Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nicola on May 07, 2008, 07:01:17 pm
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How do you get on with digesting protein and fat? I found this:
Saturated fats like meat fat can make the digestion worse because
they are low in the unsaturated fats and provide a basically neutral
environment in the intestines, but actually diluting HCL. In this
instance the intestines can't really ferment the meat and age it yet
the stomach acid is not strong enough to provide a good environment
for oxidating.
Could to little salt be the result of fat and protein found in stools?
I don't use salt and am wondering if this could be unhealthy for the human body and not be ideal even if the meat is raw and the fat is raw?
Nicola
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Well, there've been claims by some zero-carbers that salt is needed. I am sceptical of this as plenty of natural salts are found in meats and blood. Plus, I've had slight negative reactions to salt-intake when I've used it too frequently. I now only use a touch of (sea-)salt on very rare occasions to spice up some meats but that's all.
Re your quotation about saturated fats:- Out of interest, which guru did you get this quotation from? Was it a vegan one? I'm just curious.
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How do you get on with digestin protein and fat? I found this:
Saturated fats like meat fat can make the digestion worse because
they are low in the unsaturated fats and provide a basically neutral
environment in the intestines, but actually diluting HCL. In this
instance the intestines can't really ferment the meat and age it yet
the stomach acid is not strong enough to provide a good environment
for oxidating.
Could to little salt be the result of fat and protein found in stools?
I don't use salt and am wondering if this could be unhealthy for the human body and not be ideal even if the meat is raw and the fat is raw?
Nicola
I'm a little confused. I thought you said on yahoo that fish was even harder for you to digest than beef.
You need chloride to make hydrochloric acid but I never found the chloride part of salt to be a problem for myself. There is about twice as much chloride as there is sodium in NaCl. They are both ions so they separate in liquid. I'm not sure how much Cl meat contains. I've checked the UDSA database and it's not even listed.
Craig
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Well, there've been claims by some zero-carbers that salt is needed. I am sceptical of this as plenty of natural salts are found in meats and blood. Plus, I've had slight negative reactions to salt-intake when I've used it too frequently. I now only use a touch of (sea-)salt on very rare occasions to spice up some meats but that's all.
I know that Andrew and I have said that but we also both sweat a lot. It only takes a pinch of sea salt every few days. If I had a fresh blood source, I don't think I'd need to add any salt at all. If our ancestors had a taste for salt, they'd probably have consumed a little more blood. Also, if I ate more seafood, especially shell fish, I'd probably get the salt I need but it's just so expensive except for the farm raised junk.
I also would like to know where Nicola found that.
Craig
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Re your quotation about saturated fats:- Out of interest, which guru did you get this quotation from? Was it a vegan one? I'm just curious.
[/quote]
No it was not a vega guru.
Nicola
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I'm a little confused. I thought you said on yahoo that fish was even harder for you to digest than beef.
You need chloride to make hydrochloric acid but I never found the chloride part of salt to be a problem for myself. There is about twice as much chloride as there is sodium in NaCl. They are both ions so they separate in liquid. I'm not sure how much Cl meat contains. I've checked the UDSA database and it's not even listed.
Craig
and I am confused too...I have not tryed fish because I now that fish takes long to digest if the fish is oily; what do you mean?
Some say use salt others say that raw meat does not need salt. Chloride is needed for protein (and fat?) digestion. If we need salt with raw meat (the Bear said that salt is not needed with meat), then we need it with all raw meat and every time we eat raw meat - not just every now and then.
This is what Dr. Groves sent me:
Hi Nicola
About saturated fat makes no sense. Whoever wrote it is ignorant of how the
body works.
The acid in the stomach is hydrochloric acid (HCl). It needs a supply of
clorine to replenish it. That chlorine comes in the diet, usually from
salt -- sodium chloride.
In palaeotimes, the blood of animals would have been used. These days
animals are bled. I think you would do well to use salt again.
The difference between people's digestion could be that some eat salt and
some don't.
Regards
Barry Groves, PhD
Author: Natural Health and Weight Loss
Co-producer: Be Slim Without Dieting (Video / DVD)
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk
http://www.diabetes-diet.org.uk
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.org.uk
Dogs don't eat fresh killed on a raw meat diet and don't need extra salt?
Some mention that they find suet / undigested protein in their sools - perhaps this is to do with no eating salt?
Nicola
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and I am confused too...I have not tryed fish because I now that fish takes long to digest if the fish is oily; what do you mean?
Because fish is high in unsaturated fat and you said that digestion of beef fat is difficult because it is low in unsaturated fat. That's what confuses me. ???
Some say use salt others say that raw meat does not need salt. Chloride is needed for protein (and fat?) digestion. If we need salt with raw meat (the Bear said that salt is not needed with meat), then we need it with all raw meat and every time we eat raw meat - not just every now and then.
This is what Dr. Groves sent me:
Hi Nicola
About saturated fat makes no sense. Whoever wrote it is ignorant of how the
body works.
The acid in the stomach is hydrochloric acid (HCl). It needs a supply of
clorine to replenish it. That chlorine comes in the diet, usually from
salt -- sodium chloride.
In palaeotimes, the blood of animals would have been used. These days
animals are bled. I think you would do well to use salt again.
The difference between people's digestion could be that some eat salt and
some don't.
Regards
Barry Groves, PhD
Author: Natural Health and Weight Loss
Co-producer: Be Slim Without Dieting (Video / DVD)
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk
http://www.diabetes-diet.org.uk
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.org.uk
Dogs don't eat fresh killed on a raw meat diet and don't need extra salt?
Some mention that they find suet / undigested protein in their sools - perhaps this is to do with no eating salt?
Nicola
I agree with Dr. Groves about the blood and chlorine but he also doesn't believe that excess salt is a problem.
All you can do is experiment with the different advice you've been given and see what works for you. Please let us know if you do decide on any experiments. They'd fit nicely into the Lab Rats forum.
Craig
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Because fish is high in unsaturated fat and you said that digestion of beef fat is difficult because it is low in unsaturated fat. That's what confuses me. ???
I agree with Dr. Groves about the blood and chlorine but he also doesn't believe that excess salt is a problem.
All you can do is experiment with the different advice you've been given and see what works for you. Please let us know if you do decide on any experiments. They'd fit nicely into the Lab Rats forum.
