Author Topic: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?  (Read 38116 times)

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Offline roony

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2010, 01:22:11 pm »
    Which sugars do eggs have?

lutein? lol

Offline RawZi

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2010, 01:29:28 pm »
lutein? lol

    Ok.  I hadn't thought of that as a sugar before.  I know the yolks were sweet tasting today.  I'm trying to avoid honey with meat etc.  Maybe I'll see what happens if I go without it for a few weeks.
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William

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2010, 01:51:23 pm »
Fruits and nuts in the vegetal kingdom.
Liver, seafood, eggs, ... in the animal kingdom.

The fruits available in stores are said on good authority to be unlike anything paleoman could have found, being extensively selected for size and sweetness for many generations. Sugar bombs.

Looks like liver & eggs is it.

Offline RawZi

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2010, 03:21:17 pm »
The fruits available in stores are said on good authority to be unlike anything paleoman could have found, being extensively selected for size and sweetness for many generations. Sugar bombs.

Looks like liver & eggs is it.

    Just had some calf's liver.  Tasted sour.

    No fish really has carbs, right?  except maybe organs or roe.  It's hard for me to imagine to avoid an edible organ, even if it does have carbs.  I guess I would think different if I was doing zc and it was working, but I'm not doing either yet.

    Isn't lutein a protein or A vitamin?  Is it really a carb?  Or is it because of something special some chickens are fed.  My chickens eat live bugs, grass and skim milk.  Maybe the milk they ate made it sweet.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 03:26:50 pm by RawZi »
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carnivore

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2010, 03:31:27 pm »
The fruits available in stores are said on good authority to be unlike anything paleoman could have found, being extensively selected for size and sweetness for many generations. Sugar bombs.

Looks like liver & eggs is it.


Fruits can also be found on the trees. That's where paleoman took them. And they were not sugar bombs for him because he did not overeat them as he ate them according to his need.

alphagruis

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2010, 06:20:16 pm »
Has anyone yet listed paleolithic forms of carbs?

Just list all the organisms whether plants or animals living during paleolithic times  :)

As simple as that. All living cells and organisms contain carbs. Necessarily. Just open a book of biochemistry. Many proteins are actually enzymatically glycated in a specific manner.... 

William

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2010, 08:33:51 pm »
they were not sugar bombs for him because he did not overeat them

Paleofruit was not a sugar bomb because they had (and have) very little sugar in, and it is proposed that he did not overeat them because he could not. If you had ever eaten chokecherries you would understand.

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he ate them according to his need.

What need? The human organism must have fats, proteins which suppy all the minerals vitamins enzymes microbes. If you know of a nutrient not on that list, please tell us.



Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #82 on: February 10, 2010, 09:13:13 pm »
Just list all the organisms whether plants or animals living during paleolithic times  :)

As simple as that. All living cells and organisms contain carbs. Necessarily. Just open a book of biochemistry. Many proteins are actually enzymatically glycated in a specific manner....  

Well, I believe the glycogen in meat disappears completely a few days after slaughter. The USDA nutrient database states 0g for carbs in all meats but 4g per 100 for liver so I'm not sure what is going on. Pehraps the intramuscular glycogen still thinks it can be used after slaughter while the glycogen in the liver has no need anymore.

Also, how do you justify eating so much fruit in the summertime? The fruit is drastically different than any paleolithic fruit, I think? Is it just the fact that you feel good. Maybe our bodies are so compromised by previous decades of eating that we need neolithic carbs to feel good. Maybe most of our bodies will never repair themselves to the point where they can feel good on zero or very low paleoish fruits and carbs.

Offline Nicola

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #83 on: February 10, 2010, 09:17:29 pm »
PaNu Dr. Harris has bloged about the Kitavans and carbs

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/11/2/im-so-bored-with-the-kitavans.html

Nicola

William

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2010, 09:44:10 pm »
Dr. Harris writes well, and in his interview with J. Moore he writes:
"I had forgot I called Zero Carb the "Hezbollah of the low carb movement". I like that."

Me too :) Hezbollah are righteous dudes, and so am I.  ;)

Offline jessica

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2010, 10:02:14 pm »
If you had ever eaten chokecherries you would understand.

you are probably eating them at the wrong time of year...as far as over eating...very difficult without processing them somehow, but they do get sweet
perhaps animal meat was different back in the day and contained a different amount of carbs, vitamins, minerals or composition(not that muscle was made out of sugar and spice...but)? i think it certainly was much more potent and the fact it was from a less polluted environment, feed on a more nutritious food source and probably a lot more at peace in its habitat it was probably ridiculously ceremonious and satisfying, nourishing and healing and on many more levels to bite into and live off of such a source of energy....not saying we are comparing apples to oranges when comparing muscle meat but perhaps we are when we look at the wider spectrum of variables in comparing our life with theirs? maybe we have to be satisfied to do the best we can at this "point in time"
.........

carnivore

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #86 on: February 10, 2010, 11:04:44 pm »
Paleofruit was not a sugar bomb because they had (and have) very little sugar in, and it is proposed that he did not overeat them because he could not. If you had ever eaten chokecherries you would understand.

Finally you agree that fruits were a source of paleocarbs !

Quote
What need? The human organism must have fats, proteins which suppy all the minerals vitamins enzymes microbes. If you know of a nutrient not on that list, please tell us.

So our paleoancestors evolve to eat wild fruits but they didn't contain any valuable nutrients ???

carnivore

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #87 on: February 10, 2010, 11:11:15 pm »
Well, I believe the glycogen in meat disappears completely a few days after slaughter. The USDA nutrient database states 0g for carbs in all meats but 4g per 100 for liver so I'm not sure what is going on. Pehraps the intramuscular glycogen still thinks it can be used after slaughter while the glycogen in the liver has no need anymore.

Also, how do you justify eating so much fruit in the summertime? The fruit is drastically different than any paleolithic fruit, I think? Is it just the fact that you feel good. Maybe our bodies are so compromised by previous decades of eating that we need neolithic carbs to feel good. Maybe most of our bodies will never repair themselves to the point where they can feel good on zero or very low paleoish fruits and carbs.

The meat you eat is also drastically different than any paleolithic meat. So maybe maybe maybe...

alphagruis

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #88 on: February 11, 2010, 12:43:53 am »
Also, how do you justify eating so much fruit in the summertime? The fruit is drastically different than any paleolithic fruit, I think? Is it just the fact that you feel good. Maybe our bodies are so compromised by previous decades of eating that we need neolithic carbs to feel good. Maybe most of our bodies will never repair themselves to the point where they can feel good on zero or very low paleoish fruits and carbs.

I do not claim to be capable to justify theoretically anything about carbs in general and my eating of carbs in particular. In summertime I indeed may eat 1 or 2 kg of cherries at once when they are ripe on my trees (a short period once every year) as well as I may eat only oysters the day after. Could not see any adverse effect.

My posts up to now are just intended to point out the facts or observations, not yet to explain or make theories, its too early for that IMO. And the facts are obviously that we can live in a state of good health with very variable amounts of (raw) carbs in our diets.

Notice that I am also quite well on ZC or more correctly (ZC is impossible) on food of animal origin only as I checked recently during an experiment of about 20 days in december 2009. The only effect I could notice is somewhat slower bowel movements. Now I just don't feel any need to stay on this restrictive diet.

So I don't think that I "need neolithic carbs" because anything has been compromised by my previous diet. I rather guess on the contrary that a fraction of us (possibly those who get diabetes of type 2 when staying decades on SAD, not my case) have their sugar control mechanisms so impaired that they better stay away from fruit or even raw carbs for a while and so recover best on a LC diet.

Finally let me emphasize that there are not "neolithic carbs" on the one hand and "paleolithic ZC animal foods" on the other hand. Both animals and plants have evolved since paleotimes. Both have been domesticated. Beef for instance is meat from domesticated animal and I had the opportunity to compare it's taste to wild beaver or bear meat and fat. The difference seems to me comparable to the one between wild and man grown fruit.

Once more I'm a scientist very much interested in "ZC" experiments but not at all in ZC ideology.  
    
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 12:52:22 am by alphagruis »

Offline van

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2010, 04:17:39 am »
try comparing beef to elk and you may find as I do that it is similar.  Besides the fat content of present day beef,  my guess is that nutrient for nutrient it is similar to yesteryear.  But who's to know.   What I think we keep forgetting is what Lex mentions routinely, that is,  what we got away with when we were young is probably not the case as we age.  One very large factor is insulin resistance and the fallout when it hightens.  I think of the way I use to be able to unlimited amounts of cherries or figs or for that matter any sugary fruit.    I think most will find that after a period on zc one will then begin to taste the amount of sugar in fruits.  Before then, they simply taste pleasant or yummy. 

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2010, 05:13:03 am »
Thanks alpha for the detailed response as usual. Perhaps I should have asked, if you were ok with not having good non-self-experimental evidence that neolithic carbs are fine to eat.

I generally agree that it would seem that we generally destroy our bodies to process carbohydrate and that it is more likely that we would have our sugar control mechanisms compromised but it could also be the other way somehow as well. Perhaps years of eating processed carbs can leave some of us with a lower limit on the amount of carbs we must consume for optimal health. Perhaps this is why so many people fail with zero carb. I like to call it "carnivore", even though carnivore implies eating very small amounts of vegetation as well. I'm guessing children would be much more likely to adapt to being carnivore than us.

I'm still not comfortable with the majority of the argument being based on self-experimintation. Seeing that everyone here who eats carbs feels good or better than they do as a carnivore. This is fine I suppose and I'm very soon going to tinker with adding vegetation but I was looking for more. I'd rather not end up completely bald with cancer at 56 because I felt the same eating vegetation as I did without and the only vegetation I did eat was the highly modified stuff of the 20th century. I know that sounds a bit absurd but if I'm in it for the long run I want to get it right. My 7 weeks of being carnivore hasn't gone all that well and I really want to tinker with it but I also haven't given it near enough time to work. I go back and forth on whether to add vegetation all the time now.


Finally let me emphasize that there are not "neolithic carbs" on the one hand and "paleolithic ZC animal foods" on the other hand. Both animals and plants have evolved since paleotimes. Both have been domesticated. Beef for instance is meat from domesticated animal and I had the opportunity to compare it's taste to wild beaver or bear meat and fat. The difference seems to me comparable to the one between wild and man grown fruit.

Once more I'm a scientist very much interested in "ZC" experiments but not at all in ZC ideology.  
    

Sure both plants and animals have both changed drastically from paleo times but I agree with van that the nutrient profile of meat for most, if not all animals we eat today should be very similar to those of the past. The fruit on other hand has changed more drastically with respect to its nutrient profile and is much bigger, available year-round, more calorie dense, has more fructose with a lot of it changing even in the last 50 years. Perhaps someone can give a fuller more detailed unbiased argument here.

I like the link of the bushfood in Australia I posted earlier as vegetation that was much more similar to how it was in paleo times.


William

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2010, 05:49:52 am »
Finally you agree that fruits were a source of paleocarbs !

Fruits were paleofruits. Nobody eats them anymore.

Quote
So our paleoancestors evolve to eat wild fruits but they didn't contain any valuable nutrients ???

If you look around you, and believe the evidence of your own eyes, you shall see that our ancestors evolved to eat Big Macs (TM), poutine and beer.
This is one more reason why I don't believe that evolution story.

Offline miles

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2010, 06:12:21 am »
If you look around you, and believe the evidence of your own eyes, you shall see that our ancestors evolved to eat Big Macs (TM), poutine and beer.
This is one more reason why I don't believe that evolution story.

That does not make sense, William...
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Offline Nation

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2010, 06:22:04 am »
That does not make sense, William...

It made sense to me, i'm amazed that Phelps can win gold medals by eating pizza, pasta and pancakes. Everyone around me eats like that too and appear to be in good health.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2010, 06:27:52 am »
It made sense to me, i'm amazed that Phelps can win gold medals by eating pizza, pasta and pancakes. Everyone around me eats like that too and appear to be in good health.
  The whole point is that we haven't evolved to eat big macs etc. That is, I find that all old people suffer some form of damage caused by cooking whether in the form of atherosclerosis tendencies, increased aging-rate, dementia etc. Now, many of these issues can be slowed down or even stopped via massive medication with drugs and frequent visits to hospitals for surgery re hip replacements etc., but that doesn't imply adaptation at all.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2010, 08:17:05 am »
...So I don't think that I "need neolithic carbs" because anything has been compromised by my previous diet. I rather guess on the contrary that a fraction of us (possibly those who get diabetes of type 2 when staying decades on SAD, not my case) have their sugar control mechanisms so impaired that they better stay away from fruit or even raw carbs for a while and so recover best on a LC diet. ....
    
That's the 2nd or 3rd time I've seen raw fruit/carb problems suggested as possibly solely due to diabetes. I don't know where that view originates from, but I have problems with raw fruit and raw plant carbs of all types and I have never had T2DM or even pre-diabetes and I've seen many other non-diabetics report problems with raw fruit/carbs. I've even seen a few people report problems from the carbs in liver, though I haven't noticed that myself. I suspect that the [more common] issue is more to do with some sort of carb intolerance than diabetes, but that's just a wild guess on my part.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 01:19:06 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2010, 10:24:20 am »
I think candida is also a major issue as regards who does well with carbs.  The longer blood sugar stays high the longer candida has to flourish.  obviously there are immune factors that play into candida.   And intestinal flora, most likely the strongest from healthy breast fed babies.        Phelps can eat whatever he wants because he exercises like no other and the fact that at his age (and exercise level) his insulin resistance is probably nil. 

carnivore

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2010, 02:42:00 pm »
Fruits were paleofruits. Nobody eats them anymore.

If you look around you, and believe the evidence of your own eyes, you shall see that our ancestors evolved to eat Big Macs (TM), poutine and beer.

and don't forget cooked pemmican...

Offline RawZi

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2010, 03:32:22 pm »
If you look around you, and believe the evidence of your own eyes, you shall see that our ancestors evolved to eat Big Macs (TM), poutine and beer.

    My all time best three favorite foods, to avoid.  Anyone of those would probably always had made me barf.  I wouldn't know as I can't stand the smells.  I must be un-evolved or devolved.  Lowly me.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What exactly are paleolithic forms of carbs?
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2010, 05:26:53 pm »
    My all time best three favorite foods, to avoid.  Anyone of those would probably always had made me barf.  I wouldn't know as I can't stand the smells.  I must be un-evolved or devolved.  Lowly me.
  No you are more highly evolved as you are a remnant from the Palaeolithic era which was the last period in which humans were subject to natural selection. It's the modern mutants who've adapted to dairy etc to a partial extent who have regressed in evolutionary terms.
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero