Author Topic: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods  (Read 19615 times)

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Offline CarnivorousApe

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 07:32:10 am »
Forgive me for perhaps being dense, but after 2 pages of comments I don't know what AGE is. AGE on google isn't going to return much in the way of meaningful results.

There was a link to pdf that explains what AGE is on the first page of this topic.

Offline CarnivorousApe

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2012, 07:39:16 am »
I really did not feel bad at all when I ate dairy, so I kept eating it.  Actually I was kind of addicted to gruyere cheese.   But I feel confused that I have not seen any health improvement after 3 months on strict high-quality RP diet (raw dairy is at least allowed in Primal diet).    So I think maybe dairy is the offender...After all eating dairy is controversial in the RP diet community.  I guess the way to find out is to cut out dairy for a couple of months...

I am a newbie to RP myself, so we can draw from each other experiences, Joy.

Maybe your addiction to cheese was a way to compensate for harsh transition to RP. I am transitioning for around year now and feel improvements all along the way.

I feel great on fermented dairy, actually it is a lifesaver as I still eat cooked foods, but I'm going to reduce amount gradually. Fresh milk however is a total killer for me.

Another reason for no visible improvments might be that body needs time do detox, might take a while.

It would be helpful if you elaborated a bit more, in addition to doc questions:

1. What improvements did you expect from the diet?
2. Do you feel worse on it or there is no change at all?
3. How rapid was your transition?
4. What was your diet before transition?



Offline Joy2012

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2012, 04:43:37 pm »
Thanks to all who are going to diagnose me and give me valuable advice.

Before January 2012 my diet was very-high-raw vegan (90+%) plus a little cooked seafood (2%).  I also ate a little bit of  miscellaneous food, mostly considered healthy by society.

Since late January 2012, My diet has been like this:
(1)    Truly raw Gruyere cheese from local pastured cows (almost 1/3 of my diet; that is horrible now I know)
(2)    100% grass-fed beef from Whole Foods ( minced in my food processor with raw coconut cream, coconut oil, lemon juice and lots of raw organic garlic/onion/cilantro/ginger plus a little store-bought cooked organic spices, warmed up in my dehydrator at 115 F;  I really love this dish)
(3)    Wild caught Alaskan salmons (smaller whole salmons, which are cheaper than fillets; processed the same way as my beef dish)
(4)    Truly raw cream from pastured cows at a local farm (often fermented into sour cream)
(5)    Raw organic walnuts, soaked and dehydrated

That is the bulk of my diet. Occasionally I have wild caught shrimps/scallops (from Whole Foods), bison from Slankers, organic produce (avocados, melons, apples, cauliflower, Romaine lettuce), organic decaf. coffee, organic herbal teas. I also tried some organs and bone marrow from Slanker's; I like liver/heart but I seldom eat them because of the difficulty of getting them. (So far I only ordered from Slankers once. I mostly shop at local grocers. )  I eat raw whenever possible (coconut oil/spices are not raw). I seldom use salt.

I have been low carb or very low carb on most days, because it appears to me LC/VLC is the pinnacle of RP diet. (I seldom test ketogenic though, as far as I can tell. It seems my body uses up all the ketones...or I eat too much protein)  I adopted LC because I wanted to find out as soon as possible whether RP is better than raw vegan.

I bumped into this forum accidentally in late December 2011. I was just looking for a raw forum which would give me permission to eat raw cheese and I was tired of listening to raw vegans’ “eating dairy/fish is un-ethical” accusation.  When I read the testimonials of the members on this forum, I decided RP is worth a try. I totally switched from raw vegan to RP within a month.

I have never had any serious health issues. I haven't seen a doctor since my childhood days. (Yes I have good health insureance but I am too lazy to go to the hospital for regular check-up.) Actually I have not had a cold/flu for more than one decade since I adopted a mostly raw vegan diet. But I do not feel energetic. And I do not look healthy these past couple of years (pale tired vegan look). These are the two areas I hoped to see improvement through my new RP diet.

I do not feel different now as compared to 2011. I do not seem to look different. (But I do not look at myself in the mirror often.)

I do enjoy my RP diet. Now I plan to lay aside dairy for four months and see if my beloved cheese is the offender. [As I am going to spend my summer in Taiwan where there is no raw dairy, this abstinence from raw dairy will be easy to carry out.]
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 05:10:25 pm by Joy2012 »

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2012, 05:00:48 pm »
Avoid raw veggie-juice as well. Bear also in mind that while some experience benefits immediately, some others take a lot longer(up to 2 or 3 years) to heal really complicated health-problems.

