Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Joy2012 on May 01, 2012, 01:01:14 pm
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I am reading Loren Cordain’s latest book, THE PALEO ANSWER, published in 2012. Here is part of his table on AGE contents in foods (KU per 100 grams):
Apple (AGE content is 13)
Avocado (1577)
Banana (9)
Cantaloupe (20)
Dates (60)
Carrots (10)
Celery (43)
Cucumber (31)
Olives (1670)
Onion (36)
Tomato (23)
Grilled vegetables (broccoli, carrots, celery) (226)
Raw beef (707)
Roast beef (6071)
Broiled beef steak (7479)
Raw pork chop (1188)
Pan fried pork chop (4752)
Raw lamb (826)
Broiled lamb leg (1218)
Raw chicken breast (769)
Chicken breast boiled with lemon (1123)
Deep fried chicken breast (9722)
Raw trout (783)
Raw shrimp (1003)
Salmon poached for 7 minutes (1801)
Poached eggs (90)
Scrambled eggs (med. low heat) (97)
Omelet (olive oil, low heat) (339)
Butter (23340)
Parmesan cheese (16900)
Philadelphia cream cheese (10883)
Brie cheese (5597)
Mozzarella cheese (1677)
Raw cashews (2723)
Raw pumpkin seeds (1853)
Raw sunflower seeds (2510)
Broiled beef frankfurter (11270)
Mayonnaise (9400)
Potato chips (2883)
Extra virgin olive oil (10040)
Vinegar (40)
What do you think of this AGE information? It appears raw fruit/vegetables are far better than raw beef/lamb/chicken/pork. And even poached/scrambled eggs are far better than raw animal flesh. Cooked animal flesh is horrible of course.
Granted, when we eat raw fruit, we often eat 20 times more than raw beef, quantity-wise. But still, 2000 grams of fruit still has far less AGE than 100 grams of raw beef. (I feel so disappointed. I have learned to love raw beef…)
Cordain does not think domesticated produce is much worse than wild produce. He does say wild is better, but not to a great degree. He says “feel free to eat as much fresh (domesticated) fruit as you like” unless you have a weight problem or diseases.
Now Tyler is right about dairy products from the AGE-point-of-view. On the other hand, the dairy on Cordain’s table appears to be the cooked version.
I am surprised that extra virgin olive oil is bad too.
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This has a lot more foods covered, and is the source of Loren Cordain I think:
http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf (http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf)
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This has a lot more foods covered, and is the source of Loren Cordain I think:
http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf (http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf)
Maybe not.
In the study of your link, 100g of Fried Egg has 2,749 KU of AGE. That is VERY different from Cordain's table.
Does anyone has the information on the AGE content of coconut oil?
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The paper above has info on coconut cream and milk.
I'm not sure how's it VERY different regarding the eggs:
"Egg, scrambled, pan, med-low, olive oil, 2 min" (paper) = "Scrambled eggs (med. low heat)" (your table) = 97
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aLptHW4k4y, thank you. I did not see the whole table.
So milk/yogurt has minimal AGE, while cheese is really bad. Coconut cream is bad too.
Ways of cooking make a world of difference in the AGE contents of foods.
But the problem is: both raw produce and lightly cooked produce are far better than raw animal flesh if we only consider AGE.
So the question is: how important is AGE to health?
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It's been pointed out that AGE-levels are quite high in raw animal foods coming from animals raised on very unhealthy, grainfed diets. Basically, AGEs are heavily involved in inflammation - while cooking causes inflammation, so does feeding your animals on very unhealthy diets.
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AGE is definitely important for publishing industry. At last Cordain has something else to write about. It seems similar to cholesterol - initially it was considered bad, that it turned out there are two types and if eating paleo style you don't have to worry about it.
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I find this AGE table presents me with lots of problems that are against common sense. For example:
(1) Raw beef (100g) has 707 KU AGE ; while corned brisket beef (deli meat) has only 199
(2) Salad dressing, Italian, lite (Diet Source, Novartis Nutr Corp) has 0 AGE
(3) Fresh tuna baked for 25 minutes has 919 KU AGE; Canned chunk light tuna w/ water has 452 AGE. Doesn't canned fish go through high-heat cooking?
(4) Soy burger, Boca Burger, microwaved, 1.5 min (BOCA Foods Co) has 67 KU AGE; while raw tofu has 788 AGE.
(5) Bread, white, Italian, center (Freihoffer’s, Bimbo Bakeries, Horsham, PA) has 23 KU AGE; Dinner roll (inside) has 23 KU AGE.
(6) Puffed wheat (breakfast cereal) has 17 KU AGE .
(7) Rice, Uncle Ben’s white, cooked, 35 min (Mars, Inc, Houston, TX) has 9 KU AGE. White sugar and aspartame have 0 AGE. Coke has 2.8 AGE. Coffee has 1.6 AGE.
