Author Topic: Cold water Therapy  (Read 39412 times)

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Offline Eric

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2012, 10:09:30 am »
It hadn't occurred to me to mention this, but in addition to cold-water swimming, I also attend sweat lodges on a fairly regular basis so I expose myself to both extremes of cold and heat. I suspect they work together to give me the good health I enjoy, along with a clean, largely un-processed diet.
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Offline Adora

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2012, 01:27:04 am »
I like hot and cold too. I want to heal desperately but not just for any life. I want to be free of the medicintowns to be safe and comfortable in nature in all climates. They all attract me. I like when the are in flux.
know thyself and all of the mysteries of the gods and the universe will be revealed.
Oracle at Delphi

Then began I to thrive, and wisdom to get,
I grew and well I was;
Each word led me on to another word,
Each deed to another deed.
Odin, who chose to be weak and hang form the tree of the world (the universe), to capture the Runes (wisdom), so he (omnipotent) grew...
Each true word and deed leads to my manifestation of the true me.

Offline bish8303

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2012, 05:54:08 pm »
I do this the sauna lowers your blood sugar and the cold shower is great for the blood pressure. Best adjust slowly otherwise you could faint.

Offline Adora

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2012, 01:42:35 am »
Hi Bish
How do you know about sauna lowering BS? Did you read it, or is it your experience? If it is from your experience, did you happen to test your bs or did you get hungry? Please say more.
know thyself and all of the mysteries of the gods and the universe will be revealed.
Oracle at Delphi

Then began I to thrive, and wisdom to get,
I grew and well I was;
Each word led me on to another word,
Each deed to another deed.
Odin, who chose to be weak and hang form the tree of the world (the universe), to capture the Runes (wisdom), so he (omnipotent) grew...
Each true word and deed leads to my manifestation of the true me.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2012, 06:04:59 am »
It wouldn't surprise me if a sauna lowers BS.  Carbs are much more plentiful in warmer climates, and generally ideal foods to eat in a particular environment are easier to find in that environment.  Therefore, you'd think heat and carbs would be compatible. 

Offline MarkC

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2012, 02:50:12 am »
Thanks for sharing your experiences Eric, they are so impressive. I'm inspired by them. Hope I can get to your level some day. Adora and PaleoPhil, it's also really inspiring to read your stories, as your experiences seem to parallel mine as we're all trying to adapt to extreme heat and, especially, cold. I've just been taking cold showers every day since January. In January I could get the temperature down to about 40F (8C) but now with the weather getting warmer it will not come out any colder than 45F (12 - 13C). I haven't tried cold baths yet. Are baths a more advanced technique? Obviously baths are more similar to immersion in an open body of water,  which is the ultimate goal for which I'm training.

I just moved to London and there are lots of open air swimming pools here (called lidos by the British). I don't think they are chlorinated, but could be wrong. Most close over the winter period but I've found one that stays open all year long and I intend on swimming there next winter.

My adaptation to the cold is progressing well. I now think nothing of cold showers. I don't start with warm either like I used to, I just jump right into the full cold shower. Usually shower for just about 5 - 7 mins as I don't actually have much to do in the shower since I stopped using shampoo :) May need to start staying in for longer just for the sake of increasing my adaptation to the cold, although maybe taking cold baths will be enough.

I worry a little about the chemicals in the tap water, but I'm glad that the cold water means my pores are closed so I'm probably not absorbing much of the bad stuff. I'm looking into buying a filter for the shower head.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2012, 04:08:47 am »
I investigated that a bit and found people recommending vitamin C filters.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline makin8

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2012, 12:31:03 am »
I'm going to start trying this! I have always done the hot/cold mix up when my body is sore post work out, which really does make a big difference for me.   I also struggle with migraines, and love taking a cold shower to help relieve the pain there..

For the next week I will work on starting my day with a cold shower and see if it helps with my energy first thing.  Great article, thanks to everyone for sharing their experiences, very motivating!

