Author Topic: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption  (Read 27149 times)

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Online TylerDurden

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The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« on: October 03, 2008, 01:08:24 am »
Dairy has only been consumed for the last 9,000 years or so, which is far too short a period in our evolution for us to fully adapt to it. As a direct result, many people experience severe health-problems with dairy:-

First of all, it's well-known that 75% of the world's population are lactose-intolerant to some extent, with at least 3% casein-intolerant, with malabsoprtion of dairy being a common occurrence:-

http://www.foodintol.com/dairy.asp

There have been one or two  international studies directly linking dairy-consumption to much higher rates of osteoporosis, with other studies showing no benefit  of dairy-consumption as regards healing of hip-fractures etc. - giving the lie to the notion that calcium-rich  dairy builds strong bones:-

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/2/301A

A useful site re the link between higher rates of osteoporosis and dairy-consumption can be found here:-

http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/4/ExcessiveCalcium.htm

Dairy-consumption  has also been linked to much higher rates of heart-disease:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9727089?dopt=Abstract

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/149/2/151

and prostate-cancer, among other types of cancer:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10383480?dopt=Abstract

http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/cancer2.htm

http://www.urotoday.com/browse_categories/male_infertility/high_dairy_product_intake_associated_with_an_increased_testicular_cancer_risk.html
Dairy-consumption has also been directly linked to  increased rates of dementia, depression and strokes  in the elderly, due to the excess calcium in dairy:-

http://news.sawf.org/Health/37084.aspx

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070501115230.htm

Dairy has also been linked to schizophrenia and autism:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15123503&ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://paleodiet.com/autism/


Dairy, along with grains, is also heavily implicated in the rise in the incidence of autoimmune  diseases such as multiple sclerosis and rheumatoid arthritis:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=1291895&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

http://paleodiet.com/ms/

http://paleodiet.com/ra/

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1505908

Then there's the issue of the extremely lopsided Calcium:Magnesium ratio of dairy(c.12:1). In Palaeolithic times, the caveman diet had a calcium:magnesium ratio was only c. 1:1 -  but our modern dairy-filled diet has on average a 4:1 Calcium:Magnesium ratio which is most unhealthy, as excessive calcium in the diet(above 1:1) ends up blocking the intake of magnesium into the body, thus leading to magnesium-deficiency:-

http://www.paleodiet.com/losspts.txt

Since magnesium is an essential component of the human body, a lack of magnesium leads onto various minor to major health-problems:-

http://www.ctds.info/5_13_magnesium.html

http://www.ctds.info/magnesium.html

There are also serious concerns about the dangerous effects of all the hormones in dairy:-

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html

There is particular concern about the link between dairy-consumption and a higher rate of male reproductive disorders, due to the large amounts of the female hormone oestrogen , present in cows' milk:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11601881

Dairy has also been linked to a higher rate of Parkinson's Disease:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17272289&ordinalpos=49&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Another factor to consider is the amount of harmful opioids present in dairy(and grains and processed foods). It's a well-known fact that such opioids are highly addictive, and it is no coincidence that food-manufacturers  routinely use them in processed foods:-

http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p18.htm

http://www.forgoodnesssake123.com/Glues.html

Lastly, it's also well-known that lactose a major nutritional component of  dairy, if consumed in appreciable amounts,  inhibits the absorption of copper into the human body, thus potentially causing problems re increased rates of  heart-disease in later life:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3357459

On an anecdotal level, it should be noted that  large numbers of raw-meat-diet-beginners tend to make the mistake of consuming large quantities of raw dairy at first, as it's an easier raw animal food to get used to than raw meat, say. This inevitably leads, over time,  to long-term problems such as magnesium-deficiency(indeed a number of  long-term heavy consumers of raw dairy (eg:- Primal Dieters) have openly admitted that they take artificial magnesium supplements in order to make up for the excessive calcium-rich dairy in their diets. And also  those allergic to dairy tend to get artificial, powerful cravings for raw dairy, and often lose their taste for healthier raw animal food such as raw meats/organ-meats. Even worse, some Raw-Animal-Foodists  choose to ignore the serious health-problems caused by their body's reaction to the harmful raw dairy and try to pretend they're merely experiencing an endless series of "detoxes" and that raw dairy is a supposedly excellent detoxing food. Nothing could be further from the truth.

