Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: zeno on March 20, 2012, 11:50:53 am
-
I did the Milk Diet for about a month or so and felt better than I ever did on a diet based primarily in raw animal foods and not until now have I determined that it is because a diet of mostly raw meat has led to some terrible form of starvation.
In a guest post on The Nourished Life (http://www.livingthenourishedlife.com/2010/03/guest-post-matt-stone-on-milk-diet.html) Matt Stone discusses the Milk Diet and why it works--especially if you are starving yourself. There is so much valuable information in this post about the root cause of eating disorders, dieting, starvation and obesity.
In the article Stone discusses leptin and how problems with leptin in the body can lead to all sorts of troubles and how the Milk Diet alleviates many of these issues because milk is "nutritionally super-abundant" and the diet promotes rest and relaxation and also consumption beyond one's appetite in order to heal by exercising the digestive system through exercise.
I highly recommend that you read about the Milk Diet (http://www.milk-diet.com/) and the Miracle of Milk (available on the previous website) or Milk Diet as a Remedy for Chronic Disease (Porter).
This is a warning to those who are experiencing difficulty with this lifestyle and also for the inexperienced: Don't starve yourself because others demonize dairy, grains, or tubers! You may not be ready to thrive on a diet that consists of predominantly meat. Listen to your body. Even though it may seem crazy that you are craving that cheese or ice cream, it probably is occurring for a good reason.
-
I bet TylerDurden has some thoughts on this. ROFL
-
As part of my 10 year old boy's healing process, I put him on a raw milk diet for some 3 weeks. (this was just a few months ago)
I was able to achieve repair of his injured colon and got firm solid brown stools. (from blackish from a seemingly damaged colon)
We used a single dairy cow, just that 1 cow in the mountains and organically fed.
We ended the raw milk diet when he suddenly became constipated because of the milk.
We went back to rawish paleo diet.
-
yeah I would hold off on this. And by this I mean, promoting things you read that make sense to you that you havn't applied 100% for some stretch of time. Afterall, from what i gather, isn't this in some sense his critique of many paleo-type blogs?
-
Matt Stone is the author of that truly insane "high-everything diet", so has no credibility. Stuffing oneself with vast amounts of nutrients merely overloads the body over time. One thing many people have noticed is that over-eating forces the body to concentrate its resources on digestion rather than diverting those resources towards healing.
As regards the Milk Diet, I gather that a lot of people get problems on it if they consume only raw dairy for a long time. I doubt that eating more than 50% raw dairy products in one's diet is ultimately healthy either, long-term, even for those who do well on raw dairy.
-
yeah I would hold off on this. And by this I mean, promoting things you read that make sense to you that you havn't applied 100% for some stretch of time.
I do not mean to promote this diet as a permanent dietary choice. As GS illustrates, there is a time and place to use tools such as dairy. I merely would like to promote the use of dairy for its curative effects that I enjoyed. Moreover, the point I wanted to illustrate is not necessarily that the Milk Diet is right whereas a Raw Paleo Diet is wrong, but rather, that some people could be unprepared for a diet primarily consisting of animal foods which will result in starvation due to restricted carbohydrate intake.
Perhaps a Raw Paleo Diet is an ideal diet as KD and Sabertooth both have demonstrated with their success but some people require deep healing to get to that point in their life. I'm not sure. All I know is that I'm dead fucking hungry for carbohydrates and can't stand it. How I can find a way to incorporate more carbohydrates into my diet is my task at hand. I wish to express that this task is difficult when people broadly criticize the use of raw dairy because of their experience when some people may be at the specific point in their development to incorporate raw dairy. Are we not on all on a journey? Can we not say the same for our health and nutrition? Our paths are unique and our points along this path are too. In this manner I wish to promote raw dairy for those who do not know of it's value and will never know because it is dogmatically rejected.
-
One thing many people have noticed is that over-eating forces the body to concentrate its resources on digestion rather than diverting those resources towards healing.
True, but when the developed world is experiencing an obesity epidemic due to starvation I would argue that this is better than some of the other tactics that have been promoted here, such as starving the body of carbohydrates.
I personally was a wreck when I didn't feed my body with carbohydrates.
I doubt that eating more than 50% raw dairy products in one's diet is ultimately healthy either, long-term, even for those who do well on raw dairy.
Tell that to Mongolian tribes who rely on yaks for their milk. From what I understand milk is a staple of their diet that consists of 50% of their daily nutrition. Perhaps this isn't ideal for them, but this is how they've adapted to their present situation.
-
Some people do great on raw milk. They might be in minority but it just works for them. Raw milk works great for Yuri.
-
Is that what Yuri has been experimenting with since his last update in the past?
-
Theres just plain innacuries or speculations with what you are saying tho, or, are even things I might agree with but are not exactly facts like you suggest.
Like the obsesity is due to malnutrition thing.
+ for some, the raw paleo diet is not mostly animal foods or low carb.
I mean, define leptin..really...
Yeah and then there is me..always presenting the purist 100% paleo/raw/LC aproach....*facepalm*
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/not-all-dieticians-are-as-anti-paleo-as-i-previously-believed/msg62138/#msg62138 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/not-all-dieticians-are-as-anti-paleo-as-i-previously-believed/msg62138/#msg62138)
I wonder what everyone in that thread is now up to...
---
I don't think you are wrong with your choices (I don't know), I just think you should experitment more and/or flesh out your argument, as obviously your post is antagonistic, not backed up with much other than someone elses' opinions, and not totally fair to what people actually recommend.
-
Theres just plain innacuries or speculations with what you are saying tho, or, are even things I might agree with but are not exactly facts like you suggest.
True. I'm not implying anything that I've said is fact, though. My experience with starvation is just my own and I merely wish to discuss this as a possibility for others that might experiencing difficulty with this lifestyle.
