Author Topic: Coconut oil and antinutrients  (Read 57839 times)

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William

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2010, 08:28:59 am »
" William could even say, "Heated pemmican works great for me,"

Not. I have never heated pemmican over 37°C, and cannot imagine why anyone would do so.

 
Quote
but I do think he goes too far when he implies that it would be optimal for everyone without substantial evidence to back it up beyond the experience of a few people.

There must be some who gave it an honest and properly careful try, and failed, but we have not heard such, and can't really know. What I see are the glowing reports of success in the pemmican thread in ZIOH, the polar explorers, the voyageurs, and traditionally all northern Canadians.
That's more than a few people.


 
Quote
If it turns out that heated pemmican is actually superior to raw meat and fat, then objectively we might need to reconsider the definition of "raw" in RPD, or maybe even alter it to raw-and-low-cooked-Paleo Diet, but I don't see that happening any time soon here, if ever.

"Raw" means it contains all the original enzymes and whatever else is required for complete digestion.
"Cooked" means poisoned, for me.
"Render" means to separate the poisons both present and potential from the fat, retaining only the pure essential fat/lipids/tallow. This tallow is unaffected by heat.

I do not believe that pemmican is superior to raw fat meat, having lived on raw Black Angus porterhouse steaks for a few days while travelling in the northern U.S.A.  and enjoyed it, but these are too expensive locally.

Pemmican is superior for a stored food, and for times when the right stuff is not available.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 08:38:24 am by William »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2010, 09:08:07 am »
Not. I have never heated pemmican over 37°C, and cannot imagine why anyone would do so.
I thought Lex recommended a temp that high.... In any case, that means your pemmican is raw by the standards here, so you could call it "raw pemmican" to put Tyler at ease. I hope this helps avoid arguments.

Quote
There must be some who gave it an honest and properly careful try, and failed, but we have not heard such,...
As I recall, some people here and at ZIOH said they tried it and didn't do well. I don't think it wasn't clear why, though. Maybe they heated it to higher temps?

Quote
What I see are the glowing reports of success in the pemmican thread in ZIOH, the polar explorers, the voyageurs, and traditionally all northern Canadians.
That's more than a few people.
Good point, but I meant among people who had also tried eating only raw. How many people claim pemmican is better than ordinary raw? For myself, I don't notice much difference between eating my raw pemmican and my ground beef with raw tallow, except that I get more of the euphoria feeling from the latter, but that could be because I use grassfed meats for the ground mix vs. grain-finished for the pemmican. Some day I hope I get a bunch of grass-fed muscle meat so I can try grass-fed pemmican and see if there's any difference.

Quote
"Render" means to separate the poisons both present and potential from the fat, retaining only the pure essential fat/lipids/tallow. This tallow is unaffected by heat.
Render for me means "melt," which results in separating out the connective tissue and off-tasting bits of meat.

Quote
I do not believe that pemmican is superior to raw fat meat, having lived on raw Black Angus porterhouse steaks for a few days while travelling in the northern U.S.A.  and enjoyed it, but these are too expensive locally.

Pemmican is superior for a stored food, and for times when the right stuff is not available.
OK, thanks for the explanation. Why didn't you mention that to Tyler in the first place? Were you pulling his leg? :) When you make it for stored food do you heat it higher then, or just longer (to get all the water out)?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 12:28:32 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2010, 09:36:04 am »

Render for me means "melt," which results in separating out the connective tissue and off-tasting bits of meat.
OK, thanks for the explanation. Why didn't you mention that to Tyler in the first place? Were you pulling his leg? :)

The endless squabble is caused by TD's inability to distinguish between tallow and cooked fat, and a possible problem with fat digestion - note that he has been unable to kick the carbohydrates.

Quote
When you make it for stored food do you heat it higher then, or just longer (to get all the water out)?

I always heat fat to ~200°F for about 24 hours, relying on the vapour pressure to drive off all the water, then filter out the poisonous (due to heating) solids.

So the meat/jerky is raw, no argument, and it is irrelevant as to whether the tallow (no longer called fat), has been heated over 40°C because that is the temperature at which enzymes are destroyed, and there are no enzymes needed for digesting tallow. Mixed at =<100°F.
This has been proven by all the people who have lived on it.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2010, 09:42:23 am »
The endless squabble is caused by TD's inability to distinguish between tallow and cooked fat, and a possible problem with fat digestion - note that he has been unable to kick the carbohydrates.

I always heat fat to ~200°F for about 24 hours, relying on the vapour pressure to drive off all the water, then filter out the poisonous (due to heating) solids.

So the meat/jerky is raw, no argument, and it is irrelevant as to whether the tallow (no longer called fat), has been heated over 40°C because that is the temperature at which enzymes are destroyed....
Isn't 200°F ~ 93.3°C? That's higher than 40°C, which is 104°F.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2010, 10:00:51 am »
Isn't 200°F ~ 93.3°C? That's higher than 40°C, which is 104°F.

Yes, it is. If pemmican is to be stored for years, the water must be driven off the fat, so temps for rendering must be close to boiling.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2010, 11:00:03 am »
OK, then it's not generally considered raw, as I understand it, since it's heated over 40°C.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2010, 11:13:34 am »
OK, then it's not generally considered raw, as I understand it, since it's heated over 40°C.

If it's not raw, I'm dead and you are communicating with a ghost.
And the polar explorers, voyageurs, Indians etc. got scurvy and died too. Will you tell delfuego?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 11:18:52 am by William »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2010, 12:27:39 pm »
I think I see where you are going with this. Do I have the following right: since the smoke temperature of saturated animal fat is higher than other tested fats, and since you observe no health problems in the examples you cited, you posit that no enzymes are destroyed by the heating of suet to 200 degrees F and it therefore can be considered raw, even above 104 degrees F?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2010, 12:35:20 pm »
OK I confess - I don't give a faint fart if it's raw.

I eat the stuff because there isn't anything else that works.

carnivore

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2010, 03:21:31 pm »
...  the tallow (no longer called fat), has been heated over 40°C because that is the temperature at which enzymes are destroyed, and there are no enzymes needed for digesting tallow. ...

Then what is the purpose of lipase ?
Do you have any evidences, other than your experience, that enzymes are not needed to digest fat ?

carnivore

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2010, 03:23:31 pm »
As I recall, some people here and at ZIOH said they tried it and didn't do well. I don't think it wasn't clear why, though. Maybe they heated it to higher temps?

Indeed, pemmican made from suet is harder to digest than pemmican made from muscle fat. Some have made this experience on ZIOH.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2010, 08:15:08 pm »
One of those empirical principles is that a diet that includes carbohydrates such as fruit and veg. is not paleo.
Again, a false assumption and easily disproved as plant-matter was consumed in palaeo times, given past studies I've cited.

Quote
Another is that a diet that achieves the desired result and has no conflict with archaeology must be paleo. This is pemmican.
pemmican could never have been consumed until after the period cooking was introduced, c.250,000 years ago, in the last 10% of the Palaeolithic era. Even then, palaeo HGs were undoubtedly still consuming some raw meats given the traditional diets of  palaeodiet-style HGs in the Neolithic era, such as the Inuit. And given the reports by many of the side-effects caused by pemmican, poorer digestion etc., it cannot be viewed as a health-food.

I also see you're posting more nonsense, claiming that cooked animal fat doesn't require enzymes for digestion. Of course, it does(re lipase), the body just has to produce more enzymes within its digestive system in order to make up for the fact that the enzymes in the raw fat were destroyed by rendering/heating it, thus speeding up aging of the relevant organs etc.

*Like PP said, I have no objection to people stating that they are consuming pemmican or some other cooked cr*p due to not being able to access higher quality foods or because they're just then transitioning to raw, or because they don't feel their health is that much ruined by its consumption by comparison to other foods so that they eat it for travel purposes/social reasons or whatever, as long as the reason is mentioned. But it is absolutely unacceptable to actively promote pemmican on this forum, since this is not a cooked-palaeo forum and especially since others have had major issues with cooked animal fat in the past..Given the unnecessary trollish nature of past postings about pemmican(such as a recent, irrelevant post promoting pemmican on my own journal, I think I'll just delete any such nonsense in future, if this continues. It's simply childish and immature).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 08:32:47 pm by TylerDurden »
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alphagruis

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2010, 09:07:01 pm »
William, I think I've got the point of how you prepare your tallow by heating your fat to melt it and more importantly dry it at temperatures about 200 °F.