Offline bish8303

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2013, 05:43:13 am »
Hi Bish
How do you know about sauna lowering BS? Did you read it, or is it your experience? If it is from your experience, did you happen to test your bs or did you get hungry? Please say more.

Realise this may be a bit late but its not just experience but from reading about it on the web you should google it. The best combo would be a hot sauna followed by a cold bath/shower as sauna lowers blood sugar and raises blood pressure a cold shower/bath drops blood pressure and gives a quick spike of blood pressure.

Offline dogman333

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2013, 12:28:40 am »
Just wanted to be sure everyone saw this:
Getting children's health stronger - Siberian style!

It's Siberian children cold tempering themselves to dramatically reduce illness. Here's the write up:
http://siberiantimes.com/healthandlifestyle/others/news/like-ducks-to-water-in-the-snow-keeping-kids-healthy-siberian-style/

And here's a write-up of Dr. Kakkar's experiments with cold water baths:
http://www.me-cvs.nl/index.php?pageid=3076

Increases testosterone for one thing! I like that. And tremendous success curing Chronic Fatigue, among other things.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2013, 11:47:09 pm »
Here is a 12 part blog from Jack Kruse on the WHY of cold therapy: http://www.jackkruse.com/cold-thermogenesis-1-theory-to-practice-begins/

I have gone through part 3 and found it extremely educating. He talks about a possible alternative to evolution, that even though hominids may have evolved in Africa, 95% of all lifeforms have lived and evolved through cold environments, therefore the basic genetic makeup is cold-adapted and the heat-adaptation is only a recent thing. He argues that even though our bodies can do well in heat, we still have disease and even disease with healthy diets and exercise. He contends that diet and exercise are only a small part of the whole system of health and that sleep, cold, and light all affect our natural rhythms that we have disrupted through our technology.

Brilliant man and I'm already convinced that these other things, sleep, light and cold, will help my own personal healing/re-naturalizing.
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2013, 03:48:35 am »
The best combo would be a hot sauna followed by a cold bath/shower as sauna lowers blood sugar and raises blood pressure a cold shower/bath drops blood pressure and gives a quick spike of blood pressure.
Did you mean quick spike of blood sugar? Did not know that. Do you have a source/link?

Yes, cold and heat therapy appear to be two ends of the same cryotherapy scale. Some ancient cultures, such as classical Romans and traditional Scandinavians, employed both. Even Jack Kruse wrote that he uses a hot tub.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2013, 04:04:39 am »


I have gone through part 3 and found it extremely educating. He talks about a possible alternative to evolution, that even though hominids may have evolved in Africa, 95% of all lifeforms have lived and evolved through cold environments, therefore the basic genetic makeup is cold-adapted and the heat-adaptation is only a recent thing.

ROFL that's just idiotic.  Primates are tropical creatures.  Ever notice how traditional tribes in cold areas often wear heavy clothes, like the Inuit, whereas traditional tribes in hot areas wear very little clothing?  That's not about fashion. The difference in clothing is because we are better adapted to warmer environments.

Think about it.  How many people want to vacation in cold environments, versus people who want to vacation on warm tropical beaches?

We live in cold environments because we can, through technology and hard work, not because it's ideal for humans.

Offline Dr. D

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2013, 05:08:55 am »
It's not idiotic CK. Think about it: on a CELLULAR level, biology has survived for so long in cold environments. He is not denying that we evolved in a tropical climate. However his argument is for everything leading up to that being cold-adapted, therefore complete OPTIMAL, is cold. Yes, we can survive in warm-climates, but they are not optimal.

Vacationing preferences are a weak argument. If you want to consider what people enjoy as a way of finding health, then you may as well give up raw paleo and go eat brownies. It may be quite prove-able that the inverse is true, because we enjoy it so thoroughly it may be harmful to our overall health, especially because the results leave us fatigued and diseased. See my point? If people enjoy bad food, why not the same for other aspects of life? Drugs, lack of sleep, artificial light are never debated as things that are beneficial or even optimal to health, so why can't temperature be along those lines?

If we want to vacation in heat so badly maybe that has something to say as to the hormetic effect/benefit of cold therapy.

