Author Topic: aged cheese much better than raw beef  (Read 1013 times)

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Offline ivanrk

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aged cheese much better than raw beef
« on: March 26, 2018, 12:08:35 am »
I am doing a lot of reading to find out why i cant digest raw beef and after reading studies like this: Determination of free amino acids in cheeses:
www . agriculturejournals .   cz/publicFiles/08676.pdf
i think hard cheeses can be compared to high meat or rotten meat and are much better than raw unaged beef.
For example brie cheese - from 100 gram cheese you have approximately 50 gram mousture and 25 gram  fat and  25 gram protein of which 16 gram free amino acids per 100 gram cheese/160 gram free amino acids in 1 kg cheese according to study/. The remaining 9 gram protein are not free amino acids but probably peptides and not whole casein. So with the cheese you get predigested protein and saturated fats. With beef you get easy to digest fats and impossible to digest protein if you have low HCL in the stomach - like many people do. All those claims that raw meat is self digesting are total BS in my experience and aged cheeses may not be paleo and may not be even raw  but are much better than raw beef because bacteria did the hard work to predigest protein to amino acids - the same happens in rotten meat but you can not buy rotten meat in supermarket.
It does not matter what is paleo and what your ancestors were eating, what matters is what you can digest and the truth is that raw beef is better than cooked beef but still very hard to digest because of collagen in connective tissue. I even think this collagen is as hard to digest as gluten. I think the problems that people have on zero carb diets are not due to the lack of carbs but dies to the presence of undigested protein in their diet - Aajonus say that cooked protein putrefy in the intestines but the same can happen with raw protein if you dont digest it. Unfortunately many  raw paleo diet  fans are just as brainwashed as vegans and make claims that have nothing to do with the truth - that ALL DAIRY IS BAD AND ALL RAW MEAT IS GOOD just because it is paleo. Yes in the meat there are proteolitic enzymes that work when you age the beef but dry aging beef takes weeks - this is not going to happen in our intestines - or if someone can show me a study that proves otherwise please show me this study.
Here is another study  - Tolerability of a Fully Maturated Cheese in Cow’s Milk Allergic Children - they fed children with milk allergy with parmiggiano reggiano cheese and most children have no problem

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2018, 12:18:16 am »
Allergies/sensitivities to dairy, however raw or pasteurised, are far more frequent compared to allergies to raw or cooked meats. Also, why would one dry-age raw meat for weeks? One could just  wet-age the raw meat in a fly-proof container outside, with exposure to air, and the meat would be well-aged pretty soon except in a very cold winter, say a couple of days.... Plus, one could mince the raw meats. Basically,  a tiny number of people might be so fouled up re their digestion due to past cooked diets that they cannot handle raw meats, but just leaving raw meat to soften and age is no big deal, then.
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Offline ivanrk

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2018, 01:20:48 am »
My post above is specifically about beef and other red meats - chicken and fish are another story they dont have so much connective tissues and don't need so much stomach acid. You are correct about true allergies but the problem for most people is not true allergy - it is putrefaction of protein in the intestines. Most people are not allergic to gluten they just can not digest it to amino acids and it putrefy in intestines. Mincing red meat does not help much in my experience with venison and beef, marinating in vinegar seems to help somehow. Where can i get more info about this wet aging method?  When i hang some beef outside it just becomes like jerky - it is even hard to cut it with knife. Maybe you are talking for some kind of fermentation of meat that will accelerate the process of aging?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2018, 01:25:25 am »
All I ever did was leave a box of raw meat in a plastic box(sealed) outside, and, as long as it was not winter, the meat became "high-meat" in 2-3 days max. Maybe UK/Austrian air is more humid.

Anyway, the vast majority of RVAFers find they digest all raw meats fine, fresh or otherwise. Putrefaction does not occur either as raw animal foods are close to 100% digested by the body. RZCers report very small amounts of stools, as a result.
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Offline norawnofun

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2018, 06:29:12 am »
I´d like to jump into this. I have also realized that I have a hard time digesting raw beef. Even when I ground it and make tartare out of it. It felt really bad in the stomach. I recently realized that I have very very low stomach acid. So I think I know the reason for not being able to digest raw meat now. In the beginning I thought its the low bacterial count in the intestines, since digestion continues there. But even with daily portions of natural pre- and probiotics in form of honey, kefir, sauerkraut among other things nothing much has changed. If your food is not broken down properly by the gastric acids it has a hard time getting digested in the intestines. I think the particles are too big and that´s why food is stuck, hence ur bloated. So allthough raw meats are supposed to be easily digestible as AV said as well, this does definetely not count for ppl with low HCL.