I think my main qualm is that I foolishly perceived myself prepared to starve myself of carbohydrates and try to survive on mostly animal foods (my first mistake, given my state) and then do so without a consistent variety (my second mistake [this was mainly due to access, though, and not choice])
I don't think you are wrong with your choices (I don't know), I just think you should experitment more and/or flesh out your argument, as obviously your post is antagonistic, not backed up with much other than someone elses' opinions, and not totally fair to what people actually recommend.
My post is antagonistic. Perhaps everyone understands the value of variety and carbohydrates, but I didn't and this was a painful lesson to learn. I'd rather others be spared of my mistake. (Of course this was of my own accord, but) I allowed myself to become fearful of consuming certain foods even though I experienced explicit signs of depletion and weakness, very similar to my experience as a vegetarian. The only difference between vegetarianism and my present way of eating is that rather than depleting myself of animal foods I've began to starve myself of carbohydrates. Fundamentally the same mistake just different trappings. I thought I might be able to just eat whole animals and be just fine, but I need more and now I have to figure out what that is.
Also, I wouldn't say that my post is backed up with someone else's opinion. My intention was to use Stone's article as a source to defend the use of milk and the Milk Diet.
Lastly, I don't think I'm making much of an argument so much as I'm trying to raise awareness--as the title of this thread suggests.
-
The Mongolian diet involves a lot of meat as well, and, given modern foods etc., I seriously doubt that they consume 50%+ of their diet in the form of dairy. And in the extreme unlikelihood that they do, I doubt they are healthy.
-
As for me, I'm not sure how to achieve a better balance but I believe this will entail a regular portion of dairy daily. One of my major problems is access, but I'm trying not to attribute my difficulties to an externality.
-
If I were to make any sort of argument in defense of milk, it is that milk is a whole food. We can't deny that as mammals milk is the only source of nutrition during the beginning of our lives. Granted the milk of cows and goats is not identical to human beast milk but it is of similar value nutritionally.
-
Well done Zeno, fortune favours the brave!
-
Is that what Yuri has been experimenting with since his last update in the past?
That's his staple right now.
-
Hi.
I haven't posted here before but have followed the conversation about dairy with much interest over several months. After much experimenting myself I know I do better with some dairy and carbohydrate in my diet. In his book "Optimal Nutrition" Jan Kwasniewski makes the point that it is best to try to consume about 0.8 grams of carbohydrates per kg of body weight per day. He states, "Some tissues absolutely need carbohydrates, so they must be supplied. If a body doesn't receive them in food it has to produce them itself, most often from protein. It is, however, an energy-intensive process and unnecessary" and "A shortage of carbohydrates in the diet sometimesresults in urges to eat something sweet. The same cause sometimes leads to leg cramps, especially at night." (This was my experience). Schultz & Allan in the book "Life Without Bread" also caution against total removal of carbohydrates from the diet.
Based on what I read in this forum I tried eradicating dairy from my diet for a while. I found I did poorly and overate meat. I even found that I did not do well just eating butter and no other dairy. I tend to feel that I at least need some lactose in my diet, whilst acknowledging that each person must find what suits him/her.
My concern is that this forum should be about seeking and obtaining optimal health, not pushing and adhering strictly to idealogical viewpoints.
John L
-
Now you've gone ahead and left a giant window for people to say "hell if he had just eaten variety and more carbohydrates he wouldn't have any problems". I really hope this isn't the message you want to present, seeing since it hasn't solved any of your issues yet. Carbs may be the answer, but this is totally false within this context as 'the' problem. You do seem, at one point, to touch on your actual problem, which many high and low carb dieters do in fact share. The issue is being a zealot, and the proof of it lingering is you are willing to post about 8 differnt things you just read as solutions to yours and others health problems. Others maybe just claim the optimal human diet, even in the face of other information or results, and don't dip to as many dietary extremes. Or maybe some, because their diet actually is flush with fueling all their needs, and isn't creating other issues, they actually do really well.
If you want me to point you to the next few websites you'll probably be following after that one, let me know. Like in 6 months of eating pancakes, maybe you will be like "Theres this other guy who seems healthy says you only have to work 4 hours a week and the problem is how fast carbs are, and if you eat "slow carbs" then I won't have x,y,and z problems I have developed since I've been doing this high carb mod fat low protein omni diet, after I fixed those other issues when I stopped eating like a stupid caveman." Then you are back full circle eating beans, rice and tofu.
So yeah, maybe the problem, like many people, is just doing a diet based on a bunch of theories, then making a bunch of claims about how other shit doesn't work, and prior to the new things actually yieliding any real benefits, or being aware of any possible problems this new perfect solution might have.
or, like I said, maybe you could try things out, read a bunch of books, develop your theories over time, and then throw some hints around from time to time...
-
Then you are back full circle eating beans, rice and tofu.
Ha-ha-ha! Too good. ;D
So yeah, maybe the problem, like many people, is just doing a diet based on a bunch of theories, then making a bunch of claims about how other shit doesn't work, and prior to the new things actually yieliding any real benefits, or being aware of any possible problems this new perfect solution might have.
or, like I said, maybe you could try things out, read a bunch of books, develop your theories over time, and then throw some hints around from time to time...
Damn you and your wisdom! ;)
"A shortage of carbohydrates in the diet sometimesresults in urges to eat something sweet. The same cause sometimes leads to leg cramps, especially at night." (This was my experience). Schultz & Allan in the book "Life Without Bread" also caution against total removal of carbohydrates from the diet.
Strange--not after I ate an entire eight ounce jar of jam did I feel satisfied for lunch. And last night I awoke in the middle of the night and drank nearly a quart of pomegranate juice before I felt sated and could fall asleep once again.