And really, I don't have the know how or time to debate this. If you are interested, read the material. It's very scientific, the man is a doctor, he promotes paleo, and he has a lot of info in his papers. :D Take care!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 05:24:09 am by Dr. D »
-Dustin

Trying to heal ADHD. Common symptoms: fatigue, impulsiveness, poor attention, no motivation.
Other side issues I'd like to get over: Acne, dandruff, tooth health (yellow, poor gums, gingivitis)

If ya ain't hungry enough to eat raw liver, ya ain't hungry enough.

We are all just doing the best we can, with what we know, at any given time.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2013, 05:40:34 am »
I suppose this mister Kruse lives in North America, doesn’t he? Does he live nude there all year round, without any heating system in his house?  ;)

We already talked about him in Inger's journal.
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/optimizing-my-hormones/msg106255/#msg106255
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 06:01:11 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2013, 06:15:17 am »
Pay attention to what a man does, not just what he says. Kruse wrote that he uses a hot tub, not just cold baths/therapies.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline thunderseed

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2014, 05:23:54 pm »
I swim in the cold canadian rivers every single day. If I don't feel like going outside I fill up my bathtub with tons of ice cubes in cold water or just step outside in the frost and spray the frozen garden hose all over my body and man do I love it!!!!
I can withstand extreme cold temperatures now, but it also raised my ability to handle hot temperatures which is quite interesting. I can stay in a steam room for a few hours straight now, when before I was like everyone else and could only stay in for 15 minutes a time. I like playing around with extreme temperatures.
It's an extreme sport that reaps millions of health benefits, but I mostly just love the way it makes me feel.
You get acclimatized to the changes, but you still feel the endorphins. It both energizes and relaxes me, gives me a nice high.
Believe it or not,  mild hypothermia is good for the body. Your blood rushes away from your limbs when you are about to freeze to death and it is so calming. It skyrockets the immune system because it attacks the immune system. Being immersed in ice water for just a few minutes burns more calories than the worlds most intense workout does in an hour and the colder you are, the more brown fat you grow. It helps digestion and all your internal organs, simply because all your blood is going there to focus on those areas to protect them from certain death.
It strengthens bodily cells and hardens tissues, which is a good thing.
Oh and it also cures many injuries, joint problems, and is what athletes do to keep in top shape.

However ice swimming is NOT a good idea for people who have heart problems, lung problems or low immune systems. It can cause instant death if you aren't used to it. It's definitely a risk taking sport, but it comes loaded with benefits.
Hot and cold showers are great too, but in my opinion and experience do not compare to the benefits of actual ice swims.
Immersing the head - yes!
But take it slow. Get the feet submerged first, then the legs and so on. This helps the blood vessels to get used to the shock of cold so you don't die LoL.
And also there are other great risks! It's dangerous because when you get that cold you become dissorientated, and then your muscles freeze - so no swims in deep water. Make sure you give yourself enough time to get out.
Most cold swimmers go by the time it takes their hands to freeze up - otherwise known as "the claw". The colder it is, the less time you should be in there for, although the more acclimatized you are, the harder it is to tell, so when you lost hand function is a good way to judge when you should get out.
And also making sure to bring dry clothes that are easy to change into after when you can't move your fingers LoL.
Extreme ice temperatures like this should NOT be followed with warm or hot water therapy afterwards because it will hurt! It is healthier for the circulation to warm up by itself, but in general it will also hurt the faster you warm up. If you warm up slowly you won't get cold. But if you warm up fast, you'll get very cold when warming up.

Offline thunderseed

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2014, 05:41:05 pm »
ROFL that's just idiotic.  Primates are tropical creatures.  Ever notice how traditional tribes in cold areas often wear heavy clothes, like the Inuit, whereas traditional tribes in hot areas wear very little clothing?  That's not about fashion. The difference in clothing is because we are better adapted to warmer environments.

Think about it.  How many people want to vacation in cold environments, versus people who want to vacation on warm tropical beaches?

