Author Topic: Raw carnivore with questions...  (Read 5713 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nicole_German

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Raw carnivore with questions...
« on: December 18, 2009, 09:28:25 pm »
Hi all.
I have been ZC since October this year (2009) and started eating raw GB only a couple weeks ago.
I have now come to the conclusion that a diet of raw meat is the best for my body. I have some questions though: What about variety? Do I need to eat a lot of different animals, cutts and so on?
What about organs? Do I have to include them in my diet and which ones would you recommend and how often should I eat them?
Thanks
Nicole



Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,005
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2009, 01:52:28 am »
Well, some claim that organs and variety aren't necessary, but this is not the case in my experience. One reason after all why many people start enjoying this kind of raw-meat diet is precisely because they go in for a wide variety of really tasty raw foods such as raw oysters, raw mackerel, raw grassfed horsemeat, raw durian or raw wild hare carcasses or whatever. I, myself, would have quickly tired of this diet if I'd merely stuck to just 1 or 2 foods, quite aside from other considerations.

Simply put, Palaeo(and more recent hunter-gatherer) tribes all had a significant preference for organ-meats over muscle-meats, and this behaviour is replicated among wild animals as well. Plus, palaeo peoples ate a really wide variety of foods in their time, in order to get enough nutrients.

Don't worry re cuts of muscle-meat, though. Indeed, the cheaper the muscle-meat, the fattier it tends to be, which is actually a good thing.

Raw organs that I eat are:- heart/liver/tongue/kidney/suet/marrow. I've also occasionally eaten things like raw sweetbreads or raw brain or raw lung in the past, but I didn't find them too tasty. raw liver usually takes most people the longest to get used to, with raw heart or raw tongue being the easiest. It's certainly essential to have 10% of a raw zero carb diet consisting of raw organ-meats. Other than that, you should feel free to choose what organ-intake you want/need - after all, everyone is different.
“If you invade Iraq, “You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems.”  Common-sense Colin Powell comments  to a moronic George W Bush.

Offline Nicole_German

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2009, 03:38:57 am »
Hi Tyler,
Thanks for that! I have had some desire for liver and tongue lately but didnt buy liver yet and couldnt find any tongue. Nicola said that you were also living in London. Any suggestions were I can find good quality meats that are pretty cheap here as well as tongue and marrow? I live in East Acton (the area around Hammersmith and Fulhalm). Did you find horse meet in London?

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,936
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2009, 09:57:51 am »
Is there any special way to eat raw mackerel? What parts do you eat?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hannibal

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,261
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2009, 02:59:34 pm »
Is there any special way to eat raw mackerel?
I eat almost the whole mackerel, eyes included, leaving only scull, gills and fins.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline Nicole_German

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2009, 04:34:01 pm »
Hi,
I am not sure about eating raw fish since in most cases I guess it is not really fresh anymore. Do you freeze it before consumption to kill off any parasites?

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,005
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2009, 05:21:49 pm »
Hi,
I am not sure about eating raw fish since in most cases I guess it is not really fresh anymore. Do you freeze it before consumption to kill off any parasites?
I never bother freezing it myself as I find freezing ruins the taste of most raw animal foods(other than sources of almost pure raw fat such as suet/marrow). I sometimes am forced to buy prefrozen mackerel from 1 or 2 fishmonger's(they're always apologetic when this happens), but most often they're completely raw. I don't care re the issue of parasites as I've never had any side-effects re parasites.
“If you invade Iraq, “You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems.”  Common-sense Colin Powell comments  to a moronic George W Bush.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,005
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2009, 05:23:39 pm »
Is there any special way to eat raw mackerel? What parts do you eat?
  Well, I just eat the flesh inside and remove any bones in the fish, I sometimes eat the skin but just don't  like the head. I used to eat the nasty little bones in some fish but no longer do that(except with really small fish like sardines which I swallow whole usually, usually except the head).
“If you invade Iraq, “You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems.”  Common-sense Colin Powell comments  to a moronic George W Bush.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,005
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2009, 06:27:01 pm »
Hi Tyler,
Thanks for that! I have had some desire for liver and tongue lately but didnt buy liver yet and couldnt find any tongue. Nicola said that you were also living in London. Any suggestions were I can find good quality meats that are pretty cheap here as well as tongue and marrow? I live in East Acton (the area around Hammersmith and Fulhalm). Did you find horse meet in London?

You need to check out the lfm.org.uk website. It's a farmers' markets association which is Weston-Price like in scope(ie stalls offering unpasteurised dairy, 100% grassfed/organic meats, raw wildcaught seafood/wild game etc.) They have a markets map on that website showing the LFM markets nearest to you. They're usually held on weekends(all details on the site, check the markets map for locations etc.). The stalls won't display organs in their stalls(other than liver and kidney), but you can just ask the stall-holders for contact details for their farm and phone them up asking if you can make an order for  raw organs like raw tongue for picking up at the next week's market. Also ask them what they feed their animals. Some unscrupulous farmers do feed their animals on grains in winter(as opposed to hay), so make sure the meat is 100% grassfed - not all farmers at those markets offer organic-status animals, because of the huge cost involved in converting to organic status, but they all have to abide by certain rules the LFM assocation demands(ie no hormone-injections and the like). My experience has been that many of the smaller nonorganic  farmers in the UK actually have higher-quality 100% grassfed (and cheaper) meats than most of the big agricombines which sell official organic-status meats to supermarkets, for example. The stalls at the LFM markets vary very widely in price. I have seen shockingly high prices for 1 stall selling raw seafood like scallops in 1 farmers' market, while the stall at the opposite end of the very same market offers raw wildcaught seafood at a fraction of the former's prices , with other stalls offering wild game such as a whole  wild hare carcasses at almost a third of the price offered for a kilo of  100% grassfed/organic fillet-steak at another stall, and so on.

1 catch:- In the UK, it is phenomenally difficult to find domesticated fowl or pigs which aren't fed on crappy 100% grain-filled diets, this despite the fact that chickens/geese etc. and pigs are natural omnivores. So best to avoid them, even in the LFM markets, unless you find a genuine source of pastured pork etc. You'll just need to ask around a lot re what the animals are fed on. 1 tip:- don't ask them if the animals are fed on grass, they'll just say yes. Ask them what their animals are fed on throughout the year - some farmers have actually foolishly boasted to me that they fed their cows on so-called "high-quality grains", especially in winter, which helped me avoid them in future.

Oh and then there's the phenomenally expensive Borough Market at the opposite end of town. A really horrible tourist trap, but it offers unusual items such as raw wildcaught shark, which are unavailable anywhere else. It's only worth visiting on Saturdays and has the most stalls on the 3rd Saturday of each month.

An easier option that doesn't require a car or having to lug heavy bags of food across London every fortnight is to simply search online for 100% grassfed/organic farms and ask them if they do delivery. Most such farms do not mention on their website/shopping-forms whether they sell raw organs as well, so you'll have to phone them up and ask them if they do. They'll deliver their meats to you, chilled in ice-packs(sometimes they'll insist on only selling prefrozen, not chilled, animal foods such as raw marrow(it decays too quickly if left at room-temperature, sometimes). I've had them sent to my door, and even though I wasn't there to receive them when the courier came, the parcels were never stolen(I usually just tell the farmers to tell the courier to leave them behind a bush near the door or some such instruction.

There ought to be at least 1 good fishmonger's near you as well - the supermarkets may have wiped out most butchers, but the fishmonger's are still around. They don't always  offer raw seafood, IMO, as good as what I find in the LFM markets(I don't bother any more in buying  raw mussels or raw oysters from a standard fishmonger, for example) but other foods like raw mackerel/raw kingfish/scallops are of the same high quality.

For eating out, try local Japanese Sashimi restaurants. The best are those which have Japanese customers as regulars. The catch is that most of them offer tiny slices of raw fish and charge the Earth. So far, I've only come across 1 decent Sashimi restaurant in the whole of London(they offered me huge chuncks of raw mackerel for 18 pounds sterling) but I'm not sure if they're in the King's Cross area any more.

Re horsemeat:- Horsemeat is illegal in the UK. That is, expensive restaurants can get it imported from France but that's about it. I get my horsemeat when I go on holiday to Italy. They have specialist horse-butchers over there.
“If you invade Iraq, “You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems.”  Common-sense Colin Powell comments  to a moronic George W Bush.

Offline Nicole_German

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2009, 07:34:18 pm »
Thanks Tyler
Thats some rally great info. I heard that New Zealand lamb is always grassfed - is that true?
Thats a pitty with the horse meat. I wonder why this is illegal in the UK? Well I guess I have to try it when I am on visit in germany - I know that you can buy horsemeat there.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,005
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2009, 09:19:20 pm »
Thanks Tyler
Thats some rally great info. I heard that New Zealand lamb is always grassfed - is that true?
Thats a pitty with the horse meat. I wonder why this is illegal in the UK? Well I guess I have to try it when I am on visit in germany - I know that you can buy horsemeat there.
  Horsemeat is illegal in the UK because horses are kept as pets and therefore pet-owners lobbied against the sale of horsemeat and got it banned, many decades ago. Similiarly, horse-owners and vegetarian fanatics in the  US in recent times got the last horsemeat-seller banned in Illinois(even though they were mainly selling the stuff abroad, not in the US). Other European countries, such as France and Italy, on the other hand, even encourage the practice.

Re NZ lamb:- Well, I've heard quite different rumours, that New Zealand lamb is raised on grass up till the last 3 months before slaughter when it is fed on grains, feedlot-style. Whatever the case, I would never buy the NZ lamb I've seen in the supermarkets in the past as supermarkets(even organic-leaning ones) are notorious for buying low-quality products in bulk. They are also notorious for cheating their suppliers via forcing through cuts in the latter's profits. I avoid supermarkets like the plague unless they have special organic fruits I can't get at a farmers' market or for simple stuff like baking soda. Otherwise, for general food-shopping and other stuff, I far prefer to go in for farmers' markets or corner shops.
“If you invade Iraq, “You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems.”  Common-sense Colin Powell comments  to a moronic George W Bush.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,936
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2009, 05:54:59 am »
While plenty of ZCers and RAFers do fine with little or no organs, raw organs are rich in nutrients like minerals and vitamin A that some people might be deficient in, so they can be beneficial for that. Not only HG humans, but apparently most, if not all, predators prefer organs over muscle meats and will tend to eat the preferred organs first--and I don't mean the contents of the stomach(s) or intestines, like some misguided vegetarians/vegans claim. For example, the alpha male of a wolf pack gets first pick of a kill and will tend to eat the liver. One scientist even discovered that whichever wolf eats the liver becomes recognized as the alpha male and proved it by doing it himself and becoming the accepted alpha male of the pack he was studying in captivity, for as long as he ate the liver. Once he let another wolf eat it, he lost his position as alpha male. Wolves also reportedly like the heart and lungs quite a bit, though I've never seen lungs for sale anywhere for human consumption.

Human HGs also tend to like brains and marrow quite a bit, which Paleoanthropologists report were important hominid foods because only two other predators in Eurasia could easily get at them--giant hyenas and giant cats. These giant predators with powerful jaws and teeth became extinct half a million years ago, and thus made these bone-encased foods even more plentifully available for hominids. The only other predators I know of other than humans and maybe some other primates that can get at the marrow of large animals are today's small hyenas and vultures, and I don't think they can get at brains.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,005
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2009, 07:53:23 pm »
One of the interesting points made by the WAPF is the focus on organ-meats by females of native tribes wanting to get pregnant. I've heard that female wild animals similiarly need raw organs in order to maintain a high level of fertility(indeed one of the many reasons why a number of female zoo animals have difficulty in becoming pregnant and bearing offspring is the distinct lack of organ-meats quite aside from the lack of unprocessed foods). In other words, not eating organ-meats might help one to just about get by for a time, but for purposes of maintaining a high sperm-count etc. and long-term optimum health, one does need organ-meats, preferably raw.
“If you invade Iraq, “You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems.”  Common-sense Colin Powell comments  to a moronic George W Bush.

Offline Hannibal

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,261
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2009, 08:13:06 pm »
Raw organs are also easier to digest than muscle-meats.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,005
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2009, 08:17:08 pm »
Raw organs are also easier to digest than muscle-meats.
  Very true. At the start of going rawpalaeo, I had such severe digestive issues that I found ground raw meats less digestible than muscle-meats and found raw organ-meats the easiest of all to digest, I suppose because they're often softer(ie have a higher water-content?). Raw organs made into "high-meat" I later on found the easiest of all to digest, with very little coming out the other end, being almost wholly absorbed.
“If you invade Iraq, “You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems.”  Common-sense Colin Powell comments  to a moronic George W Bush.

Offline Hannibal

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,261
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2009, 08:25:09 pm »
The only other predators I know of other than humans and maybe some other primates that can get at the marrow of large animals are today's small hyenas and vultures, and I don't think they can get at brains.
Especially vultures, which take large bones and carry them up to a height to let them crash down. I don't know if they do the same with sculls.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline Hannibal

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,261
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2009, 08:37:40 pm »
have a higher water-content?
Some organ-meats (e.g. heart, brain) contain more water, and some less (e.g. tongue). The same is with muscle-meats.
All of them contain about 70-80% of water.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,005
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2009, 09:02:17 pm »
Some organ-meats (e.g. heart, brain) contain more water, and some less (e.g. tongue). The same is with muscle-meats.
All of them contain about 70-80% of water.
Tongue contains less water-content, are you sure? Any data to back this up? I mean the tongues I've gotten always seemed much slimier than raw muscle-meats by comparison.
“If you invade Iraq, “You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems.”  Common-sense Colin Powell comments  to a moronic George W Bush.

Offline Nicole_German

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2009, 10:30:33 pm »
One of the interesting points made by the WAPF is the focus on organ-meats by females of native tribes wanting to get pregnant.

What is WAPF?

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,005
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2009, 10:52:13 pm »
What is WAPF?


It seems we need an info thread on rawpaleodiet.com explaining all the abbreviations we commonly use. "WAPF" refers to the Weston.A. Price Foundation which promotes a largely cooked, Neolithic diet along with raw dairy, with an emphasis on (cooked) organ-meats, grassfed meats/avoidance of veggie oils  etc.
“If you invade Iraq, “You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems.”  Common-sense Colin Powell comments  to a moronic George W Bush.

Offline Hannibal

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,261
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2009, 11:08:33 pm »
It seems we need an info thread on rawpaleodiet.com explaining all the abbreviations we commonly use. 

We've got one - http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/suggestion-box/glossary-of-acronyms/
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline Nicole_German

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2009, 11:31:54 pm »
Oh thanks...
So assuming I eat about 2 to 3 pounds of meat a day, how much organ meat should I eat? Is one heart a day too little, too much or just right?

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,005
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2009, 11:40:41 pm »
Oh thanks...
So assuming I eat about 2 to 3 pounds of meat a day, how much organ meat should I eat? Is one heart a day too little, too much or just right?

  Certainly never more than 3 pounds is necessary, I often eat less. As for hearts, it depends on the size. If you're eating raw ox heart, just eat  1 of that and nothing else that same day as it's so huge, if it's lambs' hearts I've eaten 8 at 1 meal, no probs. I would suggest eating the equivalent of 1 or 2 lambs' hearts once a week.That's a good start. Perhaps a tiny bit more if you're not eating any other raw organs right now.
“If you invade Iraq, “You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people. You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems.”  Common-sense Colin Powell comments  to a moronic George W Bush.

Offline Hannibal

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,261
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2009, 11:40:50 pm »
Is one heart a day too little, too much or just right?
Sometimes I eat over 1 pound of lamb hearts.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline Nicole_German

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Raw carnivore with questions...
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2009, 07:22:03 pm »
Hi all,
thanks for the info. It's been a really great help so far.

I have another question though: I bought myslef kidneys and they said I should consume them until the 24th. Now I have read about "high meats" in that forum - not sure about what that is exactly but it seems as if it's pretty "rotten" meat right? So for my question: can I eat those kidneys after the 24th? And how will I know that they are not suitable for consumption anymore?
Thanks
Nicole