-
The Mongolian diet involves a lot of meat as well, and, given modern foods etc., I seriously doubt that they consume 50%+ of their diet in the form of dairy. And in the extreme unlikelihood that they do, I doubt they are healthy.
I just read a study about them recently saying that they only drink milk for like 3 months out of the year. The rest of the time they don't and the yaks are pregnant. The article was about hormones in milk due to the milking of pregnant cows, especially in late term. But one of the points made is that these people are healthier (supposedly) because they don't consume as much milk and don't drink pregnancy milk. For whatever that's worth.
-
Now you've gone ahead and left a giant window for people to say "hell if he had just eaten variety and more carbohydrates he wouldn't have any problems". I really hope this isn't the message you want to present, seeing since it hasn't solved any of your issues yet. Carbs may be the answer, but this is totally false within this context as 'the' problem.
True, but where does one fight a good source of carbohydrates that are raw and appetizing according to this way of eating? Trying to eat locally restricts most sources for carbohydrates. Milk is one of the few viable options regardless of location (to some extent).
The issue is being a zealot, and the proof of it lingering is you are willing to post about 8 different things you just read as solutions to yours and others health problems.
Great! Now I just need to find the diet that can fix fanaticism! ;D
Anyway, I think I'm just going to resolve like Matt Stone to eat whatever the hell I want for a while. I haven't been able to go near a piece of red meat for the past two days. I'm hoping eventually I'll be able to break this and learn from this experience.
-
The biggest common diet faux-pas is probably to dismiss the idea that we need not only easy abundant energy/fuel but likely animal proteins and saturated fats and various vitamins and minerals and such. Some that are actually more rare in our current natural world to swear off too many foods. Acknowledging that even mediocre quality usually works to some degree. But people often just don't even get those things because they arn't in the form of 'vegan', 'paleo' 'LC' etc... Or yeah when people want to totally make up constructs of how we are supposed to eat. This splinters into tons of other debates. Processed vs raw, consequences of this or that, many of which have points on either end but are ignored on both sides due to zealotry.
But these things have complex variables, which is why you have people and gurus doing a variety of things and none of them being consistent ideal templates for all, or really very few beating out the Twinkie guy or McDonalds guy in leaps and bounds. Then some people say they have no template and eat all natural but having any understanding of physiology and eating, or understanding that these things always have their own blatantly destructive rules and dogmas, doesn't bode well for that either IMO.
I think alot of this just ties in with the other thread. Eating a nutrient rich diet + abundant energy sources can beat out an uplatable, nutrient sparse diet that avoids both nutrients and constant energy all under the umbrella of quality, or 'natural-ness' or whatever. Having a stable workable diet for basic living or healing is likely a pre-requite before making sure your diet avoids bad stuff. Add to that most people feel fantastic in the early stages of every diet change and then have the tendency to stick to things due to the same dogmas even through obvious problems. But other than that, maybe raw or paleo doesn't have these problems that the critics themselves over-zealously claim. Or, perhaps some people do need to remove 'bad stuff' before making any progress . Its hard to making sweeping statements about which is most important. Thats totally another splinter argument.
-
True, but where does one fight a good source of carbohydrates that are raw and appetizing according to this way of eating? Trying to eat locally restricts most sources for carbohydrates. Milk is one of the few viable options regardless of location (to some extent).
I once had raw starch cravings. I found it in Singkamas / Mexican turnip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachyrhizus_erosus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachyrhizus_erosus)
and Yacon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yac%C3%B3n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yac%C3%B3n)
----
I for one congratulate you on your success in raw milk.
My son was also successful in his short stint on raw milk to heal an internal injury.
I was not successful with raw milk as I just keep farting. Even in my latest experiment with it.
--------
People forget that this is the PRIMAL diet section where Raw Milk is a part of the diet.
-
so you mean you mean you had a starch craving, and you chose to research (like on the the internet) and select a starch that was both raw and paleo, instead of eating a bunch of cooked plantains or something, which any wild human (or likely wild animal) would pounce at, and probably use yacon as some kind of topical ointment.
same kind of stuff as above
at least the PD in all its extreme rawness, has somewhat less pretentiousness when satisfying ones instincts. Like that lady who wanted ice cream, AV had make her own ice cream and eat as much as she wanted. The ingredients were something like........drumroll........eggs, honey..and milk, maybe with some fruit or something. So unhealthy! Now, if one was vegan, or paleo, and they craved ice cream, they could go eat some peaches or something...as it totally works that way! not. Except people are generally satisfied in some sense by downing fruit. That much I can say. Maybe some more causal extremist dieter would even freeze the peaches and make a sorbet with a blender. But seeing since milk, eggs and honey actually provide a full spectrum of complex nutrients...even some difficult to get in a diet of mostly fruits and muscle meats and fish (due to the minerals and whole proteins in the milk). So, clearly no fruit nor meat, nut, or fish truly satisfies these kinds of cravings (without deep tissues, bones, and organs and such..which then lack the creamy and sugary part).
-
so you mean you mean you had a starch craving, and you chose to research (like on the the internet) and select a starch that was both raw and paleo, instead of eating a bunch of cooked plantains or something,
Yup... I asked a lot about raw starches and raw vegetables in this forum.
-
The biggest common diet faux-pas is probably to dismiss the idea that we need not only easy abundant energy/fuel but likely animal proteins and saturated fats and various vitamins and minerals and such. Some that are actually more rare in our current natural world to swear off too many foods. Acknowledging that even mediocre quality usually works to some degree. But people often just don't even get those things because they arn't in the form of 'vegan', 'paleo' 'LC' etc... Or yeah when people want to totally make up constructs of how we are supposed to eat. This splinters into tons of other debates. Processed vs raw, consequences of this or that, many of which have points on either end but are ignored on both sides due to zealotry.