*It should be noted that many of those Raw-Animal-Foodists who consume raw dairy often claim that eating raw dairy, as opposed to pasteurised dairy will automatically resolve any health-problems incurred from eating pasteurised dairy, whether due to allergies or whatever. They also tend to recommend all sorts of mystic preparations such as only eating raw dairy at room-temperature, mixing raw dairy with honey or only eating A2-protein dairy etc., but invariably none of these methods work to any genuine extent for those with allergies towards raw dairy. Plus, they often tend to claim that it's impossible to experience a(lactose-intolerance-related) allergy towards raw dairy(or sometimes just towards raw butter), despite the various accounts from people  who've experienced lactose-intolerance etc.  towards raw butter etc. Unfortunately, many of the harmful aspects of dairy, such as the opioids and the excessive amounts of calcium in dairy, are as prevalent in raw dairy as in pasteurised dairy, so this is not a convincing argument at all. In short, while it's generally the case that consuming raw dairy causes  fewer problems, overall, than consuming pasteurised dairy, side-effects and health-problems related to raw-dairy-consumption are  the most frequent problems faced by Raw-Animal-Foodists when they first  start going raw. Problems with veggie-juice and raw eggs are merely secondary in frequency to raw dairy, in that regard.* 


Oh, here is a scientific study showing the link between cataracts in old age and consumption of dairy, with galactose being a problem rather than lactose per se.



« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 07:05:25 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline Eva_R

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 05:32:39 pm »
Thank you for this information.

Offline raw-al

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2013, 04:05:35 am »
I just noticed this thread.

Just to be clear, what Tyler says is true in the strictest sense. Dairy can be anything from a chronic irritant for long time consumers, to a danger in the short term for some.

We should all be aware of this.

The reason very simply is that dairy is generally difficult to digest and it can be very difficult to digest for some people and the undigested dairy may find it's way into the body through the osmotic barrier in the intestines into the blood and so on.

However, this is true for every food, whether cooked, raw or whatever. If you eat foods that are inappropriate regardless of whether they are touted by the experts or your friends or the people on this site, you are on your own. Pay attention to what you eat. If it causes issues then consider giving it up for awhile to see if the issues go away. Two weeks or a month for foods that you eat regularly is a good test.

Some people for instance will find garlic as a life saver, and I am led to believe, there is plenty of science to back it up, but for some it is pure poison.

Bottom line is that advice to eat/not to eat any particular food must be taken lightly. Even foods that you may like, may be indeed what you need to eat, but to get in a habit of eating something even when you lose the taste for it, is asking for trouble.

Typically dairy will cause issues like upper respiratory tract infections (like colds) blocked sinuses, lethargy, back problems (which may be prostate issues in hiding) prostate issues and issues associated with fluid buildup or oedema. Then these promonitory symptoms may degrade into other issues.
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Offline svrn

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 11:59:57 pm »
which of these studies (if any) used raw rather than pasteurized dairy to reach their conclusions?

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Offline LePatron7

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2014, 02:10:01 am »
which of these studies (if any) used raw rather than pasteurized dairy to reach their conclusions?

Hey man! Welcome back. The answer is probably none.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2014, 02:29:19 am »
which of these studies (if any) used raw rather than pasteurized dairy to reach their conclusions?


This is irrelevant since many of the studies focus on the harm done by excess calcium or hormones, both of  which are present in raw dairy as well as pasteurised dairy.
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline LePatron7

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2014, 02:34:58 am »
This is irrelevant since many of the studies focus on the harm done by excess calcium or hormones, both of  which are present in raw dairy as well as pasteurised dairy.

In regards to the calcium, it's likely it was done on feed lot milk which is very low in Vitamin K2. Pastured raw milk is generally very high in Vitamin K2, which helps direct the calcium where it needs to go. Supposing there's sufficient Vitamin K1 being consumed along with the raw milk, it would prevent the calcification of soft tissues. Still doesn't address the imbalance of mag and cal though.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

Med free since 03/21/2014

CitrusHigh

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2014, 03:44:42 am »
9'000 years? Is that qualified somewhere?

When will folks get it into their skulls that modern dairy, even 100% Grass fed is NOT the same as old school, heirloom, wild-crafted dairy. The molecules matter, the genetics matter and for people like you who know better Ty, it is downright misleading for you to attempt to apply a bunch of bullshit studies to old school milk consumption. There are just too many variable for that to be a credible statement. The only substance that the bulk of your studies indict, is modern dairy, and probably mostly hormone and antibiotic laden, pasteurised and homogenized, which is serious weak sauce and kind of embarrassing....

But you are not personally biased based on your outlying past experiences right Ty? Bahahahahaha ;p
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 03:52:08 am by Thoth »

CitrusHigh

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2014, 03:56:52 am »
You think that with proper amounts of k2 your body can't adequately and healthfully resolve alleged issues of cal/mag?

Why am I the only one that recognizes the sheer majesty of our illustrious history of evolution? We are some of the baddest ass wet machines around, and our optimization systems are crazy adaptable GIVEN SUFFICIENT molecularly intact inputs, ie raw foods, especially raw animal foods, and clean, groundwater.

Offline LePatron7

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2014, 01:31:06 pm »
You think that with proper amounts of k2 your body can't adequately and healthfully resolve alleged issues of cal/mag?

Not necessarily. The body needs magnesium and calcium, both should be consumed in relatively even amounts. Milk is a relatively poor source of magnesium, and there aren't many animal foods that are very high in magnesium. A lot of RAF'ers choose to eat minimal amounts of plant foods.

One cup of milk has 276 mg of calcium - http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/69/2

To compare, shell fish which has often been touted as being a magnesium power house has 39.5 mg magnesium per 6 medium shell fish - http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4189/2

Most animal foods aren't very high in magnesium. But assuming you were to consume equal amounts of calcium to magnesium from just those two foods, you'd need about 41 medium shell fish for every 1 cup of milk to get a 1:1 ratio (the ratio that many think we evolved consuming). That sounds like a lot of shell fish.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

Med free since 03/21/2014

Offline Iguana

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2014, 03:53:57 pm »
9'000 years? Is that qualified somewhere?

Regular milk consumption is Neolithic. You need domestic animals and pottery to collect significant amounts of milk.

Quote
When will folks get it into their skulls that modern dairy, even 100% Grass fed is NOT the same as old school, heirloom, wild-crafted dairy.

Yeah… milk from zebras, gazelle, elephants, wild boars, tigers or badgers. Tell us when you get some.  ;)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline raw-al

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 04:03:00 pm »
Yeah… milk from zebras, gazelle, elephants, wild boars, tigers or badgers. Tell us when you get some.  ;)
First you get fast...
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Online TylerDurden

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2014, 01:42:11 am »
Even "pristine" dairy from wild sources will have problems inherent for humans since they too contain hormones  and excess calcium etc. which can harm humans. Indeed, a lot of  milk from wild animals such as wolves  contains far too much casein, for example,  so is fatal for humans to drink long-term. Simply put, all mothers' milk is designed to help only the members of one particular species to get properly fed until weaning.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 07:06:59 am by TylerDurden »
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline LePatron7

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2014, 03:34:28 am »
Simply out, all mothers' milk is designed to help only the members of one particular species to get properly fed until weaning.

Omg.. Another typo - "simply out." lol
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

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Offline raw-al

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2014, 05:24:19 am »
ROFLMAO....... oops sorry, couldn't resist..... I'll go to HE double hockey stick for that.
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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2014, 07:12:36 am »
Well, at least I correct most of my typos. This is one rare exception which I missed.
Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Offline raw-al

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2014, 08:18:04 am »
Just having a bit of fun. I usually catch mine but occasionally I am too  quick off the mark.

It is a bit frustrating if someone who should know better misses them. Totally blows me away that some posters from a foreign language background don't make more. Very impressed.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 08:20:29 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline van

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2014, 09:58:42 am »
Just having a bit of fun. I usually catch mine but occasionally I am to quick off the mark.

It is a bit frustrating if someone who should know better misses them. Totally blows me away that some posters from a foreign language background don't make more. Very impressed.

 whoops, you missed one, can you find it?

Offline raw-al

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2014, 10:00:50 am »
Yeah......... Scratch one up for ya. LOL
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Offline raw-al

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2014, 10:01:22 am »
Guess I was two qwik uff the marc
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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2014, 10:35:56 am »
I should post all those studies to the Primal FB page, but alas, all that the AV faithful will do, is point out that they were not Raw milk studies.

A lot of Primal dieters hate it when someone points out that you do not need Raw milk as part of a healing diet, and most wont even consider that many within their own group are having severe dairy intolerance issues, which are written off as detox reactions.

There is just no convincing some people.

From a Paleolithic perspective it should be obvious that milk was designed to feed an offspring only until weaning age. The mineral balance, vitamin levels and hormones contained in milk were not designed for adult animals of other species to consume. Though there has been some level of adaption, which allows for some people to tolerate Raw milk into adulthood, it still is a suspect food for anyone who is consuming it and still has issues.