I have also noticed that raw beef seems to be the worst to digest, so it makes sence when ivan mentioned the connective tissue. Thanks for the hint :) Any kind of raw meat in fact is hard to digest for me. The thoughest meats are the worst. I have however noticed that dry aged beef (4 weeks) was easier to digest. I read that the enzymes already broke down part of the meat during the dry aging process and that´s why I guess its easier digestible than fully raw. I have also experimented with High meats, beef and salmon, and allthough it seems that it makes food move that´s stuck in the intestines, you still need Gastric acids to digest it. The high bacterial count doesn´t give you additional Gastric acids (or HCL) it seems, it just gives you more bacteria for the further digestion in the intestines. And I think you need to be cautious with HM on low HCL. The gastric acid is suppose to kill the bad bacteria as well, so if you have low HCL or missing the other acids such as potassium chloride (KCl) and sodium chloride (NaCl), then I am speculating that your HM could maybe do some harm.

Regarding dairy I´d also like to mention that its fairly easy on me. Unless it´s hard cheese like pecorino. Raw cows milk seems to be a great aid when digesting raw meats, think thats because of the extra enzymes that it provides, however raw goat milk isn´t (im speculating that´s because goat is apparently alkaline forming, but u need acid forming for meats).

I came to the conclusion that any kind of hard food will be an issue if you have low HCL or missing gastric acid components. Same counts for salads with raw veggies. Out of curiosity I recently tried steamed chicken and fish, and voila, digestion was very smooth and food didn´t get stuck in the intestines. I think it´s because the cooking proccess makes certain meats softer (like fish) and somehow breaks down enzymes so your stomach has an easier time digesting it. Which is a bit contrary since enzymes are suppose to help with digestion and cooking would kill them? I don´t know. How are u battling your low HCL ivan?

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2018, 05:01:00 pm »
Your mileage may vary.

Cannot generalize.

Depends on the cheese, depends on the beef, depends on the person, depends on the person's current needs.
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Offline Fenrir

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2018, 12:32:17 pm »
I myself cant speak from the stance of having poor stomach acids, i can see how beef protien may be hard to digest for some people, but i would be weary of replacing it with even raw dairy products.
The one thing ive noticed that really speaks to me is the amount of tartar build up on my teeth, when i was eating dairy just occaisionally in the form of raw roquefort i would end up with a large amount of tartar where my gums have eroded a bit on the inside of my bottom teeth, but since cutting out dairy the tartar production has been drastically reduced.
Overall both ways my dental health has been good thats the only thing in my diet thats changed between my last two dental visits, i dont think raw dairy will give you cavities and rot in your mouth the way many non paleo foods do, but i feel it could cause a greater imbalance in your ratio of calcium to other minerals perhaps causing who knows what kinds of issues where ever in your body long term, maybe none other than tartar buildup but maybe many in all manner of places?

Overall i think raw dairy is a better food than cooked foods but i truly think if you can get your body to the point its capable of digesting raw meats efficiently youll be far better off in the long run.
As to how to get to that point hopefully theres someone with more experience than i, i would think at the least you should get pure fat sources of raw meat you can digest such as back fat or marrow or suet and then use those for most of your calories and at least minimizing your dairy intake that way.

Offline PaganGoy

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2018, 12:39:13 am »
I use raw cheeses mainly just as an extra source of fat and calories as in the case of a triple crème and or as form of ketogenic resistance starch as in the case of harder cheeses.  My stomach acid has lately been very high when hungry and this addition helps calm it down if that makes sense.