Do you mind  telling us how you prepare the meat that goes into your pemmican? I guess it is dried. What is the drying temperature ?   

William

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2010, 09:57:34 pm »
William, I think I've got the point of how you prepare your tallow by heating your fat to melt it and more importantly dry it at temperatures about 200 °F.

Do you mind  telling us how you prepare the meat that goes into your pemmican? I guess it is dried. What is the drying temperature ?   

I slice partly frozen beef to <6mm, then set the thermostat to 95°F, and leave it for 4 days.

carnivore

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2010, 10:04:56 pm »
Again, a false assumption and easily disproved as plant-matter was consumed in palaeo times, given past studies I've cited.
 pemmican could never have been consumed until after the period cooking was introduced, c.250,000 years ago, in the last 10% of the Palaeolithic era. Even then, palaeo HGs were undoubtedly still consuming some raw meats given the traditional diets of  palaeodiet-style HGs in the Neolithic era, such as the Inuit. And given the reports by many of the side-effects caused by pemmican, poorer digestion etc., it cannot be viewed as a health-food.

I also see you're posting more nonsense, claiming that cooked animal fat doesn't require enzymes for digestion. Of course, it does(re lipase), the body just has to produce more enzymes within its digestive system in order to make up for the fact that the enzymes in the raw fat were destroyed by rendering/heating it, thus speeding up aging of the relevant organs etc.

*Like PP said, I have no objection to people stating that they are consuming pemmican or some other cooked cr*p due to not being able to access higher quality foods or because they're just then transitioning to raw, or because they don't feel their health is that much ruined by its consumption by comparison to other foods so that they eat it for travel purposes/social reasons or whatever, as long as the reason is mentioned. But it is absolutely unacceptable to actively promote pemmican on this forum, since this is not a cooked-palaeo forum and especially since others have had major issues with cooked animal fat in the past..Given the unnecessary trollish nature of past postings about pemmican(such as a recent, irrelevant post promoting pemmican on my own journal, I think I'll just delete any such nonsense in future, if this continues. It's simply childish and immature).

I think any extreme positions (pemmican is the best possible food for human, pemmican is cooked cr*p, carbs are the evil, etc.) only generates perpetual conflicts that lead to nowhere. The truth is often between these extreme positions.

William

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2010, 10:39:14 pm »
plant-matter was consumed in palaeo times, given past studies I've cited.

The fruit and veg. available were not eaten in the paleolithic, as you know.
We would all be interested if you would experiment by eating the same plant-matter that paleoman might have eaten.
Until you have tried such a paleolithic diet your opinions are deprecated.

Quote
Given the unnecessary trollish nature of past postings about pemmican(such as a recent, irrelevant post promoting pemmican on my own journal, I think I'll just delete any such nonsense in future, if this continues. It's simply childish and immature).

Would you consider learning the difference between the meaning of the word "cook" and the word "render"?

You might then be able to explain your attitude.

alphagruis

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2010, 03:31:51 am »

*Like PP said, I have no objection to people stating that they are consuming pemmican or some other cooked cr*p due to not being able to access higher quality foods or because they're just then transitioning to raw, or because they don't feel their health is that much ruined by its consumption by comparison to other foods so that they eat it for travel purposes/social reasons or whatever, as long as the reason is mentioned. But it is absolutely unacceptable to actively promote pemmican on this forum, since this is not a cooked-palaeo forum and especially since others have had major issues with cooked animal fat in the past..Given the unnecessary trollish nature of past postings about pemmican(such as a recent, irrelevant post promoting pemmican on my own journal, I think I'll just delete any such nonsense in future, if this continues. It's simply childish and immature).

Tyler, I'm afraid it is just your reaction that is childish and immature. I would like to discuss quietly the pemmican issue and find out why this food has cured the ailments William suffered from and why he does fairly well with it. Because this is of high scientific interest and your dogmatic position is just ridiculous and highly sterile. If you don't mind.

I notice the following features:

-William tells us that the meat is dried at 95°F (35°C). No problem this is perfectly raw non denaturated protein. Moreover this "aging" of the meat during 4 days produces a lot of interesting probiotic fungi and bacteria.

-William tells us that he uses  beef fat rendered at 200°F (94°C). Beef fat is typically 97% saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids. Theses fatty acids are perfectly stable upon heating up to 150- 200°C. No problem with them. Only the 3% polyunsaturated fatty acids are less stable above about 100°C and so here generate only a very tiny quantity of degradation products.

-Enzymes are proteins and proteins are made inactive by denaturation in stomacal acidic environment anyway so their denaturation upon rendering is essentially irrelevant. Fat is necessarily digested by means of our own enzyme production even if raw.

-Preformed vitamin A, vitamin D and other fat soluble nutriments are fairly stable as compared to other vitamins but some degradation and destruction is expected around 94°C.

Obviously it is quite absurd and pure non-sense to compare in terms of toxicity pemmican prepared according to William's recipe  to grilled, broiled, boiled etc...cooked meat, as Tyler does, where the amount of heat generated toxins is tremendously higher (both protein and fat with usually much more PUFAs heated at or above 100°C). Nothing to do a priori re toxicity.

So I'm not so surprised from a scientific point of view that William does well with it and has cured his ailments.

 I've never eaten pemmican and enjoy my meat and fat as it is without any processing or heating. But I am not reluctant to consider this food as quite acceptable on travel because it's dry and keeps so well. I would however try to render the fat at even lower temperature (50°C might work even if drying is then a lengthier process).



          

  
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 04:07:37 am by alphagruis »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2010, 04:59:36 am »
This is inaccurate, of course. First off, the fact that the body produces its own enzymes is irrelevant as we all know full well that people on SAD diets commonly end up with digestive issues as they get older, routinely requiring enzyme supplements as they age. If their bodies always provided enough enzymes, they wouldn't require enzyme supplements.

Secondly, the claims re saturated fat are rather bogus. For example, as I pointed out on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, the foods highest in cooked saturated fats are often the foods highest in heat-created toxins(butter being a perfect example thereof, being very high in saturated fat):-

http://www.newcastleyoga.com.au/links/Food%20AGEs%20text.pdf

As regards toxicity, one can quibble about the levels of toxicity in  mcdonald's hamburger's, pemmican, grains or any other food, and not only are there varying degrees of toxicity in foods but also different individuals have different resistances to the various food. But the point is that they have nothing whatsoever to do with rawpaleoforum(to give an example, I am far less affected by some cooked foods than others(cooked plant foods have a negligible, immediate effect on me by comparison to cooked animal foods, but I don't go round promoting the former as a health food. I don't mind members discussing such things in a thread specifically connected to some anti-rawpalaeo theme, on occasion, if in the Hot Topics forum, but hijacking threads constantly on other forums , purely to promote an anti-RPD claim as William does routinely is totally unacceptable on any level. I mean, we've had trolls like metallica and superinfinity constantly promoting the consumption of cooked/processed  foods, or raw vegan/fruitarian diets with the usual nonsensical posts and William is no different from them in his approach.


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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2010, 05:21:59 am »
The fruit and veg. available were not eaten in the paleolithic, as you know.
We would all be interested if you would experiment by eating the same plant-matter that paleoman might have eaten.

I could just as well say the same nonsensical thing, that you can't claim to be palaeo unless you've eaten mammoths or aurochs, a staple in palaeo times. A meaningless statement as usual.


And, as for the fruit/veg issue in palaeo times,I've debunked the notion that plants weren't part of palaeolithic diets a dozen times already with scientific papers , as shown below:-

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/19/10972.full

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u386383180288602/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBC-4XX26J5-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1162367940&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d26091c15d4b5ecac5ac6b29afd36afb



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Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2010, 06:31:35 am »
There must be some who gave it an honest and properly careful try, and failed, but we have not heard such, and can't really know. What I see are the glowing reports of success in the pemmican thread in ZIOH, the polar explorers, the voyageurs, and traditionally all northern Canadians.
That's more than a few people.

