Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Josh on August 20, 2009, 07:33:09 pm
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Hi there.
I have reported before that taking mineral supplements is helping with the symptoms I get while adapting to Paleo. I have just found a source of glandular supplements that seems ok, so might try and do it by that means rather than other sources.
I think my problem is zinc copper balance.
Anyone got any thought about which organs and glands could help? And possibly how much to take?
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Raw oysters are, IMO, the best way to get zinc. And I think they're rich in other minerals as well, likely even copper.
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Thanks, I'll try that. Still interested in answers though as I can only get oysters once a week max realistically.
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I for years now grind cow and bison rib bones into powder. I eat about one rib bone a week in the form of powder. If interested, I could tell you how 'I' do it.
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I wrote about oysters as being the best zinc supplement ever at http://www.eczemacure.info/blog/2009/02/13/oyster-cure-the-best-zinc-supplement-in-the-world/
Plus if your goal is to produce lots and lots of sperm... oh man, in my non-paleo days my sperm increased 300% in one month from 100m/ml to 300m/ml with just a lunch full of raw oysters 2 to 3 times per week.
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Surprisingly, while I needed them to control my acne while still eating some carbs, I found that even cheap zinc supplements did the trick. Raw oysters do contain massive amounts of zinc and copper.
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I had 5 oysters today...delicious. See how I get on. Normal supps work ok it's the origin and other stuff in them that's not amazing. Still they're only little amounts.
I for years now grind cow and bison rib bones into powder. I eat about one rib bone a week in the form of powder. If interested, I could tell you how 'I' do it.
what nutrients are in this bone?
Cheers, josh
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I wish I could tell you. Have looked on the net to no avail. But I do know that there is plenty of calcium, and the red portion in the rib bone is full of cartalidge. I have also read that the Magnesium stores are deeper in the bone. Bone is also protein. The part I like about bone is that the trace minerals we need to make or keep healthy bones, like boron, etc, is in bone. If anyone ever finds a good nutritional breakdown of various bones, I would love to see it.
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If interested, I could tell you how 'I' do it.
I'm interested. Seems like a waste to throw them all away if we can use them for something. :)
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What raw oysters do people buy and where?
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I for years now grind cow and bison rib bones into powder. I eat about one rib bone a week in the form of powder. If interested, I could tell you how 'I' do it.
I would also be interested. Tell us more.
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What raw oysters do people buy and where?
Aren't you supposed to eat oysters during certain months? I just buy whatever ones are available as it's a seasonal thing.
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Available where? Are they wild or farmed?
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I try and always get wild seafood, but oysters I believe it might not matter because of the nature of them. You don't need to "feed" them as you would a fish, they just filter the water.
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Oysters are available in Canada only in the months with an R in them (in English).
They are once again in the store, and in my 'frig.
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Re bones thanks, but I'm not sure about this. Dunno about ingesting quantities of something that doesn't seem like a food.
Probably wouldn't be harmful in small amounts but unless we know there's something unique in it I wouldn't.
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I try and always get wild seafood, but oysters I believe it might not matter because of the nature of them. You don't need to "feed" them as you would a fish, they just filter the water.
The farmed oysters I once or twice have gotten from supermarkets( early on in the diet) have always been far smaller(and less tasty) than the wildcaught oysters I buy nowadays. It may have something to do with polluted/unpolluted waters or whatever.
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The farmed oysters I once or twice have gotten from supermarkets( early on in the diet) have always been far smalle(and less tasty) than the wildcaught oysters I buy nowadays. It may have something to do with polluted/unpolluted waters or whatever.
That is my belief, but I'd be willing to hear counterarguments. I've had tasteless oysters and good oysters, but I've not ever asked whether they were wild, at restaurants where I was eating them.
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Wild oysters are found on beaches at low tide (for me, Vancouver island) while farmed grow on chains hanging from floats in Johnson Strait, which is between that island and the American mainland.
Presumably, the farmed are in cleaner water, as there is no runoff of waste from the land.
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OK, thanks for all the info. It's been a long time since I tried oysters. I put them on my shopping list.
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PALEOPHIL, a word of warning on the oysters. Please search the archives for my bad experiences with them about 6 - 8 months ago. I was buying the best wild oysters available from the clean waters of Falmouth Bay in SW England (where motorised boats are banned!). I was feeding them to myself and my pregnant partner as a zinc supplement for my growing son.