Offline political atheist

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2018, 03:06:58 am »
why not add  few tbls of raw pineapple or papaya to meat? they are full of enzymes

Offline ivanrk

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2018, 03:48:57 am »
How many topics like this https://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/maldigestion/     do you need to understand some simple facts about digestion. What you say is based on nothing more than your own opinion - despite the fact that this forum is full of people that complain of digestive problems even after going raw paleo - and it seems many people before me explained here why this happens and instead of pin their topics to help others you
argue with them. Please educate yourself how exactly is food digested by reading real science not books like AVs. And Aajonus claims were the same - just his own wrong opinion - he says that his vagus nerve was not working and so he had no HCL - this is just not true - i recently read a study that vagotomy does not stop stomach from producing HCL but interesting adrenalectomy do exactly that.
If you really want to help people in this forum - tell them to eat raw meats low in connective tissue like fish or organ meats - no red meat even raw - except maybe aged or  marinated in vinegar or with HCL tablets. Raw beef not only does not help people with low HCL - it will make them much worse as happened with me and others. And what is worse - there are even studies that claim that even fish is not possible to digest without HCL - hcl is even more important than pancreas for digestion because without HCL pepsin is not working and pancreatic enzymes are never activated in the small intestine. The real cause of ilnesses are mineral deficiencies - not Aaajonus bs about toxins detox bla bla bla. There are studies that prove that minerals are missing in todays food including meat - so eating muslce meat will not help most people - organ meats - maybe.




Anyway, the vast majority of RVAFers find they digest all raw meats fine, fresh or otherwise. Putrefaction does not occur either as raw animal foods are close to 100% digested by the body. RZCers report very small amounts of stools, as a result.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2018, 05:37:09 am »
I am not a fan of Aajonus, only agreeing with him on some points. As regards your own opinions, like I said, most RVAFers have no problems with digestion of raw meats. Those who do , find things get solved with the use of predigested raw foods such as high meat. Only dietary orthorexics like Nicola keep complaining......
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Offline ivanrk

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2018, 11:38:37 pm »
How are u battling your low HCL ivan?

The problem is that i have no success in fixing low HCL. I will try cortisol in low doses because there are studies that show that administration of ACTH or cortisol hormone normalize HCL - i have low acth and maybe low cortisol, i tried thyroid hormone but hey dont help. I have exactly the same experience as you regarding foods. When you cook beef you fix the problem with connective tissues but you make other proteins undigestible - so the only solution is dry aging. What do you mean by this:

I have also experimented with High meats, beef and salmon, and allthough it seems that it makes food move that´s stuck in the intestines, you still need Gastric acids to digest it

- do you find raw salmon, raw chicken or raw cod fish hard to digest? Was the salmon frozen? I read in some  book - some guy did experiments with HCL digestion and the result was that previously frozen salmon was not better from cooked salmon - i am now trying the find the book and get more info why this happens and if no frozen fish is better.  I tried to put some small fish in a cup with water and 5 hcl tablets and the fish was degraded - i tried the same with 30 grams of raw beef - nothing happens - raw beef is undigestible with low hcl. I have to try the test with chicken and salmon.

Offline norawnofun

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2018, 08:39:01 am »
Good that we are in the same boat and maybe by exchanging thoughts we might fix it. This i what I found out about this topic:

a) We need to look at the digestion of the stomach. HCI is just a part of it. The whole system is called gastric acid or stomach acid. Therefore just going for HCI might not solve the problem. Gastric acid consists of hydrochloric acid (HCI), potassium chloride (KCI) and sodium chloride (NaCI).

- hydrochloric acid (a strong mineral acid), Foods that mimic and can "replace" HCI in my experience and own experiments are raw corn on the cob (worked great but is expensive in the long run), raw apple cider vinegar (I mix a small cup of water with 5 tbl of ACV and have it sometimes before, but most importantly with and sparingly after food), red wine vinegar (works similar as ACV in same dosage) and raw orange juice (even pasteurized). Then I tried beetroot juice (didnt work at all unless I added ginger), HCI from Thorne Research - Betaine HCL & Pepsin (caused constipation- its produced from pork maybe that´s why or the vegetable cellulose in the capsule was the issue) and Premier Research Labs Premier HCI (caused constipation too, its from a vegetable source- think beetroot but I´m not 100 percent, however easy to find out).

- potassium chloride (somewhat a salt as well). Didn´t do much research about that and I don´t think its the same as "normal" potassium.