I don't think there were very many people (perhaps 5ish) in the first place to switch over to only pemmican. I do remember though that Larry, from ZIOH, tried pemmican only for 6 weeks. He did alright and IIRC it did not work as well as his normal meat and has since ditched the pemmican.


Quote
"Raw" means it contains all the original enzymes and whatever else is required for complete digestion.
"Cooked" means poisoned, for me.
"Render" means to separate the poisons both present and potential from the fat, retaining only the pure essential fat/lipids/tallow. This tallow is unaffected by heat.

I do not believe that pemmican is superior to raw fat meat, having lived on raw Black Angus porterhouse steaks for a few days while travelling in the northern U.S.A.  and enjoyed it, but these are too expensive locally.

Pemmican is superior for a stored food, and for times when the right stuff is not available.

There clearly seems to be a substantial difference between rendering and cooking. It seems only Tyler has a problem with this.

I completely agree with Phil, that you should have given the board full disclosure about pemmican vs raw meat. Why did you withhold the very valuable information that pemmican is indeed not superior to raw beef?  Why then do you eat pemmican? Is cost really that big of an issue? It is your health. It seems you haven’t given raw grass-fed beef a fair try and that you had a mislead agenda with pemmican by covering up some of the story.

I also don’t see how you can conclude that evolution, Paleolithic eating of vegetation, big bang theory, etc.. don’t exist, even though there is a preponderance of evidence for all of these things and then say that paleo man ate pemmican on exactly no evidence whatsoever. You may actually be the sole person who believes paleo man ate pemmican. Your reasoning is that pemmican is simple to make is enough for you??? I don’t understand how you evaluate evidence.

I will say again though that pemmican actualy might be superior for those withallergies to rw meat s Dr.Harris has pointed out.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2010, 06:42:11 am »
I think any extreme positions (pemmican is the best possible food for human, pemmican is cooked cr*p, carbs are the evil, etc.) only generates perpetual conflicts that lead to nowhere. The truth is often between these extreme positions.
I agree. It's better to keep things calm and rational. Such extremely emotional arguments make this forum look like a bunch of disturbed fanatics, which is the sort of thing a few people have already described it as. In my experience, extreme positions are best applied to oneself. I don't have a problem with people claiming that pemmican or carbs are pure crap for them. It's when they try to apply their own personal experience to everyone else that I think they stray into magical thinking that's anti-science. The best one can do with one's personal experience is hypothesize that it might apply to others. It is not proof of how others will do.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2010, 06:54:27 am »
What do you guys mean by "cooking?" Rendering is a type of cooking, unless you don't consider boiling cooking. Soup is cooked, correct? Maybe if you said rendering is different than baking, or frying, or grilling, that might make more sense.

William

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2010, 09:11:29 am »
The result of cooking is a food containing toxins.
The result of rendering is tallow,containing no toxins.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2010, 09:26:16 am »
Let's assume that's true. That's the result, but what causes there to be a different result?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

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Re: Coconut oil and antinutrients
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2010, 09:28:45 am »
I may as well jump into the fray - at least the pemmican part.

There is no one that I know of that is doing well on a pemmican-only diet over the long term, especially if the pemmican is composed of just meat and fat.  Throughout history there have been many people and groups that have used pemmican as the majority of their diet for several months at a time, but none that I know of that don't add, or revert to fresh foods when available.   I also have had extensive communications with about a dozen people from various forums that thought pemmican would be the Holy Grail, but most developed problems as the months progressed when it was the only food eaten.  The ones that had the most success were the ones that added between 5% and 10% by weight of dried berries (strawberries, blueberries, cranberries, etc) to their mix.

Yes, I know about Delfuego, and in my past communications with him he seems to have been far more concerned with maintaining the image he has created on ZIOH than being fully forthcoming about what he is actually doing. Even on the ZIOH forum he's been asked repeatedly for specifics, but provides little in the way of detailed information.  Long ago I gave up trusting the self proclaimed gurus without verification.

People are free to argue over whether pemmican is a true paleo food or not.  I have no axe to grind either way.  I've found pemmican useful as a supplement to my normal diet, especially when traveling and as an emergency food.  This seems to be in line with how it has been used throughout history.  I've seen no evidence that pemmican has ever been used by the North American Natives that invented it, as the only food eaten.

Lex