Author Topic: Coconut oil and antinutrients  (Read 57844 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

carnivore

  • Guest
Coconut oil and antinutrients
« on: December 27, 2009, 09:18:35 pm »
It has been stated on this forum that coconut oil contains high level of antinutrients (lectins, salicylates...) like all nuts, seeds, beans, grains, etc. I have failed to find any scientific evidence on the web.

Has anybody some online references on this subject ?

Thanks.

Online TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,053
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2009, 09:26:05 pm »
I made a mistake in citing lectins a while back re coconut oil. It's the salicylates that are the problem in coconut oil, lectins are present in quite other foods.

Here's some vague links:-

http://www.salicylatesensitivity.com/food-guide

http://www.salicylatesensitivity.com/info2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8656907

When checking for studies on subjects add the word "pubmed" to whatever you're searching for, and you'll usually get multiple useful links.
“The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back.”
? Abigail Van Buren

carnivore

  • Guest
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2009, 10:17:54 pm »
I made a mistake in citing lectins a while back re coconut oil. It's the salicylates that are the problem in coconut oil, lectins are present in quite other foods.

Here's some vague links:-

http://www.salicylatesensitivity.com/food-guide

http://www.salicylatesensitivity.com/info2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8656907

When checking for studies on subjects add the word "pubmed" to whatever you're searching for, and you'll usually get multiple useful links.

I have found this one : http://www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.info/content/elimination-diet/salicylates.aspx
which gives a number (0.26/100g for dessicated coconut).
Better than nothing but not very convincing.

Online TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,053
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2009, 10:25:53 pm »
The available information seems to indicate that for most people small amounts of salicylates are fine(not for me and some rawpalaeos like Wodgina, though). But salicylates consumed  in large, regular quantities seem quite lethal.
“The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back.”
? Abigail Van Buren

Offline Furion

  • Egg Thief
  • **
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2010, 02:07:12 pm »
So this could be why coconut cream makes me feel nauseous?

carnivore

  • Guest
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2010, 05:20:16 pm »
So this could be why coconut cream makes me feel nauseous?

Salicylates are very common, including animal products (their flesh and organs, especially liver, can accumulate toxins from plant material they eat).

Ex : Raspberry has 20 times more salycitates than dessicated coconut, Date 14x more, watercress 3x more...

Coconut cream is full of fat and carbs, a nasty combination easy to overeat and very heavy to digest.


Offline RawZi

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,052
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Female
  • Need I say more?
    • View Profile
    • my twitter
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2010, 06:18:24 pm »
Coconut cream is full of fat and carbs, a nasty combination easy to overeat and very heavy to digest.

    What about fermented coconut cream.  Is that edible?
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Sitting Coyote

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2010, 09:23:51 pm »
The available information seems to indicate that for most people small amounts of salicylates are fine(not for me and some rawpalaeos like Wodgina, though). But salicylates consumed  in large, regular quantities seem quite lethal.

This seems like a pretty extraordinary statement.  What constitutes large quantities, and how often must these be eaten to be regular?  How many people have died from them?  I gorge myself on wild and domestic raspberries (and other wild and domestic berries) all summer long and as far into fall as possible, and these seem to have quite high concentrations of salicylates based on the above posts.  Yet I remain...

Offline RawZi

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,052
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Female
  • Need I say more?
    • View Profile
    • my twitter
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2010, 10:31:57 pm »
...  What constitutes large quantities, and how often must these be eaten to be regular?  How many people have died from them?  I gorge myself on wild and domestic raspberries (and other wild and domestic berries) all summer long and as far into fall as possible, and these seem to have quite high concentrations of salicylates based on the above posts.  Yet I remain...

    Maybe it depends on 1 if you're allergic to salicylates, 2 if you need salicylates and 3 how strong your kidneys are at the time (and what you ate with them if anything).  Perhaps a majority of people who choose RPD came from growing up with salicylate allergies.  I personally don't think I have any problem with salicylates.  I love berries too.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Neone

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • View Profile
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2010, 01:30:44 am »
I too eat the shit out of the wild berries when they're in season but have problems with coconut oil.

Here is why i think it is not good for you.

I used it a lot while trying to kill candida, it 'worked' we got the 'detox' from it....
if i eat coconut oil now, i will still get 'detox' and feel like shit...

i think that its really just that coconut oil makes you feel like crap and since you believe its detox you endure it.
That's not paleo.

