Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet => Topic started by: goodsamaritan on February 20, 2010, 10:17:23 pm
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My new health coach has a theory regarding teeth profiles.
The more carnivorous looking a person's teeth is, the more carnivorous he is meant to be.
The same with the flipside, he needs less meat if his teeth look less carnivorous.
He looks at the fang teeth, the more dracula like is more carnivorous.
He thinks my teeth profile shows I need a good amount of meat in my diet which explains why I quickly had malnutrition in raw vegan and fruitarian.
You guys have links or theories with regards to teeth profiling and level of carnivory?
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At one time I would have completely agreed with this theory but DNA doesn't work like that. Just because you get the genes for fang like teeth doesn't mean you also automatically get the genes for a greater need for meat. Although there is probably a greater chance of you getting these genes its not for sure.
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Durianrider seems to have fang/sharp teeth yet hes strongly raw vegan and seems to do very well on it.
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Durianrider is an idiot. He literally spends all his time not trying to promote veganism but actually tries to break up raw paleos. After watching a couple of his more hate filled videos its very obvious.
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He looks at the fang teeth, the more dracula like is more carnivorous.
I'm not sure about this. Dracula drank blood. That's not meat. I do think people with ridiculously strong teeth can tolerate fruitarianism or grain longer.
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Durianrider seems to have fang/sharp teeth yet hes strongly raw vegan and seems to do very well on it.
lol I knew you watched his videos. You can leave the forum now.
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lol I knew you watched his videos. You can leave the forum now.
Good call.
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A little harsh dont you think. I just pointed that fact out because because teeth profiles dont matter.What, do you think i am anti-paleo and pro-raw vegan? Raw Food is Raw food.
I believe I have words of wisdom to share and that is, If you decide to go raw paleo take it slow, fruits and veggies are your friends, just because some people say were carnivores that doesnt mean you will do very well by starting out eating pounds a meat a day. I think most people would generally agree with me on that.
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I use to be raw vegan to so i watched all of his videos.
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fruits and veggies are your friends. I think most people would generally agree with me on that.
They are not my friends, neither are they paleo.
From experience, not BS, I am a fativore.
Moderator's Note:
*** This is the OMNIVOROUS RAW PALEO DIET BOARD, anti-fruit / anti-veg / anti-carbs... take it to the ZERO CARB board ***
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Durian Rider appears manic and lacks muscle. The photos from the recent DRider 30 bananas a day retreat the males look like they are in a concentration camp. It's a little shocking. So I disagree, DR doesn't seem to do well on 30BAD IMO.
To GS you don't need sharp teeth to eat fat.
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we should all take pictures of our teeth or describe them, at least, to see if this holds true.........?
i have fangs ggrrr...top and bottom
>D
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I don't have fangs my teeth are more even length, and raw meat suits me very well, although cooked meat does not.
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Durian Rider appears manic and lacks muscle. The photos from the recent DRider 30 bananas a day retreat the males look like they are in a concentration camp. It's a little shocking. So I disagree, DR doesn't seem to do well on 30BAD IMO.
To GS you don't need sharp teeth to eat fat.
i had a friend who would do this, 30 bananas a day, to run ultra marathons, he has since wised up from raw-vegan dogma and eats local meat and cooked foods...hopefully he will see the light and eat raw meat!!!!!! you can google him-frank giglio- i wish he would not have erased his past raw veganism from teh interweb, but its his life and personal, it was just weird/interesting to see the evolution of his diet/health and the first time he drank raw dairy and how his body was totally addicted/thankful for the protein he had been deprived
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counting from the first two front teeth as # 1, my number #3 tooth in on top and bottom is shaped like a primitive arrowhead, is that good? :)
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I tried briefly to find pics from the above mentioned 'retreat'. after coming across a retreat presented by a guy I've seen on another forum, who has been doing the program for probably less then 6 months and is already totally emaciated, I got disgusted and left.
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How can one not say that durianrider seems to do well if the man is winning races/marathons. In my opinion beginners should start eating mostly fruits and veggies/juices, and slowly start adding more and more animal foods and get to a point where one feels comfortable with a specific amount and uncomfortable with too much. But maybe i am just saying this because i am under the suspicions that too much raw meat can be deterimental or even raw meat itself.
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I would think that the reason our teeth are less vicious than other predators is because we have hands... They use their teeth to attack and maim, not just to eat.
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How can one not say that durianrider seems to do well if the man is winning races/marathons. In my opinion beginners should start eating mostly fruits and veggies/juices, and slowly start adding more and more animal foods and get to a point where one feels comfortable with a specific amount and uncomfortable with too much. But maybe i am just saying this because i am under the suspicions that too much raw meat can be deterimental or even raw meat itself.
We have tried fruits and veggies/juices, and all found it does not work.
Of course too much raw meat can be detrimental; it's called rabbit starvation, and the answer is to add fat, not evil carbs.
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pc, I don't like to bag on others and do believe myself that there are more than one approach to healthful living and eating. That said, those of us who've experienced being on high fruit diets for years can relate to some of the issues he seems to exhibit, irratibility, lack of muscle, etc...I havn't been paying attention in the past year or two, but to my knowledge he doesn't win races, semi-rightly blaiming how much dopeing in the sport there is. Seeing since he seems to follow the program as closely as possibly under the most ideal of circumstances (being in the tropics, eating fruit off trees most part of the year, having no amalgams, eating a range of fruits including fattier fruits etc...) his 'results' seem to be a poor model esp. for folks simply manufacturing the same macronutrient ratios in places like Canada for instance.
Remember, 811 is basically a pureified version of tradtional carb burning values a la Ornish etc...
high carb eating, especially raw fruit yields plenty of manic energy usable for sport, just because this is 'naturally occurring' doesn't make the assumption that it is healthier long term than things like drugs other athletes consume when it comes to adrenals etc... The arguments that fruits contain all the essential aminos, proteins and minerals etc...and eating 1000s upon thousands of calories above basel metapbolic cannot yield observable muscle growth is issue enough to suspect, other than the brain issues which are also protein/fat related.
I'm curious about your advise for beginners, is this because you found jumping 100% to RAF minus vegetation and fruits to cause problems for yourself? how long did you you try this?
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Not all. only a minority. Go ask lex and tell him if zero-carb is such a good idea. Plant foodd have healed alot of people, and i think it would be a disservice to people to say not eat it.
It's too bad you cant enjoy a some delicious fruits for yourself william.
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I dont think it matters how people look, but how they feel. There are alot of people who do well in the start of raw veganism, I gave the advice because it seems more safe for me.
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There are alot of people who do well in the start of raw veganism, I gave the advice because it seems more safe for me.
Are you raw vegan now? If so, how long do you plan to stay so?
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Yes, due to trying to fix some kidney related problems.
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Yes, due to trying to fix some kidney related problems.
I had kidney problems too, that raw vegan didn't help. Raw meat does it for me, and raw cultured grass grazed butter. Have you tried other approaches for your kidneys in addition to diet? Kidney problems can be sad, scary, really bad. I hope yours get better soon so you can eat better again soon. When did your kidney problems start? Who advises you on diet changes?
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I dont think it matters how people look, but how they feel.
ok, I think that is pretty dangerous thinking, sure I felt great on fruits up until I didn't feel good on fruits, this seems to be common experience. Does this mean all my internal issues and functioning also went on my 'feel good' ride, definitely not. Either way, the physical principals I touched on holds true, there is a difference between not caring about being thin, and literally being unable to build muscle, regardless of food intake (if one is claiming the foods to be 'perfect' and only requirement for health). Not to mention the actual damage of massive fruit sugar, which is touched on by many vegans as well, having had lots of experience with many fruitarians prior to the recent 811 craze.
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No i have not tried other approaches, I have had some symptoms before going RPD/before starting to eat raw meat, but symptoms began growing once introducing raw meat. I read there have been people who cured their kidney problems through raw-veganism. The only real symptom I have currently to rely on is my very slight dark under eyes and very slight puffy eyes. Yes rabbit-starvation is bad, but i ate fat with my meals.
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your "internal issues and functioning" fruitarianism is probably the best way to heal digestive problems since fruits are easily digestable. Only you know if your internal issues and functioning is off.
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did you read this online somewhere? What are you talking about only I would know? yes I spent almost 2 years eating foods that required "no digestion", and I showed far more signs of mineral deficiency and other issues that I did not have before. Was it 100% useless and harmful? probably not. That still doesn't make it a healthful strategy. I would look into something like Daniel Vitalis or something, who talks about these cleansing myths, that will inevitably be very harmful if at a certain point one doesn't turn to foods that actually contain necessary minerals and fat soluable vitamins.
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I never said it would not lead to mineral defeciencies, I said fruitarianism might clear up inflamtion in GI tract, even goodsamaratin says this.
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ok, I apologize if my choice of words was confusing
when I said "internal issues and functioning"
I meant, just because I felt good didn't mean my health on a cellular level, and also health of internal organs (kidney, liver etc..) were not suffering in some way.
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I think your internal organs would be fine and in perfect order, just that ones energy levels would be low.
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I never said it would not lead to mineral defeciencies, I said fruitarianism might clear up inflamtion in GI tract, even goodsamaratin says this.
I think there is a place for many approaches for various ailments, but if you have been following forums like vegsource etc.. like I have even before the 811 book came out, you'd realize that the most common ailment people come to such a diet with is IBS, Chrons etc..and many years later people talk about flare ups are returning to extreme water fasting etc...
Why would there be ANY instances of flare ups if these things were a.) indeed cured b.) fruit doesn't bother intestinal tract or require any real digestion c.) the absurd notion that the colon is a smooth tube
I think your internal organs would be fine and in perfect order, just that ones energy levels would be low.
nope, never had a problem with low energy, quite the opposite, lack of sleep/mania complete emaciation etc...
no offence, but your 'thoughts' on the long term effects of fruit diets on the liver and kidneys do not mean much to me at this point
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whatever, I still think it's better to put a healthy cooked food eater firstly on fruits and vegeatbles and slowly progress to more and more meats rather than directly putting one on a carnivorous diet. It just makes more sense.
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It's too bad you cant enjoy a some delicious fruits for yourself william.
Info on paleolithic fruit locally available is welcome. I'm not holding my breath.
Until I find some, I will continue with the proven healing of rawpaleofood.
whatever, I still think it's better to put a healthy cooked food eater firstly on fruits and vegeatbles and slowly progress to more and more meats rather than directly putting one on a carnivorous diet. It just makes more sense.
Eating sugar bombs loaded with antinutrients makes no sense to me. Neither does the inevitable mineral deficiency which causes all disease.
Moderator's Note:
*** This is the OMNIVOROUS RAW PALEO DIET BOARD, anti-fruit / anti-veg / anti-carbs... take it to the ZERO CARB board ***
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whatever, I still think it's better to put a healthy cooked food eater firstly on fruits and vegeatbles and slowly progress to more and more meats rather than directly putting one on a carnivorous diet. It just makes more sense.
When I started RAF, I had been eating healthy cooked food. All my food was organically grown. I was eating no wheat, no soy, no factory farmed foods. I was vegan. I was half dead. I could not digest half an orange. I started raw this last time about four years ago 100& full on, only cultured grass grazed raw butter and nothing else to eat or drink for a week. It made me feel better than I have ever felt in my life. I hope you're not advising people like me, and if you are, it's ok, as I didn't take advice, I forged my path with my knowledge. People can always steer another person wrong.
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whatever, I still think it's better to put a healthy cooked food eater firstly on fruits and vegeatbles and slowly progress to more and more meats rather than directly putting one on a carnivorous diet. It just makes more sense.
you might be right about that, it is subjective. like i said I don't think my raw veganism was completely a wash. But this will most likely be ones trajectory with RAF, as it makes more sense to people who have tried all other approaches. the other option would be transitioning from a cooked paleo/primal approach, which many find much healthier than raw vegan.
But, the OP was about teeth and your first response was about DR doing well, and the merits of fruit eating, which is what we have been discussing now.
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I never said it would not lead to mineral defeciencies, I said fruitarianism might clear up inflamtion in GI tract, even goodsamaratin says this.
Didn't gs say frutarianism wore him out and cooked pork fixed his GI? I don't recommend cooked pork, but he did not say it was the same as fruit.
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Yes he did say it wore him out. but i think he also said it's a good diet to restore digestive health, i may be wrong on this though. When the time comes when i feel i need some meat then i start eating fish, bone marrow, eggs but only in small amounts. Before I just started eating lots of red meat at every meal even though i was not in the mood, because i believed in was allright and it will make one healthy.I didnt listen to my body, things were getting a little worse and yet my mind stayed and went the other way.
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What kind of teeth do you have, pc? You haven't said. Did you quit paleo in August and not start paleo again? Or quit paleo in August at which point start a version of RVAF? I liked your posts up until today. Why did they change?
http://cavemanforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=f16f12944b4609a224273ee03a3e724d&topic=1517.msg12153#msg12153 (http://cavemanforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=f16f12944b4609a224273ee03a3e724d&topic=1517.msg12153#msg12153)
we should all take pictures of our teeth or describe them, at least, to see if this holds true.........?
i have fangs ggrrr...top and bottom
>D
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Before I just started eating lots of red meat at every meal even though i was not in the mood, because i believed in was allright and it will make one healthy.I didnt listen to my body, things were getting a little worse and yet my mind stayed and went the other way.
I started on all butter; because that what my body and mind told me after all the reading and internet searches in combination with learning by living I had from the past. Within a few weeks, I not only could eat orange, but even sub-par quality orange did not give me trouble.
I'm sorry about the previous post. You're probably having an off day. My moods did not stabilize as well either when I didn't eat RAF. I sincerely hope you get better soon and start eating well.
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that was a different me rawzi, we all change. long-time ago. I cant even remember that. I did that diet all wrong. My teeth are sharp.
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I would think that the reason our teeth are less vicious than other predators is because we have hands... They use their teeth to attack and maim, not just to eat.
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It may also be good to start with some light raw animal foods such as eggs,bone marrow, and fish. then you can move onto land animals. land animals might be more difficult to digest than fish.
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We have tried fruits and veggies/juices, and all found it does not work.
Of course too much raw meat can be detrimental; it's called rabbit starvation, and the answer is to add fat, not evil carbs.
William, you must remember I started this thread in the OMNIVOROUS raw paleo diet board.
So FRUITS and VEGETABLES are considered PALEO DIET in this board.
FRUITS and VEGETABLES are our FRIENDS.
FYI.
Moderator's Note:
*** This is the OMNIVOROUS RAW PALEO DIET BOARD, anti-fruit / anti-veg / anti-carbs... take it to the ZERO CARB board ***
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How can one not say that durianrider seems to do well if the man is winning races/marathons. In my opinion beginners should start eating mostly fruits and veggies/juices, ....
pc701 are you aware that that person has in his videos and blog posts taunted and insulted all raw Paleo and Primal dieters and basically called us idiots in a variety of ways while laughing at us? Why would you refer to him in this forum?
Have you read any of the posts at the 811 and raw vegan forums and noticed how the people there tend to be complaining much more about negative symptoms than us here, and getting criticized for daring to speak the truth or told that it's just "detox"? The 811ers post more sickly reports and photos than any other dieters I've seen on forums short of breatharians. Why anyone other than suicidal people would want to follow their example is beyond me. If one has an ethical problem with eating meats then there are other vegetarian/vegan approaches that seem to be less damaging than 811.
William, GS has good points. I've found it best to speak for myself rather than try to speak for everyone.
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Yes i am aware of what DRider says about us.He has his own opinions. I just think some people may do well with lots of meat and fat in their diet, and others may not. I offered my advice regarding RPD for begginers because i thought it made sense,it's just my opinion on what may help people, do whatever approach works for you.
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Yes i am aware of what DRider says about us.He has his own opinions. I just think some people may do well with lots of meat and fat in their diet, and others may not. I offered my advice regarding RPD for begginers because i thought it made sense,it's just my opinion on what may help people, do whatever approach works for you.
I heartily agree with you. ;)
In my opinion beginners should start eating mostly fruits and veggies/juices, ....
I experienced the same experience as pc701. I started with raw vegan, raw fruitarian first. Simply because my diseased state at that time did not allow me to digest large quantities of raw meat or cooked meat or raw fats or cooked fats or much animal food. See the eczema / psoriasis experts. Dr. Tsai and Dr. Pagano's books... animal foods < 30%
When I was diseased my liver and gall bladder was loaded with lots and lots of liver stones. When I had cleansed myself and got rid of the stones and the bile flowed well, I was then able to add more and more animal foods to my diet.
I adjust my fruit / veg / animal intake according to what I feel and see fit to do so. And I expect it to change as I progress and get older.
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Yes i am aware of what DRider says about us.He has his own opinions. I just think some people may do well with lots of meat and fat in their diet, and others may not. ...
That's fine, I just wish you would reference more reasonable people like Paul Nison, John Kohler, etc. who haven't waged open war on us.
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By starting your raw food journey on a omnivore diet high in fruits and vegetables instead of a carnivore diet your more likely to find the foods that suit you and in the right amount.If you find that you gradually move towards being carnivore, then hey that good for you, but at least you learned.
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By starting your raw food journey on a omnivore diet high in fruits and vegetables instead of a carnivore diet your more likely to find the foods that suit you and in the right amount.If you find that you gradually move towards being carnivore, then hey that good for you, but at least you learned.
I did exactly that.
It took me ~10 years of suffering increasing damage from whatever caused my so-called terminal and incurable modern disease before I finally tried RZC, and the damage stopped.
It left me with a damaged nervous system and a weak heart and other problems.
I believe on the basis of my experience and the work of Rosedale, Taubes, Stefansson, Donaldson and others who support the paleolithic diet that the cause of my disease and others in equally desperate condition including cancer is high blood sugar/insulin resistance.
To suggest that those who need help do as I did is as callous and ignorant as any modern allopathic physician.
Your advice might be OK for those starting a "raw food journey", but for those who come here seeking help with healing, it can be a way to death or permanent disability.
BTW GS, I have what is considered paleolithic fruit in my freezer, and I eat some whenever I feel like it. This has been one cup in the last two months.
They are called blueberries.
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So your saying you were on a raw omnivore diet for 10 years williams?
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By starting your raw food journey on a omnivore diet high in fruits and vegetables instead of a carnivore diet your more likely to find the foods that suit you and in the right amount.If you find that you gradually move towards being carnivore, then hey that good for you, but at least you learned.
It depends on how much time you have to learn. I was too sick and I had too much dependent on me in the near future to be dawdling around back and forth between all kinds of diets when I went raw last time. I had already done all the health diets over several decades except regular SAD and any kind of RAF. I read tons night and day for six months and came to the conclusion I needed fats first but that I would be on the path of low carb high fat majority animal foods all raw. Then I dove in. For some people it's just right to think it out for themselves, and then take a big plunge into what is right for them. I am still learning, but I still feel raw omnivore suits me best.
Have you read Lex's testimonial on Raw Paleo Diet . com?
http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/lex-rooker-usa/ (http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/lex-rooker-usa/)
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It is very enlightening for William to share his own experience. It shows that healing is an individual thing for people.
We are lucky the founders of this forum Craig and Geoff decided to make it all encompassing so people are free to adjust their practice of RPD according to their needs at that point in their life.
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I agree, some people may not have the time. But the question still remains, is it best/safe to just dive into a zero-carb pure fat and meat diet or something more varied and open like raw omnivore?
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I agree, some people may not have the time. But the question still remains, is it best/safe to just dive into a zero-carb pure fat and meat diet or something more varied and open like raw omnivore?