Craig
Craig, I didn't say that about fat and digestion was from me; that was posted on yahoo group.
I don't like to experiment as our mind can play tricks...salty tricks? No one is drinking ionized water - this water gives me like "high energy". Some say they drink no more than 4dl of "normal" water (on a high fat and protein diet) - perhaps I am drinking too much water? Some don't use salt (Lex) others think they need salt. I find undigested fat in my stool others say they bolt down tough and fat and digestion is "clean".
I found this when I googled:
Prehistoric man obtained salt from the meat of hunted animals. When man developed agriculture, salt was added to supplement the vegetable and cereal diet and the quest of salt became a primary motivation in history.
Any additional opinions ????
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Craig, I didn't say that about fat and digestion was from me; that was posted on yahoo group.
I don't like to experiment as our mind can play tricks...salty tricks? No one is drinking ionized water - this water gives me like "high energy". Some say they drink no more than 4dl of "normal" water (on a high fat and protein diet) - perhaps I am drinking too much water? Some don't use salt (Lex) others think they need salt. I find undigested fat in my stool others say they bolt down tough and fat and digestion is "clean".
I found this when I googled:
Prehistoric man obtained salt from the meat of hunted animals. When man developed agriculture, salt was added to supplement the vegetable and cereal diet and the quest of salt became a primary motivation in history.
Any additional opinions ????
Do you still have your gall bladder? If you do, maybe you aren't producing enough bile. Bile is needed to emulsify the fat so that it can be absorbed properly but the undigested gristle does sound like you may have low hydrochloric acid in your stomach.
Prehistoric man had access to the whole animal and the meat would have been bloody so, I don't doubt that at all.
Craig
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Do you still have your gall bladder? If you do, maybe you aren't producing enough bile. Bile is needed to emulsify the fat so that it can be absorbed properly but the undigested gristle does sound like you may have low hydrochloric acid in your stomach.
Prehistoric man had access to the whole animal and the meat would have been bloody so, I don't doubt that at all.
Craig
I have all intact (organs).
I am eating beef; I ride all the way to Germany (Waldshut) for Argentine beef (they are skiny); it has a wild tast, not like farmed beef in Europa (with manure sprayed on the feelds...)
The mutton leg is bloody too (not like lamb). The organs are bloody. And I am trying my bloody best :'(.
Nicola
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http://www.eletewater.com/elpdf/chloride_meletis.pdf
I wonder now how dogs and other animals eating raw meat digest; the raw meat they get is not always fresh kill with a lot of blood.
What about those humans that eat pemmican; that is lean sun-dried meat and rendered fat - no extra salt?
Nicola
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http://www.eletewater.com/elpdf/chloride_meletis.pdf
I wonder now how dogs and other animals eating raw meat digest; the raw meat they get is not always fresh kill with a lot of blood.
What about those humans that eat pemmican; that is lean sun-dried meat and rendered fat - no extra salt?
Nicola
Salt actually becomes more concentrated in sun-dried meat so it's not lost as the water evaporates. it'll make you thirstier and you'll want to drink more water.
As for dogs and other animals, the same would apply. As the dead animal dried out, all the minerals, including salt, would become more concentrated as they don't evaporate along with the water in the blood.
The problem really seems to boil down to (pun intended) the bleeding of animals by modern slaughterers.
Craig
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Betaine is a source of hydrochloric acid (HCL), an acid found in digestiv juices that's involved in the production of the enzyme pepsin.
There are no food sources of betaine hydrochloride and it's not an essential nutrient.
HCL converts pepsinogen to pepsin, an enzyme that breaks down protein. As people age, HCL secretion may be reduced which means decreased levels of pepsin.
Betaine HCL is not the same as hydrochloric acid to aid digestion.
Hydrochloric acid is the water-based solution of (HCI) hydrogenchloride gas. It is a strong acid, the major component of gastric acid.
The body makes Betain from Cholin (found in raw! meat, liver, egg). Cholin is reduced by estrogen, suger, alcohol.
All the information I can find is not based on a raw meat and fat diet / paleo diet. No mention of how carnivore animals make hydrogenchloride gas with out extra salt.
Nicola
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I'd love to investigate this further but I've had a late work night tonight and an early workday tomorrow. I've never had a problem with stomach acid so I only am familiar with the sodium part of the equation. I'll research betain and choline tomorrow (Sunday night) and give you my take.
I don't think carnivorous animals need "extra" salt but as someone else mentioned, some do seek it out - vegetarian animals as I recall.
Craig
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http://www.paleodietonline.com/2008/01/digestion-is-key-to-health-part-2.html
Why don't they mention salt?
Nicola
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http://www.paleodietonline.com/2008/01/digestion-is-key-to-health-part-2.html
Why don't they mention salt?
Nicola
Probably because they aren't talking about a deficiency but rather a stomach that's been so over-worked that it's lost the ability to produce hydrochloric acid. Like a type two diabetic, they don't have a deficiency that impairs insulin production. It's that their islet cells are so over-worked that their beta cells begin to die.
With the stomach situation, it might also be a vicious cycle - not being able to digest food in order to get what's needed to be able to digest that food.
Craig
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Hi Nicola
I am group A as well. But as the whole "different blood group/different diet" thing is nonsense, let's not go off-track into the nonsensical.
Your body needs both chlorine and sodium, which it can only get from what you eat. it doesn't matter which foods you eat to get them, but if the food you eat doesn't contain them, then you have to eat something like salt which does.
Pretty much all meats and other animal products contain sodium and chlorine in the form of sodium chloride (salt). In a temperate climate such as most of us live in, we only need abour 3 grams of salt a day but, as this much can be lost in about 2 hours of sweating on a warm day, in a hotter climate we may need much more as the amount is directly related to water requirements - sweat more, lose more, need to eat more. In this respect we are all different.
Most common indicator of sodium ideficiency is muscle cramps. let your body be your guide.
Barry Groves, PhD
Author: Natural Health and Weight Loss
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Francis Pottenger mentioned that gelatin is a hydrophilic colloid,
which means that it attracts and holds liquids, it facilitates
digestion by attracting digestive juices to food in the gut.
http://wss.nourishingconnections.org/Education/Broth.pdf
Well Lex has ground bones in his mix of beef and dog&cat - this may
help digestion of protein.
Do you eat bones?
So it is not just salt for stomach acid - now we need gelatin too!