Online TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,053
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2010, 01:52:59 am »
Given a recent post by 1 of our French members, it seems that salicylates aren't the issue. I also can't tolerate coconut oil at all, but find all wild berries to be fine.
“The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back.”
? Abigail Van Buren

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2010, 09:09:23 am »
I also don't get nauseous from even a large amount of organic berries (though they do exacerbate my dental plaque and give me dry skin), whereas a small amount of coconut oil does make me nauseous. I found many links indicating that medium chain triglycerides (MCTs) can cause nausea in many people and many commenters attested to this. I reported on this in the other thread. Coconuts also contain short chain triglycerides (SCTs), though I found less linking them to nausea. MCTs (and possibly SCTs) seem the most likely cause of most people's nausea from coconut oil nausea, since strong salycilate sensitivity is reported in only "a small percent of the population" (http://www.salicylatesensitivity.com/info2).

Granted, all plants contain their own toxins that they use as self defense against predators. Basically, they're natural insecticides, fungicides, etc. For example, "Salicylates in plants act as a natural immune hormone and preservative, protecting the plants against diseases, insects, fungi, and harmful bacteria."  So in my view it's not a good idea to eat too much of any single plant food or of any group of plant foods that share the same type of toxin(s)--which is another reason why "30 bananas a day" and "banana island"-type monodiets don't seem wise for extended periods. At least not without at some point eating some edible clay, charcoal or other detoxicant to reduce the toxin load. Mono-eating of plants enables the toxins specific to that plant to build up in the body. This can lead to nausea, diarrhea and other symptoms, which some people want because they consider this a "detox" of poisons. But ironically, in many cases the poisons likely came from what they're eating, and not necessarily from what was already in their body.

On the other hand, the toxins and toxin levels in fruits are generally less dangerous for humans, apparently, than those in "vegetables" (which is not surprising, since plants tend to want some animal to eat its fruits, though humans may not be the original intended animal of its habitat). So when mono-eating fruits you're more likely to get symptoms from excess carbs before you get symptoms from the natural insecticides.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

carnivore

  • Guest
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2010, 02:51:13 pm »
I also don't get nauseous from even a large amount of organic berries (though they do exacerbate my dental plaque and give me dry skin), whereas a small amount of coconut oil does make me nauseous. I found many links indicating that medium chain triglycerides (MCTs) can cause nausea in many people and many commenters attested to this. I reported on this in the other thread. Coconuts also contain short chain triglycerides (SCTs), though I found less linking them to nausea. MCTs (and possibly SCTs) seem the most likely cause of most people's nausea from coconut oil nausea, since strong salycilate sensitivity is reported in only "a small percent of the population" (http://www.salicylatesensitivity.com/info2).

Granted, all plants contain their own toxins that they use as self defense against predators. Basically, they're natural insecticides, fungicides, etc. For example, "Salicylates in plants act as a natural immune hormone and preservative, protecting the plants against diseases, insects, fungi, and harmful bacteria."  So in my view it's not a good idea to eat too much of any single plant food or of any group of plant foods that share the same type of toxin(s)--which is another reason why "30 bananas a day" and "banana island"-type monodiets don't seem wise for extended periods. At least not without at some point eating some edible clay, charcoal or other detoxicant to reduce the toxin load. Mono-eating of plants enables the toxins specific to that plant to build up in the body. This can lead to nausea, diarrhea and other symptoms, which some people want because they consider this a "detox" of poisons. But ironically, in many cases the poisons likely came from what they're eating, and not necessarily from what was already in their body.

On the other hand, the toxins and toxin levels in fruits are generally less dangerous for humans, apparently, than those in "vegetables" (which is not surprising, since plants tend to want some animal to eat its fruits, though humans may not be the original intended animal of its habitat). So when mono-eating fruits you're more likely to get symptoms from excess carbs before you get symptoms from the natural insecticides.

Can you give the links about MCT and nausea ?

I think your reasoning (eating always the same food can be dangerous) is also true for animal products. They too inevitably accumulate toxins and it is better to vary our toxins intake, whether from plant or animal.