But these things have complex variables, which is why you have people and gurus doing a variety of things and none of them being consistent ideal templates for all, or really very few beating out the Twinkie guy or McDonalds guy in leaps and bounds. Then some people say they have no template and eat all natural but having any understanding of physiology and eating, or understanding that these things always have their own blatantly destructive rules and dogmas, doesn't bode well for that either IMO.
I think alot of this just ties in with the other thread. Eating a nutrient rich diet + abundant energy sources can beat out an uplatable, nutrient sparse diet that avoids both nutrients and constant energy all under the umbrella of quality, or 'natural-ness' or whatever. Having a stable workable diet for basic living or healing is likely a pre-requite before making sure your diet avoids bad stuff. Add to that most people feel fantastic in the early stages of every diet change and then have the tendency to stick to things due to the same dogmas even through obvious problems. But other than that, maybe raw or paleo doesn't have these problems that the critics themselves over-zealously claim. Or, perhaps some people do need to remove 'bad stuff' before making any progress . Its hard to making sweeping statements about which is most important. Thats totally another splinter argument.
I completely agree with you. I only have trouble implementing a diet that is consistent with this logic.
I chose vegetarianism for philosophical beliefs (l)) but also because cooked, conventional meat was killing me. Cutting that out helped for a good while, then a new imbalance popped up and I was mowin' on peanut butter and chocolate chips everyday for "protein" (l)) and fats (which is legitimate, but I argue these are not good substitutes for dairy, red meat, and eggs).
And with raw animal foods it is the same story (or at least I think so), but on the opposite of the spectrum. The only problem is I don't want to eat vegetables anymore. I don't crave them and they aren't satisfying. There is some sort of balance or piece of nutrition that is absent. This is what leads me to believe that dairy is a good source of calories, vitamins and minerals.
One of my major confusions is that it seems logical that there is a food source which is just as you describe: abundant in nutrition and energy, and easily digestible. Of course I understand that the assumption that there is any one such food is foolish, but it seems plausible that there is such a combination that does meet these requirements. As a single food: milk might be the only whole food (as far as I can tell). Perhaps milk is not optimal, but good and better than most other single food sources--it is wholesome and very easily digestible. It seems plausible that the Milk Diet can be curative for many ailments but what one should incorporate after that or how one should eat after that is beyond me at this point. In terms of development, I feel that I need to retrace my path back to the "source" and then branch outwards to more complicated foods. In some ways I'm not responsible enough or rather not sensible enough to even responsibly care my body and mind. I'm certain that I caused some form of starvation because of my foolishness. It seems only logical that I need to make progression through regression. Then, once I've created stability and feel the urge for other foods, I could begin anew again. Or, am I just off on the deep end?
==
On another note: Part of me is becoming much more supportive of anopsology (instinctive eating). When I peruse the grocery store and choose what I want without thinking too much, I seem to do okay. Then, by habit I select the same foods and notice that I'm stuffing myself with food that I no longer need and am creating more harm than benefit. Moreover, I have become much more in tune with the instinct of taste; certain foods (pasteurized, processed, or not) will have a distinct taste then suddenly change after I've eaten a good portion of it. Perhaps one could practice instinctive eating even with processed foods but it would be dangerous because the manufacturing confuses our instincts. This experience leads me to believe that no one can tell me what I need and when. I was born with all the requisite tools to function optimally in this existence. The only problem is trying to wade through years of luxury which have dulled my senses and all the "intelligence" I've gained since exiting the womb. A third issue is availability; sometimes I'm craving something that just can't be sated by what's available around me.
-
I just read a study about them recently saying that they only drink milk for like 3 months out of the year. The rest of the time they don't and the yaks are pregnant. The article was about hormones in milk due to the milking of pregnant cows, especially in late term. But one of the points made is that these people are healthier (supposedly) because they don't consume as much milk and don't drink pregnancy milk. For whatever that's worth.
I believe I found the study you are referencing (http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html).
Wisdom gleaned from the article:
Part of the problem seems to be milk from modern dairy farms, where cows are milked about 300 days a year. For much of that time, the cows are pregnant. The later in pregnancy a cow is, the more hormones appear in her milk.
In traditional herding societies like Mongolia, cows are milked for human consumption only five months a year, said Ganmaa, and, if pregnant, only in the early stages. Consequently, levels of hormones in the milk are much lower.
She and her Harvard colleagues have already conducted two pilot studies. One compared levels of hormones and growth factors in American milk (whole, whole organic, skim milk, and UHT - ultra-high temperature - milk) to milk from Mongolia. Levels were very low in both American skim and in Mongolian milk.
For one, said Ganmaa, "milk is a food of great complexity" and contains high levels of beneficial nutrients, including calcium and vitamin D. (Mongolian children, who drink a third less dairy than their American counterparts, have low levels of vitamin D.)
But steps can be taken now to reduce the amount of hormones in milk, said Ganmaa. Because hormones reside in milk fat, drinking skim milk is one option. Getting calcium from green leafy vegetables is another.
Modes of milk production can also change, said Ganmaa. She suggested milking only nonpregnant cows (the Mongolian model), or not milking cows when they are in the later stages of pregnancy, when hormone levels are particularly high.
-
I don't know why milk is so low in Mg. maybe cause the calf etc. will be feeding on the springs young green grasses in only a matter of days or a week or two, which are loaded with Mg. One really has to consider that imbalance when consuming large amounts of milk. Over calcification is a real problem. Also very few dairies provide grain free milk and except for the spring and summer months, milk from cows eating green grasses. Hay fed cows is a whole different food.
also one can rebuild the bacteria which produce lactase, which digest lactose. It is written we all carry some, and if intolerant one can slowly add to the diet ever increasing smaller amounts of milk to feed and multiply those numbers (bacteria). Or, switch to Kefir or yogurts. They tend to be someone acidic and then the body has to deal with those amounts of lactic acid.