Nicola
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Francis Pottenger mentioned that gelatin is a hydrophilic colloid,
which means that it attracts and holds liquids, it facilitates
digestion by attracting digestive juices to food in the gut.
http://wss.nourishingconnections.org/Education/Broth.pdf
Well Lex has ground bones in his mix of beef and dog&cat - this may
help digestion of protein.
Do you eat bones?
So it is not just salt for stomach acid - now we need gelatin too!
Nicola
I don't eat bones. Every once in a while, I'll find a bone fragment in my ground food but I don't know if it gets digested. Are you thinking of adding bone broth to your diet?
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I tend to have some muscle cramps in addition to my poor protein/fat digestive ability. As I only eat raw meat, I may need to add salt to my diet, but I really don't like the taste!
Chewing is also very important for proper digestion.
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0203CAT/fletcher.pdf
Hi Nicola
I am group A as well. But as the whole "different blood group/different diet" thing is nonsense, let's not go off-track into the nonsensical.
Your body needs both chlorine and sodium, which it can only get from what you eat. it doesn't matter which foods you eat to get them, but if the food you eat doesn't contain them, then you have to eat something like salt which does.
Pretty much all meats and other animal products contain sodium and chlorine in the form of sodium chloride (salt). In a temperate climate such as most of us live in, we only need abour 3 grams of salt a day but, as this much can be lost in about 2 hours of sweating on a warm day, in a hotter climate we may need much more as the amount is directly related to water requirements - sweat more, lose more, need to eat more. In this respect we are all different.
Most common indicator of sodium ideficiency is muscle cramps. let your body be your guide.
Barry Groves, PhD
Author: Natural Health and Weight Loss
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Carnivore why run away from your bodys signals - it's health you want isn't it?
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/salt.htm
http://www.t-nation.com/article/diet_and_nutrition/sodium_your_secret_weapon&cr=dietAndNutrition
Look I don't "need" salt for taste but the body needs salt for so many reasons - and if it takes a little salt to balance the bodys needs then...
Nicola
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Don't worry about it , Nicola! As barry mentioned, there's plenty of salts in raw meats.
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I don't eat bones. Every once in a while, I'll find a bone fragment in my ground food but I don't know if it gets digested. Are you thinking of adding bone broth to your diet?
No, broth would not be raw paleo - I used to believe in broth when I was eating cooked meat but I can not say if I felt any better with broth; just more stress!
I thought Lex mentioned ground bone in his dog&cat?
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Don't worry about it , Nicola! As barry mentioned, there's plenty of salts in raw meats.
Well I don't know, wouldn't you worry if raw meat gave you loose stooles and little bits of undigested fat? Barry also mentioned that salt is needed with raw meat because it is not fresh kill with lots of blood. Of course Barry's digestion is perfect eating cooked meat - but then again what is perfect?
Lex mentioned:
I've found that adding just a bit of salt is important or I start to get leg cramps and other strange symptoms. I usually add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon (3g-5g) of salt to 4 lbs (2kg) of my normal meat mixture.
His meat is quite bloody. I don't know what I am missing - but why are some adding salt and others not - some having normal stools and some not - some have other strange symptoms and some not? How do we know that what we think is the way things are - perhaps many are have putrefying (salt has to do with stomach acid and other parts of digestion) digestion and don't know!
Why is your digestion perfect ???? Why is AV against salt? Why does he recommend grain fed meat? I don't get the storey!
I did try, for the first time to eat all my beef (I have never been able to - I always chewed and spat out every mouth full) because I was eating a little salt. Yesterday I had some mutton leg and this was so tough I just could not deel with it (this mutton must have been as old as the hills) - that was not a very pleasing meal >:(.
Nicola
Nicola
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Well I don't know, wouldn't you worry if raw meat gave you loose stooles and little bits of undigested fat? Barry also mentioned that salt is needed with raw meat because it is not fresh kill with lots of blood. Of course Barry's digestion is perfect eating cooked meat - but then again what is perfect?
Lex mentioned:
I've found that adding just a bit of salt is important or I start to get leg cramps and other strange symptoms. I usually add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon (3g-5g) of salt to 4 lbs (2kg) of my normal meat mixture.
His meat is quite bloody. I don't know what I am missing - but why are some adding salt and others not - some having normal stools and some not - some have other strange symptoms and some not? How do we know that what we think is the way things are - perhaps many are have putrefying (salt has to do with stomach acid and other parts of digestion) digestion and don't know!
Why is your digestion perfect ???? Why is AV against salt? Why does he recommend grain fed meat? I don't get the storey!
I did try, for the first time to eat all my beef (I have never been able to - I always chewed and spat out every mouth full) because I was eating a little salt. Yesterday I had some mutton leg and this was so tough I just could not deel with it (this mutton must have been as old as the hills) - that was not a very pleasing meal >:(.
Nicola
Nicola
Most peoples' digestion is perfect on a raw-animal-food diet unless their digestion is somehow permanently damaged from years of eating cooked-foods - I'm not therefore the exception but the rule. I had horrible digestion with cooked-animal food, pre-raw diet, despite having lots of salt in my food at the time, so I know that salt isn't needed.
As for AV recommending grainfed meat, he's sorely misguided. Not only is the vast majority of grainfed meat raised intensively in factory-farm conditions, but even organic, grainfed meat is bad for you(by comparison to grassfed). I think the reason why he doesn't recommend grassfed is possibly because some Primal dieters find it too difficult to get hold of grassfed meat, so he allows grainfed meat as well. Plus, Aajonus seems to be more focused on the benefits of raw animal fat, and considers it superior, even if grainfed, to cooked animal fat. However, based on mine and others' experience, I think it's obvious that high-quality nutrients (from grassfed animals) are just as important as the issue of whether a meat is raw or cooked.
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Himalayan salt tastes good for me!
Thank's for the help Nicola!
Frederic
Carnivore why run away from your bodys signals - it's health you want isn't it?
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/salt.htm
http://www.t-nation.com/article/diet_and_nutrition/sodium_your_secret_weapon&cr=dietAndNutrition
Look I don't "need" salt for taste but the body needs salt for so many reasons - and if it takes a little salt to balance the bodys needs then...
Nicola
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Lex mentioned:
I've found that adding just a bit of salt is important or I start to get leg cramps and other strange symptoms. I usually add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon (3g-5g) of salt to 4 lbs (2kg) of my normal meat mixture.