Zero carb would have been a disaster for me to go zero carb in my former diseased state.
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I agree, some people may not have the time. But the question still remains, is it best/safe to just dive into a zero-carb pure fat and meat diet or something more varied and open like raw omnivore?
I think it probably depends on individual variables. I wouldn't make a broad prescription that everyone start with raw omnivore diet containing fruits, vegetables, eggs, bone marrow, and fish before trying any land mammal flesh.
I say find what works best for you as an individual, and be award of potential problems (like dental problems from too much fruit, kidney stone risks in a diet containing lots of animal protein with insufficient water, early difficulty some have digesting high amounts of fats, etc.).
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I agree, some people may not have the time. But the question still remains, is it best/safe to just dive into a zero-carb pure fat and meat diet or something more varied and open like raw omnivore?
From experience, it is safe to eat only the essential nutrients, without which we die.
The engineering motto works here - K.I.S.S.
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I've not been on the forum for a few weeks due to professional commitments during the week and domestic commitments during the weekend, so it's nice to come back to a thread like this...
I have big fangs on top and bottom, which is great, considering that my jaw was underdeveloped enough to crowd those fangs up a little (if I knew about Weston Price's studies when I was a fuetus/infant/child, I would've informed my mother, who was at least prudent enough to breast feed me for 18 months).
Meat and fat feel great and perfect for my own taste/bite...
Nevertheless, along with the anecdote has to come some understanding/science/physiology/pathology and precipitates that have crystallised out of solution in the various channels/ducts/organs should be a focus of anyone trying to heal the complete cellular metabolism, be it bone, skin, brain, endothelial cells, GI tract, blood, lymphatics etc.
Particularly, the cholelithiasis (debris and then tissue pathology in the biliary/liver/GB system) and nephrolithiasis (debris and then tissue pathology in the urinary/kidney system) should be of great concern, given that after the upstream blood/lymph/tissues/organs, these are the primary organs of elimination. Any pathology in the liver can result in a pathology of the kidneys, and vice versa.
I've noticed constipation and dark eye circles related to increased meat/fat consumption, which is definitely not a hallmark of healing - something I attribute to inter-related DEFICIENT liver/kidney function. Furthermore, I cannot maintain a decent BASAL METABOLIC RATE when eating only fruits and meat+fat, plus I believe that excessive nut/seed consumption represents too much PUFA in the diet, which I don't have the vitamin E or ORAC status to counter sufficiently.
As always (at least for me), the cosmos seems to be presenting me with a catch-22 scenario and that ain't good.
Personally, in my opinion (which is also wisely stated by goodsamaritan), it's necessary to clear debris in the elimination organs before embarking on our true heritage diet. Some people here think that you only need food to heal, yet there are many other tools to streamline healing - goodsamaritan seems to be one of the only ones here to embrace that, along with myself.
For example, any deficiency in bile production and liver/GB contraction definitely means a diminished ability to uptake fat and fat-soluble vitamins.
Decades of poor diet/lifestyle results in crystallisation of solids out of solution (and in most cases calcification) in the many passageways and chambers of the body/organs, which don't normalise with a paleo diet, therefore, other tools are required (herbs/tinctures, cleansing/flushing).
Does anyone know about the beneficial effect of small amounts of juniper berries on the urinary system - maybe it's a good choice for blending into pemmicans or further drying and grinding with salt/pepper onto raw meat?
Currently, I'm trying to heal my teeth on raw paleo and I consider increasing my bile output to be priority number 1 in this endeavour.
Furthermore, I imagine that most of you somehow listen to Patrick Timpone's podcasts and he often mentions the "digestive bitters" formula for stimulating digestion - that's probably a great interim measure while people are trying to become "stone free" in their organs of elimination. I live in the UK, so I probably wouldn't buy that formula, but I make my own teas/tinctures, so complexing such a formula myself would not be too challenging.
Another great tool for keeping bile moving/liquid is Apple Cider Vinegar (even though it absolutely destroys tooth enamel on contact - rinse before use and immediately afterwards with sodium bicarbonate). Apple cider vinegar has the potent malic acid content, yet without the nasty sugar spike from apple juice - perfect in the week build up to emptying the liver/GB/ducts with a flush!
KISS is a great approach, if you have non-impaired elimination organ function...My motto is that food cannot save you alone and simplicity comes through a wiser understanding, hence the Egyptian cosmological axiom "as above, so below"...
Medicine existed in the pre-neolithic period, so let's embrace those tools.
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Another thing is that it's health to read raw vegan blogs/forums, just to accumulate all the great ideas for preparing benign plant foods, which include beneficial anti-oxidants, minerals/vitamins/co-factors and weak organic acids - all of these things are beneficial to the human physiology.
Of course, there are also the great ferments with their complement of organic acids for detoxifying in a very toxic world.
It's a shame that non-heirloom fruits contain massive sugar imbalances, which are not greatly beneficial for the paleo-wannabe.