-
I don't know why milk is so low in Mg.
Because babies need to grow bones, and bones are pretty much all calcium/phosphate? Mg is less than 1% of the bone..
-
And, Or, because with cows, etc, nature has them eating green grass chocked full of mg. and that's where they get their mg. from. For those using milk in great amounts who already have matured bone skeleton, I believe the issue is where is one going to find adequate mg. sources to balance a very high ca. (milk) source.
-
Per 100g, in human milk there's
* 30mg calcium
* 3mg magnesium
In cow's milk
* 120mg calcium
* 12mg magnesium
Seems like the same ratio of 10:1 to me, and we don't eat any grass.
-
Ah, good post; have to wonder. I do imagine that if you looked at the overall mg/ca ratio of a young calf after it started grazing his mg. levels would be higher. Either way it looks like for humans while early development is happening in the first year or two, higher ca. levels is normal. So at this point I'll simply leave it with the idea that more often I hear nutrition authors pointing out that most people are mg. deficient and rarely hear them mention ca. deficiency, and mainly due to the ease of finding ca. in the foods we eat.
-
...more often I hear nutrition authors pointing out that most people are mg. deficient and rarely hear them mention ca. deficiency, and mainly due to the ease of finding ca. in the foods we eat.
And because it is known that most soils nowadays are Mg deficient.
-
I did the Milk Diet for about a month or so and felt better than I ever did on a diet based primarily in raw animal foods and not until now have I determined that it is because a diet of mostly raw meat has led to some terrible form of starvation.
In a guest post on The Nourished Life (http://www.livingthenourishedlife.com/2010/03/guest-post-matt-stone-on-milk-diet.html) Matt Stone discusses the Milk Diet and why it works--especially if you are starving yourself. There is so much valuable information in this post about the root cause of eating disorders, dieting, starvation and obesity. ....
Zeno, no offence intended, but that post is rather old.
Here's what he looked like at the time of that post:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zwI_BlkKQOw/S6FEcgtk9CI/AAAAAAAAAFI/q9qYhECuyoo/s320/MattStone.jpg)
Since then, Matt has lost most of his hair and he reported negative effects from his milk diet:
Matt after all-milk diet:
(http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/cBUATYrkrio/hqdefault.jpg)
"I only seem to lose hair when my diet has junk in it (white sugar, white flour, vegetable oil)." --Matt Stone, http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2010/7/14/i-used-to-think-matt-stone-was-a-douche-i-was-wrong.html (http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2010/7/14/i-used-to-think-matt-stone-was-a-douche-i-was-wrong.html)
"Hair loss, memory problems, lack of energy, loss of sex drive… These are all such clearcut signs of having your metabolism slow down.” --Matt Stone
Milk Diet Fail
Posted June 5th, 2010
http://180degreehealth.com/2010/06/milk-diet-fail (http://180degreehealth.com/2010/06/milk-diet-fail)
In today’s installment, we’ll summarize my milk diet adventure – in which I drank nothing but raw milk for weeks on end…
I called this one “milk diet fail,” not because the milk diet was a complete and “udder” failure – which it certainly wasn’t, but because I didn’t quite make it 30 days like I had hoped to.
Yes, that’s right, I’ve been eating solid food for 4 days now, and loving every last delicious, hot, salty, spicy, crunchy, chewable morsel of it. In fact, I can’t remember enjoying making and eating food as much as I have the last 4 days since “bagging” the milk diet.
On the 26th day of the milk diet I started having some gastrointestinal issues. I woke up and fasted for most of the day on the 27th, bent over in pain and pooping every 30 minutes. By the end of the day, the last thing in the world I was wanting to do was drink more m’f’in milk. Boo to the Moo.
Couple this with the fact that I was in basically a hyperallergenic state and snotty as hell, and I was ready to mooove on. I was even snoring for the first time in a decade or so, and keeping Aurora up at night. I had to sleep on the couch by the end of the milk diet – or, more accurately, lying awake on the couch at night. ....
After his failed raw milk experiment, Matt turned against milk:
Why Milk is Bad for You by Matt Stone
Posted September 26th, 2011
http://180degreehealth.com/2011/09/why-milk-is-bad-for-you (http://180degreehealth.com/2011/09/why-milk-is-bad-for-you)
"Milk does a body good right? Well, real milk can, but what’s sold at the supermarket is worlds apart from what can be considered nutritious food.180 Degree Health wants you to understand, when it comes to modern pasteurized, homogenized,store-bought garbage, why milk is bad for you. We are conditioned to believe that a diet without milk is dangerously low in vitamins and minerals. If we don’t get enough calcium, our bones will just turn to dust and we’ll collapse. Milk is a very nutritious food, but there are cons of milk often not highlighted.Many people have a very poor tolerance for it, particularly those who don’t produce much lactase – the digestive enzyme that digests milk sugar, or lactose."
It's hugely ironic to see somewhat tout a milk-heavy approach, citing Matt Stone, when Matt has since become more negative about it. Besides, why would you believe an extreme all-milk diet would be better than raw Paleo? Especially when espoused by Matt Stone, whose diet and advice seems to change dramatically from month to month?
+ for some, the raw paleo diet is not mostly animal foods or low carb.
Yeah, like the mostly-raw Paleo babe, Denise Minger.
I don't think you are wrong with your choices (I don't know), I just think you should experitment more ....
Yes, self experimentation is more valuable than guru opinions, in my experience.
The best thing about Tyler is he discourages people from putting all their faith in gurus. It's one of the most common mistakes in dietary circles.
-
1. Stone admits that the Milk Diet was not a fail (which contradicts his choice of language for the title of his post) in a comment (http://180degreehealth.com/2010/06/milk-diet-fail#comment-35072):
JT-
Like most things, it worked out and it didn't work out. To read this post and think that it was only negative with no positives would be mistaken and vice versa. On some level, it did feel healing, but the timing was definitely not good. After a long bout of inactivity and chugging milk during peak pollen season – I found it to be quite aggravating to be on a milk diet.
