Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Instincto / Anopsology => Topic started by: technosmith on January 23, 2011, 11:44:36 pm
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Hey Iguana,
Hope you are well.
Just wanted to ask you something.
On a recent post you said "Once you’ve excluded all artificial stuff, cereals, dairy, cooked, processed, mixed and seasoned food, about everything you like can be tasted. If it smells good to you (and ideally triggers salivation), then why not carefully taste it (in case of doubtful stuff, keep it in the mouth 6 to 10 seconds to allow enough time to spit it if a bad taste appears) and eat as much as you want as long is it still tastes good and no bad feeling appears, just like an animal would do?"
Do you know this approach works even when eating something like berries, grapes, or melon. You know, foods that are quite light and sweet, and you would imagine it would be easy to over-eat. Is the instincto 'stop' clear?
Thanks,
Phil
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fruit and its water content take up volume so you sense some fullness at some point. but the best guide is if you have indigestion symptoms afterward then you know not to eat so much next time ;)
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I like overeating watermelon when it starts feeling sweet I drink glass of cold water and continue eating it like crazy!!
I like to do it in the morning and it makes me soo full and relaxed untill evening then I have to eliminate the watermelon its very cleansing in my opinion!
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Hey Iguana,
Hope you are well.
Yes I’m fine, thanks!
On a recent post you said "Once you’ve excluded all artificial stuff, cereals, dairy, cooked, processed, mixed and seasoned food, about everything you like can be tasted. If it smells good to you (and ideally triggers salivation), then why not carefully taste it (in case of doubtful stuff, keep it in the mouth 6 to 10 seconds to allow enough time to spit it if a bad taste appears) and eat as much as you want as long is it still tastes good and no bad feeling appears, just like an animal would do?"
Do you know this approach works even when eating something like berries, grapes, or melon. You know, foods that are quite light and sweet, and you would imagine it would be easy to over-eat. Is the instincto 'stop' clear?
Thanks,
Phil
Yes, it works with berries, grapes and melon. It’s just that the amount we can eat without problems is sometimes amazing.
Grapes stops you when you cannot eat their skin anymore. You might still go on by spitting the skin and eating the flesh, but then by doing so you may eat too much of it. My parents ate so much refined and cooked carbs that the couldn’t even eat a single whole grape anymore: they had to spit the skin even from the first grape they ate!
I never had any taste stop with melons: I stop when I feel satisfied and it can be after 3 medium size cantaloupe or galia. Never had any problem digesting it, but then I don’t feel like eating anything else which might make the digestion problematic.
fruit and its water content take up volume so you sense some fullness at some point. but the best guide is if you have indigestion symptoms afterward then you know not to eat so much next time ;)
Yes, you better stop at the first sign of fullness, especially with modern cultivated and heavily selected fruits. I never had any indigestion with fruits, but of course, fruits should not be eaten shortly after or just before animal proteins or other classes of food.
I don’t think the indigestion symptom would be a reliable indicator, for as I said I never had any with fruits. You would get indigestion with bad associations or if you eat too many different species of fruits in the same meal or “cross eat” a fruit with a different one or other food. (By “cross eat” I mean eating something, for example honey till instinctive stop, then eating almonds till instinctive stop, then eating honey again – which would allow you to eat more almonds and so on.)
Also, the amount eaten of a specific food can vary wildly form one day to the other according to our current needs, metabolic state and current digestive capacity. So it is useless to base the amount we should actually eat on the memory of the amount eaten last time.
I like overeating watermelon when it starts feeling sweet I drink glass of cold water and continue eating it like crazy!!
I like to do it in the morning and it makes me soo full and relaxed untill evening then I have to eliminate the watermelon its very cleansing in my opinion!
I wouldn’t eat watermelon, drink water and eat some watermelon again! In general, it’s much better for digestion to drink before the meal, neither in the middle of a meal nor just after.
Cheers
Francois
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Hey Francois,
So if you keep it 'raw and pure' you believe that you can eat carbs without any restriction other than to stop when your body tells you its time to stop, either through feeling satisfied or through a loss of taste?
I guess this would also apply to raw fat as well, yer?
Thanks,
Phil
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So if you keep it 'raw and pure' you believe that you can eat carbs without any restriction other than to stop when your body tells you its time to stop, either through feeling satisfied or through a loss of taste?
I guess this would also apply to raw fat as well, yer?
In principle yes. But there can be a problem with some modern cultivated fruits and too easy accessibility of several kinds of fruits on our table. So, it’s better to limit oneself to one or two species of fruits per meal (and two meals a day anyway). Intake of acid cultivated fruits such as oranges or pineapples should certainly be limited – unless organic pineapples are overripe and deliciously alcoholic… :P
I’ve been eating a lot of fruits since I was 18 years old, so it doesn’t trigger any detox on me whatever the amount I eat.
Yes, it applies to raw fat: if you neither process nor mix it, you can’t eat too much of it. Try to feed on ripe coconuts only… you’ll very soon be fed up of it!
Cheers
Francois
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Yes, it applies to raw fat: if you neither process nor mix it, you can’t eat too much of it. Try to feed on ripe coconuts only… you’ll very soon be fed up of it!