What is wrong with vegi-juice?

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2012, 06:18:05 pm »
What is wrong with vegi-juice?
It has been claimed that juicing not only releases more of the vegetables' nutrients but also releases more of the antinutrients as well, thus causing problems re deficiencies etc.
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2012, 07:03:21 pm »
Thank, Tyler. Do you have a short article that explains anti-nutrients?

Online TylerDurden

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2012, 05:36:43 am »
I do enjoy my RP diet. Now I plan to lay aside dairy for four months and see if my beloved cheese is the offender. [As I am going to spend my summer in Taiwan where there is no raw dairy, this abstinence from raw dairy will be easy to carry out.]
You have indeed been eating a lot of cheese and other dairy, so that is a possible culprit and an elimination test does make sense. What are you going to replace it with, marrow, suet, back fat, tongue, egg yolks, ...?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline CarnivorousApe

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2012, 07:23:14 am »
I have been low carb or very low carb on most days, because it appears to me LC/VLC is the pinnacle of RP diet. (I seldom test ketogenic though, as far as I can tell. It seems my body uses up all the ketones...or I eat too much protein)  I adopted LC because I wanted to find out as soon as possible whether RP is better than raw vegan.

I bumped into this forum accidentally in late December 2011. I was just looking for a raw forum which would give me permission to eat raw cheese and I was tired of listening to raw vegans’ “eating dairy/fish is un-ethical” accusation.  When I read the testimonials of the members on this forum, I decided RP is worth a try. I totally switched from raw vegan to RP within a month.

I have never had any serious health issues. I haven't seen a doctor since my childhood days. (Yes I have good health insureance but I am too lazy to go to the hospital for regular check-up.) Actually I have not had a cold/flu for more than one decade since I adopted a mostly raw vegan diet. But I do not feel energetic. And I do not look healthy these past couple of years (pale tired vegan look). These are the two areas I hoped to see improvement through my new RP diet.
...
I do not feel different now as compared to 2011. I do not seem to look different. (But I do not look at myself in the mirror often.)

Thanks Joy, great information and recipes :)

I personally don't think that LowCarb is a pinnacle of paleo diet (gasp!)

For me the pinnacle is - eat the way body evolved to eat. I believe our ancestors ate as much carbohydrate as they could get at any opportunity. During some seasons they ate a lot of fruits, berries, but they didn't stop eating high carb tubers whole year around. I also think that they started cooking tubers as soon as they managed fire as it increases amount of energy you get from them dramatically.

I found LowCarb claims dubious at best. There is wacky science behind them and it seems like every physically active low carber eats high carb meals after workouts which is suspicious to me.

Your diet seems amazing but it painfully lacks carbs in my opinion. Fermented dairy doesn't seem like a culprit to me.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2012, 08:32:47 am »
Increasing carbs is indeed another possibility to test. When I test things, I try to test them one at a time until I get a sense of what effects they have.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2012, 10:05:36 pm »
You have indeed been eating a lot of cheese and other dairy, so that is a possible culprit and an elimination test does make sense. What are you going to replace it with, marrow, suet, back fat, tongue, egg yolks, ...?


Since I am going to Taiwan soon to stay for 3 months, I will not have access to grass-fed/pastured animal flesh/fat/organs. Salmons there basically come from fish farms in China. So I really do not have much choice if I want to stay Raw Paleo.

 I will have to find out (after I get to Taiwan) what wild-caught seafood Taiwan has. (Tyler, thank you for having given me the names of some species of wild-caught fish that are not farmed yet.)  Taiwan is called “the kingdom of fruits” and has various kinds of hybrid delicious non-organic fruits. I read that peeled fruits are free from most pesticides.  So my Taiwan diet may be just wild-caught seafood and fruits mostly. I plan to take some coconut oil and raw coconut cream and raw dried spices with me to Taiwan.

Taiwan does have organic produce but most of it is prohibitively expensive. Now Whole Foods grocers suddenly appear very affordable and attractive.

One article Tyler supplied says that “fruits and sashimi or fresh raw egg yolk (mixed with avocado) combined, contain all nutrients you need.”

http://www.13.waisays.com/plants.htm

Maybe while in Taiwan I will be forced to test if this statement is true.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2012, 10:06:40 pm »
http://www.13.waisays.com/plants.htm

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/224159-Plants-Bite-Back-The-Surprising-All-Natural-Anti-Nutrients-and-Toxins-in-Plant-Foods

Tyler, thanks. I browsed the articles. They distressed me… So fruit and veggies do not exist primarily for the purpose of serving our appetites and health.