The question I was seeking to answer was can it bring body temperature and pulse rate up. The answer to that was clearly yes. On that level, it was a great success, and I imagine I'll be reaping the benefits of that for some time to come.
I think this just exemplifies Stone's sensationalist (attention grabbing) titles and style of writing. His comments are more constructive.
2. According to the quote that you provided Stone supposedly lost his hair from junk food, not milk:
I only seem to lose hair when my diet has junk in it (white sugar, white flour, vegetable oil).
However, the link that you provided didn't even work...Anyway, that quote is copied directly from your post.
3. In the post "Why Milk is Bad for You" (http://180degreehealth.com/2011/09/why-milk-is-bad-for-you), Stone exclusively discusses pasteurized milk and not raw milk:
Milk does a body good right? Well, real milk can, but what’s sold at the supermarket is worlds apart from what can be considered nutritious food.180 Degree Health wants you to understand, when it comes to modern pasteurized, homogenized,store-bought garbage, why milk is bad for you.
==
I appreciate your attempt at constructive criticism but it seems that the information you cited is quite weak.
That being said, I do not believe the Milk Diet is superior to RPD. You are misinterpreting the purpose of this thread and making false inferences. I believe in the Milk Diet as curative under certain conditions. Moreover, I definitely support the consumption of milk in moderation and under certain conditions (as the Mongols might consume it, for example).
Also, do not think that I'm outright supporting Stone as a health guru. I cited his post on the Milk Diet to demonstrate another source of support for the Milk Diet.
The purpose of this thread was to promote the Milk Diet. I found benefit in the Milk Diet and thought that others might, too.
-
I can agree that when I got my goats and was drinking raw goat milk, kefir, yogurts, I felt like I was on top of the world healthwise too. But it didn't work for me long term. But then it was my main food source. Balance may have been the key for me.
-
Zeno, maybe it will help to put some of your concerns to rest and clarify things by explaining that I currently eat some raw aged sheep's cheese.
All I know is that I'm dead fucking hungry for carbohydrates and can't stand it. How I can find a way to incorporate more carbohydrates into my diet is my task at hand.
What other carb-containing foods have you tried and with what results?
where does one fight a good source of carbohydrates that are raw and appetizing according to this way of eating? Trying to eat locally restricts most sources for carbohydrates. Milk is one of the few viable options regardless of location (to some extent).
Berries, honey, roots and tubers are indigenous to most areas of the world. Even the inland Eskimos have berries and "Eskimo potato."
Perhaps everyone understands the value of variety and carbohydrates, but I didn't and this was a painful lesson to learn.
This forum is full of praise of a wide variety of foods, including carby foods like fruits, honey and even raw milk, and even has a section dedicated to the Aajonus and Weston Price diets that include dairy products. So I'm curious as to the process you went through--when you were not aware that there is value in variety and carbs, where you originally got that notion, what eventually persuaded you to consider that all carby foods might not be bad, and why learning the value of variety and carby foods was apparently such a difficult lesson? In my case this forum (and other sources and my own experience) helped me to see the value of certain carby foods. The zero carb approach never made sense to me, but this forum did help me to see that some carby foods are even more beneficial than I suspected and that humans have higher tolerances for carbs than what I would have guessed.
There are so few zero carbers and VLCers here now, for example, that even the nearly moribund "Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach" section is moderated by me, an eater of honey, berries and some other fruits, roots, and some raw cheese (I might not even be LC any more, as I don't measure my macronutrients), who has always questioned "zero carb" thinking, though I did for a time consider that "facultative carnivore" might be a label appropriate for humans (which I see as a very different way of looking at diet than ZC).
1. Stone admits that the Milk Diet was not a fail (which contradicts his choice of language for the title of his post) in a comment (http://180degreehealth.com/2010/06/milk-diet-fail#comment-35072): ....
I think this just exemplifies Stone's sensationalist (attention grabbing) titles and style of writing.
Given that, can you please explain why you apparently expect us to believe that the Milk Diet "works" based in part on this article by Matt Stone that you rightly point out is contradictory and sensationalist? I get the sense that you and I are more in agreement than you are with Matt Stone, so I'm puzzled why you point to the article.
Please note that I didn't raise any concerns with your citing Porter--only with the failed Matt Stone milk diet experiment. My understanding is that Porter's milk diet was raw and therefore presumably better than Matt Stone's, yes?
his comments are more constructive.
So we should pick out the theoretical comments of Matt's that support pasteurized milk and ignore his actual experience regarding the hyperallergenic state, nasal congestion, snoring, etc.? Wouldn't it be more objective to look at the overall picture?
2. According to the quote that you provided Stone supposedly lost his hair from junk food, not milk:
I only seem to lose hair when my diet has junk in it (white sugar, white flour, vegetable oil).
Here's the updated link:
http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2010/7/14/i-used-to-think-matt-stone-was-a-douche-i-was-wrong.html (http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2010/7/14/i-used-to-think-matt-stone-was-a-douche-i-was-wrong.html)
My point was, that was Matt's claim at that time in July of 2010 while he had much more hair than he does now, then he lost much of that hair AFTER he made that claim, when he claimed he was no longer eating those foods, and it only took less than two years. I recommend checking out Matt's blog posts, writings and videos since July of 2010, during which he lost hair while claiming to eat what he regards as a healthy diet that boosts metabolism, body temperature and hair growth and claiming to know more than most other diet gurus about what people should eat and that their diets promote hair loss.
"Stone exclusively discusses pasteurized milk and not raw milk"
Which is another reason why I wondered why you cited Matt Stone regarding "the Milk Diet and why it works." I eat raw cheese myself, not pasteurized.