I must have overlooked that tidbit! When did he say that? When I started the first time, I added salt and spices to help with the taste since I was following his diet. When I got used to the taste I stopped adding everything, including salt. That's when my problems started and it took a lot of research before I eventually nailed it down to salt. I wasn't as vocal in the group about it as you are until I figured it out.
Craig
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I must have overlooked that tidbit! When did he say that? When I started the first time, I added salt and spices to help with the taste since I was following his diet. When I got used to the taste I stopped adding everything, including salt. That's when my problems started and it took a lot of research before I eventually nailed it down to salt. I wasn't as vocal in the group about it as you are until I figured it out.
Craig
Craig, I asked him upon your welcoming him to this forum. I can rember asking him last year - I have been on this salt mania for a long time - and he then answered, that he had never thought about salt (perhaps I missunderstood; I looked for it on the yahoo group but it's hard to find old answers). I am shore many have "little" problems and just don't track them...or perhaps I am a mania?
Nicola
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Found this on my maniac tour:
The Beat:
Salt is an addiction. It is culturally induced induced by the need to
add some salt for flavour in vegetables. When I gave up salt, the
only food that I ate which seemed to need salt was eggs, but after a
few years this passed- unsalted butter made the difference- without
that added fat eggs are definitely very bland. Take care to only buy
and use unsalted butter. Salt in butter is there as a preservative,
thus the level is very high. Unsalted butter is a bit more expensive
because only very fresh cream can be used to make it, whereas soured
cream, neutralised with soda is used to make 'regular' butter that is
then preserved with salt. The very best and tastiest butter possible
is made at home by shaking pure cream, and separating the resulting
delicious near-white butter from the whey.
Taking in more salt than you body needs is very, very bad for you. If
your sweat tastes salty, you have too much intake. Both the skin and
the kidneys dump salt, but cannot 'change gears' quickly. Both organs
are affected by passing salt. The salt content of sweat and urine can
go down to a few parts per million, to conserve the saline balance of
the bodies tissues. It only takes about one ounce of any meat/day to
supply all the sodium your body requires. for normal saline balance.
I sometimes sweat so proficiently that I need to drink 3 or four
litres of water in less than an hour. I have no effects of low salt,
and my sweat is never salty. I used to watch the other kids in ballet
class scarfing slat tabs, while I just drank water, my shirt was very
wet, but dried out normal but theirs were rimed with a heavy white
salt crust,indicating that the massive excess of alt was simply being
dumped. If they did not eat the salt tabs when drinking water, they
fainted.
If addicted to salt, just like with any other addiction, when you
stop using, you will experience 'side effects', such as everything
suddenly seeming tasteless and bland. If you persist, salt becomes
vile-tasting, and food without salt very tasty (but not (sodium-
deficient) veggies-tasteless by nature, but which we are not talking
about here).
It takes several days for your body to stop dumping salt through the
skin and kidneys and begin conserving it, so when quitting, be aware
of your salt balance- you may experience light headed-ness and the
other classic signs of low sodium, if necessary take a tiny pinch-
but try to stop all salt as quickly as you can tolerate it. Salt was
a significant cause of my grandfather's demise at 91 from kidney
failure. I consider it a chemical poison. Only vegetarians have a
salt-deficiency in their diet.
Our taste buds are important early warning detectors of the nature of
things taken into the mouth. The bitter taste sense, for instance
does not mean that we were destined by nature to like or need Swedish
Bitters, it is there to warn you of alkaloids in plants, common
defensive chemicals which can be very fatal. Likewise, sweet, salt
and sour are not indicators of what you should be taught to like as
food, they are there so you can measure and test- some food may have
gone bad, if it is sour- milk for instance. Taste buds are simply
chemical detectors which every animal has, and are generic in
response- not indicators to any specific food liking, that is learned
behaviour- cued by taste (and smell). Most of what we view as the
taste of something is mostly the smell.
Salt is a simple chemical, sodium chloride, a mineral substance mined
from where it has been deposited from weathered rocks or pools of
seawater. It can be found contaminated with a wide variety of
additional compounds, depending on the source it is derived from.
Some kinds may also be toxic- as well as unhealthful, as is pure salt
in all its forms. Human commerce in salt began with the use of
vegetation as a major item of human food. Only herbivorous animals
will seek out and consume salt- because sodium is lacking in all
terrestrial plant tissues. Carnivores do not need any salt. Your
taste for salt on meat is learned behaviour only.
And this:
sodium in the body is controled by a negative feedback system using the hormones aldosterone as well as other hormones that I do not want to get into at the moment. To make this simple, when you ingest sodium or salt your body inhibits the release of aldosterone and you will excrete more sodium in the urine. Aldosterone promotes sodium reabsorbtion. So if you use salt in your diet and you go a long period of time without it, your body will crave more because you have exreted alot of it in your urine due to the lack of aldosterone. On the other hand if you do not use alot of salt in your diet your adrenals will secrete more aldosterone thus conserving the amount of salt that gets exreted in the urine. If you add salt to your diet at this point in time when aldosterone is high (caused from long periods of low salt intake) you will get edema or water retention in some areas of the body. Continue to eat more salt and the body's negative feedback system will kick in and will inhibit aldosterone becuase the body does not need to conserve salt since it is getting high quantities of it. Now since your body has reduced its aldosterone levels it can handle more salt from the diet because it is being excreted quicker from the body from the inhibition of this hormone.
I personally believe we should not use any salt in our diet and I strongly agree with Bear on this one. I believe once you go long periods of time without using salt your body will adapt and you will feel alot better. Its just like with restricting carbs. You have to restrict them and wait for the adaptation period to kick in so your body will normalize. The Yanomami South American tribe has a super low amount of sodium in their diet (which consits of meat and large amounts of vegtables) and they have the lowest blood pressures on the planet from what I have read.
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I agree re salt being useless. But, actually, the argument re needing salt for vegetables is absurd. The main use of salt, throughout history, has been to preserve raw meats, something that was essential in eras before fridges were invented. Salt has also been particularly useful as regards covering up the lack of taste of cooked-foods in general, especially cooked meats, which is why salt was used so much when cooking foods. Once you go raw, salt becomes unnecessary.
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How can you explain some of the trouble people are having? What about the abnormal digestion of a member on your yahoo group? - that is worrying.