From these two articles, it seems to me that fruit is much better than veggies?

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2012, 10:08:07 pm »
Ah, OK. Now research can be done.

If your research results in useful information/insight, please share in simple language that is understandable to literature/arts majors.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2012, 10:10:50 pm »
Thanks Joy, great information and recipes :)

I personally don't think that LowCarb is a pinnacle of paleo diet (gasp!)

For me the pinnacle is - eat the way body evolved to eat. I believe our ancestors ate as much carbohydrate as they could get at any opportunity. During some seasons they ate a lot of fruits, berries, but they didn't stop eating high carb tubers whole year around. I also think that they started cooking tubers as soon as they managed fire as it increases amount of energy you get from them dramatically.

Your diet seems amazing but it painfully lacks carbs in my opinion. Fermented dairy doesn't seem like a culprit to me.

If you want to try the beef recipe, note that all the spices should be in dried forms; otherwise the dish would be too wet. Also if you place the minced beef (spread out in a plate) in the dehydrator for more than one hour, the top will be “browned” and taste sort of crispy.

Thank you for your thougths on carbs. I may have to go back to carbs during my stay in Taiwan...

Online TylerDurden

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2012, 10:25:39 pm »
Fruits are fine to eat. I also still eat some raw vegetables, but that's rare and I only choose those vegetables I like the taste of(only c. 5 or 6).

Everyone is different, but I don't find that I absorb or properly digest most types of raw eggs. Raw fish and fruit is fine for a week for me, but my experiments in the long-term along that line were not successful. But, like I said, everyone is different - I do best with c. 40% of my diet  being raw seafood(mainly raw wildcaught shellfish) and the rest consisting of meats, organ-meats and some fruit,  and a tiny bit of  raw veg here and there.
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline CarnivorousApe

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2012, 03:58:14 pm »
If you want to try the beef recipe, note that all the spices should be in dried forms; otherwise the dish would be too wet. Also if you place the minced beef (spread out in a plate) in the dehydrator for more than one hour, the top will be “browned” and taste sort of crispy.

Thank you for your thougths on carbs. I may have to go back to carbs during my stay in Taiwan...

Yes, I'm thinking about getting dehydrator to cure muscle meat. I tried raw lamb liver today. Sliced it on a plate, added some salt and pepper. That was great. Actually liver tastes strongly even without any spices.

I didn't notice organ meats in your diet, could it be another cause of low energy levels?

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2012, 04:54:59 pm »
Yes, I'm thinking about getting dehydrator to cure muscle meat. I tried raw lamb liver today. Sliced it on a plate, added some salt and pepper. That was great. Actually liver tastes strongly even without any spices.

I didn't notice organ meats in your diet, could it be another cause of low energy levels?

I use my dehydrator all the time. It is a great instrument. At this stage I still cannot stomach any raw animal flesh without warming it up first.

I had several pounds of organs in the past 3 months. I love liver. It is just that  I was lazy about getting organs from Slankers and also I love my minced beef dish so much...My thought was that I had not touched beef for years so it wouldn't hurt if  I should indulge in beef for a few months...  When I return to U.S. from Taiwan in late August I will strive for a more balanced RP diet.  I am not giving it up yet...I trust the testimonials given by the members of this RP forum...because a good number of them had tried other healing diets and they all testify to RP diet....

Offline CarnivorousApe

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2012, 05:36:01 pm »
I use my dehydrator all the time. It is a great instrument. At this stage I still cannot stomach any raw animal flesh without warming it up first.

I had several pounds of organs in the past 3 months. I love liver. It is just that  I was lazy about getting organs from Slankers and also I love my minced beef dish so much...My thought was that I had not touched beef for years so it wouldn't hurt if  I should indulge in beef for a few months...  When I return to U.S. from Taiwan in late August I will strive for a more balanced RP diet.  I am not giving it up yet...I trust the testimonials given by the members of this RP forum...because a good number of them had tried other healing diets and they all testify to RP diet....

I doubt that muscle meat was often eaten fresh in paleo times anyway. It is better be "predigested" in some way - marinated, cured or fermented. Organs and bone marrow is a different story.

I tried raw vegan diet and got crazy amounts of energy from it initially. However feeling hungry all the time didn't make me happy :) And I started to get pains in the left of my stomach (probably pancreas due to all fruits)

Switched to cooked vegetarian (hello gluten), felt even worse.