I appreciate your attempt at constructive criticism but it seems that the information you cited is quite weak.
The only things you have shown to be weak are the sensational and contradictory aspects of Matt Stone's article and the pasteurized aspect of his milk diet experiment, all of which we agree on.
You are misinterpreting the purpose of this thread and making false inferences.
I think this may be due to misunderstanding. If you still feel that way, please cite specific examples that I can respond to and I hope clarify. I'm not trying to imply anything beyond what I actually wrote, so any attempt to read between the lines will likely lead to false assumptions.
Please note also that Tyler was far harsher than I was:
Matt Stone is the author of that truly insane "high-everything diet", so has no credibility.
In comparison to that, I think my questions and comments were relatively fair.
I believe in the Milk Diet as curative under certain conditions.
Perhaps it is, but you've yet to provide any evidence for this. The only evidence you cited so far was a pasteurized Milk Diet that was a failure according to Matt Stone himself, whatever the reasons, and a brief mention of Porter, whose case sounds more compelling, though I haven't looked into it in depth.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to imply that no one benefits at all from any dairy products. I don't doubt that some folks fare quite well when including some dairy foods in their diet, particularly raw fermented--after all, I eat some raw aged sheep's cheese myself (though I haven't noticed any benefits from it or any other dairy product). I'm just sharing some info I've learned over the years, including from Matt Stone's own experience and that of the Mongols that I was already somewhat familiar with, and asking questions to learn more.
Moreover, I definitely support the consumption of milk in moderation and under certain conditions (as the Mongols might consume it, for example).
My understanding is that the Mongols consume milk and other dairy products from a variety of sources (sheep, goat, horse, camel and yak as well as cow - http://www.fao.org/docrep/011/i0588e/I0588E06.htm (http://www.fao.org/docrep/011/i0588e/I0588E06.htm)), with much of the milk being fermented and mostly from pastured sources. Do you consume any non-cow or fermented dairy products? The Mongols apparently cook and sun-dry much of their dairy products--do you regard that as OK?
Also, do not think that I'm outright supporting Stone as a health guru. I cited his post on the Milk Diet to demonstrate another source of support for the Milk Diet.
And your own insightful comments since then, as well as Matt Stone's own honest experiential reports, point out that Matt's experiment is actually a source of support for NOT consuming a pasteurized milk diet. Perhaps some day he will do a better experiment in which he fares better, but until that time, I don't think his is a shining example to cite in promoting a milk diet.
The purpose of this thread was to promote the Milk Diet.
Right, so it shouldn't be a surprise when questions are raised in response in a raw Paleo diet forum when someone posts a positive comment about Matt Stone's pasteurized milk diet experiment, yes?
What specifically does your version of the "Milk Diet" include and what has been your experience on it? Presumably it's not the same pasteurized milk diet that Matt Stone tried and abandoned. How long have you been doing it and how long do you guesstimate you'll stay on it (for example, is your current approach just a temporary therapeutic diet, as you've hinted, and will that be followed by a longer-term maintenance diet that contains less milk)?
Anyway, I think I'm just going to resolve like Matt Stone to eat whatever the hell I want for a while.
That's your choice, but I'm still a bit puzzled as to why you would want to follow his example rather than that of Porter or someone else. I think he sometimes makes interesting points, and I even read his RRARF! ebook, but overall I've found the raw Paleo/Primal approach to be more beneficial for me than pizza, conventional pasteurized ice cream, maple syrup, etc., though I don't rule out that one could temporarily experience benefits from consuming those foods, such as in someone who's undereating and whose body has entered starvation mode.
Another alternative source to Matt Stone is Danny Roddy (http://www.dannyroddy.com (http://www.dannyroddy.com)), a friend of Matt's. Danny consumes raw dairy, rather than pasteurized, and eats a diet that's much closer to raw Paleo than Matt's and instead of experiencing hair loss, Danny has had hair regrowth and is the author of Hair Like a Fox.
-
Never heard a milk diet need to try it for once. :)
-
http://www.milk-diet.com/classics/macfadden/macfaddenmain.html (http://www.milk-diet.com/classics/macfadden/macfaddenmain.html)
Never heard a milk diet need to try it for once. :)
-
I have been into raw and healthy foods for a few decades and had a pretty stable healthy diet for such long time that I would like to share my experiences of adding raw 100% grass-fed Jersey cow dairy because it might be an oddity to have someone have such a long fairly consistent diet and then just add dairy. I did not do a dairy fast. I just added some into my diet, going on and off it some times for weeks -- for a couple of years. I never had a negative reaction. I enjoyed it a great deal and it made my diet broader and more interesting.
Not too long ago however I wanted to start up exercising again .... but my bones were having serious trouble! Without my realizing it they were my weakest link in exercise when they never had been before. It became easy for me to hurt a bone. For my whole life I could go without exercise and just pick it up easily and go with again - but the last time I tried my bones wouldn't allow it. My joints and bones hurt too much to exercise.
Tyler suggested it could be the dairy. I gave it up. It was the only real change. My bones have felt better continually ever since until now they are back to my normal. My bones are no longer the weak link they had become when including dairy in my diet.
The negative effects for me were very slow to take hold. I never have been allergic to dairy, never had any immediate negative effects and took a GREAT deal of time and effort to learn many different ways of working with dairy to the point where I felt quite attached to it. I made my own cheese, butter and lots of very lovely treats with it so I certainly never had an intellectual or philosophical grudge against it. It also was never a very large part of my diet so that can't be blamed. I just enjoyed some added here and there when I could get out and pick up the milk to work with it. The negative effects seemed to be insidious for me over time even without consistent every day use.
Well - there's one person's experience for you to do with what you wish. :D
-
Dorothy, I think your problems may have been because of the excessive calcium/magnesium ratio.