Offline wodgina

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,304
  • Opportunistic Carnivore
    • View Profile
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2010, 03:53:35 pm »
Thanks PP

I enjoy being proven wrong ie Coconut oil/salicylates
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

Offline phatdave

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2010, 08:31:34 pm »
I think your reasoning (eating always the same food can be dangerous) is also true for animal products. They too inevitably accumulate toxins and it is better to vary our toxins intake, whether from plant or animal.

But a plant is grounded to one spot so needs various thorns or toxins etc to defend itself in that way, whereas animals are equiped with speed and agility to outrun they're preditors, that being their defence.

I thought that was the case, although there are probably poisonous animals/insects to eat I' not sure what would be poisonous/toxic in something like wild bison or venison.



« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 08:39:47 pm by phatdave »

Offline Sitting Coyote

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2010, 10:06:38 pm »
I've not heard of animals "intentionally" accumulating toxins, but in many areas of the US the soil and thus plants have high and natural accumulations of different toxins, particularly heavy metals.  Here in vermont, for instance, I'm told there are relatively high concentrations of cadmium in the soil so the state recommends we don't eat livers from large animals we hunt, like adult deer or moose because of the cadmium accumulation.  I've heard similar things out west regarding arsenic.  So it may be wise to eat the meat from a variety of species as well as age classes within each species to avoid consistently high doses of contaminants that tend to accumulate. 

Offline phatdave

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2010, 05:04:09 am »
Thank you for that answer, you make a good point. Slightly depressing the state of the world (at times) but you must of course play the hand you are delt, so to speak.

Any idea where the mentioned cadmium originates? My previous statement assumes a human source, yet I'm not even sure of what it is.

Thanks,

David

Offline Sitting Coyote

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2010, 06:59:36 am »
I don't think it is a human source.  Like I said, some regions have naturally high soil concentrations of different elements due to local geology.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2010, 08:07:42 am »
I've not heard of animals "intentionally" accumulating toxins, but in many areas of the US the soil and thus plants have high and natural accumulations of different toxins, particularly heavy metals.  Here in vermont, for instance, I'm told there are relatively high concentrations of cadmium in the soil so the state recommends we don't eat livers from large animals we hunt, like adult deer or moose because of the cadmium accumulation.  I've heard similar things out west regarding arsenic.  So it may be wise to eat the meat from a variety of species as well as age classes within each species to avoid consistently high doses of contaminants that tend to accumulate. 
If you eat plenty of selenium, from bioavailable sources such as fish, shellfish, chicken, turkey and pork, then you don't have much to worry about regarding heavy metals and mercury, according to the latest science:

Heavy Metal Toxicity     
http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C15891.html
Selenium is able to combine with metals such as cadmium and mercury to reduce their toxicity.

Don't Worry About Mercury in Fish If....
By Jean Carper
Anti-Aging Expert, Best-Selling Author and USA Weekend Columnist
About the Author
August 27, 2006
http://www.stopagingnow.com/news/news_flashes/1761/Don-t-Worry-About-Mercury-in-Fish-If?print=1

If you're leery of eating fish because of a mercury hazard, here's some incredibly good news.  Mercury in fish is not likely to harm you after all, say some leading experts.   

The reason: Mercury's toxic hazards are neutralized when you also eat selenium, a trace mineral that, experts say, counters the toxicity of mercury. In fact, most fish are so rich in selenium that a threat of human mercury poisoning from eating fish is very remote, according to a new analysis by Dr. Nicholas Ralston, University of North Dakota.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

carnivore

  • Guest
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2010, 03:17:43 pm »
If you eat plenty of selenium, from bioavailable sources such as fish, shellfish, chicken, turkey and pork, then you don't have much to worry about regarding heavy metals and mercury, according to the latest science:

Heavy Metal Toxicity     
http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C15891.html
Selenium is able to combine with metals such as cadmium and mercury to reduce their toxicity.

Don't Worry About Mercury in Fish If....
By Jean Carper
Anti-Aging Expert, Best-Selling Author and USA Weekend Columnist
About the Author
August 27, 2006
http://www.stopagingnow.com/news/news_flashes/1761/Don-t-Worry-About-Mercury-in-Fish-If?print=1

If you're leery of eating fish because of a mercury hazard, here's some incredibly good news.  Mercury in fish is not likely to harm you after all, say some leading experts.   

