Author Topic: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?  (Read 15759 times)

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Offline intouchwithinstinct

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A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« on: March 27, 2010, 02:07:35 pm »
OK so I was reading this post below and I after researching this thing, I want to get one!

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/raw-weston-price/fixing-narrow-palates-and-cranial-deformities/

When I am determined for something I get it.  The only question I have is how do you find a orthodontist that will do this in my area?  I also know that its expensive, I am saving but, is there a way to get this cheaper.  I know allot of people will just say no there isn't period, but I mean cmon lets brainstorm here, I have found cheaper ways to get all sorts of things I never thought I could have in the past some even medical.

I am also surprised there has not been more on this website about this product it looks pretty amazing.  I would be very excited to hear about anyones experiences with using one or anyones insight on this. 
"One wonders if there is not something in the life-giving vitamins and minerals of the food that builds not only great physical structures within which their souls reside, but builds minds and hearts capable of a higher type of mankind in which the material values of life are made secondary to individual character."~Weston Price~

Offline wodgina

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2010, 02:39:56 pm »
Firstly it was difficult finding an ALF practioner in OZ. It's difficult to use and adjust and is more of an art methinks. Why would dentists bother when their making thousands a day using what they already know? On the other hand I also would be careful believing the hype.

A few orthodontists in OZ have used it but the most enthusiastic was Dr Prue King at Lotus Dental in Neutral Bay. You could try John Flutter who's on the Sunny Coast although I think he prefers other appliances thinking back to our correspondence.

You may get similiar results with cheaper appliances with dentist in your area as flights are time consuming and expensive. Or..... you could always DIY!

 
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Offline majormark

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Offline intouchwithinstinct

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2010, 07:30:30 pm »
OK, wodgina I'm always down to be the first to volunteer, you said Do it myself?  I am a little lost as to how one would do this them self.  Suggestions are very welcome.

What other cheaper appliances are there?  Again very interested I got the google page open and ready for research on other products.   :)

majormark, I am very interested in the quantumtouch webpage and Will be researching that tonight in depth.  I have it bookmarked thank you for the sharing of knowledge there.  Just curious is your screenname from the famous hypnotist by any chance?
"One wonders if there is not something in the life-giving vitamins and minerals of the food that builds not only great physical structures within which their souls reside, but builds minds and hearts capable of a higher type of mankind in which the material values of life are made secondary to individual character."~Weston Price~

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2010, 08:05:08 pm »
I would be very excited to hear about anyone's experiences with using one or anyone's insight on this.  
I can't help you with Australian dentists (or dentists anywhere else for that matter, as I don't think it's very sensible to discuss people on the web, especially when you intend to work with them for a decade or so!  ;D ), but I have just had upper and lower ALFs fitted a few days ago, and I'm as excited as you are.  (Safe to say that I like and trust my dentist.)

Certainly the ALFs are doing something already.  Flossing my teeth, all the interdental gaps have opened up a little.  As I understand it, the ALFs are adjusted each month.  The movement happens straight away, then the move is consolidated during the monthly "rest" with tiny changes in the bone and other connective tissue around the tooth, growing on the side where the tooth is heading, and shrinking on the side the tooth is retreating from.

Here is the basic plan for me (given that I am recovering from poor childhood diet and bad childhood orthodontic work, with bicuspids removed in ignorance to "make space" and my upper palate retracted by a brace, inadvertently leaving insufficient space for my lower jaw to take up its proper position).  First my upper and lower ALFs will expand and perfect the arches, re-opening the bicuspid spaces.  This will take as long as it takes.  (Supposedly, it can't "overgrow" beyond its genetic blueprint, given the small forces involved, so the "end result" should be apparent when the teeth won't move any further.)