Does that mean processed cooked rice, lite Italian salad dressing, puffed wheat, white Italian bread, sugar, aspartame, coke, coffee, and dinner roll are good for health as they produce few AGE?
Tyler, your defense for grass-fed animal food provides me with some comfort.
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Does that mean processed cooked rice, lite Italian salad dressing, puffed wheat, white Italian bread, sugar, aspartame, coke, coffee, and dinner roll are good for health as they produce few AGE?
People eating this stuff don't have to worry about their AGE because they die young :)
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People eating this stuff don't have to worry about their AGE because they die young :)
That's funny...
But I feel genuinely confused. What about all those chemicals/antinutrients/toxins in these foods, which turn out to contain few AGE?
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Look, AGEs are naturally produced in tiny amounts in all animals, even humans, regardless of diet. The levels of AGEs will be much higher in raw meats from animals intensively-farmed, not just because of the unhealthy diet but because of farming conditions which cause increased stress and physical injuries etc. AGEs in cooked animal foods will be even higher as cooking really ups the amounts. True, plant foods, when cooked, tend to produce fewer AGEs(and fewer HCAs, NSAs and PAHs). The catch is that plant foods are not complete foods, so lack key nutrients such as coenzyme q10 or they have nutrients in forms which humans can't properly absorb(such as vitamin b12 levels in algae). Also, animal foods have much higher nutrient levels in general than plant foods. As regards toxins, cooking vegetables does reduce some of the antinutrients, but other plant foods like grains still have plenty of antunutrients left over after cooking, and cause other problems in the long-term, unrelated to the toxin-load, since we are not genetically adapted to eating them.
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Does that mean processed cooked rice, lite Italian salad dressing, puffed wheat, white Italian bread, sugar, aspartame, coke, coffee, and dinner roll are good for health as they produce few AGE?
They don't produce, they contain little AGE products.
Does that make them healthier? There are millions of other factors besides AGE products, you have to take it all into account. I don't think the current science can tell you if they are better or worse, until we discover every little molecule, nutrient, hormone, and put it all down in a model that is extremely close to reality.
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This is the exact reason why I don't care what "science says" or "proves".
(Even if there was no direct incentive for the scientist to "rig the science" or outright falsify the results - which usually IS THERE in "these days" of the last century or two.)
Science measures 1 thing and ignores (or isn't even ABLE to measure) a million other things.
Does plastics have any AGEs?... I guess NOT! Why don't we eat plastic then?
Science is great when we build new things like buildings/cars/electronics from the stuff we already know, but in "optimizing" natural living things it always fails...
And EVEN THOSE man-made things based on science have a lot of unintentional negative consequences to our life.
Unfortunately they're usually "too good of a bussiness opportunity" for the people that produce them to care about those consequences - as long as it doesn't affect them. But that's a natural consequence of individualistic "private property" society that we've evolved to.
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All these new buzz words have to be taken with a grain of salt because over time more and more new important things to consider in your diet pop up. I remember the first time I heard about anti-oxidants, the first time I heard the word enzyme, then enzyme inhibitors, not long ago anti-nutrients and now AGEs -- tomorrow it will be something else.
The best you can do is to say, well, cooking seems to increase these, seems to decrease those and this food has this or that - so let me experiment and see how it makes me feel.
The idea with paleo is that before the agricultural revolution no one knew any of these words and evolved eating raw foods and seemed to do ok - the species at least survived - and there are lots of folks here who feel tremendously better eating foods that aren't cooked.
AGEs, enzymes, anti-nutrients - whatever - all good when trying to figure out why you feel so much better and explain it to someone else - but not so good if they make you obsessed.
Greens and soaked nuts make me feel great and others not so great here. No one is going to be able to convince me that I should stopped picking weeds and greens out in my garden and eating them no matter what new fancy word they use to tell me why I shouldn't. I will listen and take it under advisement - but I trust my body more than any other person because really - nobody has the whole scientific picture - far from it.
Letting a dietary element or discovery open your mind and guide experimentation can create increased health, giving it too much power however over your choices I'm not sure is such a good idea. Food and health is simply too complex to be reduced to just one or even ten elements.
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Thanks to all who help me gain a proper perspective on AGE.
I do regret that I ate tons of cream and cheese (very high in AGE) in the past few months, although they were truly raw dairy from pastured cows. Maybe this is the reason that I have not seen improvement in my health since I started RP diet early this year.
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Thanks to all who help me gain a proper perspective on AGE.
I do regret that I ate tons of cream and cheese (very high in AGE) in the past few months, although they were truly raw dairy from pastured cows. Maybe this is the reason that I have not seen improvement in my health since I started RP diet early this year.