In my experience, it could be exactly the other way round: If you make raw coconut cream, you can eat less coconut than when you eat the hard unprocessed coconut meat because the coconut cream will be more completely digested, i. e. more of the coconut cream will be absorbed during digestion compared with the unprocessed coconut meat. Accordingly, you will have an earlier instinctive stop with raw coconut cream than with the unprocessed hard coconut meat. At least this seems to apply to myself. :)
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Yes it can also be the other way round, of course. Coconut cream is usually not intended to be ingested alone, but to be mixed with other foods in the cooking process. As a rule, cooking recipes are intended to make the food tasting better so that you can eat more of it (to drive the instinctive stop back), not to make it worse tasting in view that you eat less (advance the instinctive stop)!
It’s quite easy to find processed stuff and mixtures that taste worse than the unprocessed and unmixed stuff.
Cheers
Francois
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Coconut cream is very tasty to me, just as the unprocessed coconut meat. Nevertheless, it has an earlier (or clearer?) instinctive stop to me compared with the unprocessed coconut meat. That´s a fact; I have done some experiments!
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Hi Iguana,
I also have a question re carbs for you: after about half a year or so of ZC with some greens thrown in once in a while I felt a strong craving for sugar-and wanted to start eating cake, chocolate and bread stuff. I went and got myself some fruit and they tasted heavenly. That was 3 days ago. I thought my body was telling me sth. and I better go back eating fruit but now I experience some weird muscle stiffness in my legs and some cramping in my foot. Also my feet tend to become cold after eating fruit. Do you think I should wait until that is over and go on eating fruit or stop it? I feel like eating lots of fruit the last two days. I hardly want any meat at all anymore. But I am not sure what to do now really.
How much fruit do you eat on average? Do you think it's a bad idea eating lots of fruit (because of the sugar)?
Many thanks
Nicole
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Perhaps you should stop your fruit intake for now and then SLOWY increase your fruit/sugar intake.
Fruit can cause issues even in an instincto context, of course. For example,
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/instincto-debunker-debunking/msg40858/#msg40858
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/instincto-debunker-debunking/msg40820/#msg40820
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/anti-instincto-thread/msg39869/#msg39869
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/anti-instincto-thread/msg39884/#msg39884
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Hi Iguana,
I also have a question re carbs for you: after about half a year or so of ZC with some greens thrown in once in a while I felt a strong craving for sugar-and wanted to start eating cake, chocolate and bread stuff. I went and got myself some fruit and they tasted heavenly. That was 3 days ago. I thought my body was telling me sth. and I better go back eating fruit but now I experience some weird muscle stiffness in my legs and some cramping in my foot. Also my feet tend to become cold after eating fruit. Do you think I should wait until that is over and go on eating fruit or stop it? I feel like eating lots of fruit the last two days. I hardly want any meat at all anymore. But I am not sure what to do now really.
How much fruit do you eat on average? Do you think it's a bad idea eating lots of fruit (because of the sugar)?
Many thanks
Nicole
Sounds like your body wants you to find your balance as it swings like a pendelum from one extreme to the other.
I do get into zero carb for a few days when I'm stressed. I don't know why, but my body just wants meat when I'm stressed.
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I do get into zero carb for a few days when I'm stressed. I don't know why, but my body just wants meat when I'm stressed.
When I'm stressed, I know, I have eaten to much carbohydrates. After a day or two eating only herbs, nuts or meat a celestial peace is inside me and nothing can disturb it. :)
This stuff contains a lot of fats and I think this is the reason why my nerves are strong again.
Unfortunately I'm still attracted by sweet stuff but the experience that they cause stress inside and outside me makes it easier to avoid it.
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Same here. Though, of course, if I continue long-term withholding carbs, I get even more stressed.
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Same...
Fruits are ok before physique activity for me.
If I am not active physically, and eat too much fruits (specially high glucidic ones), I tend to be very distract excited and next tired.
Fat calm me and my insulin.
Sensible balance to find.
Some of my fruitarian friend say they experienced big tiredness of the body and mind with meat.
So I don't know really what to conclude for them.
But for me I know !
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Hi Iguana,
I also have a question re carbs for you: after about half a year or so of ZC with some greens thrown in once in a while I felt a strong craving for sugar-and wanted to start eating cake, chocolate and bread stuff. I went and got myself some fruit and they tasted heavenly. That was 3 days ago. I thought my body was telling me sth. and I better go back eating fruit but now I experience some weird muscle stiffness in my legs and some cramping in my foot. Also my feet tend to become cold after eating fruit. Do you think I should wait until that is over and go on eating fruit or stop it? I feel like eating lots of fruit the last two days. I hardly want any meat at all anymore. But I am not sure what to do now really.
How much fruit do you eat on average? Do you think it's a bad idea eating lots of fruit (because of the sugar)?
Many thanks
Nicole
Looks like the others have comprehensively answered; both firsts links from Hanna give to opinion of GCB on this matter. Sorry, I've been busy and couldn't reply myself, but please let me know if you still think I should answer.
Cheers
François
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Looks like the others have comprehensively answered; both firsts links from Hanna give to opinion of GCB on this matter. Sorry, I've been busy and couldn't reply myself, but please let me know if you still think I should answer.