Then, as I understand it, my upper palate will be pulled forward as a whole using night-time traction gear attached to a mixed ALF-braces device (which will be maintaining the arch shapes and correct "lost-bicuspid" gaps, and raising some of my teeth further out of the jaw to correct my bite), with additional cranial osteopathy to help the upper palatal bone move, again, until it will move no further.  At the same time a bio-bloc (like a pair of sloped plastic fangs that pull the lower jaw forward every time it closes into correct alignment with the upper) will take my lower jaw along for the ride.  I have TMJ problems, and these should self-correct as the lower jaw joint (a complex mixture of muscle and connective tissue allowing multi-directional movement) relocates itself further forward along my skull to its proper position.

Probably, at the same time my upper skull should become more level, as it no longer needs to crane back to keep pressure off my airway, now the palates are moving forward, which should improve my overall posture.

Finally, they will implant false teeth into the recreated bicuspid gaps (although I might prefer dentures, because regrowing your own real teeth is on the near horizon technically).

At that point I should be "done", although I will need a night-time retainer for at least a decade afterwards.  (There might also be physiotherapy for my lips and gums to help them adjust.)

So far, the main impression has been that it's a bit painful, with the odd tongue ulcer and a bit of tooth pain, but that's already a lot better.  (I've also had an urge to rip the whole thing out several times, which I think is a normal animal reaction to being "confined", and is easily passed through without doing it!)

Certainly eating (even drinking) and cleaning the darned thing is difficult - so is speaking - but everything is improving each day, and I'm only a few days in.  (My father has a denture and told me it bothered him for about two months- now he notices it about as often as he notices his socks.)

It will take a few years, and cost a bomb, but I'm very excited, as I've suffered a feeling like a band of steel around my face since I can remember.  The feeling of things moving OUTWARDS and FORWARDS is wonderful to me.  With the right diet and exercise, I really feel I'm on a good path.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 02:14:28 am by Stig of the Dump »

Offline intouchwithinstinct

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2010, 12:05:06 pm »
Stig of the Dump, Wow I'm really excited for you!!  Do you think perhaps eating in this way will speed up the process?  I have suffered from TMJ as well its awful.  I have found many methods and ways of making it recover slowly over time but I realise something like this could make recovery go faster.  I know I have a feeling if I got one eating lots of healthy raw meat and fat, and taking blue ice fermented cod liver oil along with biosil drops(I know its not paleo but it really did heal my skin problems in the past and has shown to do incredible things on bone health and increases collagen one of the very fabrics which minerals place themselves onto bone with.  http://healthyimmunity.com/Products/BioSil-Drops-For-Skin-and-Nail-Care.html )  and lots of healthy paleo variety and HGH/Testosterone increasing exercises, would help the process speed up tons.  Any opinions on food that would help?

wodgina, Still very interested in cheaper appliances and do it yourself methods if you have some input for me there? 
"One wonders if there is not something in the life-giving vitamins and minerals of the food that builds not only great physical structures within which their souls reside, but builds minds and hearts capable of a higher type of mankind in which the material values of life are made secondary to individual character."~Weston Price~

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2010, 06:28:45 pm »
I'll look into all of those things you mentioned.  (I'm not so paleo puritan as to not have a go with things that might help.)

My main healing "secret" is intermittant fasting.  I'm doing fast-5 (here's the free PDF):

http://www.fast-5.com/

... and then largely raw animal fats and meat.  I'm undecided about trying pure zero carb yet, so I also have a meal of dark berries or stewed greens like spinach or brussels sprouts at 5pm (and eat the meat and fat before bedtime).

I'm also very keen on long fasts, as I've had some miraculous healing during them in the past.  (The bones can still move and grow during a fast - in fact I read somewhere that when salamanders regrow limbs, they always fast during the process.)  I used to fast as a raw vegan, and always felt disappointed that my health seemed to diminish as I restarted eating.  Now I know what I was missing.

I'm very excited about the whole thing too.

Online TylerDurden

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2010, 06:35:51 pm »
RZC is such a difficult transition that it's unwise to try it unless you already have some food-intolerance towards raw carbs in which case that's a good indication that you'll do fine on RZC. if one doesn't have any noticeable carb-related issues then it's wiser to wait and get used to and fully adapted to a raw omnivorous diet, and then try RZC once that's achieved.
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2010, 06:46:13 pm »
Thanks Tyler.  You know, I did try zero carb for a few days at first, and it was too much for me.  My revelation came when I saw a tramp eating a bunch of grapes on a sunny park bench, looking the picture of contentment, and I thought, there is no way I'm going to say "no - I don't eat grapes for health reasons" to anyone that ever offers me a grape.  ;D  ZC is a step too far for me, for now (and maybe forever, but who knows, as after all, true health is the final goal).

Offline intouchwithinstinct

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 07:40:08 pm »
Stig of the Dump, I hear what your saying, Grapes are the bomb, gotta love em, specially when a tramp is munching a bundle of them haha.  I love fasting as well I first found the amazement of fasting when I did a vision quest(boyhood to manhood ritual in native American culture done with medicine men) a few years ago.  It was a life changing experience for me.  I think its not just co inccadence that many tribal cultures around the world have traditional fasting and feasting rituals.  It feels more natural to me as well.  I don't think are ancestry's always had food so easy accessed as we do today, and would often go without.  I find when I eat good food after a fast It feels like my body utilizes all the nutrients better as well.  I have noticed my palate has widened considerabley this last year eating good food. I just want to do everything possible to reach my genetic potential. 

"One wonders if there is not something in the life-giving vitamins and minerals of the food that builds not only great physical structures within which their souls reside, but builds minds and hearts capable of a higher type of mankind in which the material values of life are made secondary to individual character."~Weston Price~

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2010, 09:49:45 pm »
I have noticed my palate has widened considerably this last year eating good food. I just want to do everything possible to reach my genetic potential. 
I have only just started on RPD (and I am still not consistent) and I had wondered if this might all mend on its own with consistent long term RPD, without any dental intervention.

(But then I thought, in that case, intervention cannot do me any harm either, as the body will repair any harm the intervention has done as well.  (To put it another way, if RPD is taking me to some sort of ultimate place, like an autopilot, then even a costly detour won't stop it getting where it's going.)

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2011, 05:42:32 pm »
I was just revisiting this topic, and I thought I'd give you all an update.  I've had my modified ALFs fitted just under a year now, and treatment is ongoing.

They most certainly work, and there is no question of them being 'over-hyped'.  I can't measure the changes precisely, but just by eye, I would guess that the upper and lower palates have been expanded in the order of just under a centimetre.  Certainly major tooth gaps have appeared where the bicuspid teeth were extracted that are very nearly tooth sized, and I know my dentist is beginning to consider moving on to the next stage.

(The next stage would be to use fixed braces to align both arches perfectly, and fit dentures for the missing teeth.  (I've decided against dental implants, as regrowing teeth from stem cells is a technical possibility on the horizon, and dental implants, once bonded to the jaw, are effectively irremovable for life (or until we have mature surgical nanotechnology).)  Then the whole "perfected" arch structures will be pulled forward with night-time traction gear, using a Biobloc to bring the lower jaw with it.)

Everything has improved:  my nasal breathing; jaw aches and tics; how wide I can open my mouth; how I look; and I even stand up taller (about half an inch).

But the main change is mental.  i used to be very anxious.  Now, although I still behave from habit as if I were anxious, I actually very rarely feel anxious any more.  The behaviour is all just dead habits - and so it is beginning to crumble and fall away.