I would love to believe you - as I said; I don't need salt for tast, I am just in a darn :( >:( ??? :-\ about protein and fat digestion - which begins with our stomach acid, which the body must be able to produce so that we don't have putrefaction (with undigested food...) and many other "abnormal" signals.
Amen.
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How can you explain some of the trouble people are having? What about the abnormal digestion of "ecohe23" on your yahoo group? - that is worrying.
I would love to believe you - as I said; I don't need salt for tast, I am just in a darn :( >:( ??? :-\ about protein and fat digestion - which begins with our stomach acid, which the body must be able to produce so that we don't have putrefaction (with undigested food...) and many other "abnormal" signals.
Amen.
I believe ecohe has unique health-issues re histamine, among other details. In my own case, I've already long since recovered from past ill-health on cooked-food diets, so I'm not really bothered about issues like salt etc. My only concern is to get hold of plenty of raw wild meats, raw seafood etc., and that's all I need.
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Craig, I asked him upon your welcoming him to this forum. I can rember asking him last year - I have been on this salt mania for a long time - and he then answered, that he had never thought about salt (perhaps I missunderstood; I looked for it on the yahoo group but it's hard to find old answers). I am shore many have "little" problems and just don't track them...or perhaps I am a mania?
Nicola
I do remember Lex stating that recently in his intro thread but I either didn't see his previous mention of it last year or I didn't think it was an important detail to remember. It's okay to be a maniac! I did the same thing when when people would say that they needed carbs to feel good. I also did it when I started getting symptoms of salt deficiency. At the time, there was a discussion about purines possibly being the cause. As you probably already know, I fell off the diet thinking I needed to go omni. That was the beginning of the end for me the first time around. I SHOULD have been asking questions to the group but I didn't. I did however keep searching for the symptoms I had had and found that salt deficiency was the root cause and also that it takes time for the body to adjust to a low salt intake.
My digestion was never compromised (except at the very beginning form eating way too much!) but my hydration was compromised. The first time, It was summer when I started. I added salt and spices as Lex said he did when starting. I didn't make the connection then but when I stopped adding anything to my food is when I started getting symptoms. When I started back in the fall, when it was cooler, I was able to go quite a while without salt and symptoms until the weather started warming up and I started sweating. Then I found I really craved the salt in my meat. So, from past experience, rather than eat twice as much meat to get the salt, I just started adding a little, and I mean a little bit of sea salt to my meals every two or three days. That took care of the cravings. Had I eaten all the meat that it would have taken to satisfy the craving, I probably would have had digestive problems as I did when I started the diet the first time, when I was eating way too much.
I was VERY surprised by how much people ate when I posed that question on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group. People were eating two or three times as much as me and were 1/2 to 3/4 my weight and I'm VERY active by vocation and by choice. That's why I asked you if you were eating too much. Kristelle has gone through the fast but she was also eating a lot beforehand so maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with eating more to satisfy the need for salt. But, on the other hand, neither of you seem to crave salt.
Craig
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Why is your digestion perfect ???? Why is AV against salt? Why does he recommend grain fed meat? I don't get the storey!
Nicola
By the way, Nicola, I should make a correction. It seems that Aajonus is, at least, these days, not in favour of grainfed meat as such. I checked with the Primal Diet Yahoo Group, and one of them who actually knows Aajonus informed me that Aajonus had told them that he views grassfed organic raw meat as being the best meat with raw grainfed meat coming a distant second, with anything cooked, regardless of whether it's grassfed or grainfed, being considered as something to be avoided. So he doesn't recommend raw grainfed meat as such, it's just that he views it as better than cooked meat.
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TylerDurden
I have been eating all tough, connective gristle; swallowing all parts of the leg of mutton - like you claim to do. You say that this gets digested? I find it adds to the stool - like fiber!!!
Some of the suet goes threw as well. I wonder how many carnivores eat other tough meat than beef (one can eat tender meat and say this diet works - eat soft fat and say it all gets digested...).
We live from what get's digested and not from what adds to the stool - perhaps raw carnivores don't put on weight because of this?
What about cramps in the foot (I have a very little one some times in bed) - does this ever happen to others? Salt does not seem to help digest or perhaps this needs a long time to happen? Perhaps I am to alkaline (this water I am drinking?).
I feel eating all the tough is extra work for the body - my weight is kind of a bit down.
We need to talk about other meat and parts of animals - beef does not give a clear picture.
Nicola
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TylerDurden
I have been eating all tough, connective gristle; swallowing all parts of the leg of mutton - like you claim to do. You say that this gets digested? I find it adds to the stool - like fiber!!!
Some of the suet goes threw as well. I wonder how many carnivores eat other tough meat than beef (one can eat tender meat and say this diet works - eat soft fat and say it all gets digested...).
We live from what get's digested and not from what adds to the stool - perhaps raw carnivores don't put on weight because of this?
What about cramps in the foot (I have a very little one some times in bed) - does this ever happen to others? Salt does not seem to help digest or perhaps this needs a long time to happen? Perhaps I am to alkaline (this water I am drinking?).
I feel eating all the tough is extra work for the body - my weight is kind of a bit down.
We need to talk about other meat and parts of animals - beef does not give a clear picture.
Nicola
If the suet you're getting doesn't work, then either buy suet from a different (grassfed) source, or buy different kinds of fat, such as marrow. I've never had any problems with marrow. And you don't have to eat all the gristle if you don't want to.
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For me, I simply can't digest tough meat : too difficult to chew. It stays in the stomach for hours, and I evacuate it in my stools.
Marrow is by far the best fat I can eat. Better than butter, without the drawbacks. But bone does not contain a lot of fat! Our ancestors had to be really strong to open them without a saw.
I also find any hard fat difficult to digest.
As a butcher, I have access to the entire carcass of pork, lamb, beef and poultry (chicken, goose, duck). Bone marrow, liver, heart, brain, and some particular fat (fat around the kidney of pork, fat under the skin of lamb, etc.) are my favourite. Today, I eat some half dried lamb kidney and that was salty and delicious.
My leg cramps are still present, with or without salt.
I wonder if one can find all the necessary nutrients one needs in land animals. We probably need some nutrients in wild seafood that we can't find in domesticated animals. I have much more energy since I ate oysters yesterday.