Cheers
François
Yes I woild LOVE you to answer! From reading your posts the last two days you seem to be a very wise man from whom I could learn a lot.
Many thanks
Nicole
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I just wanted to add: Thanks for all the suggestions anyone -still I am undecided about waht to do. Re the suspected mineral imbalances: of course I have been thinking about that too. The cramps: you see this is really NOT my biggest issue: its more like i have a constant tightness/stiffness in my legs. Besides I have joint pain. And today on my run my foot did fell numb again. So I am wondering if that's more of an allergic reaction to the fruit rather than some imbalance of nutrients.
Cheers
Nicole
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>>So I am wondering if that's more of an allergic reaction to the fruit rather than some imbalance of nutrients.
I had a very strong pollen allergy in the past (before I began to eat a raw food diet). When I eat too much fruit / sugar, mild pollen allergy symptoms return. I´m even under the impression that I react mildly allergic to some foods and especially to certain fruits during the pollen season in case that I eat too much of these foods and too much sugar in general. But that doesn´t mean that I cannot eat any fruit at all.
I eat vegetables and/or greens almost everyday and I think this is very important in order to stay "balanced" - unless I eat lots of animal food!
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Apropos fruit...
fructose is ten or seventeen times as good as glucose at AGE formation, depending on which AGE you look at and which model you use. (...) Bear in mind that, while fructose is only present in the systemic circulation in trace amounts (which are probably bad for you) it will be present in copious amounts in the portal vein from gut to liver after each fruit meal.
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/AGE%20RAGE%20and%20ALE%20%281%29%3A%20The%20AGE%20of%20LDL
So there are good reasons to limit sugar intake whether fruits are "paleo" or not.
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Hi Iguana,
I also have a question re carbs for you: after about half a year or so of ZC with some greens thrown in once in a while I felt a strong craving for sugar-and wanted to start eating cake, chocolate and bread stuff. I went and got myself some fruit and they tasted heavenly. That was 3 days ago. I thought my body was telling me sth. and I better go back eating fruit but now I experience some weird muscle stiffness in my legs and some cramping in my foot. Also my feet tend to become cold after eating fruit. Do you think I should wait until that is over and go on eating fruit or stop it? I feel like eating lots of fruit the last two days. I hardly want any meat at all anymore. But I am not sure what to do now really.
How much fruit do you eat on average? Do you think it's a bad idea eating lots of fruit (because of the sugar)?
Many thanks
Nicole
Well, I don’t know!
It depends on many parameters such as whether the fruits are wild or intensively cultivated, acids or not. GCB stance (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/instincto-debunker-debunking/msg40858/#msg40858)is that the culprit is not the sugar contents but the acidity of some varieties of fruits cultivated in temperate areas.
We don’t have any experience with people having eaten no carbohydrates at all for long periods. This would probably have been an extreme an very unusual situation for our ancestors primates and anthropoids, so it’s quite possible that the sudden return to a more natural situation could be troublesome.
GCB told us about a cow having been fed grain and denatured food for her whole live; when put to grazing, she died shortly afterwards. Fish is a normal food for ducks, but I hardly feed my ducks with fish and there’s none in the water flowing out of my spring. One day, I found very cheap sardines and I bought a lot. There were many left for my ducks and they gorged on it very quickly. The next morning one of them was dead: she was full of sardines in the stomach and even in the beak!
I am really not sure if I believe in this detox-stuff any longer after my recent fruit-desaster (after soem time ZC I reintroduced fruits and got very strong muscle stiffness, cramps, and joint pain). I think it is some type of allergy. My reason for this thinking: I had been eating more than 3years vegan before I started paleo diet. After 2 weeks or so I started ZC. Now if the fruit-desaster happened due to the fact that my body just wasn't used anymore to eating plants (as someone suggested) then why didn't I get any negative reactions eating fish & meat for the first time after 3 years without any animal foods at all? The only thing that happened with eating meat was that it felt a bit heavy in my stomach. But my body didn't react in any negative way. Instead: the more meat I ate the better I felt. so I think that the healthier your diet becomes the more sensitive you react to food that your body obviously doesn't like.
just my 2cents
Nicole
Why no negative reaction to fish/meat and reaction with fruits? I don’t know, but it seems that fruits is the class of food which triggers the more detox reactions. Since we know that cooked and typically Neolithic food (cereals and dairy) brings abnormal molecules into our body (intoxination), then we should admit that detoxination can occur. Otherwise there would be no hope to heal and get to a normal weight again for the sick and obese people while on the contrary experience shows that sick and obese people can regain a perfect health and weight under instinctive paleo nutrition.
So what I would try in your case is to start a gradual transition, with per example a single well chosen kind of fruit (as wild as possible) per day initially and in limited amount at first. If meat is currently not attractive anymore and if I were nevertheless hungry, I would eat other stuff such as vegetables, nuts, coconut, avocados - and perhaps eggs and seafood if it’s still attractive. Then progressively allow myself more fruits.
Hope this helps!
Francois
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We don’t have any experience with people having eaten no carbohydrates at all for long periods. This would probably have been an extreme an very unusual situation for our ancestors primates and anthropoids, so it’s quite possible that the sudden return to a more natural situation could be troublesome.