(For completeness, I've also been having cranial osteopathy.  My diet varies from bouts of SAD, to cooked paleo, to raw paleo.  Still very inconsistent, but better than 99% of the population I'd guess.)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 05:54:24 pm by Stig of the Dump »

Offline wodgina

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2011, 08:45:31 pm »
Hey Stig

I'm fascinated. Photo's? my ortho gave the option but still, he told me not to believe the magic of ALF. It's seems it's an art, some ortho's don't have it.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

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Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2011, 09:05:55 pm »
Hi wodgina

I don't have "before and after" photos, but my orthodontist does.  I've seen them, and because there is no scale, they are hard to compare, although you can see the gaps appearing between teeth.  (To my eye - the general feel is that things appear to be deteriorating - moving from a nice (but very small) horseshoe of teeth with no gaps, to a more spread out curve with lots of random gaps.  But that appearance is deceptive - it all feels a lot better and roomier, gaps and all.)

More interestingly, I have plaster models of my original teeth/palatal arches.  I think when we are finished we will take more physical models for the retainer, and we'll actually be able to measure the increases between the two plaster models.  Maybe my orthodontist could photograph both sets of models side-by-side, so they can be directly compared in a photograph.  I'll ask them, but I don't know when that stage happens - it might not be until the very end, in about two years.

EDIT:  Also we are using something called a modified ALF.  It has a lot of plastic structure that the teeth bite on to provide sideways movement forces, and is a lot meatier than the wire ones I see in the photos on sites about ALFs.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 09:32:05 pm by Stig of the Dump »

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2011, 09:28:32 pm »
BTW, I'm "guesstimating" the expansion of the back teeth.  The upper ALF has a little width-adjustment loop, about half way to the back, and they have gone from being tight, to open about six or seven millimetres (over the course of two ALFs).  I'm guessing that that translates to nearly a centimeter change right at the back of my teeth.

Certainly everyone I know says I look subtly different.  Basically my teeth are pushing out into my cheeks and lips.  At first they get sore and chewed, with little bite ridges inside my cheeks and lips, but then the fleshy parts respond and expand.  I had a tiny mouth like a rosebud before, now I have a small mouth, but much more normal.  Plus I had creases around my mouth, which are still visible, but no longer actual folds of skin.

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2011, 10:00:36 pm »
I'm seeing my orthodontist next week so I'll ask them about putting photographs/models on the web.

Offline letifer

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2011, 09:41:36 am »
Stig, awesome, thanks for giving us the update. I just got my appliance about 2 weeks ago. It's not an ALF... pretty sure it's a schwartz appliance, looks like this: http://www.dentistrytoday.com/Media/EditLiveJava/Veis-Fig-2.jpg

Are you sure that the movement is around 1cm? That's huge! That must make a massive difference for you. I think the target for me is 2mm lateral width and about 2mm bringing the maxilla forward (haven't gotten the head gear yet). Not counting braces (optional since my bite is fine) it should take 4-6 months or so. I am expanding at around 1/16mm every few days. Even at just 3/16mm movement so far I've noticed subtle changes, like the ones you've mentioned. My diet is also mostly cooked paleo/wapf with extra carbs and the occasional sad/junk. Also eat some raw paleo (eggs,liver) now and then.

I've been meaning to make some plasters (dentist will have before/after, but want to get some in-betweens). So far I've been taking a photo every few days and my goal is to do some sort of time lapse video once treatment is done. Cheers.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 10:05:37 am by letifer »
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Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2011, 07:12:03 pm »
Stig, awesome, thanks for giving us the update. I just got my appliance about 2 weeks ago. It's not an ALF... pretty sure it's a schwartz appliance, looks like this: http://www.dentistrytoday.com/Media/EditLiveJava/Veis-Fig-2.jpg

Are you sure that the movement is around 1cm? That's huge! That must make a massive difference for you. I think the target for me is 2mm lateral width and about 2mm bringing the maxilla forward (haven't gotten the head gear yet). Not counting braces (optional since my bite is fine) it should take 4-6 months or so. I am expanding at around 1/16mm every few days. Even at just 3/16mm movement so far I've noticed subtle changes, like the ones you've mentioned. My diet is also mostly cooked paleo/wapf with extra carbs and the occasional sad/junk. Also eat some raw paleo (eggs,liver) now and then.