- sodium chloride (salt, so there is a reason why some people suggest to eat salt with food so the stomach acids work better)

b) Red wine. I noticed that red wine from syrah (shiraz) and cabernet grapes work great for the digestion of any foods including meats, raw or cooked. In fact when I ate too much and things are stuck in the intestines (such as constipation), or my stomach digests way too slow, then this is what always helps. A glass or 2 will do the trick. Important to stick to acidic red grape varieties such as syrah and carbernet, not grape varieties such as merlot. Syrah worked best for me. That got me interested, so I looked at the composition of acids in wine and you find this:

1.   Tartaric acid (found in grapes itself)
2.   Malic acid (is in foods such as apple, especially green)
3.   Citric acid (found in citrus fruits)

Since I didn´t want to drink that often I tried eating red wine grapes (the commercial ones not the proper red wine grapes), and I had non alcoholic red wine. Proved ineffective. Only real red wine helps. And the alcohol content in it too. It makes the stomach environment more acidic, so food digests better because of that too.

c) That whole wine subject lead me to do a cold pressed “gingershot” consisting (one portion) of 1 green apple (malic acid), half a peeled lemon (citric acid) and approx. a thumbsize of ginger (organic and unpeeled). That works wonders to aid and possibly “mimic” the stomach acids before and after food, or if some food is stuck in the intestines and doesn´t move. I always do a liter ahead, fridge it and have shot glass first thing in the morning. It could be that by adding a juiced grape and possibly salt it would be the best natural increasement of stomach acids, but I didn´t try that yet.

Other things that I noticed:

-   What I found works good too and people recommended it is to drink 2 big glasses of still water before a meal, that prepares and increase the stomach acids better and that seems to work.

-   I would refrain of drinking still water with foods, that will dilute the stomach acids, however sparkling water seems to aid digestion. I also wait like 30 min to 1 hour before I touch any still water after food.

-   Freshly pressed (or worst but still effective - pasteurized) orange juice but NOT concentrate being drunk with food seems to mimic stomach acid pretty well too. When u drink it with a protein meal it digests better for me. I´d say a big glass does the job.

-   Raw homemade kefir seems to aid or increase stomach acid too, since homemade kefir is carbonated. However only half of a small cup. Too much and it will need too much of digestion which can backfire.

It´s also very important to look at the causes of low stomach acid. They can be caused by stress, lack of sleep, alcohol and gluten plus overuse of grains (among others). I think the first look one should have when dealing with low stomach acid or HCI, is at the thyroid, since the thyroid apparently regulated stomach acid or HCI. So if u got a underworking thyroid (Hypothyroidism), u first need to fix that before trying to find something that mimics ur stomach acid. Otherwise it will be a never ending story.

I would be careful with cortisol, as far as I know it’s a stress hormone, so the more stress u have, the lesser ur thyroid might function and the lower HCI or stomach acids you might produce. But then again I might be totally wrong since I didn’t see the study.
What I am doing atm is this:

1.   I switched from raw paleo to paleo, because like that I can digest food easier. Note that I only steam white meats, I don´t fry or deep fry them, not even in oven. White meats that seem to be easy to digest are chicken and white fish. So Salmon or Beef is out. Game I didn´t try, still need to experiment. I am aware that cooked food even on low steaming temps is not good, but I rather have my meat cooked and digested than raw and undigested. My acid is so low that I can´t even eat raw salads, I need to boil or steam everything to super soft otherwise I can´t digest it. Then once the HCI comes back (to try that I´d do the morning sodium bicarbonate test) i´d switch again to more raw foods including meats. I still have raw foods like raw juices and raw dairy including raw eggs, that seems to be ok.

2.   Since low stomach acid or HCI can cause food allergies, hence auto immune issues (I got intolerant to many foods since I couldn’t digest the particles which went unbroken into the bloodstream which created sensitivies) I decided to do the AIP diet first, and voila no more bloating or pain. So the first step is to cut out all foods that cause issues and the same time increase stomach acid. Then gradually implement raw foods again.

3.   When I have a big protein meal I take a piece of unpeeled ginger and bite in it once. I don´t chew it, just bite in it and let the juices go down my throat. That helps tremendously for digestion. Ginger in general is great for digestion

4.   After eating I walk around 100 steps. That is recommended in Ayurveda as well “to get the food into the right places”. Then I would recommend to rest, so the body focuses the energy on digestion (and possibly secretion of HCI?), not on something else. Ideally you go into the sun and sit down, that speeds up digestion too I found. It could be due to the vitamin d of the sun exposure. Adding a non synthetic vitamin supplement d3  could possibly aid digestion, didn´t experiment in that yet. Or a natural food containing a lot of vitamin d, but it should be easy to digest. Again, I found raw milk a great aid here. Maybe due to the Vitamin D content? I dunno.


« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 02:23:19 pm by norawnofun »

Offline norawnofun

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2018, 03:05:05 pm »
I wanted to add something here. The importance of digestive enzymes. The book "Enzyme Nutrition" - The food enzyme concept by Dr. Edward Howell is an eye opener here. The first time I read it I had no clue about anything. Think its the best book about this subject. If I would re-read it (which I will) I´m sure I could fix things faster. Among many other suggestions it also mentions to eat raw pancreas and raw liver to fix digestion. I think User Sabertooth said raw pancreas helped him a lot. So that makes sense now.

Back to the subject. So, beside stomach acid, digestive enzymes are very important for general digestion. The main digestive enzymes (besides maltase, lactase, invertase, sucrase and so forth) are (not to be confused with food enzymes):

-Protease for Protein
-Amylase for Carbs
-Lipase for Fat

There are certain foods which contain these digestive enzymes. Kiwi, Mango, Pineapple, Papaya, Raw butter, Coconut, Avocado ....Now the one that I can remember which seems to have all 3 is Papaya (the greener the higher protease content) And I can confirm that. When I ate cooked beef (didnt do a raw meat diet back then) with papaya the digestion was incredible. Didn´t use anything else. So u might wanna try that but eat it with food, not after! I need to give it another try myself.

Offline norawnofun

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2018, 04:50:16 pm »
There is something else that works very well. It´s called " Heidelberger´s 7 Kräuter Stern". It was invented by German naturopath Bertrand Heidelberger (1845-1925) and it´s a mix of 7 dried bitter herbs which aid, cleanse and restore stomach, intestine, pancreas, liver and bile. It´s not very much known outside the "German World".

Ideally you do it first thing in the morning and at spring time (so around now). I read that it can restore totally messed up livers from e.g. alcoholics. Even when people were about to have liver surgery this saved and restored the liver. The best way to take it is, first thing in the morning, to take a pinch full of the powder (tip of a knife) put it underneath ur tongue and squish it around in the mouth for around 5 minutes. Then swallow. Like that the bitters will go directly into the bloodstream and to the respective organs. You can also make a tea but the inventor did as described before. I had tried it myself some time ago sporadically and every time i had a heavy meat meal and i took a pinch into the mouth,  my digestion was greatly enhanced and i noticed that my stomach was digesting much better! U can buy the stuff on the internet at amazon among other places. Ideally u buy it on amazon.de (not co.uk) otherwise the prices are a rip off.  They sell mainly the organic version and u should not pay more than 15 euros. A 100g package will last you for ages.

Then there is something similar based on a liquid, again with bitter herbs and it´s called "Schwedenbitter" invented by Maria Treben (1907-1991). Also known mainly in the "German World". They sell it on amazon as well and they have a alcohol free version. I never tried it but the concept should be the same and it might work as good, or better? as the one above.

Offline ivanrk

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Re: aged cheese much better than raw beef
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 08:31:27 am »

In dogs with pancreatic insufficiency i know they treat them with raw meat diet or raw pancreas added to their kibble but i think by raw meat diet they mean raw organ meats not muscle meat. There are people that have their stomach removed due to stomach cancer for example - and if you search for post gastrectomy diet you will see that their recommended diet is meat and cheese - so it is possible to digest meat - they dont even use raw meat - so these people digest cooked meat fine even without stomach -  no stomach juices - it seems the pancreas is more important for meat digestion.  I have also seen studies that link hormones with pancreatic insufficiency in people. Most probably people with digestion problems have both low HCL and pancreatic insufficiency caused by low thyroid AND low cortisol. Without cortisol thyroid hormones dont work - i read thyroid forums for years and thyroid glandular or hormones works for very few people - cortisol is the missing piece - most people actually have low not high cortisol - they have high adrenaline but low cortisol. When you go to the lab to test your cortisol they test for total cortisol - which says nothing about free cortisol.
There are several books about the importance of cortisol like Safe uses of cortisol from William Gefferies and he even claims that thyroid is not so essential like cortisol.

Among many other suggestions it also mentions to eat raw pancreas and raw liver to fix digestion. I think User Sabertooth said raw pancreas helped him a lot. So that makes sense now.