Why no negative reaction to fish/meat and reaction with fruits? I don’t know, but it seems that fruits is the class of food which triggers the more detox reactions. Since we know that cooked and typically Neolithic food (cereals and dairy) brings abnormal molecules into our body (intoxination), then we should admit that detoxination can occur. Otherwise there would be no hope to heal and get to a normal weight again for the sick and obese people while on the contrary experience shows that sick and obese people can regain a perfect health and weight under instinctive paleo nutrition.
Hope this helps!
Francois
Thanks Francois! But these things you mention I kinda doubt b/c: I live in Germany and as you are living in France I think you can very well follow my thoughts: wild fruit are to be found only during short periods of the year-and its almost only berries in the woods. They taste very sweet however (just for those ZC guys who claim that cultivated fruit tend to be ways sweeter...). Wild apples and pears do taste sour and also very starchy. Once I had some and I could only stomach one...Wild herbs are available during longer periods-and some of them actually taste really nice. (I used to collect lots of them ;)). BUT: What would my anchstors have eaten during the most months? I doubt they would have collected apples and stored them somewhere for the winter & summer...Those berries: well it would take you loads to meet your energy needs and you'd send the whole day eating. And then it would be only during a short period of the year. So I kind of think they would have eaten meat mostly? As bark from the trees isn't too attractive to eat and there are almost no plant foods which are edible around in winter, I was thinking that meat must have been the staple.
Re the detox-symptoms: I tried to eat a raw vegan diet after some time having eaten cooked vegan: I had the same symptoms-so that made me think wheather its some sort of allergie? (B/c on my vegan diet I would also eat fruit of course, but not in hose massive quantities I ate when trying to transition to raw)
Thanks again for your thoughts!
Nicole
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Hi Nicole,
Our ancestors settled in Europe rather recently: as far as we know, they essentially populated Europe after they mastered the fire.
I told you “as wild as possible” because, as you say, really local wild fruits are not available here in winter. Nevertheless, there’s still enough choice of acceptable fruits such as persimmons, kiwis, cherimoyas, apples not too intensively cultivated and almost wild tropical fruits such as litchis, papayas, soursop, cempedaks, jackfruits, most varieties of durians, various kinds of sapotillas and so on.
Cheers
François
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Why no negative reaction to fish/meat and reaction with fruits? I don't know, but it seems that fruits is the class of food which triggers the more detox reactions.
My experience is that meat/fish is the class of food which leads to the most detox reactions.
We don't have any experience with people having eaten no carbohydrates at all for long periods.
Even if you only eat meat you will incorporate some carbohydrates.
The human organism is well adapted to stay without or with small amounts of carbohydrates. On the other hand an overload of carbohydrates cause a lot of troubles even eaten raw. That's my observation.
I don't live anymore in tropical regions and after some years of eating 100% raw I feel much better reducing the amounts of fruits especially in winter.
We don't have to look back we have to look foreward. Even if our ancestors have eaten more carbohydrates due to the environment they lived it could NOW be better to reduce the supply of carbohydrates.
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We don't have to look back we have to look foreward. Even if our ancestors have eaten more carbohydrates due to the environment they lived it could NOW be better to reduce the supply of carbohydrates.
I have the same feeling.
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We don't have to look back we have to look foreward.
Is the Paleolithic era forward in the future? ;) Should we rename this forum "Raw Future Forum"?
Even if our ancestors have eaten more carbohydrates due to the environment they lived it could NOW be better to reduce the supply of carbohydrates.
And maybe it could NOW be better to drink cow milk? How do you reduce the supply of carbohydrates? (Supposing your are a real paleo hominid, not even knowing what carbohydrates are.)
Cheers
François
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Since we know that cooked and typically Neolithic food (cereals and dairy) brings abnormal molecules into our body (intoxination), then we should admit that detoxination can occur. Otherwise there would be no hope to heal and get to a normal weight again for the sick and obese people while on the contrary experience shows that sick and obese people can regain a perfect health and weight under instinctive paleo nutrition.
You know, Iguana, every now and then, you come up with some very pertinent points I could never have possibly come up with myself. I will use this excerpt in an upcoming mega-essay on the benefits of raw foods/disadvantages of cooked foods, on rawpaleodiet.com.
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Should we rename this forum "Raw Future Forum"?
A very good idea. :)
Susan
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And maybe it could NOW be better to drink cow milk? How do you reduce the supply of carbohydrates? (Supposing your are a real paleo hominid, not even knowing what carbohydrates are.)
I'm a little bit irritated about your questions. What has cow milk to do with raw eating? ??? I thought we agree that diarys are not suitable for humans.
Back to the problems with carbohydrates: It is my personal experience when selecting food only by smell, taste and salvation flow I prefer mostly tropical fruits. At the beginning of raw eating I have had no problems doing this (or wasn't be able to realize them). But know I realize them: cold hands and feets, muscle cramps, confusing dreams, feeling stressed and others. So I decided to reduce the supply of tropical fruits (I don't buy them anymore ;D ). I lost wheight but know I feel much better and my healing processes continues.