We live in cold environments because we can, through technology and hard work, not because it's ideal for humans.
Actually there are scientific theories that earth's climate is naturally an Ice Age, but that we are in an abnormal warm age - moving back into another ice age, with evidence of global warming and rise in earthquakes, ect.

Earth changes have happened many times in history, so really people are able to adjust to any temperature. They should be able to handle any temperature, ideally.

Biologically, intollerance to cold temperatures equals poor circulation in the body. Intollerance to heat is also not good. Many people think it requires more body fat to keep someone warm, but it actually requires healthy blood circulation. My ancestors had healthy circulation and did not wear clothes that people wear today, nor did they have all these pleasantries of living. Humans were not born with clothes on!

The amazing thing about evolution is that we are able to slowly adapt to any temperature! This is evident with hydrotherapy. People can train themselves to acclimatize to any temperature and the drastic changes in temperature are good for health.

Evolution has proved we can adapt to any environment, and way of eating in time. If we adapt too fast, it can cause problems. For example, if you put a white man in with the traditional Inuit all of a sudden, he would probably die of hypothermia due to being in the cold or die of health problems from that way of eating, unless he were to slowly adapt.
They have acclimatized to cold conditions. Most people that come from warmer climates have not, unless they are like me and do ice swims daily. The inuit also had enlarged livers that could handle the amount of meat they ate, which was natural and healthy for them, and it obviously takes time for someone to adjust to any extreme way of living but the cool thing about human bodies is that they seem to be able to adapt to almost any situation. 

 


Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2014, 08:29:05 pm »
I love going on holidays to cold environments. I find heat to be unbearable. I wish another Ice-Age  would happen.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 07:30:56 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline Eric

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2014, 11:19:29 pm »
I think the natural state of Homo sapiens is just being very adaptable. Even in hot deserts there are temperature swings, it might be 45 C during the day but might fall to 5 or 10 at night. Whether we first speciated in tropical environments or not, I think it behooves us to adapt to where we live now, and for many of us that means adapting to cold as it's cold at least part of the year.
Eric Garza
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Offline Pammie

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2014, 04:17:36 am »
I have never done cold water therapy but I so want to test it out.  Maybe later I will have to hop in the shower.

Offline rigato

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2014, 10:47:08 pm »
I don't think it would benefit me, I don't like winter or anything cold

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2014, 07:28:12 am »
Cold (and heat) therapy help those who have poor cold tolerance most of all. Those who don't like the cold at all can start with heat therapy, as both cold and heat work on the same "heat shock" proteins, and combining both cold and heat therapy is better than either alone.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Eric

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Re: Cold water Therapy - Resources
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2014, 08:17:20 pm »
Hi Phil, you seem to be well read on this issue. Can you recommend particular books or articles about this topic? It might be nice to have a list of things to point people to. The only book I know of is Wim Hoff and Justin Rosales' Becoming the Iceman, which I'd hesitate to recommend because it's so poorly written and doesn't delve too deeply into the science behind heat/cold therapy anyway.
Eric Garza
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Cold water Therapy
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2014, 05:15:53 am »
I use Feedly to track the headlines of certain blogs, and let the bloggers do the work of digging up some of the info, such as new studies, for me. Here are some relevant ones:

Todd Becker http://gettingstronger.org
Vince Giuliano http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com
Ray Cronise http://hypothermics.com

Wim Hof's blog doesn't have a feed: http://www.icemanwimhof.com/wim-hof-blog
Here's an example from it:
Quote
Behavioural training reduces inflammation
Research subjects suppress immune responses using physical conditioning.
May 5, 2014
"Kox suspects that the breathing techniques were the biggest contributor to suppressing inflammatory responses."

Nassim Taleb's book Antifragile: Things That Gain from Disorder isn't dedicated to the topic, but provides the sort of mindset and context for recognizing the utility of antifragilizing ancient practices.

Ancient practice often incorporated both heat and cold (and sometimes other therapies, like tummo meditation or clay), rather than focused solely on cold, as with the current popular trend in the blogosphere. It's rather odd that cold/heat therapy is often presented as though it were new or recently discovered, sometimes with fancy new names and weighed down with lots of time-consuming rhetoric about detailed explanatory theories.