I think they're a wonderful food and used to thoroughly enjoy the taste and the clearly noticeable benefits of the megadoses of zinc!! But, we obviously got one bad batch and were both horrendously sick. It took me weeks to get over and my partner was projectile vomiting for days and turned a terrible grey colour. I thought I'd killed her!!!! People on here at the time mentioned a Red Tide fungus of some sort (which is why they're only available in months with an R in, I think).
I'm not sure what caused it but certainly neither of us are able to be in the same room as an oyster since!! :) My advice - be cautious and very certain of your sources.
VAN, I would be extremely interested in more info about grinding and eating powdered bone as a supplement. I'm hoping the Ca/Mg etc would help with my teeth/receding gums problem!
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VAN, I would be extremely interested in more info about grinding and eating powdered bone as a supplement. I'm hoping the Ca/Mg etc would help with my teeth/receding gums problem!
There is a recent thread at:
http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?A2=ind0909&L=paleofood&T=0&F=&S=&P=57420
which indicates that adequate fat intake works better than supplements of Ca/Mg.
"Here is the comment about Mary Enig:
"You can't turn on the television without being told you need calcium for
your bones, but do you recall ever hearing that saturated fat is required
for calcium to be effectively incorporated into bone? According to one of
the foremost research experts in dietary fats and human health, Mary Enig,
Ph.D., there's a case to be made for having as much as 50 percent of the
fats in your diet as saturated fats for this reason." From:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/09/06/saturated-fat/
William
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Thanks for the link William. That's a very interesting post from Ron. I have been VLC for some time now and believe I am eating sufficient fats. Plenty of grass-fed suet and marrow or butter on the occasion that these are unavailable.
Ron's comments in the linked thread regarding celiac and fat absorption were a little concerning though. I think I'll look into this aspect a little more. I have long suffered with gluten intolerance but have never been tested for celiac. Other members of my family also have similar problems so it wouldn't surprise me if this was an issue.
The Ca/Mg intake on my current diet is still a concern though. My hopes that it's sufficient rely heavily on Lex's experiences (and the results of his recent bone scan) but I'm not going to be confident until I see a reversal of my receding gum problems.
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If you're not eating gluten, then a blood test for the antigens related to celiac disease will likely produce a negative or indeterminate result. Even if you got a positive result, as an RPDer you're already avoiding gluten, so what would be the point?
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PALEOPHIL, a word of warning on the oysters. But, we obviously got one bad batch and were both horrendously sick. It took me weeks to get over and my partner was projectile vomiting for days and turned a terrible grey colour. I thought I'd killed her!!!!
I once was sick for a month after some bad oysters. The only way I could sleep, work at a desk, etc. was to have a heating pad on my stomach constantly, to control the terrible cramping. I had diarrhea 6-8 times a day, minimum. I was taking lots of Imodium, but even so, there was terrible diarrhea. I haven't eaten them more than once or twice since then.
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Good heavens. Maybe it's best to lightly cook oysters then? I couldn't afford to be sick for a month.
The health food market only had wild clams and farmed mussels anyway, no oysters. I got some clams.
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Liver has a huge amount of copper. It has fair amounts of zinc, phosphorous, and iron as well. Not nearly as much zinc as oysters, but still decent.
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Good heavens. Maybe it's best to lightly cook oysters then? I couldn't afford to be sick for a month.
I didn't know about activated charcoal then. Still, that's not an experience I care to repeat, even if I can stop the cramping/diarrhea with activated charcoal or healing clays. :)
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as regards to the bones not being a food. Think about the animals that 'we' would have eaten when there weren't New York and rib eyes on every corner. Smaller animals like birds of all kinds, rabbits, mice, insects. All of which would have been eaten in their entirety. The inuit were even reported to chew on the ends of rib bones and eat fish bones. Every other carnivore eats some to a lot of the bones of it's prey. Tigers and lions don't just kill zebras, they also eat smaller prey which they then consume their bones with the meat. Just watch a house cat eat a bird or mouse. We tend to be the only carnivore or omnivore that doesn't for some reason eat bones 'today'. When fresh rib bones are ground finely, the taste is very pleasing, almost something I look forward to. Simply my take and experience here.