What myself and the many other Dairy Bashers are saying is broad and I know wont apply to everyone, but the main point I would like to make regarding dairy, is.... That if you consume it and suffer no ill effects whatsoever, and consider yourself to be in perfect health, then you have my blessing... But if you insist that everyone else in the human race is capable of doing the same, then you are mistaken. My own personal experience, the experience of people within my own community along with many others on the forum, are all testaments to the negative effects of drinking Raw Dairy.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 10:43:57 am by sabertooth »
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CitrusHigh

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2014, 08:39:10 pm »
Daboss, you really think it's difficult to get mg from animal foods? Have you really thought that out?

Iguana can you think of another sense 'wildcrafted' might be used?

Saber, of course dairy is not for you if your body is demonstrating it cannot tolerate it..

Folks, none of your comments have explained how a bunch of studies on molecularly warped dairy can apply to molecularly intact dairy...please try again...that is the only point im asserting here, I KNOW dairy, even raw, heritage, wildcrafted is not for everybody, and maybe not even for most, but we still have to make accurate claims in we are going to want people to take us seriously, even though they are sheep-tools..

Offline LePatron7

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2014, 09:07:07 pm »
Daboss, you really think it's difficult to get mg from animal foods? Have you really thought that out?

Yes, I can't find legitimate high potency sources of magnesium from animal foods like I can for Vitamin A (liver), CoQ10 (heart), etc. Even the Weston Price Foundation doesn't make mention of any high potency animal foods - http://www.westonaprice.org/vitamins-and-minerals/magnificent-magnesium
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

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Online TylerDurden

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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2014, 10:14:02 pm »


Iguana can you think of another sense 'wildcrafted' might be used?
  I suppose you are using the old, hoary argument used by pro-raw dairy advocates as a last resort, that if only those allergic to raw dairy were to drink the finest raw dairy from domesticated animals fed only on wild grasses/herbs  in the most pristine Apline meadows , they would supposedly all benefit and no longer suffer from drinking raw dairy. This b*llsh*t has been peddled for years and is absolute nonsense, given anecdotal reports.

Quote
Folks, none of your comments have explained how a bunch of studies on molecularly warped dairy can apply to molecularly intact dairy...please try again...that is the only point im asserting here, I KNOW dairy, even raw, heritage, wildcrafted is not for everybody, and maybe not even for most, but we still have to make accurate claims in we are going to want people to take us seriously, even though they are sheep-tools..
Again, you are as usual missing the point. Pasteurisation is a short, quick process and does not change  absolutely all the ingredients in dairy. It kills the enzymes and bacteria, granted.Pasteurisation also likely alters the composition of fats. But calcium in pasteurised dairy is just like calcium in raw dairy and an excess of calcium has been shown by numerous scientific studies to be harmful. if you doubt that please provide some scientific evidence showing that calcium in dairy becomes something else (trans-calcium?!!!!) after being pasteurised. Similiarly, hormones in raw dairy are a problem even when raw, as there are  oestrogens in it. Come to think of it, since pasteurisation likely harms the composition of hormones, raw is likely worse.

Another good argument against raw dairy is the ease in which it transmits diseases. That is why every so often one hears of people getting infected after consuming the stuff.
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Re: The Dangers of (Raw and Pasteurised) Dairy Consumption
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2014, 12:41:01 am »


Saber, of course dairy is not for you if your body is demonstrating it cannot tolerate it..

Folks, none of your comments have explained how a bunch of studies on molecularly warped dairy can apply to molecularly intact dairy...please try again...that is the only point im asserting here, I KNOW dairy, even raw, heritage, wildcrafted is not for everybody, and maybe not even for most, but we still have to make accurate claims in we are going to want people to take us seriously, even though they are sheep-tools..

Personal experience, trumps any kind of raw milk study you may be imagining. The fact is that personal experiences are indeed accurate claims, that are worthy of consideration.  Many of us have used Raw dairy from the most pristine of sources, and have not been able to tolerate it. There is evidence that suggest that the high calcium and hormones levels in raw dairy, meant to build bones, and increase overall growth in young animals, is detrimental to mature animals of other species.

So As an anti dairy advocate, I place the burden of proof on those who disagree. If the issues cannot be addressed  more fully then there can be no agreements between the two sides! Though, I do believe that this discourse could be useful to others who may be considering for themselves if Raw Dairy is for them personally.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 08:05:22 am by sabertooth »
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