I've been meaning to make some plasters (dentist will have before/after, but want to get some in-betweens). So far I've been taking a photo every few days and my goal is to do some sort of time lapse video once treatment is done. Cheers.
That's great letifer - my device is quite different looking to yours - more plastic.  No I'm not sure about the width increase - I'm probably rounding up - but it is in that scale, ie. sort of little finger width, as there is room to insert two new "replacement" teeth in each row.  My palates were unnaturally shrunken - with just 23 teeth rather than the usual 32, and some crowding on those even.  So a lot of the "growth" is really just unwinding the worst of it.

Yes, I guess mine have been moving about 1mm a month.  You can certainly see it in my mouth if I look in a mirror - the upper palate is so much "roomier" - it was tiny before.  (For a while it bothered my brain and I found swallowing difficult - but I got over that.)  Plus I couldn't open my mouth properly before I started - I couldn't even put a teaspoon in sideways (measuring the opening top to bottom)!  Now I can put in a normal big spoon sideways, with some room to spare.  (For comparison, my Dad who has all his normal teeth can put an apple in his mouth whole.  I still, certainly cannot do that.)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 07:17:35 pm by Stig of the Dump »

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2011, 08:40:21 pm »
Wodgina, I chatted with my orthodontists about photos.  I could tell they were a tad uncomfortable, especially as they are only in the first stages.  But maybe I can get a camera (I think there's a little webcam on my netbook) and show you at least a picture of my teeth from the front so you can see the gaps they are creating, and an old photo of me as my teeth were (same teeth, but no gaps), for comparison.

In fact I'll do it now, live, as I post.

Here's "my teeth before" and "my teeth now": (see 2 attached files).

(Sorry my teeth have gone a bit yellow.  I've been a sugary tea-drinking alcoholic for a year!  But they'll go back when I stop being so daft.)

The orthodontists explained that only ALFs as designed by their creator (Darick Nordstrom?) actually work - and that they have a bad reputation because a lot of "new-age" practitioners have made their own cheaply, and don't understand the metallurgy required for it to function.

Offline wodgina

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2011, 09:20:12 pm »
Thanks stig. You look like your struggling to open your mouth in the first shots. From what I read this is improved with ALF. Could you do a shot like the before photo? I know, I ask alot.

My ortho is not keen, he has used them before, I'm going to go for it on your recommendation.

Would be great to live somewhere like London where you can have your pick of specialists. We're 10-15 years behind down here with everything.

On another note I still find it hard to believe that orthodonists still extract.

“Integrity has no need of rules.”

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Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2011, 09:42:36 pm »
Wilco.  Here is that photo:

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2011, 09:43:11 pm »
As you can see I'm a bit fatter! :lol:

EDIT:  I was super healthy in the first shot, doing a long (49 day!) fast.  My tongue says it all.

As for my mouth opening, I still struggle, but much, much less.  I would say it has gone from terrible to merely bad, and hopefully by the end it will be somewhere close to "average"!

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2011, 09:47:47 pm »
Here's a better one:

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2011, 09:49:26 pm »
Wodgina, do you want to give me a throwaway e-mail address and I'll e-mail you the website of my orthodontists?  I'm sure they'd be happy to chat with you, or your orthodontists to clear anything up.

EDIT:  Wodgina, I've just found the PM system and PMed you with it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 10:03:44 pm by Stig of the Dump »

Offline Stig of the Dump

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Re: A.L.F. Where to find them and how to get them?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2011, 12:38:11 am »
One more picture that says a lot about how my mouth opening has improved.

As I said (unfortunately no picture), I couldn't quite (or only just with some pain) get a teaspoon into my mouth sideways, before I started this.  Now I can get it in with about a thumb's width (nearly 2cm?) to spare (as graphically demonstrated just a minute ago, picture below!  ;D ):

« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 03:06:38 am by Stig of the Dump »