The reason: Mercury's toxic hazards are neutralized when you also eat selenium, a trace mineral that, experts say, counters the toxicity of mercury. In fact, most fish are so rich in selenium that a threat of human mercury poisoning from eating fish is very remote, according to a new analysis by Dr. Nicholas Ralston, University of North Dakota.


Well, better to choose the less polluted environment for marine food : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata_Bay

carnivore

  • Guest
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2010, 03:29:33 pm »
I've not heard of animals "intentionally" accumulating toxins, but in many areas of the US the soil and thus plants have high and natural accumulations of different toxins, particularly heavy metals.  Here in vermont, for instance, I'm told there are relatively high concentrations of cadmium in the soil so the state recommends we don't eat livers from large animals we hunt, like adult deer or moose because of the cadmium accumulation.  I've heard similar things out west regarding arsenic.  So it may be wise to eat the meat from a variety of species as well as age classes within each species to avoid consistently high doses of contaminants that tend to accumulate. 

Animals accumulate in their flesh natural toxins from plant they ingest, especially captive animals because their choice is limited.

Online TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,053
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2010, 07:13:20 pm »
Some poisonous frogs in South America deliberately eat a specific diet of plants in order to produce toxins in their skin.

As for the issue of antinutrients, humans are astonishingly adaptable. For example, it was mentioned that Austrian peasants from a couple of centuries ago were able to endure twice the fatal dose of arsenic in their bodies without health-issues  simply because they'd been eating tiny amounts of it throughout their lives and had adapted to it.

I am going to have to do that raw food myths page soon, it's REALLY annoying to find people constantly referring to the mythical dangers of mercury in seafood.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 05:55:05 pm by TylerDurden »
“The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back.”
? Abigail Van Buren

William

  • Guest
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2010, 08:56:26 pm »
I am going to have to do that raw food myths page soon, it's REALLY annoying to find people constantly referring to the mythical dangers of mercury in seafood.

"Minimata disease [‚min·??mäd·? di‚z?z]
(medicine)
A disorder resulting from methyl mercury poisoning, which occurred in epidemic proportions in 1956 in Minimata Bay, a Japanese coastal town, where the inhabitants ate fish contaminated by industrial pollution; the most obvious symptoms are tremors and involuntary movements.

McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific & Technical Terms, 6E, Copyright © 2003 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc."


What is outstanding with Minamata disease is that it had identifiable symptoms.
Mercury poisoning has no symptoms of its own, but rather shows as anything else such as cancer, heart disease, pneumonia, dental caries, hangnails etc.

Result is that it is denied and or ignored, unless this protocol actually works, in which case one will see the increase in mercury in the urine:
http://www.bioraynaturaldetox.com/where-do-i-start/detox-protocols/default.aspx


Online TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,053
  • Country: at
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2010, 12:44:54 am »
"Minimata disease [‚min·??mäd·? di‚z?z]
(medicine)
A disorder resulting from methyl mercury poisoning, which occurred in epidemic proportions in 1956 in Minimata Bay, a Japanese coastal town, where the inhabitants ate fish contaminated by industrial pollution; the most obvious symptoms are tremors and involuntary movements.

This is one of the biggest lies among raw-foodists, that mercury in fish is supposedly harmful. In a way, William is useful in his ridiculous wrong-headedness, as he loves pointing out the many ludicrous, fallacious myths among RVAFers, such as the mercury-in-fish poisoning "theory", the absurd claims re smoking being supposedly "healthy" etc.

As anybody knows, there are definitive studies/observations completely denouncing the absurd claims about mercury in seafood  etc.:-

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/story/index.cfm?id=886

« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 07:44:03 pm by TylerDurden »
“The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back.”
? Abigail Van Buren

carnivore

  • Guest
Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2010, 02:32:48 am »
This is one of the biggest lies among raw-foodists, that mercury in fish is supposedly harmful. In a way, William is useful in his ridiculous wrong-headedness, as he loves pointing out the many ludicrous, fallacious myths mong RVAFers, such as the mercury-in-fish poisoning "theory", the absurd claims re smoking being supposedly "healthy" etc.

As anybody knows, there are definitive studies/observations completely denouncing the absurd claims about mercury in seafood  etc.:-

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/story/index.cfm?id=886

Do you have other references to support your claim ?
"However, recent evidence in animals suggests that learning, memory and behavioral problems linked to mercury might begin in adolescence."