Hopefully you also drank a lot of coke, coffee and ate puffed wheat to compensate for AGE damage :)
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Hopefully you also drank a lot of coke, coffee and ate puffed wheat to compensate for AGE damage :)
LOL CarnivorousApe. Right to the point there.
But Joy - seriously - think about Apes point. You aren't convinced that the only reason you might have felt not as good from the cream and cheese was because they are high in AGE do you? Dairy also has lots of other things in it that might not have agreed with you. Dairy in general can even mess up some folks that can eat an otherwise pretty bad diet and be ok without the dairy. Dairy does some people lots of good and some people lots of bad - AGEs or no AGEs. I can eat raw dairy every day and feel good but feed me consistently coffee or coke (or some other low AGE foods) and I'd be really messed up (and have been :) ).
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I think the tables only showed the AGE-levels for pasteurised grainfed dairy, not for raw, grassfed dairy.
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I really did not feel bad at all when I ate dairy, so I kept eating it. Actually I was kind of addicted to gruyere cheese. But I feel confused that I have not seen any health improvement after 3 months on strict high-quality RP diet (raw dairy is at least allowed in Primal diet). So I think maybe dairy is the offender...After all eating dairy is controversial in the RP diet community. I guess the way to find out is to cut out dairy for a couple of months...
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Forgive me for perhaps being dense, but after 2 pages of comments I don't know what AGE is. AGE on google isn't going to return much in the way of meaningful results.
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Forgive me for perhaps being dense, but after 2 pages of comments I don't know what AGE is. AGE on google isn't going to return much in the way of meaningful results.
AGEs= Advanced Glycation End-Products.
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I really did not feel bad at all when I ate dairy, so I kept eating it. Actually I was kind of addicted to gruyere cheese. But I feel confused that I have not seen any health improvement after 3 months on strict high-quality RP diet (raw dairy is at least allowed in Primal diet). So I think maybe dairy is the offender...After all eating dairy is controversial in the RP diet community. I guess the way to find out is to cut out dairy for a couple of months...
Yeah - that's the only way anyone ever knows about dairy whether paleo or not. The standard for testing sensitivities is to not eat a food at all for awhile (I suggest 3 months) and then what you do is eat a lot of it - have a dairy meal. As long as you are eating dairy every day you won't be able to tell if it is making you feel bad or causing the problems that you want improved or not.
Guyere is truly a tasty cheese. ;D
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Avoid raw veggie-juice as well. Bear also in mind that while some experience benefits immediately, some others take a lot longer(up to 2 or 3 years) to heal really complicated health-problems.
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AGEs= Advanced Glycation End-Products.
Ah, OK. Now research can be done.
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I really did not feel bad at all when I ate dairy, so I kept eating it. Actually I was kind of addicted to gruyere cheese. But I feel confused that I have not seen any health improvement after 3 months on strict high-quality RP diet (raw dairy is at least allowed in Primal diet). So I think maybe dairy is the offender...After all eating dairy is controversial in the RP diet community. I guess the way to find out is to cut out dairy for a couple of months...
This is the first case of lack of improvement on RP after 3 months or more I can recall (some people have quit within days or weeks, but that's too short a period to learn much from), and such negative reports can be just as educational as success stories, so I'm interested in what your top ten, say, staple foods in addition to raw cream and cheese were during those 3 months. Thanks.
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Forgive me for perhaps being dense, but after 2 pages of comments I don't know what AGE is. AGE on google isn't going to return much in the way of meaningful results.
There was a link to pdf that explains what AGE is on the first page of this topic.
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I really did not feel bad at all when I ate dairy, so I kept eating it. Actually I was kind of addicted to gruyere cheese. But I feel confused that I have not seen any health improvement after 3 months on strict high-quality RP diet (raw dairy is at least allowed in Primal diet). So I think maybe dairy is the offender...After all eating dairy is controversial in the RP diet community. I guess the way to find out is to cut out dairy for a couple of months...
I am a newbie to RP myself, so we can draw from each other experiences, Joy.
Maybe your addiction to cheese was a way to compensate for harsh transition to RP. I am transitioning for around year now and feel improvements all along the way.
I feel great on fermented dairy, actually it is a lifesaver as I still eat cooked foods, but I'm going to reduce amount gradually. Fresh milk however is a total killer for me.
Another reason for no visible improvments might be that body needs time do detox, might take a while.
It would be helpful if you elaborated a bit more, in addition to doc questions:
1. What improvements did you expect from the diet?
2. Do you feel worse on it or there is no change at all?
3. How rapid was your transition?
4. What was your diet before transition?
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Thanks to all who are going to diagnose me and give me valuable advice.
Before January 2012 my diet was very-high-raw vegan (90+%) plus a little cooked seafood (2%). I also ate a little bit of miscellaneous food, mostly considered healthy by society.
Since late January 2012, My diet has been like this:
(1) Truly raw Gruyere cheese from local pastured cows (almost 1/3 of my diet; that is horrible now I know)
(2) 100% grass-fed beef from Whole Foods ( minced in my food processor with raw coconut cream, coconut oil, lemon juice and lots of raw organic garlic/onion/cilantro/ginger plus a little store-bought cooked organic spices, warmed up in my dehydrator at 115 F; I really love this dish)
(3) Wild caught Alaskan salmons (smaller whole salmons, which are cheaper than fillets; processed the same way as my beef dish)
(4) Truly raw cream from pastured cows at a local farm (often fermented into sour cream)
(5) Raw organic walnuts, soaked and dehydrated
That is the bulk of my diet. Occasionally I have wild caught shrimps/scallops (from Whole Foods), bison from Slankers, organic produce (avocados, melons, apples, cauliflower, Romaine lettuce), organic decaf. coffee, organic herbal teas. I also tried some organs and bone marrow from Slanker's; I like liver/heart but I seldom eat them because of the difficulty of getting them. (So far I only ordered from Slankers once. I mostly shop at local grocers. ) I eat raw whenever possible (coconut oil/spices are not raw). I seldom use salt.
I have been low carb or very low carb on most days, because it appears to me LC/VLC is the pinnacle of RP diet. (I seldom test ketogenic though, as far as I can tell. It seems my body uses up all the ketones...or I eat too much protein) I adopted LC because I wanted to find out as soon as possible whether RP is better than raw vegan.
I bumped into this forum accidentally in late December 2011. I was just looking for a raw forum which would give me permission to eat raw cheese and I was tired of listening to raw vegans’ “eating dairy/fish is un-ethical” accusation. When I read the testimonials of the members on this forum, I decided RP is worth a try. I totally switched from raw vegan to RP within a month.
I have never had any serious health issues. I haven't seen a doctor since my childhood days. (Yes I have good health insureance but I am too lazy to go to the hospital for regular check-up.) Actually I have not had a cold/flu for more than one decade since I adopted a mostly raw vegan diet. But I do not feel energetic. And I do not look healthy these past couple of years (pale tired vegan look). These are the two areas I hoped to see improvement through my new RP diet.
I do not feel different now as compared to 2011. I do not seem to look different. (But I do not look at myself in the mirror often.)
I do enjoy my RP diet. Now I plan to lay aside dairy for four months and see if my beloved cheese is the offender. [As I am going to spend my summer in Taiwan where there is no raw dairy, this abstinence from raw dairy will be easy to carry out.]
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Avoid raw veggie-juice as well. Bear also in mind that while some experience benefits immediately, some others take a lot longer(up to 2 or 3 years) to heal really complicated health-problems.
What is wrong with vegi-juice?
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What is wrong with vegi-juice?
It has been claimed that juicing not only releases more of the vegetables' nutrients but also releases more of the antinutrients as well, thus causing problems re deficiencies etc.
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Thank, Tyler. Do you have a short article that explains anti-nutrients?
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http://www.13.waisays.com/plants.htm (http://www.13.waisays.com/plants.htm)
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/224159-Plants-Bite-Back-The-Surprising-All-Natural-Anti-Nutrients-and-Toxins-in-Plant-Foods (http://www.sott.net/articles/show/224159-Plants-Bite-Back-The-Surprising-All-Natural-Anti-Nutrients-and-Toxins-in-Plant-Foods)
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I do enjoy my RP diet. Now I plan to lay aside dairy for four months and see if my beloved cheese is the offender. [As I am going to spend my summer in Taiwan where there is no raw dairy, this abstinence from raw dairy will be easy to carry out.]
You have indeed been eating a lot of cheese and other dairy, so that is a possible culprit and an elimination test does make sense. What are you going to replace it with, marrow, suet, back fat, tongue, egg yolks, ...?
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I have been low carb or very low carb on most days, because it appears to me LC/VLC is the pinnacle of RP diet. (I seldom test ketogenic though, as far as I can tell. It seems my body uses up all the ketones...or I eat too much protein) I adopted LC because I wanted to find out as soon as possible whether RP is better than raw vegan.
I bumped into this forum accidentally in late December 2011. I was just looking for a raw forum which would give me permission to eat raw cheese and I was tired of listening to raw vegans’ “eating dairy/fish is un-ethical” accusation. When I read the testimonials of the members on this forum, I decided RP is worth a try. I totally switched from raw vegan to RP within a month.
I have never had any serious health issues. I haven't seen a doctor since my childhood days. (Yes I have good health insureance but I am too lazy to go to the hospital for regular check-up.) Actually I have not had a cold/flu for more than one decade since I adopted a mostly raw vegan diet. But I do not feel energetic. And I do not look healthy these past couple of years (pale tired vegan look). These are the two areas I hoped to see improvement through my new RP diet.
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I do not feel different now as compared to 2011. I do not seem to look different. (But I do not look at myself in the mirror often.)
Thanks Joy, great information and recipes :)
I personally don't think that LowCarb is a pinnacle of paleo diet (gasp!)
For me the pinnacle is - eat the way body evolved to eat. I believe our ancestors ate as much carbohydrate as they could get at any opportunity. During some seasons they ate a lot of fruits, berries, but they didn't stop eating high carb tubers whole year around. I also think that they started cooking tubers as soon as they managed fire as it increases amount of energy you get from them dramatically.
I found LowCarb claims dubious at best. There is wacky science behind them and it seems like every physically active low carber eats high carb meals after workouts which is suspicious to me.
Your diet seems amazing but it painfully lacks carbs in my opinion. Fermented dairy doesn't seem like a culprit to me.
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Increasing carbs is indeed another possibility to test. When I test things, I try to test them one at a time until I get a sense of what effects they have.
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You have indeed been eating a lot of cheese and other dairy, so that is a possible culprit and an elimination test does make sense. What are you going to replace it with, marrow, suet, back fat, tongue, egg yolks, ...?
Since I am going to Taiwan soon to stay for 3 months, I will not have access to grass-fed/pastured animal flesh/fat/organs. Salmons there basically come from fish farms in China. So I really do not have much choice if I want to stay Raw Paleo.
I will have to find out (after I get to Taiwan) what wild-caught seafood Taiwan has. (Tyler, thank you for having given me the names of some species of wild-caught fish that are not farmed yet.) Taiwan is called “the kingdom of fruits” and has various kinds of hybrid delicious non-organic fruits. I read that peeled fruits are free from most pesticides. So my Taiwan diet may be just wild-caught seafood and fruits mostly. I plan to take some coconut oil and raw coconut cream and raw dried spices with me to Taiwan.
Taiwan does have organic produce but most of it is prohibitively expensive. Now Whole Foods grocers suddenly appear very affordable and attractive.
One article Tyler supplied says that “fruits and sashimi or fresh raw egg yolk (mixed with avocado) combined, contain all nutrients you need.”
http://www.13.waisays.com/plants.htm (http://www.13.waisays.com/plants.htm)
Maybe while in Taiwan I will be forced to test if this statement is true.
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http://www.13.waisays.com/plants.htm (http://www.13.waisays.com/plants.htm)
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/224159-Plants-Bite-Back-The-Surprising-All-Natural-Anti-Nutrients-and-Toxins-in-Plant-Foods (http://www.sott.net/articles/show/224159-Plants-Bite-Back-The-Surprising-All-Natural-Anti-Nutrients-and-Toxins-in-Plant-Foods)
Tyler, thanks. I browsed the articles. They distressed me… So fruit and veggies do not exist primarily for the purpose of serving our appetites and health.
From these two articles, it seems to me that fruit is much better than veggies?
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Ah, OK. Now research can be done.
If your research results in useful information/insight, please share in simple language that is understandable to literature/arts majors.
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Thanks Joy, great information and recipes :)
I personally don't think that LowCarb is a pinnacle of paleo diet (gasp!)
For me the pinnacle is - eat the way body evolved to eat. I believe our ancestors ate as much carbohydrate as they could get at any opportunity. During some seasons they ate a lot of fruits, berries, but they didn't stop eating high carb tubers whole year around. I also think that they started cooking tubers as soon as they managed fire as it increases amount of energy you get from them dramatically.
Your diet seems amazing but it painfully lacks carbs in my opinion. Fermented dairy doesn't seem like a culprit to me.
If you want to try the beef recipe, note that all the spices should be in dried forms; otherwise the dish would be too wet. Also if you place the minced beef (spread out in a plate) in the dehydrator for more than one hour, the top will be “browned” and taste sort of crispy.
Thank you for your thougths on carbs. I may have to go back to carbs during my stay in Taiwan...
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Fruits are fine to eat. I also still eat some raw vegetables, but that's rare and I only choose those vegetables I like the taste of(only c. 5 or 6).
Everyone is different, but I don't find that I absorb or properly digest most types of raw eggs. Raw fish and fruit is fine for a week for me, but my experiments in the long-term along that line were not successful. But, like I said, everyone is different - I do best with c. 40% of my diet being raw seafood(mainly raw wildcaught shellfish) and the rest consisting of meats, organ-meats and some fruit, and a tiny bit of raw veg here and there.
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If you want to try the beef recipe, note that all the spices should be in dried forms; otherwise the dish would be too wet. Also if you place the minced beef (spread out in a plate) in the dehydrator for more than one hour, the top will be “browned” and taste sort of crispy.
Thank you for your thougths on carbs. I may have to go back to carbs during my stay in Taiwan...
Yes, I'm thinking about getting dehydrator to cure muscle meat. I tried raw lamb liver today. Sliced it on a plate, added some salt and pepper. That was great. Actually liver tastes strongly even without any spices.
I didn't notice organ meats in your diet, could it be another cause of low energy levels?
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Yes, I'm thinking about getting dehydrator to cure muscle meat. I tried raw lamb liver today. Sliced it on a plate, added some salt and pepper. That was great. Actually liver tastes strongly even without any spices.
I didn't notice organ meats in your diet, could it be another cause of low energy levels?
I use my dehydrator all the time. It is a great instrument. At this stage I still cannot stomach any raw animal flesh without warming it up first.
I had several pounds of organs in the past 3 months. I love liver. It is just that I was lazy about getting organs from Slankers and also I love my minced beef dish so much...My thought was that I had not touched beef for years so it wouldn't hurt if I should indulge in beef for a few months... When I return to U.S. from Taiwan in late August I will strive for a more balanced RP diet. I am not giving it up yet...I trust the testimonials given by the members of this RP forum...because a good number of them had tried other healing diets and they all testify to RP diet....
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I use my dehydrator all the time. It is a great instrument. At this stage I still cannot stomach any raw animal flesh without warming it up first.
I had several pounds of organs in the past 3 months. I love liver. It is just that I was lazy about getting organs from Slankers and also I love my minced beef dish so much...My thought was that I had not touched beef for years so it wouldn't hurt if I should indulge in beef for a few months... When I return to U.S. from Taiwan in late August I will strive for a more balanced RP diet. I am not giving it up yet...I trust the testimonials given by the members of this RP forum...because a good number of them had tried other healing diets and they all testify to RP diet....
I doubt that muscle meat was often eaten fresh in paleo times anyway. It is better be "predigested" in some way - marinated, cured or fermented. Organs and bone marrow is a different story.
I tried raw vegan diet and got crazy amounts of energy from it initially. However feeling hungry all the time didn't make me happy :) And I started to get pains in the left of my stomach (probably pancreas due to all fruits)
Switched to cooked vegetarian (hello gluten), felt even worse.
Started to get better slowly after switching to paleo. Still getting a lot of carbs, prefer cooked carbs (potatoes, non-gluten grains) to fruits.
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Thanks for your testimonial. That is one more testimonial for RP diet
I started to get pains in the left of my stomach (probably pancreas due to all fruits)
Why would raw fruit hurt pancreas?
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Thanks for your testimonial. That is one more testimonial for RP diet
Why would raw fruit hurt pancreas?
I don't know for sure it was pancreas, but it usually hurts in that place after I eat a lot of sweets. As fruits contain a lot of sugar that might be a problem if they are eaten constantly. Sugar -> insulin spikes. I always feel hunger after eating fruits, that's why I prefer cooked carbs.
Plus I heard that pancreas produces meat digesting enzyme and if no meat is eaten it start to digest itself.
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I don't know for sure it was pancreas, but it usually hurts in that place after I eat a lot of sweets. As fruits contain a lot of sugar that might be a problem if they are eaten constantly. Sugar -> insulin spikes. I always feel hunger after eating fruits, that's why I prefer cooked carbs.
Plus I heard that pancreas produces meat digesting enzyme and if no meat is eaten it start to digest itself.
I think the pancreas digesting itself is one of those very strange rumors that don't make sense. If you don't eat something that necessitates the enzyme the pancreas probably just stops making the enzymes just like if you don't have a whole lot of cancer cells the pancreas isn't going to use up its resources making cancer-killing enzymes en masse.
Also one has to be careful designating organs when one feels pain as pain can be referred or travel along meridian lines. Just like with trigger point therapy one can have something going on in one place with the cause or cure being affected somewhere else sometimes.
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I think the pancreas digesting itself is one of those very strange rumors that don't make sense. If you don't eat something that necessitates the enzyme the pancreas probably just stops making the enzymes just like if you don't have a whole lot of cancer cells the pancreas isn't going to use up its resources making cancer-killing enzymes en masse.
Also one has to be careful designating organs when one feels pain as pain can be referred or travel along meridian lines. Just like with trigger point therapy one can have something going on in one place with the cause or cure being affected somewhere else sometimes.
I don't insist it was pancreas :) The thing is - a lot of fruits and no animal protein or fat is going to damage body in the long run. I think the same is true for a lot of meat and no carbs.
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I don't insist it was pancreas :) The thing is - a lot of fruits and no animal protein or fat is going to damage body in the long run. I think the same is true for a lot of meat and no carbs.