Does anyone read about the GAPS diet, particularly with a focus on increasing collagen/gelatin intake for healing+sealing an over-permeable gut? I've been grinding my own bone meal recently (thanks to great advice about farrier rasps from my friends here) and I wondered if anyone knew if this powder/meal contains collagen, like bone broths do (I imagine that there is). I somehow almost always feel great after a couple of tablespoons of raw grass-fed bone meal (usually eat it with some marrow from the same bone).
Also, does anyone know about lipid peroxide levels in long-aged "high" meat, which could be a source of radicals, unless it's protected by the lactic acid fermentation from native cultures?
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Does anyone read about the GAPS diet, particularly with a focus on increasing collagen/gelatin intake for healing+sealing an over-permeable gut? I've been grinding my own bone meal recently (thanks to great advice about farrier rasps from my friends here) and I wondered if anyone knew if this powder/meal contains collagen, like bone broths do (I imagine that there is). I somehow almost always feel great after a couple of tablespoons of raw grass-fed bone meal (usually eat it with some marrow from the same bone).
I was not aware of this but it's a very helpful lead for me. Thank you MrBBQ. :)
Guess it's time to locate a farrier rasp in earnest...
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That's what I did pc707. It's little steps at a time. Initially after going paleo(cooked meat) I kept going back to grains now and again, learning that they were bad and then after a while had none. Gradually I stopped having anything with added salt as I learnt myself through accumulation of experience that it wasn't good for me. Same was happening with fruits. Gradually I was having less and less. Initially for digestion issues, and later more and more linking them to all inflammation and reducing them until eliminating. Still a few times I've gone back and had some fruit and it's given me the problems each time and the amount of times I've gone back to them has decreased. A part of that is learning what I am lacking(sleep, fat, meat, frequency, water) which could('ve) be causing me to go back to them occasionally.
Late.. must..sleep.. gnigh.t.t
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A part of that is learning what I am lacking(sleep, fat, meat, frequency, water) which could('ve) be causing me to go back to them occasionally.
Frequency?
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That's what I did pc707. It's little steps at a time. Initially after going paleo(cooked meat) I kept going back to grains now and again, learning that they were bad and then after a while had none. ...
Pretty much same story for me--except with fruits instead of grains. I'd like to be able to eat some fruits, both for safety margin (re: kidney stones and other claimed risks) and a bit of variety and socially fitting in, but my experiments with them have all been negative so far. I seem to be able to tolerate berries and grapes best, so I'm hoping I'll be able to eat some of those. Rawzi's idea of mixing berries with animal/fish fat in the Yupik way seems like a good one that I'll probably try next.
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It seems ridiculous to avoid fruit, given that the human organism has the metabolic pathways for processing the associated substances (fructose metabolism via liver etc.). What about the pigment-richness of diverse fruits and their associated anti-oxidant status, i.e. polyphenolic compounds, beta carotenes, tocotrienols etc.
Maybe there's some underlying cause for the intolerance (i.e. causality rather than symptomatology), which needs to be "weeded out" and addressed.
The experiential dynamic of our reality should teach us that nothing is ever quite what it seems - hence the cosmology of dualism. Stay open-minded like a true child of the universe, LOL!
I urge you to read other people (especially physiologists and endocrinologists) outside of raw/non-raw paleo dogma.
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Pretty much same story for me--except with fruits instead of grains. I'd like to be able to eat some fruits, both for safety margin (re: kidney stones and other claimed risks) and a bit of variety and socially fitting in, but my experiments with them have all been negative so far. I seem to be able to tolerate berries and grapes best, so I'm hoping I'll be able to eat some of those. Rawzi's idea of mixing berries with animal/fish fat in the Yupik way seems like a good one that I'll probably try next.
I can eat fruits but tiny bit at a time. For exemple, half a banana, or a kiwi. A modest amount of sugar/fibers is OK !
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I too can tolerate a small amount of blueberries once in a long while, but why bother?
They are not essential nutrient, and don't seem to do any good.
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I too can tolerate a small amount of blueberries once in a long while, but why bother?
They are not essential nutrient, and don't seem to do any good.
That's your experience. None mine. My one year experience of ZC shows me that carbs are essential for my health.
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Are you sure it's carbs that are essential? There are more things in plants, and it could be some micro-nutrient that is doing good.
I'm thinking of grass-eating cats.
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That's your experience. None mine. My one year experience of ZC shows me that carbs are essential for my health.
Neither mine. William, you just cannot safely draw the conclusions you draw about carbs from your own experience.
I'm also an homo sapiens and I'm on RPD and eat carbs or plant foods routinely for 11 years now and I'm quite well, having apparently cured my ailments as you have. And this is merely at odds with your hasty and pretentious conclusions.
There are so much things we simply don't yet know. Things are obviously not that simple as "carbs are bad" for ZC devotees or "meat is bad" for vegan devotees etc...
I suggest ZC devotees take as an example the cautious and balanced posts of Lex in his journal and use them as food for thought.
I certainly do not claim that "ZC is bad" because I eat carbs. And I am very amused by ZCarbers who claim that "carbs are bad" because they don't eat carbs. ;)
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Are you sure it's carbs that are essential? There are more things in plants, and it could be some micro-nutrient that is doing good.
I'm thinking of grass-eating cats.
Yes, my body definitively requires carbs to function properly. On a carnivorous diet, I simply overeat protein and fat to compensate for the lack of carbs. Not good at all...
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It seems ridiculous to avoid fruit, given that the human organism has the metabolic pathways for processing the associated substances (fructose metabolism via liver etc.). What about the pigment-richness of diverse fruits and their associated anti-oxidant status, i.e. polyphenolic compounds, beta carotenes, tocotrienols etc.
Just as William or my ZC experience doesn't necessarily apply to all, so your experience with fruit doesn't necessarily apply to all. I think discussion improves when we focus on sharing our experiences rather than trying to apply them to everyone.
As I mentioned, I WANT to be able to eat raw fruit, but find I generally don't do well on even small amounts of it. I think berries may be the least offensive of the lot for me, so I intend to experiment some more with them, and probably add animal fat to them to see if that helps. I also recommend reading Lex's journal posts, especially the ones about the supposedly magical ingredients in fruits and veg, such as the ones you mentioned.
I urge you to read other people (especially physiologists and endocrinologists) outside of raw/non-raw paleo dogma.
Are you claiming that I or someone else here doesn't do this? Do you have any specific ones to recommend?
Stay open-minded like a true child of the universe, LOL!
Yes, my own approach is not to assume that either all carbs are bad or that I need carbs to function. I consider that pretty open-minded.
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If the reason for some people thriving either on RZC or raw omnivorous rawpalaeo is simply due to some faulty digestive system as a result of decades on a SAD diet, then, presumably, after some lengthy period(10-30 years?), RZCers should be able to handle raw omnivorous diets without hassle and raw omnivores could handle a raw zero-carb diet without issues either. Obviously not taking into account the inevitable transitional effects of switching to either diet from the other.
So far, I haven't seen any difference in my RZC trials after 3 and 6 years into raw omnivorous rawpalaeo. Maybe, I'll try again after 11 years have passed.
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As I mentioned, I WANT to be able to eat raw fruit, but find I generally don't do well on even small amounts of it. I think berries may be the least offensive of the lot for me, so I intend to experiment some more with them, and probably add animal fat to them to see if that helps.
The less you eat a food, the less you'll be able to digest it properly (loss of required enzymes, etc.). The more you eat it, the more you'll be able to handle it. For example, some long time vegans cannot digest even a little bit of raw meat. I found that after one year of ZC, I could not handle even a modest amount of fruits. Now it is much better, even if fibers will remain a big problem for me.
I also recommend reading Lex's journal posts, especially the ones about the supposedly magical ingredients in fruits and veg, such as the ones you mentioned.
Nobody believes in magic components in whatever food. The fact remains that plant food contains known and unknown nutrients that we are adapted to.
Yes, my own approach is not to assume that either all carbs are bad or that I need carbs to function. I consider that pretty open-minded.
Wise attitude.
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The less you eat a food, the less you'll be able to digest it properly (loss of required enzymes, etc.).
I had no problems with digesting cherries and peaches last summer after 9 months of RZC.
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Typically, I agree with everyone, although I did say "seems ridiculous" rather than "is ridiculous" on the matter of fruit eating - that was more a nod to the fact that domestic fruits are nowadays higher in sugar/fructose, plus there's the matter of salicylate sensitivity, which plagues a few on here - a la the coconut oil cramps etc. (maybe check www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.info (http://www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.info)).
@PaleoPhil: Have you read any of Melvin Page's books? What about the passages on www.raypeat.com (http://www.raypeat.com) (wildly interesting!)?
I'll acknowledge that both too much meat/fat and too much fruit results in poor day-to-day health for me, so I'm considering some denser carbs in the form of pseudo-grains, non-gluten grains and maybe potatoes (as of the so-called optimal diet). I hate(!) to undermine paleo in this way, but frankly, it's not servicing my good health. I will be experimenting with high meat/fat/carbs over the next few weeks, with some light (I know, not exactly non-toxic) heat application, just to see if my health is facilitated.
This is not a reckless move, but on the back of reading diverse blogs that aren't exactly pro-lo-carb+raw. Suffice to say that all of my animal foods, fruits and fermented vegetables/beverages will be raw, along with the addition of cooked starches (did you say Maillard-facilitated Acrylamide formation?!) in an attempt to raise my metabolism, which high-fat RAF has failed to do thus far. I could imagine that our ancestors diversified when their health was not facilitated (a la the robust peoples reported by WAP), so I feel confident to follow in their footsteps, albeit with the greatest respect for maintaining my high RVAF intake.
Low PUFA intake is assumed, so I won't be buying any more F-CLO in the short term, replacing instead with a D3 supplement and ruminant liver. I've also found a new source for game, so that will be nice to include, plus I've found a source for raw Jersey cream, so that may be useful as a short term boost of fat-soluble vitamins.
I'm also beginning to wonder how healed+sealed my permeable gut lining is, so I will up my intake of homemade raw bone meal.
Also, I really appreciate this community, so don't be thinking for a moment that I'm trying to undermine anyone, when I'm actually just trying to stimulate creativity and bring the best out in anyone/everyone - without sounding corny, that is...Maybe I will get myself a glucose meter and do the metrics thing...
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I'll acknowledge that both too much meat/fat and too much fruit results in poor day-to-day health for me
Too much meat/fat is bad for me too, but no problems as yet with tallow/meat.
I can't seem to eat too much tallow.
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My new health coach has a theory regarding teeth profiles.
The more carnivorous looking a person's teeth is, the more carnivorous he is meant to be.
The same with the flipside, he needs less meat if his teeth look less carnivorous.
He looks at the fang teeth, the more dracula like is more carnivorous.
...
I checked out images of teeeth, and my canines are more pronounced than the images I've found, such as these:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:YpuIowL1XW60oM:http://cdn-write.demandstudios.com/upload//0000/700/60/9/10769.jpg)
(http://cosmeticsurgerytoday.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/teeth-whitening.jpg?w=163&h=163)
...even though my canines are worn down some by past night grinding. I never noticed this before. Thanks GS, maybe there's something to this. Does your health coach have any sources to refer me to learn more about this?
The less you eat a food, the less you'll be able to digest it properly (loss of required enzymes, etc.).
We'll see. Right from the very beginning when I first started making small cutbacks on carbs but was still eating plenty of them I experienced improvements. So my problems with them didn't start only after being on ZC for a while. So far I haven't noticed any increase in problems in handling fruits when I do try them, just the same problems and same severity as before. When I initially eliminated gluten, those times I ate some again (whether intentionally or unintentionally), I experienced very severe reactions that gradually lessened over time. I suspect that this is because my gut is less leaky and my immune system is calmer. With fruits I haven't noticed any changes one way or another.
Nobody believes in magic components in whatever food.
I'm skeptical of that claim--especially when it comes to the 811ers. Many of their posts do suggest such beliefs. Lex has written brilliantly about it in the past. I think he is even more skeptical of the outlandish vegan/fruitarian claims than I am.
The fact remains that plant food contains known and unknown nutrients that we are adapted to.
And the fact remains that we still understand little about them and for whatever reason, neither Lex, William nor I experience the tremendous benefits from plant foods that the 811ers claim, and I never have--even when I thought that many of the claims about antioxidants and such were probably true. Because I was so swayed by those claims I continued eating lots of plant foods even as they were sickening me. Based on Lex's journal, it sounds like the same was true for him. I wish it weren't so and I understand that this is probably hard for people to accept who do very well on plant foods, but the truth is what it is, whether I or anyone else likes it or not. It's important for people to know that not everyone does great eating tons of plant foods, so they don't make the same mistake that Lex and I made.
The same appears to be true re: ZC--not everyone is suited to that either--which Tyler and others can speak to with their negative ZC experiences.
One thing I find is that no matter how thoroughly you test things and how carefully you try to follow people's instructions, some of them will still claim that you didn't do something right and you will do well on lots of <fill in the blank--often raw fruit> if you just make the right combinations or start out with small amounts or follow some other intricate instructions perfectly. Then if you follow those instructions and still don't do well, they create new instructions or say you're just "detoxing" or claim you weren't quite perfect enough. I don't pay much attention to those sorts of instructions and claims any more. I've found them to be very detrimental to my health. Based on Lex's reports on vegan eating and Tyler's reports on raw dairy, it sounds like they've had similar experiences. No matter how many ill effects we report from the foods that effect us negatively, some people will never accept that those foods (usually raw dairy or raw fruit, which seem to be holy-grail foods for some people for some reason) harm us.
@PaleoPhil: Have you read any of Melvin Page's books? What about the passages on www.raypeat.com (http://www.raypeat.com) (wildly interesting!)?
I read some of Ray Peat's stuff--mostly years ago. I don't recall Melvin Page.
I'll acknowledge that both too much meat/fat and too much fruit results in poor day-to-day health for me, so I'm considering some denser carbs in the form of pseudo-grains, non-gluten grains and maybe potatoes (as of the so-called optimal diet).
I am intrigued by the examples of tribal peoples appearing to do well on starchy diets, such as the Kitavans and Peter of Hyperlipids' example of a "vegetarian" Bantu tribe and would like to learn more about it. One thing that has puzzled me from early on is that most HG tribes eat plenty of cooked tubers like yams when they're available in their habitat. Doesn't guarantee they're healthy, but it does raise questions. I think Dr. Cordain even allows for yams and some potatoes in the diets of athletes.
I'm considering some denser carbs ... (as of the so-called optimal diet...in an attempt to raise my metabolism, which high-fat RAF has failed to do thus far.
Peter of Hyperlipid is a good source re: that approach and follows a modified version of it himself, I believe.