I have experienced somewhat the same thing you are talking about from raw dairy. However, when I switched to eating only fermented cream,which has much less mineral content per calorie, my joint problem went away.
I know that joint problems can also be because of an allergic reaction to something in the milk, too, but that's not true in every case.
-
Cheri - I fermented all the dairy - but I was eating more than just the cream and butter I made from it. I was also eating the cheese and some of the whey as well. I have often wondered if it would be the same kind of problem for me if I just stuck to fermented cream and butter. That's the best part anyway and what I miss the most. Nothing can beat freshly picked tiny strawberries from the garden mixed into fermented cream. ;)
-
Cheri - I fermented all the dairy - but I was eating more than just the cream and butter I made from it. I was also eating the cheese and some of the whey as well. I have often wondered if it would be the same kind of problem for me if I just stuck to fermented cream and butter.
If you want to do the experiment, I'd be interested to hear what happens.
-
Well, I tend to do these experiments in terms of years to make sure I can get hints of the long-term effects. After trying dairy for a couple of years I will probably go at least a year if not two or three - to re-establish my baseline first. Since the deterioration was so slow and insidious my body might need more time than I might be able to tell just from my own conscious perceptions to build up to it's true normal strength on all levels again. Even then, I think I would need to feel like there was a real benefit to cream and butter that I wouldn't get elsewhere to take the chance after my last experience. If it was an immediate response then I would do it out of curiosity, but because it took a couple of years to show up - I'm not sure that I'm curious enough to put myself on the line like that again without a really good reason to do so. I can think of some incentives that could come up. We'll just have to see.
It would be years from now - but I bet we'll still be here right Cheri? - so I'll be sure to let you know!
-
If you want me to point you to the next few websites you'll probably be following after that one, let me know.
I would be interested in some of the websites you would recommend. I am 3 months into Raw Primal and am very confused about some things.
-
Cheri - I fermented all the dairy - but I was eating more than just the cream and butter I made from it. I was also eating the cheese and some of the whey as well. I have often wondered if it would be the same kind of problem for me if I just stuck to fermented cream and butter. That's the best part anyway and what I miss the most. Nothing can beat freshly picked tiny strawberries from the garden mixed into fermented cream. ;)
Hey Dorothy and all.
Just want to point out that your bones and joints pain not necessarily occurred due to drinking and eating dairy products.
But let's say pain was caused by dairy.
How do you know that your pain was actually something bad happening to you? Especially regarding joints (you said you are an experienced dieter, you have your diet perfect for few decades... So you are not that young anymore right?).
You said: "It became easy for me to hurt a bone". Have you broke any bone during exercise? If yes then clearly you may be right regarding dairy consumption (in your case at least).
Have you made any bone density scans?
Also PAIN is a very broad term. Sometimes pain is actually a sign of healing. You stopped dairy and felt better but that doesn't mean dairy was a problem (and doesn't mean you actually made good decision)
I just want to say to be cautious about making any statements without providing hard evidence.
Regarding hormones in dairy and meat. There is no evidence that hormones present in food will pass through digestive tract (especially stomach) in unchanged and active form. In fact there are some strong reasons to believe they will not.
In general, hormones can't be administrated orally (without risk of toxicity) because acidity of stomach will change their form and turn them useless (biologically inactive) . That's one reason why preferred are injectables.
Of course there are oral hormones as well but they will get activated in the liver only and then will hit tissues. So in the muscles of animals or/and dairy products they end up in an active form. Even if they somehow make it to our plate they will surely get destroyed by stomach acidity.
That's why bodybuilders prefer injectables over oral stuff. Oral stuff can be hard on liver. And they can't just drink or eat free forms (or esters) of hormones for reasons I mentioned earlier.
"Hormones in meat and milk" BS was probably created by vegetarians and some "eko friendly" freaks.
Of course there are other problems with milk and meat but that's a different story.
-
Dorothy was simply doing an elimination diet and correctly determined that raw dairy was the culprit. One cannot convincingly claim that simply cutting out a problem food is merely a "detox".
Also, I and plenty of other RVAFers have had personal experience of the hormonal effects of raw and pasteurised dairy on my own body, so I am extremely dubious of any claims that the hormones in dairy have no effect and are completely digested before becoming a problem etc.
-
Raw milk wasn't good for me either. I developed white stuff on my tongue (candida symptom) and my taste for raw animal foods completely disappeared. The same eggs and meats I was eating pre raw milk were gross to me. But I was drinking tons of raw milk daily.
-
Yeah, didnt work for me either. Ive cuted raw dairy in two days my jaundice and diarrhea stoped. Finally! I can now tolerate some fruits and my skin is getting better, i developed anemia i believe, now i drink watercress juice to correct this..i know raw liver is good also, but i feel watercress is stronger..any opinion?
Aparently, dairy is not for everyone.
Peace
-
liver is the best thing, besides blood, for curing anemia. its great for a quick reversal of anemic symptoms and overall healing. if raw liver is hard to take try grinding and mixing it with muscle (esp. heart) meats. I am pretty sure watercress are in the same plant family(brassica) as broccoli and cabbage, there is some chemical or mineral interaction that makes those who eat a lot of brassica family veg more prone to anemia
-
liver is the best thing, besides blood, for curing anemia. its great for a quick reversal of anemic symptoms and overall healing. if raw liver is hard to take try grinding and mixing it with muscle (esp. heart) meats. I am pretty sure watercress are in the same plant family(brassica) as broccoli and cabbage, there is some chemical or mineral interaction that makes those who eat a lot of brassica family veg more prone to anemia
Yeah, i love liver, beef liver, but i dont have acess to grass fed beef liver..love it tough. Do you believe i can have bearly the same benefits just by eating it anyway?
Peace