Eating raw is a personal experiment and we have mentioned it before: one has to observe very acurate what is happening with body, soul and spirit. In theory instinctiv raw eating is logical and plausible. But maybe our instincts are confused because of deficient imprinting in our childhood. So it can be very useful to use intuition and intellect too. :)
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Back to the problems with carbohydrates: It is my personal experience when selecting food only by smell, taste and salvation flow I prefer mostly tropical fruits. At the beginning of raw eating I have had no problems doing this (or wasn't be able to realize them). But know I realize them: cold hands and feets, muscle cramps, confusing dreams, feeling stressed and others. So I decided to reduce the supply of tropical fruits (I don't buy them anymore ;D ). I lost wheight but know I feel much better and my healing processes continues.
Hi Susan
What sources of carbs do you eat now? i gather from your posts that you do include some carbs, but you feel better on mainly meat and fat sources.
I am in the process of exploring other carb sources and reducng my dependence on excess sweet cultivated fruit, esp bananas.
Thanks, Bronwen
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You know, Iguana, every now and then, you come up with some very pertinent points I could never have possibly come up with myself. I will use this excerpt in an upcoming mega-essay on the benefits of raw foods/disadvantages of cooked foods, on rawpaleodiet.com.
It seems you underestimate yourself. Anyway most of my points such as this one come from GCB’s findings, even if he didn’t express it exactly like me.
I'm a little bit irritated about your questions. What has cow milk to do with raw eating? ??? I thought we agree that diarys are not suitable for humans.
Sure, we agree on that. It was a metaphor of your paragraph “We don't have to look back we have to look foreward. Even if our ancestors have eaten more carbohydrates due to the environment they lived it could NOW be better to reduce the supply of carbohydrates” intended to show the similar way of thinking between admitting we can arbitrarily reduce the supply of carbohydrates and introducing dairy in our nutrition. We don’t eat dairy because it’s not a typical Paleolithic food (amongst other reasons), so reducing the supply of carbs is neither a Paleolithic thing since prehistoric hominids had no idea what carbs are about and therefore they could not reduce their supply.
Doing so is a typical dietician approach and hence it’s diametrically opposed to the very basic views of instinctive paleo nutrition. In the latter, we try to avoid any interference of current scientific knowledge about food composition in a bid to eat as much as possible like our ancestors did before they knew anything about carbs, proteins, fat, vitamins, enzymes, antinutrients, minerals and so on.
Back to the problems with carbohydrates: It is my personal experience when selecting food only by smell, taste and salvation flow I prefer mostly tropical fruits. At the beginning of raw eating I have had no problems doing this (or wasn't be able to realize them). But know I realize them: cold hands and feets, muscle cramps, confusing dreams, feeling stressed and others. So I decided to reduce the supply of tropical fruits (I don't buy them anymore ;D ). I lost wheight but know I feel much better and my healing processes continues.
I don’t eat much tropical fruits since I’m here in SW France and I didn’t notice any significant change in my health except that I felt rather better when I could eat a lot of very ripe tropical fruits such as papayas, mangoes, plantains, pineapples. But some other parameters have changed almost simultaneously and it’s difficult to infer any correlation. For example I get cold feet if I’m the whole day behind my computer while I don’t have this problem after a long walk.
Eating raw is a personal experiment and we have mentioned it before: one has to observe very acurate what is happening with body, soul and spirit. In theory instinctiv raw eating is logical and plausible. But maybe our instincts are confused because of deficient imprinting in our childhood. So it can be very useful to use intuition and intellect too. :)
As I said, food is by far not the only factor (especially for "soul and spirit"!), so any such conclusions on a single anecdotal case are hazardous. Standard cooked dieters may eat tropical fruits, so if tropical fruits were forbidden in raw paleo diet, I would immediately return to cooked diet to be able to eat tropical fruits! I’ve eaten a lot of them for several decades and I feel great with it (and no tooth decay at all). Of course, we must also eat enough raw animal food, but for me the balance is automatic and totally instinctive: I feel when I have eaten enough fruits and thus I look for something else such as vegetables, meat, fish, shellfish or eggs.
Of course, for someone who has never eaten a mango before, eating a lot of mangos for the first time at 30 or 40 years old can trigger detox reactions.
Cheers
François
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Of course, for someone who has never eaten a mango before, eating a lot of mangos for the first time at 30 or 40 years old can trigger detox reactions.
Sorry, but IMO any "detox" interpretations are irresponsible and mostly wrong. Never tolerate any negative symptoms; modify your diet in a way that makes the symptoms disappear!
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Could you explain a bit more? Why is it irresponsible and mostly wrong? How do you know how to modify your diet for the symptoms to disappear?
If we admit that there can be intoxination by Maillard molecules and such, don’t you think the body will eliminate those molecules when suitable ones become available? Don’t you think the bacterial and viral illnesses should be beneficial in restoring the body global health? Would you interrupt a bacterial illness by taking antibiotics? Would you go to a dermatologist in case you get rashes? What do you think comes out of the nose when we have a cold? How do you explain we can get colds in hot tropical climates?
Cheers
François
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>>How do you know how to modify your diet for the symptoms to disappear?
Experience and experimentation. Listen to instinctive stops; reduce/increase experimentally the amounts of certain foods you eat (including fruit, of course), experiment with your diet!
>>If we admit that there can be intoxination by Maillard molecules and such, don’t you think the body will eliminate those molecules when suitable ones become available?
No. Instinctos (and other raw fooders as well) age visibly. If they would detox all Maillard molecules, they wouldn´t age.
>>Don’t you think the bacterial and viral illnesses should be beneficial in restoring the body global health?
When I´m susceptible to infections, my diet is wrong (too much sugar, too little animal food...).
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The body naturally produces a very few advanced glycation end products/AGEs quite aside from the intake of AGEs via cooked foods, so even rawists are subject to "wear and tear" even if they don't take in any Maillard reaction products via foods - but because rawists do not absorb as many toxxins via their foods, they age at a slower rate than cooked-foodists, which is why RVAFers so often remark that middle-aged RVAFers at raw food gatherings look 10 years younger than people their own age.
Plus, AGEs even exist in sizeable quantities in raw meats from unhealthy animals, such as intensively-farmed grainfed cattle/chickens - I recall one study showing AGEs level for grainfed chicken.
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>>If we admit that there can be intoxination by Maillard molecules and such, don’t you think the body will eliminate those molecules when suitable ones become available?
No. Instinctos (and other raw fooders as well) age visibly. If they would detox all Maillard molecules, they wouldn´t age.
Every plant and animal on this planet ages, it’s a natural process even in absence of Maillard’s molecules. Wild animals age and die, they’re not immortals.
>>Don’t you think the bacterial and viral illnesses should be beneficial in restoring the body global health?
When I´m susceptible to infections, my diet is wrong (too much sugar, too little animal food...).
The bacterial and viral “infections” remain perfectly controlled, benign and safe under raw paleo instinctive nutrition. They runaway and become dangerous or even fatal only if the intake of cooked and Neolithic food continues. This is a fact that has been verified thousands of times and that I’ve been able to verify myself a lot of times during a 24 years period.
But, yes, in such a situation, I agree, experience shows it’s better to avoid the intake of concentrate sources of sugar such as dates, dried fruits or honey and eat more vegetables and animal food if hungry.
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About detox..
I have found out that I never get "detox-reactions" from wild berries or papaya. How strange is that? And they should be the most strong "healers" by any means?! Also wild edibles/herbs. Never got a "detox" reaction from them. Ever.
But from other kind of cultivated fruits.. I can get a lot of symptoms, especially my teeths.. ugh.
I think detox is very often NOT detox, but the opposite.. ;)
Another idea. I believe our bodies loose certain enzyms when we eat only raw for a while, enzyms to digest coocked foods. So that is why you feel shitty when you eat something coocked. Not because it is a poison.
BUT, I do feel that raw is optional! Of course, as many vitamins etc. (also kreatin, BTW) get partly destroyed by heat. I feel the best on raw. But is might be wrong to say that coocked is poison etc. Look how many people are very healthy and live long lives and eat coocked foods.
Of course I believe raw is superior for healing. I do eat raw myself mostly. But I am not religious about it.
If I eat a rare steak, slightly seared, and thereafter raw wild berries or papaya, I have no troubles, everything is perfect.
If I eat the steak and thereafter cultivated fruits.. I get hurting teehts and inflammation. This I have experienced not only once.
So why is it that these healthy berries do not "detox" the coocked meats, as cultivated fruits do?
Something is wrong here. ???
Maybe fructose is the real poison, and veg. oils like too much nuts etc...
Inger
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So why is it that these healthy berries do not "detox" the coocked meats, as cultivated fruits do?
Because, as you say:
I think detox is very often NOT detox, but the opposite.. ;)
;)
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>>Wild animals age
This shows that even wild animals do not "detox" maillard molecules (= advanced glycation end products/AGEs). AGEs make you age! Read the scientific literature. As long as you age, you do not detox AGEs.
>>But, yes, in such a situation, I agree, experience shows it’s better to avoid the intake of concentrate sources of sugar such as dates, dried fruits or honey and eat more vegetables and animal food if hungry.
You did not understand me. I spoke about PREVENTING infections, not about curing them.
Edit: I mean detox in the sense used by instinctos, i. e. detox of all "denatured" molecules and AGEs which we ingested while we still ate cooked food, and their replacement by "raw" molecules. If this were possible, any 60 year old person who has detoxed should look like a 20 year old again or at the very least should not age further since any AGE in the body would be detoxed.
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I'm always amazed at how people can try to claim that cooked-foodists live long lives and ascribe that to a cooked diet. It's such a falsehood. I mean, the only reason why such people live long is they are under far less stress than previous generations, have access to advanced surgical techniques/drugs etc. which get rid of things like obesity or degenerated bones(I'm thinking of stomach-reduction surgery/artificial hips etc.) and so on. Plus, most such people are actually worse off than long-term raw-foodists their own age, as AGEs/advanced glycation end products worsen standard age-related conditions such as arthritis etc. I know of some cooked-foodists who only turned to RVAF diets solely in order to reduce age-related decline(as opposed to really serious health-problems) and they greatly benefitted from cutting out cooked foods.
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I'm always amazed at how people can try to claim that cooked-foodists live long lives and ascribe that to a cooked diet. It's such a falsehood. I mean, the only reason why such people live long is they are under far less stress than previous generations, have access to advanced surgical techniques/drugs etc. ...
Absolutely!
As far as I can see nearly everyone in our cooked society is in some kind of health trouble from age 50! So many cases just in my neighbourhood with really miserable life quality at relatively young ages.
And I am not talking about teeth fillings and glasses...
Löwenherz
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>>Wild animals age
This shows that even wild animals do not "detox" maillard molecules (= advanced glycation end products/AGEs). AGEs make you age! Read the scientific literature. As long as you age, you do not detox AGEs.
I don’t think it’s so simple ! AGEs accelerate aging, but
At present, the biological basis of ageing is unknown. Most scientists agree that substantial variability exists in the rates of ageing across different species, and that is to a large extent is genetically based.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageing Moreover, wild animals in an unpolluted environment don’t have any significant amount of AGEs in their diet.
You did not understand me. I spoke about PREVENTING infections, not about curing them.
In instinctive raw paleo nutrition infectious diseases are considered beneficial since they remain benign and perfectly controled while apparently allowing the body to get read of toxins. So we have no reason to prevent them: on the contrary they are welcome.
Wounds never get infected, they heal without any need for disinfectant. In the 24 years since I eat instincto I’ve never used any disinfectant and never got a single wound infected.
Edit: I mean detox in the sense used by instinctos, i. e. detox of all "denatured" molecules and AGEs which we ingested while we still ate cooked food, and their replacement by "raw" molecules. If this were possible, any 60 year old person who has detoxed should look like a 20 year old again or at the very least should not age further since any AGE in the body would be detoxed.
See Wikipedia page linked above and specially the chapter about theories. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageing#Theories AGEs are not even mentionnned.
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Absolutely!
As far as I can see nearly everyone in our cooked society is in some kind of health trouble from age 50! So many cases just in my neighbourhood with really miserable life quality at relatively young ages.
And I am not talking about teeth fillings and glasses...
Löwenherz
Good point. People seemingly do well on garbage, even adolescents who eat little besides chips, big macs, and soda. Their symptoms usually become prominent when they're 40-50.
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Sorry, but IMO any "detox" interpretations are irresponsible and mostly wrong. Never tolerate any negative symptoms; modify your diet in a way that makes the symptoms disappear.
>>How do you know how to modify your diet for the symptoms to disappear?
Experience and experimentation. Listen to instinctive stops; reduce/increase experimentally the amounts of certain foods you eat (including fruit, of course), experiment with your diet.
That's my opinion too.
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It was a metaphor of your paragraph “We don't have to look back we have to look foreward. Even if our ancestors have eaten more carbohydrates due to the environment they lived it could NOW be better to reduce the supply of carbohydrates” intended to show the similar way of thinking between admitting we can arbitrarily reduce the supply of carbohydrates and introducing dairy in our nutrition. We don’t eat dairy because it’s not a typical Paleolithic food (amongst other reasons), so reducing the supply of carbs is neither a Paleolithic thing since prehistoric hominids had no idea what carbs are about and therefore they could not reduce their supply.
Doing so is a typical dietician approach and hence it’s diametrically opposed to the very basic views of instinctive paleo nutrition. In the latter, we try to avoid any interference of current scientific knowledge about food composition in a bid to eat as much as possible like our ancestors did before they knew anything about carbs, proteins, fat, vitamins, enzymes, antinutrients, minerals and so on.
I’ve eaten a lot of them for several decades and I feel great with it (and no tooth decay at all). Of course, we must also eat enough raw animal food, but for me the balance is automatic and totally instinctive: I feel when I have eaten enough fruits and thus I look for something else such as vegetables, meat, fish, shellfish or eggs.
Of course, for someone who has never eaten a mango before, eating a lot of mangos for the first time at 30 or 40 years old can trigger detox reactions.
Cheers
François
The most basic thing I just don't understand what you don't consider is: we don't live in a "paleo environment" anymore. We have an abundant food suüply 24/7 (at least in the western world), we breathe polluted air, use computers etc. And the fruits we eat today are of course neolithic food. So how can we say it is possible to rely on our instinct?
I tried fruit and as I reported didnt do well on them. I still doubt it was some "detox" reaction, as I had the same symptoms when trying raw veganism after some years on a vegan diet (where I would of course also eat fruit).
So the conclusion for me would be that sth. in fruit is giving me some inflammation (or whatever it is...).
I wonder: The more plant matter I leave out, the better I feel. So maybe it's really more about what you don't eat than what you do eat.
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The most basic thing I just don't understand what you don't consider is: we don't live in a "paleo environment" anymore. We have an abundant food suüply 24/7 (at least in the western world), we breathe polluted air, use computers etc. And the fruits we eat today are of course neolithic food. So how can we say it is possible to rely on our instinct?
Anyway almost everyone still rely on instinct to eat if hungry, to drink when thirsty, to rest when tired, to lay down when sleepy, to have intercourse with the loved persons, etc. Of course, our alimentary instinct doesn’t work properly at all with cooked, processed and typically Neolithic classes of food such as animal milk and cereals. It doesn’t work perfectly neither with modern intensively selected, cultivated fruits, but that’s the case as well with meat from domesticated animals. So we have to try to find food as wild as possible, be careful with modern fruits and meat; furthermore we should totally avoid “industrial” meat, fruits and vegetables.