Eating too much fruit sure doesn't work for me either - who cares which organs right Carnivorous? Lots of meat and no carbs super doesn't work for me. I'm still not going to say that neither extreme can never work for anyone - hey - look at how well Lex Rooker is doing!) but it does seem like that middle path you are describing is the best bet for most people taking into consideration what options they have available from reports I've read here and other places. It's a pretty big range though - basically including everything except the most extreme pendulum swings. I think there might be some things that could affect how certain mono diets can affect a person though. Someone eating lots of fruit or all fruit that can't get fruit that ripened on the plant might not have the same effects of someone foraging or eating out of their own organic orchard. In terms of all meat, Lex is eating the whole entire animal which might have a much different effect than eating just muscles or even a portion of the organs.
I know that going out and picking my own fruit right from the tree effects me very differently than store-bought fruits.
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You have indeed been eating a lot of cheese and other dairy, so that is a possible culprit and an elimination test does make sense. What are you going to replace it with, marrow, suet, back fat, tongue, egg yolks, ...?
Will someone summarize for me the reason there is so much emphasis on raw animal fat in this forum? In Cordain's latest book, it appears he cautions against too much animal fat (less than 15% of diet), implying it may lead to heart problems etc..
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Will someone summarize for me the reason there is so much emphasis on raw animal fat in this forum? In Cordain's latest book, it appears he cautions against too much animal fat (less than 15% of diet), implying it may lead to heart problems etc..
That's one of hugest myths. Cooked fat is the worse, but I still don't think it leads to heart problems. I think as regards to heat-created toxins, cooked fat is horrible. But raw fat seems to be our main energy/calorie source.
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Cooked animal fat does indeed have the highest load of heat-created toxins derived from cooking, so is the absolutely worst, unhealthiest type of food to eat. Raw animal fat is, however, the healthiest type of food to eat. Cordain is only referring to cooked animal fat since he is a cooked-palaeodiet guru.
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Raw animal fat is, however, the healthiest type of food to eat.
So cooked animal fat is out. But why is raw animal fat the healthiest? What nutrients does it have?
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So cooked animal fat is out. But why is raw animal fat the healthiest? What nutrients does it have?
It is more concentrated a nutrient than protein or carbs, and with more complex nutrients within it. Raw marrow, for example, has stem-cells in it.
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It is more concentrated a nutrient than protein or carbs, and with more complex nutrients within it. Raw marrow, for example, has stem-cells in it.
Does raw animal fat contain many vitamins and minerals? And what is the benefit of stem-cells?
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Will someone summarize for me the reason there is so much emphasis on raw animal fat in this forum? In Cordain's latest book, it appears he cautions against too much animal fat (less than 15% of diet), implying it may lead to heart problems etc..
Dr. Cordain never recommended keeping all animal fat to less than 15% of a diet. Could it be his early comments on saturated fats that you're referring to?:
This data suggests that the normal dietary intake of saturated fatty acids that conditioned our species genome likely fell between 10 to 15% of total energy, and that values lower than 10% or higher than 15% would have been the exception.
Loren Cordain, Ph.D.
Issue: # 2009 - 16 /April 17, 2009
That is actually higher than the 11% saturated fat that Americans reportedly currently eat (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/04/cordain-on-saturated-fat.html (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/04/cordain-on-saturated-fat.html)).
Plus, Cordain has actually since moderated his tone on saturated fats:
(M)y new advice for you is this: "If you are faithful to the basic principles of the Paleo Diet, consumption of saturated fats within the range of 10 to 15 percent of your daily calories will not increase your risk for heart disease. In fact, the opposite may be true, as new information suggests that elevations in LDL cholesterol may actually reduce systemic inflammation, a potent risk factor for heart disease. Consumption of fatty meats and organs had survival value in an earlier time, because fat provided a lot of energy and organs were rich in nutrients including iron, vitamin A, and the B-vitamins."
~ Loren Cordain, Phd, The Paleo Answer, published Dec 20, 2011
I think it would help further if he replaced his use of the term "lean meats" with something like "quality meats" or "avoid high-heated fats."
As Tyler hinted at, increasingly scientists are coming to recognize that it's excess oxidized LDL in the bloodstream that's the problem in heart disease, not eating saturated fats of all types, and oxidized serum LDL does not come from eating raw or low-cooked saturated fats.
Here's some related info to consider:
More Saturated Fat = Less Coronary Artery Disease!
by Anthony Colpo,
November 9, 2004.
Originally retrieved from LOWCARBPORTAL.COM » Health : Heart/Cholesterol
09 November 2004
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/main-lowcarb-lobby/659922-my-daughter-freaked-me-out-about-sat-fats.html (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/main-lowcarb-lobby/659922-my-daughter-freaked-me-out-about-sat-fats.html)
The latest issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition has just published a study that gives saturated fat-defending heretics like yours truly something to smile about.