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Cramps can be a sign of magnesium deficiency. You might want to see if eating raw pumpkin seeds does the trick. Of course, avoiding dairy helps too, given the excess calcium in it.
I truly envy your job. It seems the only people who have it easy on this diet are farmers, butchers and the like, as they are much closer to the food-source. Here in the UK< draconian restrictions forced through by the government and the EU really restrict our freedom of choice as regards obtaining the right foods.
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In France, we can't get the brain and the spinal cord of beef from the slaughterhouse. These are the most precious part of the animal!
Sometimes, we kill for us our own pork and lamb (beef is too huge!). In secret of course.
I choose to work in a farm partly because I want to know what I eat!
Magnesium supplementation has never do anything for my cramps.
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I'm very lucky in that I'm able to get hold of raw brains from time to time, despite the UK's banning of the sale of brain and spinal cord. I mean, it's ridiculous, if we want to eat a certain food, we should be allowed to do so.
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I get cramps in my neck/jaw and legs, I get bad cramps after surfing long hours. Although cramps when I'm surfing mean get out you've had enough.
Cramps have lessoned for me but still there...cramps are a hard one, I tried the no dairy, pumpkin seeds, magnesium supplements route. I feel adding blood helps me, I would like to add more, i think more blood is going to be good for me!
Bloody is very salty, maybe this is the answer. Cramps are linked to lactic acid so more minerals means less acid right? ???
Being a butcher this would allow you to get access to blood, I would love to hear from you if you can add blood to your diet and if this helps your cramps.
Andrew
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Regarding "ecohe23", she has a unique condition. She says she has had a hysterectomy. I think we have to discuss missing internal organs and special disabilities and current diseases people are trying to solve.
As for my digestion of fats and meats, my contribution is I try to eat animal foods only 1 meal a day. The rest of the day I just graze on fruits like papaya (helps digest), pineapples (helps digest), coconuts for the juice and the fats in the meats.
I also do not bother buying tough meats. I just buy the tender stuff. I want to enjoy my food. sirloin, top round, liver, kidneys... all tender.
So far so good.
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Regarding "ecohe23", she has a unique condition. She says she has had a hysterectomy. I think we have to discuss missing internal organs and special disabilities and current diseases people are trying to solve.
Oh yes, this is a major, major consideration. Not only are organs removed in a hysterectomy, but the ability to produce hormones and such changes the body a tremendous amount. Intestinal displacement can result among many other problems.
I mainly eat tender cuts. Didn't the natives even recently go in for the tender organs and muscles, throwing the rest to the dogs?
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Dear Members,
Please refrain from discussing personal issues of members from other forums or groups who aren't members here. It can be confusing to our members who aren't also members of those other groups or forums.
To quote our registration agreement:
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is...invasive of a person's privacy.
A discussion of a personal nature is fine so long as the person is a member here and has posted such info for our members to see otherwise those discussions are better left where they originated.
Also fine is to quote posts of an informational, non-personal nature so long as the source and author are cited.
Regards,
Craig
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Cramps can be a sign of magnesium deficiency. You might want to see if eating raw pumpkin seeds does the trick. Of course, avoiding dairy helps too, given the excess calcium in it.
Lex:
I've found that adding just a bit of salt is important or I start to get leg cramps and other strange symptoms. I usually add about 1/2 to 1 teaspoon (3g-5g) of salt to 4 lbs (2kg) of my normal meat mixture.
There's a lot of debate about salt. It's documented that many Indian tribes - especially in South America - would make regular trips to the ocean to get salt. The traditional Inuits also prepared their meals with, and drank brackish water which contains a low concentration of salt. Most of the African tribes consume large amounts of blood as a staple which contains most of the salt in an animal's body.
Our modern meat processing plants remove the animal's blood so we lose that source of salt. I'm also not so sure that paleo humans didn't consume salt if it was available. Almost all animals will use a saltlick, or lick salt rich soil if it is available. It appears that we need at least some source of sodium chloride in our diets.
Compared to most people I don't get much salt. Based on what I add, it's only about 1 1/2 to 2 grams per day.
Pumpkin seeds? I would tell Lex to add pumpkin seeds to his mix; he might poke his GI system with them and cause a little trouble...but as long as they are raw that will not happen???
Nicola
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For me, I simply can't digest tough meat : too difficult to chew. It stays in the stomach for hours, and I evacuate it in my stools.
I can eat lots of my mutton leg and I did it like a carnivore but that is never all digested; Geoff are you shore that you digest all? Lex mentioned that this did not work with him and he reported about animals poos having "fiber" in them.
Carnivore your cramps are just part of the whole picture - you should be able to get fresh blood instead of extra salt.
I have been eating aged kidney; it tastes salty but I don't know if this is any good?
Nicola
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I digest suet provided it's of good quality. No problems with the other stuff. I love aged kidney.
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If the suet you're getting doesn't work, then either buy suet from a different (grassfed) source, or buy different kinds of fat, such as marrow. I've never had any problems with marrow. And you don't have to eat all the gristle if you don't want to.
You have told me this before - so you think my body is playing tricks with me and will not digest it all because...perhaps if I ask Grandad (97 years old) to send me some English suet then I will not find any bits in my stool any more! With marrow this can happen too.
I am eating the gristle because you clamed that it gets digested - I, Carnivore, Andrew and ...put words in to pratice and the result is ???
The problem is, I don't wan't to believe that I am banging my head against a brick wall - like if I practice, then my body will get the message!
Nicola
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If you don't like the gristle, don't eat it. I love the stuff, and I have no problems with it. Everyone is different.
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Lex connected his leg cramps (in the night) and other problems to lack of salt; by adding extra salt to his meat mix things got better.
I have asked others - some of them eat extra salt and still have leg cramps. I googled and can not find a clear answer; they are all not built up on a paleo diet of meat and fat...
The following answer regarding "salt" is from a person on meat and fat with problems (IBS...) and also complains of diarrhea / protein and fat not getting digested (he does not eat completely raw and has only just started with beef and suet; before he was eating dairy and eggs/chicken):
Yes, I do react to salt with emotional anxiety if I overdo it, so I limit it, but still use it to help support my adrenals and also to ensure I have adequate chloride to produce HCl in the stomach since I do not drink the raw blood of animals (which usually provides a rich source of chloride).