There were fruits in the Paleolithic era as there were animals. Both were different then the cultivated and domesticated ones we have today (only wild animals, wild seafood, wild plants and fruits remain roughly identical, at least for some because most species are in constant evolution).
Yes we have abundant supply 24/7 and that’s why we better limit ourselves to two meals a day, for example. The practice of instinctive nutrition doesn’t mean that we totally rely on our instinct, eat whatever we find appetizing at any moment. We also use our intelligence to avoid industrial and Neolithic food, to limit the number of meals, to limit number of different stuff eaten at each meal, amongst other things.
The fact that air is polluted, that we use computer, that we drive cars, that we fly in airplanes has nothing to do with nutrition, and instinctive nutrition concerns nutrition only. There are other natural factors of health, such as clean air, sun, exercise, sleep, social and love relations, etc.
I tried fruit and as I reported didnt do well on them. I still doubt it was some "detox" reaction, as I had the same symptoms when trying raw veganism after some years on a vegan diet (where I would of course also eat fruit).
So the conclusion for me would be that sth. in fruit is giving me some inflammation (or whatever it is...).
I wonder: The more plant matter I leave out, the better I feel. So maybe it's really more about what you don't eat than what you do eat.
Perhaps. But be careful, feeling fine at the moment doesn’t necessarily insure long term health. Another point is that you may have eaten ways too much plant food during your vegan time and that you’re are still missing animal food. So, you may be better at the moment with animal food only and it may take a long time till your nutritional equilibrium is reestablished. But that shouldn’t last for ever, very probably. ;)
Cheers
François
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I've mentioned this before, but it may help here. Years ago when I visited the instinctive center in France (five times over as many years) I started eating raw tuna. I wasn't yet able to think about eating meat the first time I went. I had eaten raw tuna at sushi bars before, but only infrequently. When I returned I ate it often, maybe every other day. For at least a month I had cups of waste material in the toilet. This after years of colonics and all kinds of intestinal cleansing and twenty years on a raw diet. For all of my childhood and years after, tuna was the food my family used most often. I probably ate it three times a week my whole life till I turned raw. So from my point of view, experience, I have witnessed first hand how the body will exchange building blocks, and how cleansing raw protein is.
As far a reactions from fruit: I think a lot has to do with where people are in their tolerance to sugar, in their diet, period. Typically, adulterated fruits are the highest in sugar, hence the ability to sell them. As we age, our ability to control blood sugar weakens or lessens. See Rosedale's articles on insulin and leptin resistance for a more detailed account on how powerfully they affect our hormones and hence our entire system. Any excess sugar feeds all sort of things beyond candida. And we all come from various backgrounds which have left us with less than intact healthy intestinal bacteria. So each of our reactions to sugar will of course be different. Usually those do the best with high sugar or fruit diets are also those who are very very active, and are able to burn off excess sugar in the blood before it can cause hormonal problems or feed things like candida. So as we age, I believe our needs or tolerances change. I look back on the high fruit diets I used to think were healthy and shudder at the thought. But then I really acted out my beliefs to my own detriment.
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...Usually those do the best with high sugar or fruit diets are also those who are very very active, and are able to burn off excess sugar in the blood before it can cause hormonal problems or feed things like candida.
This is a very important point, IMO. Nearly all people who eat large amounts of fruit are running everyday, some of them even marathons. Running, running, running like crazy.
When I was eating high amounts of high sugar fruits, I had always the feeling that I HAVE to run. Somehow this "motivation" to run wasn't very pleasant, it felt unnatural. Because I believed all the natural hygiene nonsense (I started my raw food journey 1999 after reading books from Arnold Ehret and Helmut Wandmaker) I never had the idea that all the fructose acts like a poison in my body. Running seems to be a good way to get rid of the excess sugar. Look at this durianriders - fruitarian. He needs 12 hours sleep (due to sugar overload) and 6-8 hours of bicycling (due to sugar overload).
Löwenherz
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Absolutely!
As far as I can see nearly everyone in our cooked society is in some kind of health trouble from age 50! So many cases just in my neighbourhood with really miserable life quality at relatively young ages.
And I am not talking about teeth fillings and glasses...
Löwenherz
Well there are a number of factors. Cooking is just one of the negative factors of modern (postmodern?) society but eating lots of carbohydrates and glucose rich foods, especially refined foods is another major factor. Simply cutting out such foods would probably do wonders for increasing health and longevity, apart from cooking, though I think eating raw is even better.
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Good point. People seemingly do well on garbage, even adolescents who eat little besides chips, big macs, and soda. Their symptoms usually become prominent when they're 40-50.
I think that there were researchers who noted a time lag for the effects of western foods introduced into "primitive" cultures, of 20 years or more. I suppose there is also a time lag within cultures infected by the refined and cooked food diets as well.
But symptoms start earlier than you think, don't forget about tooth decay. Your teeth are telling you something far in advance of other problems...
Ryan
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I could eat an entire jar of honey in one sitting. Just like I could eat 20 apples at a time. Instincto does not work for me. If I eat these foods and try to limit the quantity I am just left completely unsatisfied and yearning for more. If I eat them until my hearts content I look like I'm pregnant and feel like crap. Grapes? You have to be kidding me. There is no off-switch for grapes, I would put a vineyard out of business. I envy you guys.