Researchers took 235 postmenopausal women with established coronary heart disease and performed coronary angiographies at the start of the study and after a mean follow-up of 3.1 years. A total of 2243 coronary segments were analyzed.
The women were also divided into four categories according to their level of saturated fat intake.
Saturated fats found to be protective
After adjusting for multiple confounders, a higher saturated fat intake was associated with less narrowing of the arteries and less progression of coronary atherosclerosis during follow-up. Compared with a 0.22-mm narrowing in the lowest quartile of intake, there was a 0.10-mm narrowing in the second quartile, a 0.07-mm narrowing in the third quartile, and no narrowing in the fourth and highest quartile of saturated fat intake.
Carbohydrates found to be harmful
The protective association of saturated fat was more pronounced among women with lower monounsaturated fat and higher carbohydrate intakes. Carbohydrate intake was positively associated with atherosclerotic progression, particularly when the glycemic index was high.
Polyunsaturates found to be harmful
Polyunsaturated fat intake was positively associated with progression of atherosclerosis when replacing other fats, but monounsaturated and total fat intakes were not associated with progression.
The bottom line
The authors concluded: "In postmenopausal women with relatively low total fat intake, a greater saturated fat intake is associated with less progression of coronary atherosclerosis, whereas carbohydrate intake is associated with a greater progression".
"Our findings are not consistent with the hypothesis…that saturated fat intake increases atherosclerotic progression in postmenopausal women but instead suggest that saturated fat intake may reduce such progression, especially when monounsaturated fat intake is low or carbohydrate intake is high. Our findings also suggest that carbohydrate intake may increase atherosclerotic progression, especially when refined carbohydrates replace saturated or monounsaturated fats".
Mere association or direct causation?
After examining the baseline data for the study subjects, it becomes apparent that the results can not be explained away by otherwise healthier lifestyles among those eating the most saturated fat; the high saturated fat group, in fact, had the greatest number of current smokers.
Studies like this do not prove causation, but we do know that saturated fatty acids, because of their lack of vulnerable double bonds, are the least susceptible to free radical damage; polyunsaturates are the most vulnerable. We also know that increased carbohydrate consumption, especially of the refined variety, does a sterling job of raising blood sugar and insulin levels, which accelerates glycation, free radical activity, blood clot formation, and arterial smooth muscle cell proliferation.
....
Original source: The Omnivore
19 March 2004
'Healthy' Diet May Increase Bad Cholesterol
Source: Yahoo
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - There is a plethora of evidence suggesting that low-fat diets, particularly those rich in fruits and vegetables are "healthy." However, in a small study of women, a diet low in fat and high in fruits and vegetables caused an increase in the plasma levels of oxidized LDL cholesterol, the "bad" cholesterol.
This finding was unexpected, Dr. Marja-Leena Silaste from the University of Oulu in Finland and colleagues write in Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis. and Vascular Biology: Journal of the American Heart Association....
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While I agree that oxidised animal fats derived from cooking are a problem, it has been mentioned in one study that the real reason for the harm caused by saturated fats was not due to the saturated fats per se, but due to the glycotoxins present in those cooked SFA-rich foods:-
http://www.pnas.org/content/94/12/6474.long (http://www.pnas.org/content/94/12/6474.long)
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Yup, and I'm no expert on AGEs, so maybe it's coincidence, but I do find it interesting that some of the foods highest in reported AGEs are those fatty animal foods that are high heated and/or oxygenated in other ways, such as whipping; apparently especially when the food includes plentiful fats that are easily oxidized, such as omega 6 PUFAs. For example, crispy-fried bacon (conventional bacon tends to be high in omega 6) and whipped pasteurized butter.
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So cooked animal fat is out. But why is raw animal fat the healthiest? What nutrients does it have?
Raw animal fat was a staple for the early humans. Actually ape became a human when it managed to find large mammal carcass and smash its bones with a stone to get bone marrow. Other animals couldn't do this.
Another distinctive feature of our ancestors was their ability to dig for roots with a stick.
So our body evolved to utilize these types of food in the best way possible.
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Right, Cordain is talking about saturated fat under 15%, not total fat of diet.
"Advanced glycation end products (AGEs), also known
as glycotoxins, are a diverse group of highly oxidant
compounds with pathogenic significance in diabetes
and in several other chronic diseases. AGEs are
created through a nonenzymatic reaction between reducing
sugars and free amino groups of proteins, lipids, or
nucleic acids."
http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf (http://marshfieldceliac.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/5/7/2557865/ada_ages_in_food_reduction1.pdf)
Maybe that is the reason coke/coffee/lead contains little AGEs...because they contain little protein/sugar/lipids.
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Does raw animal fat contain many vitamins and minerals? And what is the benefit of stem-cells?
Plenty. I'm not sure re stem-cells utility as these are presumably wholly digested in the stomach.
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Thanks, Tyler.