Started to get better slowly after switching to paleo. Still getting a lot of carbs, prefer cooked carbs (potatoes, non-gluten grains) to fruits.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2012, 06:24:11 pm »
Thanks for your testimonial. That is one more testimonial for RP diet



 I started to get pains in the left of my stomach (probably pancreas due to all fruits)


Why would raw fruit hurt pancreas?

Offline CarnivorousApe

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2012, 07:01:00 pm »
Thanks for your testimonial. That is one more testimonial for RP diet

Why would raw fruit hurt pancreas?

I don't know for sure it was pancreas, but it usually hurts in that place after I eat a lot of sweets. As fruits contain a lot of sugar that might be a problem if they are eaten constantly. Sugar -> insulin spikes. I always feel hunger after eating fruits, that's why I prefer cooked carbs.

Plus I heard that pancreas produces meat digesting enzyme and if no meat is eaten it start to digest itself.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2012, 02:22:35 am »
I don't know for sure it was pancreas, but it usually hurts in that place after I eat a lot of sweets. As fruits contain a lot of sugar that might be a problem if they are eaten constantly. Sugar -> insulin spikes. I always feel hunger after eating fruits, that's why I prefer cooked carbs.

Plus I heard that pancreas produces meat digesting enzyme and if no meat is eaten it start to digest itself.

I think the pancreas digesting itself is one of those very strange rumors that don't make sense. If you don't eat something that necessitates the enzyme the pancreas probably just stops making the enzymes just like if you don't have a whole lot of cancer cells the pancreas isn't going to use up its resources making cancer-killing enzymes en masse.

Also one has to be careful designating organs when one feels pain as pain can be referred or travel along meridian lines. Just like with trigger point therapy one can have something going on in one place with the cause or cure being affected somewhere else sometimes.

Offline CarnivorousApe

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2012, 06:50:44 am »
I think the pancreas digesting itself is one of those very strange rumors that don't make sense. If you don't eat something that necessitates the enzyme the pancreas probably just stops making the enzymes just like if you don't have a whole lot of cancer cells the pancreas isn't going to use up its resources making cancer-killing enzymes en masse.

Also one has to be careful designating organs when one feels pain as pain can be referred or travel along meridian lines. Just like with trigger point therapy one can have something going on in one place with the cause or cure being affected somewhere else sometimes.

I don't insist it was pancreas :) The thing is - a lot of fruits and no animal protein or fat is going to damage body in the long run. I think the same is true for a lot of meat and no carbs.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2012, 12:53:55 pm »
I don't insist it was pancreas :) The thing is - a lot of fruits and no animal protein or fat is going to damage body in the long run. I think the same is true for a lot of meat and no carbs.

Eating too much fruit sure doesn't work for me either - who cares which organs right Carnivorous? Lots of meat and no carbs super doesn't work for me. I'm still not going to say that neither extreme can never work for anyone - hey - look at how well Lex Rooker is doing!)  but it does seem like that middle path you are describing is the best bet for most people taking into consideration what options they have available from reports I've read here and other places. It's a pretty big range though - basically including everything except the most extreme pendulum swings. I think there might be some things that could affect how certain mono diets can affect a person though. Someone eating lots of fruit or all fruit that can't get fruit that ripened on the plant might not  have the same effects of someone foraging or eating out of their own organic orchard. In terms of all meat, Lex is eating the whole entire animal which might have a much different effect than eating just muscles or even a portion of the organs.

I know that going out and picking my own fruit right from the tree effects me very differently than store-bought fruits.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2012, 02:15:00 pm »
You have indeed been eating a lot of cheese and other dairy, so that is a possible culprit and an elimination test does make sense. What are you going to replace it with, marrow, suet, back fat, tongue, egg yolks, ...?

Will someone summarize for me the reason there is so much emphasis on raw animal fat in this forum? In Cordain's latest book, it appears he cautions against too much animal fat (less than 15% of diet), implying it may lead to heart problems etc..
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 04:09:22 pm by Joy2012 »

Offline Ferocious

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Re: Loren Cordain on AGE contents in foods
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2012, 05:23:55 pm »
Will someone summarize for me the reason there is so much emphasis on raw animal fat in this forum? In Cordain's latest book, it appears he cautions against too much animal fat (less than 15% of diet), implying it may lead to heart problems etc..
That's one of hugest myths. Cooked fat is the worse, but I still don't think it leads to heart problems. I think as regards to heat-created toxins, cooked fat is horrible. But raw fat seems to be our main energy/calorie source.