Roman Baths: Frigidarium Caldarium and Tepidarium
> The Baths of Caracalla, http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/roman/day.html
> BBC's The Dark Ages: An Age of Light - What the Barbarians Did for Us (Episode 2)

Scandinavian Sauna + Cold Bath
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna
Cooling down is a part of the sauna cycle and is as important as the heating. Among users it is considered good practice to take a few moments after exiting a sauna before entering a cold plunge, and to enter a plunge pool by stepping into it gradually, rather than immediately immersing fully. In summer, a session is often started with a cold shower.[11][15]

Therapeutic sauna has been shown to aid adaptation, reduce stress hormones, lower blood pressure and improve cardiovascular conditions.[16][17][18][19][20][21]

Hot bathing reduces body fat: Effects of a comprehensive intervention program, including hot bathing, on overweight adults: a randomized controlled trial. Geriatr Gerontol Int. 2013. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23095006

Quote
Swimming To Antarctica
American Swimmer Spends 30 Minutes In Water Cold Enough To Kill
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/swimming-to-antarctica-12-02-2003/

Lynne Cox is an American woman who's among the best ocean swimmers of our time. But there's something else about her that you may find hard to believe.

Science doesn't fully understand it, but she survives – she even thrives - in water that is cold enough to kill. It is so remarkable that researchers have been trying to figure out how she does it for 30 years.

As correspondent Scott Pelley first reported in 2003, when you combine her unique talents with a stubborn streak, there is only one thing left to do - try to swim a mile in the coldest water on earth. ...

Professor Bill Keatinge of the University of London, a pioneer in the study of hypothermia, brought Cox to London for experiments in his lab.

"We were able to confirm that she can maintain stable body temperature with her head out of the water and in water temperatures as low as 44 Fahrenheit," he said. ...

Keatinge thinks Cox has somehow trained her body to keep most of her blood at her body's core and away from the skin where it's exposed to the cold. The blood stays warmer. But there is something else — call it her natural insulation.

"She's got an extremely even fat layer going right down the limbs and it's an ideal setup," he says.

Cox herself thinks this is the key to her success: "If you look at the marine mammals in Antarctica, the whales, the walruses, the seals all have body fat to stay warm. Their blubber is very dense whereas mine will be more like a cotton sweater. But I'm not going to be in as long as they are."

...

The greatest danger to Cox is when she gets out of the water. Because she is no longer moving swiftly, her temperature plunges and the cold begins to assault her heart. In half an hour, she manages to sit up, but it's a struggle. It was only a practice swim, and she has never been this bad off.

In time, she warms, but she's paid a price. Her feet and hands are numb. It's nerve damage and it could be lasting.


Cox takes a break during her training for an English Channel crossing in the early 1970s. She is flanked by brothers Dick and Bill Crowell of Westport, Conn., who also were training to make their bid. Dick was 15 at the time, and Bill 16. Hulton Archive/Getty Images

Body fat and muscle help thicker people stay warmer in cold weather/water:
http://www.weather.com/health/do-fat-people-stay-warmer-cold-weather-thin-people-20140103

There is "good" body fat as well as "bad" body fat. Cold therapy helps generate and activate more of the "good" brown adipose tissue and reduce the "bad" body fat:

http://www.innerfire.nl/brown-adipose
"Wim produces the same amount of Brown adipose and in some cases even more than young adults."

http://www.wimhoffoundation.com/applying-the-wim-hof-method
"The [Wim Hof Method] study also indicated that the amount of brown fat, which depends on the exposure to cold, can be increased"

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2013/07/brown-fat-its-big-deal.html

Unfortunately, because of the extreme phobia in the USA regarding both body fat and fat in food, the topic of good body fat rarely gets covered. The desire for thinness, often at the expense of health, fertility, and vigor (and even at times contributing to eating disorders like anorexia), arose in the USA relatively recently, largely with the flapper era.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 05:27:41 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb