Author Topic: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham  (Read 25193 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2015, 07:24:34 am »
More evidence was just published about genetic and physiological adaptations among the Inuit that differentiate them from Europids:

Greenlandic Inuit show genetic signatures of diet and climate adaptation
Science 18 September 2015:
 Vol. 349  no. 6254  pp. 1343-1347 
 DOI: 10.1126/science.aab2319 
"...the Inuit have genetic and physiological adaptations to a diet rich in PUFAs."
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2015, 07:38:49 am »
I saw that. Boy, you're all about tearing down ZC and VLC these days. I understand, though. It seemed so great in the beginning, like 80/10/10 did to me, until it slowly damaged my health more and more.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2015, 09:02:43 am »
I shared the new study as it is relevant to the topic and to my earlier comment in the thread along the same lines. It is also an interesting counterpoint to the recommendations of V. Stefansson and many others to (allegedly) emulate the Inuit and/or consume PUFA-rich oils.

I hear you about my more recent posts. Some days I eat VLC/ZC myself, but not every day, and I don't aim for "nutritional ketosis". I don't ask that anyone agree with me. All I ask is that no one say I didn't warn people. I noticed that many others use attention-grabbing methods successfully to get the word out about this or that, so I tried that and it appears to have worked. I know it's not my usual way, but was concerned by the increasing number of increasingly bad reports I was seeing and felt I owed it to folks to share the other side of the story after my past quite positive posts about VLC. I try to share not just the good, but also the bad and the ugly. :)

And of course, as always, other folks' mileage may vary.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2015, 09:11:47 am »
No, I hear you, it just makes me a little sad that there's no safe space nutritionally that we can recommend to everyone. Certainly ZC is not as bad for the brain as 80/10/10, but all the other common long-term effects, while not quite as negative, still don't exactly impress me.

I figure that science will fix everyone's health problems pretty much on the same day as we get nutrition completely figured out amongst the raw paleo community. That'd be ironic, no?

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2015, 03:55:20 pm »
The Inuit studies are interesting and its a perfectly reasonable conclusion that they be genetically adapted to high levels of dietary fish fat.

I still wonder if there are not other subgroups whom are also more fat adapted than others. I would imagine people more closely related to the ancient nordic tribes whom relied heavily on fish as well as fatty land animals? Its possible that modern people have only just recently lost their ability to adapt easily to near carnivorous diets, since the agricultural revolution.

There must be groups of people who have retained the genetic adaptions of the mammoth and cave bare hunters of northern europe, who lived off of high amounts of land fats. There were groups of herds people that flourished throughout the early neolithic age who lived almost exclusively on animal foods, and had only given up their traditional ways very recently

Though most of these fat adapted people interbred with other groups and there are no longer any pure bred inuit equivalents left, still I say there must be some people more fat adaptable than others.

On the topic of fish liver oil, I've noticed an aversion too it personally, but on the other hand I absolutely love whole raw sheep liver... my ancestors must of been more adapted to Land mammal meat. Perhaps the people currently using cod liver oil would do better to instead eat the fats and organs of grassfed land animals?

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #80 on: September 22, 2015, 06:35:49 pm »
I am certain that many other ethnicities are also fully  fat-adapted, not just the Inuit, so I am a little appalled by PP`s scaremongering on this issue. I think people have to concede that even, say, a few people can do fine long-term on a 100% raw vegan diet. Now, granted, that seems unlikely but who knows, maybe some people have the exact combination of (vitamin B12-producing?)genes that make it work.

It is just that I used to condemn all and sundry in the past for being heretical pro-raw-dairy advocates, and I subsequently found that my raw dairy allergenicity went down to some extent, after over a decade or so of eating rawpalaeo. Now, granted, my fanaticism was in response to the very  fanaticism of pro-raw-dairy advocates who maintained that it was impossible to have negative side-effects from raw dairy, but I can see that I overdid it just a bit.

I have a lot of upper-palaeolithic/Cro-Magnon heritage, with, sadly, some admixture from non-palaeo  nordic/mediterranean etc., so,imo, I ought to be more fat-adapted than a lot of Caucasians. I seem to thrive in the first 3 weeks of going RZC but then start failing after 3 weeks. Hmm, perhaps it is time for  a RZC trial again, since it has been years since I last did  a trial.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #81 on: September 22, 2015, 08:27:05 pm »
Geoff, I thought you were already going to start doing 3 weeks of ZC followed by a couple days of carbs, and so on. Is that still the plan?

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #82 on: September 22, 2015, 08:51:20 pm »
Geoff, I thought you were already going to start doing 3 weeks of ZC followed by a couple days of carbs, and so on. Is that still the plan?
I got side-tracked. I suppose I need to try a little harder.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2015, 10:35:41 pm »
Let us know how it goes. I think it would be interesting to see how this would work long-term. It wouldn't work well for me because I get so tired those first couple weeks of VLC.

Offline Inger

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2015, 12:02:24 am »
I am going zero carb in the winter Tyler... join me ;)
I eat a little carbs that are in season here now.. I think it is important to do that too.. but soon I will ditch any carb.......
I have no issues doing no carbs tho.

If you join me, make sure to drink lots of spring water, ok? and...  seafood :)

Offline Satya

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2015, 11:23:28 pm »
Though most of these fat adapted people interbred with other groups and there are no longer any pure bred inuit equivalents left, still I say there must be some people more fat adaptable than others.

Certainly.  And if we look at the people who have had problems vlc-zc, they are the ones highly restricting foods to muscle meats mainly...sometimes from one species.  That said, I find for myself - a northern European descendant, high fat is fine, as is low carb, but I must have the occasional carb refeed long term.  Seems like a seasonally natural approach.

I did experience an allergic reaction that cascaded beyond the original sugar alcohol erythritol to include all nightshades during a vlc period.  However, I also experienced an environmental trigger of bad shop vacuum fumes at my gym (which I quit right then and there).  So I cannot really be sure what exactly caused the allergic reaction.  Airborne triggers are common in allergy onset, from what I have read.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2015, 02:14:50 am »
There is so much we do not know about the people who reportedly fail on so called VLC diets. There are so many factors involved which do not get fully discussed. I personally stay on VLC, and will admit that if I do not have any carbs what so ever I begin to go hypoglycemic and have low energy spells, but so long as I have some carbs( and it does not have to be much nor do I need to eat carbs everyday) I seem to do fine in the long term.

What I do is extreme and in order to make VLC work people may have to go to an extreme that they are not willing or able to do.

I will eat whole animals Organs, glands, blood, marrow, copious amounts of stomach fat and even make stomach and intestinal smoothies, then I also eat eggs, and occasional seafood, along with coconut and other some carb food staples ....I am not sure that there are very many who has fail VLC who have genuinely tried such an approach and stuck with it for long enough to prove one way or another?

There are people like Myself and Inger who do live much closer to a more balanced carnivorous ideal. For VLC to work one must incorporating all parts of the animal, using limited amounts of quality carbs, and give it enough time to allow the body to realign itself. Lets look at it case by case, individual by individual, and it seems to me that most who fail to adapt to VLC are merely experimenting with certain aspects of VLC without getting into the holistic Blood and guts of a VLC lifestyle.

 It seems like most people who attempt ZC and VLC lack the resources needed in order to obtain the copious amounts of quality fat and organ meats which are essential....it also seems that many who fail also lack the courage to eat tripe, fish head smoothies, high meat, glands, and what not which is also a crucial part of making a VLC diet work.
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Online TylerDurden

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2015, 02:37:08 am »
I did fine on RVLC for years, even when not eating much in the way of raw organ-meats.
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.""The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.""A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."" The man who lets a leader prescribe his course is a wreck being towed to the scrap heap."Ayn Rand

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2015, 08:43:52 am »
I did fine on RVLC for years, even when not eating much in the way of raw organ-meats.

As I was stating there are still so many unknown factors as to why some people can more easily adapt to LC than others.

Whats your parameters of RVLC? And exactly how long did you consistently follow it for? Where you eating highmeat, or some other combinations of foods which allowed you to successfully adapt? I when through long periods of eating very close to zero carb, there was a two year period when I ate very little carbs.


This is a theory I have regarding why so many people can do so well initially on ZC before hitting a wall....
 In a way early adaptation to ZC can be much like veganism in the way one can begin to feel good for a period of time until certain unidentified factors stored within the body tissues begin to get depleted...or in some cases the metabolic systems involved in breaking down fat and protein begin to break down themselves.   

I currently seem to feel best eating between 20 to 50 carbs per day, I will go some days without any and other days eat more, and on rare occasions I may treat myself to a glass of raw goats milk when I go up to the farm on sheep pick up day.
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Online TylerDurden

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2015, 05:53:26 pm »
Well, now I come to think of it, I ate RVLC for something like 3 years almost non-stop. I would eat a banana or the equivalent about 3 times a fortnight, but otherwise just eat raw animal foods/seafoods. I would sometimes eat high-meat but only for  a few months at a time each year, and then usually in small portions, though not always.  I inevitably found that I did not digest raw fruits well which was why I limited them. I only ate them in order to avoid the 3-week wall I would encounter after 3 weeks of going RZC.


I do admit that during my RVLC phase, my stamina at exercise was right down, but the feeling I had in my head re enhanced concentration/alertness(maybe higher intelligence?) was worth it.

I Do not know why my mind thrives but not my body when going RZC, and why the experiment failed c. after 3 weeks.
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.""The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.""A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."" The man who lets a leader prescribe his course is a wreck being towed to the scrap heap."Ayn Rand

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #90 on: September 25, 2015, 05:54:52 pm »
One question for my RZC Experiment:-  does raw milk break the rules re not too many carbs? Could I glug a litre or two of raw milk in one day without getting out of ketosis?
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.""The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.""A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."" The man who lets a leader prescribe his course is a wreck being towed to the scrap heap."Ayn Rand

Offline eveheart

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #91 on: September 25, 2015, 06:19:59 pm »
For me, the important parameters for ketosis are how many carbs I ingest at one time and my activity level. I also play around with daily I.F. a la Dave Asprey, which I loosely adapt as: only fat morning until early afternoon, protein for lunch, carbs for early dinner. Ketone testing with urine test strips indicates that I am in ketosis for many hours each day. I like this pattern because it avoids the wicked insomnia I get if I remain in ketosis at night.
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Offline Ioanna

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #92 on: September 26, 2015, 12:38:38 am »
Eveheart, what works for you as a "only fat morning"?

I used to eat avocado in the morning, and then a protein meal when I got hungry next. This was working quite well for me initially, until I realized the fat from avocado was not really doing a whole lot for me, not like animal fat. I don't really eat avocado anymore, nor desire to even if I could find a decent supply. So I'm looking for replacement suggestions.

TD drinks raw milk? 

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2015, 01:28:38 am »
TD drinks raw milk? 
Yes, I know, after all those years I spent condemning pro-raw-dairy-advocates!  I did very occasional raw dairy experiments ever since giving it up  in Feb 2002 (sort of once a year) and found that I very gradually developed fewer, less virulent symptoms from it after about 10 years. Now, I do not immediately suffer from it, seemingly, except for some excess mucus. I do not like the mucus aspect but I do not consume raw dairy all the time anyway. If my health declined or I had to suddenly urinate more frequently etc., I would give it up instantly.

I have recently discovered that chronic fatigue syndrome often creates new allergies  such as towards raw dairy.
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.""The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.""A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."" The man who lets a leader prescribe his course is a wreck being towed to the scrap heap."Ayn Rand

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2015, 03:47:54 am »
I Do not know why my mind thrives but not my body when going RZC, and why the experiment failed c. after 3 weeks.

Not enough salt intake? and/or water?

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #95 on: September 26, 2015, 03:55:30 am »
Not enough salt intake? and/or water?
No, I drank lots of water and added lots of salt to make sure I retained the water.
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.""The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.""A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."" The man who lets a leader prescribe his course is a wreck being towed to the scrap heap."Ayn Rand

Offline jessica

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #96 on: September 26, 2015, 06:51:09 am »
I don't think that's its be considered lc or have same fat:protein as avocado but I find that a few(3) raw egg yolks in a large glass of raw milk makes a good breakfast/meal that really tides me over for quite a while.  And it's all excellent animal fats.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #97 on: September 26, 2015, 07:40:43 am »
Eveheart, what works for you as a "only fat morning"? 

Butter, lamb fat, or beef fat. I've been doing this for about six months now. It suits me and my schedule. I get super-hungry by lunch, but in an energetic way, not in a low-blood-sugar shaky way. I like that type of hunger.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #98 on: September 26, 2015, 08:12:59 am »
Straight fat for breakfast. I like it. Has anyone else tried this? I personally don't generally eat before about 10:30 am at the very earliest, and usually more like noon, but this sounds good.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Green Pastures FCLO could be sham
« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2015, 08:27:57 am »
Well, now I come to think of it, I ate RVLC for something like 3 years almost non-stop. I would eat a banana or the equivalent about 3 times a fortnight, but otherwise just eat raw animal foods/seafoods. I would sometimes eat high-meat but only for  a few months at a time each year, and then usually in small portions, though not always.  I inevitably found that I did not digest raw fruits well which was why I limited them. I only ate them in order to avoid the 3-week wall I would encounter after 3 weeks of going RZC.


I do admit that during my RVLC phase, my stamina at exercise was right down, but the feeling I had in my head re enhanced concentration/alertness(maybe higher intelligence?) was worth it.

I Do not know why my mind thrives but not my body when going RZC, and why the experiment failed c. after 3 weeks.

I have noticed this phenomenon as well....Perhaps it has something to do with how the brain and nerve tissue differs in its preferred fuel source separately from the musculoskeletal system. The Brain can thrive on fats for fuel much more so than muscle tissue, which on low carb diets is fueled primarily through glycogen converted from protein by the liver.

In theory it is possible for one to sustain oneself through gluconeogenesis, and there are many example of humans being able to fully adapt to near zero carb diets( such as the Inuit) What I see happening in some individuals who experience sudden energy loss after a few weeks into zc and lc experiments, is that the neolithic adapted liver and enzymatic metabolism inherited by modern man, which became more adapted to lower protein and higher carbs during the last 10,000, begins to exhaust itself after a period of time when subsisting without its conditioned regular dietary carb intake.

The inuit and perhaps many other individuals from other subgroups have an inherently stronger liver function which allows one to continually produce enough glycogen from protein to fully fuel the muscle tissue over long periods of time(during which the brain can thrive on ketones)
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