It also helps to stimulate HCl production. A lot of my digestive issues stem from low-HCl and incomplete food breakdown. I often notice small chunks of undigested food in my stool, which indicate things aren't breaking down completely I try supplemental HCl, but too much irritates my delicate gastric and intestinal mucosal lining.
I do not react with cramping or water retention from the salt I use because it comes with a myriad of other naturally occurring trace minerals and is not refined in any way. There is a big difference between refined and processed table salts and the natural ones I use which are 1) not processed or heated in any way, thus preserving their molecular structure/integrity, and 2) come with a high quality compliment of naturally occurring trace minerals that balance the sodium and chloride.
Well I think a few or a lot have problems and do not track them down: all our bodys need to produce stomach acid and many don't drink blood...some add salt others don't need or the mind will not let them. Many say they don't have problems with digestion with or with out salt but they do have cramps or other problems.
Perhaps other carnivores can relate...with and with out salt?
Craig, I thought the heart would beat more with extra salt - more pressure - water retention. If you didn't sweat...would you still add extra salt? Did you go for a period with out salt vs. with salt? How do you get on with water retention? Why is salt good for the adrenals - I thought more pressure would influence the adrenals in a negative way?
We have a member who lives on the Philippines; he must sweat and does not eat salt - perhaps his children don't get any extra salt as well?
It is hard to get a clear picture - the body gives messages and we don't understand or just ignore them.
Minerals are more interesting than carbs (to me); minerals are whats left of the body when we are no more!
Nicola
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I get some of the connective tissue of suet in my stools. It's made out of some arrangement of sugars. I really doubt many people can digest it even with a fully functioning HCL production.
So...some doesn't get digested, me too, it's connective tissue and is quite strong, there's no nutrients in it anyway. Why would the body digest something when there are no nutrients in it??? now i'm the one confused...
Andrew
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Humans produce a digestive enzyme called elastase, which breaks down elastin (connective tissue). Could it be that your pancreases were damaged from cooked food?
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Craig, I thought the heart would beat more with extra salt - more pressure - water retention. If you didn't sweat...would you still add extra salt? Did you go for a period with out salt vs. with salt? How do you get on with water retention? Why is salt good for the adrenals - I thought more pressure would influence the adrenals in a negative way?
We have a member who lives on the Philippines; he must sweat and does not eat salt - perhaps his children don't get any extra salt as well?
It is hard to get a clear picture - the body gives messages and we don't understand or just ignore them.
Minerals are more interesting than carbs (to me); minerals are whats left of the body when we are no more!
Nicola
Nicola,
It seems like heart-rate would go down to me too. One of the symptoms of sodium deficiency is heart palpitations and I thought I read somewhere that rapid heart-rate was also but perhaps I was confusing the two. Do heart palpitations feel like a rapid heart-beat?
I needed hardly any salt at all this past winter. Only when it started warming up did I feel the need for it.
I know people from Manila and they say it's actually hotter here in the summer. Even in the summer though, I don't think I'd need supplemental salt if I didn't do manual labor. I'm pretty well heat-adapted and don't sweat merely because it's hot outside. I have to be doing something physical to sweat.
Craig
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Achloridia / thyroid / iodine
Good digestion, health and iodine...
http://www.quackcenter.com/ideficiency.html
Paleo carnivores ate organs - they did not all have access to fish/seafood.
Many eating meat and fat talk about eating xxx lb of beef - how can they be getting iodine? They also say that digestion is no problem, with or with out salt.
Nicola
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This is interesting:
http://www.coconutstudio.com/Iodine.htm
Nicola
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I get some of the connective tissue of suet in my stools. It's made out of some arrangement of sugars. I really doubt many people can digest it even with a fully functioning HCL production.
So...some doesn't get digested, me too, it's connective tissue and is quite strong, there's no nutrients in it anyway. Why would the body digest something when there are no nutrients in it??? now i'm the one confused...
Andrew
i kind of take an eastern nutritional approach on things like this, "Like Treats Like", so eating/digesting connective tissue would be good for your connective tissue, at least in a "building blocks" sorta way.
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Thyroid (interesting, but not into the coconut oil):
http://coconutdiet.com/thyroid_health.htm
I wonder if iodine is stored in body fat, then animal fat should have iodine?
Nicola
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"Fatigue — An underactive thyroid typically causes fatigue. Iodine supplementation can quickly activate the thyroid and relieve fatigue. Dr Abraham reports iodine deficiency may harm pituitary-adrenal function in rodents. Your adrenal is essential for energy and stamina."
That is interesting.
Seafood contains a lot of iodine and I can atest that oysters give me a lot of energy!
I may be iodine deficient ?
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Kelp for Iodine, and it tastes good too.
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Kelp for Iodine, and it tastes good too.
If your raw paleo approach works - what do you eat, how much and how many times a day? How old are you, weight, how long have you been eating this way and how much do you exercise a day?
Sorry, but it's difficult to understand a person with out the full picture.
Nicola
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Kelp for Iodine, and it tastes good too.
Does kelp have to be boiled? Can't I soak it for a long time instead? I always rinse it first. You know, I buy shredded kombu, it's like pasta. I have been putting it in bone broths, but 1) I am all raw right now, and 2) it's too hot for hot soup. Can't I soak without cooking and eat? I think - no, I know - iodine deficiency is a big problem. And if it is not in the soil or feed of your land animals, you may become deficient. Natural is probably best, but the source is important and I have read seaweed can carry arsenic and bromides, cmiiw.
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Does kelp have to be boiled? Can't I soak it for a long time instead? I always rinse it first. You know, I buy shredded kombu, it's like pasta. I have been putting it in bone broths, but 1) I am all raw right now, and 2) it's too hot for hot soup. Can't I soak without cooking and eat? I think - no, I know - iodine deficiency is a big problem. And if it is not in the soil or feed of your land animals, you may become deficient. Natural is probably best, but the source is important and I have read seaweed can carry arsenic and bromides, cmiiw.
I can't remember the type of seaweed it was but I'd soak it overnight when I was a raw vegan and it came out fine. I don't think I rinsed it well enough because I'd always get some gritty stuff here and there.
Craig
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I can't remember the type of seaweed it was but I'd soak it overnight when I was a raw vegan and it came out fine. I don't think I rinsed it well enough because I'd always get some gritty stuff here and there.
Craig
The water in which you soaked the seaweed contains minerals. Do you drink it, or just eat the seaweed ?