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cherimoya, very similar oyster experiences to my own. I used some herbal parasite tinctures which seemed to be the only thing that helped me get over it but, likewise, it took a good month or more before I was feeling ok again. Charcoal may have also been useful but I don't fancy the idea of eating oysters again to test it!! :)
paleophil, yes you're right that I probably wouldn't bother with a celiac test as I'm avoiding gluten anyway. But, from reading that post on another forum linked by William I got the impression that celiac also involved some kind of fat absorption problem related to a missing messenger. I need to read it again and look into this matter in more detail. I do feel like I'm struggling with my digestion since upping my fat intake and have even been considering a liver cleanse using olive oil/pink grapefruit juice which I found incredibly helpful, back in my vegetarian days, for removing gallstones from the liver and gallbladder.
van, I'm very keen to try this. What do you use to grind the bones?! I can't imagine my food processor being too happy were I to drop a couple of stock or marrow bones in there!! :) Any tips much appreciated!
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Just wanted to point out that I get my raw oysters from far out to sea near Norfolk, and have never ever had an issue with them.
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Be happy to Michael. Go on line and look for ferrier files, the ones they use to file down horse hoofs. Get the best you can find, with a good handle. You want to get ahold of rib bones. Ask for them as long as they can provide them; like a foot long. Take a sharp knife and scrape away any of the remaining meat etc. leaving a clean bone. Store in fridge or freezer. Eventually the reddish cartalidge middle will start to smell a little fishy if left for longer than a couple of months in the fridge, hence using the freezer to store long term. Now to file, hold straight down into large wooden cutting board and you'll stroke up with the bone against the file. The material will 'clog' the ribbed file surface, ( the other side of the file is usually sharp bumps, the ribbed section works best) so get a wire brush used for getting rid of rust and run across the file in the direction of the ribs. Do this right over the cutting board. Then get a good 3 inch wide paint scraper and gather up the bone dust and scoop into a spoon and eat. Sorry about the non metric references. I eat it when I start to get hungry before my first meal. It then fills/takes off the hunger edge for me temporarily and then in maybe a half an hour, I get hungry again, and that is when I eat my meat then fat. I think we need all the acid in our stomachs to digest it, and believe that even though bone has a lot of protein itself, the concentration of mineral leaves your stomach more alkaline in the end, hence not mixing it with meat, so that I don't alkalize the stomach with the bone. Obviously experiment on your own. I eat about one or two ribs per week, and feel good about knowing that I am getting all the elements my body needs to build bones. Bones have such an array of nutrients that go to make them up, it seems silly to miss out on that offering. Yes the blood has all essential elements and it does pass through meat/muscle/tissue, but like organs, each part of the body pulls from the blood what it needs. Feel free if you want further clarification on any of this. Also I keep the file in the fridge so when I file the bone, it and the grinder are cold and that helps to prevent any heat build up. I do this a couple of times a day, and like to eat about four tablespoons a day. Van
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Thank you van! I really appreciate your efforts in typing out that lengthy description! I am intrigued to try this and will start looking for a farriers rasp/file. I would never have thought of using such a method!
How long have you been 'supplementing' with your powdered bone? Have you noticed any changes since you introduced it? I'm certainly keen to see if it helps with my receding gums.
I, too, have now tried searching the 'net for more information on the mineral contents of bone but am dizzy with information overload! These seemingly simple bones are one complex mother of a structure!! Even the notorious Wiki has lots of interesting information on 'Bone' but I've drawn little further knowledge from my search regarding constitution. Calcium and Phosphorous seem to be all that gets mentioned. I think this is a subject worthy of much more reading and understanding!
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Ron's comments in the linked thread regarding celiac and fat absorption were a little concerning though. I think I'll look into this aspect a little more. I have long suffered with gluten intolerance but have never been tested for celiac.
I am also gluten intolerant and I had trouble digesting fats at first (I used to eat mostly very lean meats), but my fat digestion seems to be improving rapidly. I still have trouble with some fats, like beef intramuscular fat and most cooked pork sausage (I only eat cooked sausage on rare occasions now when I need a road food and don't have any low-heated jerky or pemmican).