palates and cranial deformities
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2011, 01:20:00 pm »
Thanks for that, wonder how everyone else is going with theirs?
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