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I just at the seaweed. I didn't even think about the minerals leaching into the water.
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Raw Samphire and raw oysters both have lots of iodine in them.
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Hi all.
I feel for Nicola and understand all her worries as I'm faced with similar dilemmas.
My problems are mostly related to poor digestion as well. I'm convinced that my stomach is not functioning perfectly because I usually cannot eat more than half an lb of meat/fat in one go. If I do so I feel myself miserable, i.e. I have the feeling of continuous presence of food in the stomach and can not function normally after that for quite a while.
I thought the salt was an issue. I hated i was doing that but for a couple of months I was adding some sea salt to the water I drunk. I couldn't eat salt with raw meats as it becomes unpalatable for me. I don't think it helped me in any way.
As for now instead of any salt I eat 3-4 oz of bovine blood in the mornings. There are some issues also. I've found only very fresh blood maintains its liquid form. After a little while (several days) it gradually coagulates and turns into one big jelly lump. And what I have noticed also that only fluid blood tastes salty. The coagulated blood has a rather bland taste. That may mean that probably most of the chloride accumulates in that liquid substance...
Anyway, that didn't resolve digestive difficulties.
As for iodine, for some two months, against my will, I was supplementing with raw sea-herb. Since I didn't notice any improvements I stopped it several weeks ago.
I have found that IF was not appropriate for me as well. Thus, despite all inconveniences of eating early, I have to have the breakfast and don't fast et all these days.
As I cannot figure out what is wrong with my raw paleo diet (I was eating this way ?. a year and a half) I just do my best to at least make sure I'm not aggravating the situation. I eat the amount of meat/fat which don't disturbs me afterwards (usually 0.5lb two times daily) and wait for the better times.
I hope all those who still have some difficulties with raw paleodiet will resolve them sooner or later.
best wishes,
Yuri
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digestive issues could be enzyme-related. Perhaps an enzyme supplement might improve matters?
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I agree. They should at least be taken long enough to give the pancreas a chance to heal. After that, they might not need them any more.
Finding out that humans produce elastase was one of the factors that convinced me that we were meant to consume animal foods - even the tough gristle.
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And what enzymes you are talking about?
I tried bee-pollen. I'm not sure it would help so much...
Does not meat contain all necessary enzymes for digestion?
Or are you talking about smth like that http://www.healthy-sunshine.com/nspshopping/shopexd.asp?ID=381
I doubt the appropriateness of taking such supps. Who has the experience in this field?
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I don't have a problem with eating raw meat and fat on my stomach. I do IF and eat in the evening. My energy is good threw the day (normaly), but I drink alkaline ionized water which does "make" energy...
What I can not understand is my metabolism?
Extra salt? Don't like it with my raw food - but this may be a problem in the mind?
Extra iodine? Have asked about this and have got answers like "meat has iondine".
I can not understand that paleo humans "new" they needed sea weed for iondine! Not all had the sea around the next bend!
People give dogs raw meat and that is not fresh kill - how do they make stomach acid with out extra blood? They don't eat seafood...
Nicola
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It's good to hear you are doing well on this diet.
So, I presume mostly of your inquiries are of theoretical value.
As regards the dietary salt for producing of stomach acid all facts seem to prove it is not necessary. There are so many rawpaleo fooders all around who have brilliant results without any extra salt. The same with dogs.
As long as iodine is concerned it may be or may not be an issue for certain folks, depending on the area they live. I mean, this is common understanding that in some parts of the world soils are naturally deficient in iodine or have become so with the time. Thus, plants would be such as well, which will result in meat with low iodine levels. Somewhere else the situation may be quite to the contrary.
Finally, I thought you had some digestive problems as you complained having fat in the stools. But if you still feel good I see no reason be so persistent about these irrelevant issues.
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I mentioned "digestion" (this is only stomach) does not seem to bother me (I eat when I can rest) but "metabolism" (this is the whole process after digestion) is not what I would call "dogs poo at the end"!
I notice more than many because I am very sensitive, emotional, am active and have always been light, even very, very light as a result of this (and child-hood abuse). So personality (sensitive, emotional, lifestyle...) is part of digestion and metabolism.
The water (alkaline, ionized water) will also influence digestion and metabolism as well all the other aspects of personality.
So this is my picture and I do not know if the answer is just a, b, c, or a&b&c.
Nicola
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And what enzymes you are talking about?
I tried bee-pollen. I'm not sure it would help so much...
Does not meat contain all necessary enzymes for digestion?
Or are you talking about smth like that http://www.healthy-sunshine.com/nspshopping/shopexd.asp?ID=381
I doubt the appropriateness of taking such supps. Who has the experience in this field?
All I can say is that some raw-animal-foodists have resorted to using enzymes while eating the occasional cooked meal. I prefer using high-meat as an alternative, myself. The enzymes used by others either came from raw foods like unripe papaya(?) or from higher-grade enzyme supplements with no additives/minimal processing etc. I've tried bee-pollen and it's not effective in that regard, IMO. As regards enzymes and raw food, I believe(?) all foods even raw require some enzymes from the body, it's just that raw food-digestion requires much less production of enzymes as there are already some enzymes already in the raw meats.
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All I can say is that some raw-animal-foodists have resorted to using enzymes while eating the occasional cooked meal. I prefer using high-meat as an alternative, myself. The enzymes used by others either came from raw foods like unripe papaya(?) or from higher-grade enzyme supplements with no additives/minimal processing etc. I've tried bee-pollen and it's not effective in that regard, IMO. As regards enzymes and raw food, I believe(?) all foods even raw require some enzymes from the body, it's just that raw food-digestion requires much less production of enzymes as there are already some enzymes already in the raw meats.
Agreed, I don't think there's any way you are getting the perfect amount of enzymes to digest food from the raw food itself. Even if somehow it existed in the food, it has been shown that food rapidly loses active enzyme levels, and not many of us can kill an animal and immediately drink it's blood and eat it's flesh. Most people can't even pick their own fruits/vegetables. In this regard an enzyme supplement may be appropriate. If it works and makes you healthier, even if it's not "natural," I say go for it.
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I digest suet provided it's of good quality. No problems with the other stuff. I love aged kidney.
I know this thread is old, but aged kidney tastes like salt to me too. I usually dislike all salts, but this saltiness is something special. It tastes more complete, delicious!