Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: Savage on February 04, 2010, 01:12:00 am
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I've been ZC for almost a year and raw for only a couple of weeks. I've been eating raw: beef, liver and heart all grain fed and ground together in 2lb bags, a couple of lamb heads (brain, tongue and eyes), beef blood and femur bones for marrow.
I'm waiting for my order from slankers, I ordered 70lbs of the pet-food mix with 2-3 organs cause that's the only grass-fed I can afford.
I have a couple of questions:
1-I fight and workout, only supps I still take are 1g calcium citrate, ZMA before bed, a multi with food and sometimes use lite salt(Potassium/sodium mix), I know most people say calcium(and supps in general) is not needed for bones but I get a lot of impact from fighting and working out 3 times a week and I don't see myself slowing down anytime soon, should I drop or keep the supps and why?
This is what I would consume everyday on average for life:
-Pet food mix from slankers (everyday, as long as it turns out fine) or the grain fed muscle/fat/liver/heart mix when I run out.
-Beef Blood / grain-fed (everyday)
-Femur bones/grain-fed (few times a week)
-Cow/lamb/pig heads / grain-fed (few times a week)
2-The beef blood is mixed with sodium citrate (an anti clotting agent I'm guessing) any negative effects?
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Are you grinding and eating the femur bones?
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Are you grinding and eating the femur bones?
Sawing in half and scooping the marrow out with my fingers.
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I eat Slankers Pet food as well as their Ground Beef. My general approach has been to eat things in their natural proportions. Muscle meats make up about 2/3s to 3/4s the meat in an animal so I try to mix my overall food in about the same ratio – 2/3s high fat ground beef to 1/3 high organ content pet food. This has worked well for me for about 4 years. It is also quite economical.
I don’t purchase anything extra except suet as even the high fat ground beef is often a bit too lean for my taste. They say it is 78% lean and 22% fat, but that is by raw weight. In other words, they take about 78 lbs of very lean meat and mix it with 22 lbs of fat to make 100 lbs of ground meat. Raw fat is about 35% to 40% water and non-fatty tissue which means that only 13 lbs of actual fat is being added or 13%. Normal lean meat is about 4% fat so the total actual fat for Slanker’s High Fat Ground Beef is about 17%. I prefer a real fat content of around 25%. I have a commercial fat analyzer and measure the actual fat content of every batch of meat I order. It always comes in right around 17% plus or minus 1% or so.
My normal monthly order from Slankers is 18 lbs of High Organ Content pet food, 38 lbs of High Fat Ground Beef, and 8 lbs of beef fat or suet.
My normal mix is 2 lbs of Pet food, 4 lbs of Ground Beef, and ¾ lb ground fat or suet. The ¾ lb of extra fat adds about 8% fat to the overall mix for a total real fat content of about 25% - again, plus or minus about 1% either way. I eat between 1 ½ and 2 lbs of this mix every day.
I’ve been eating this way for about 4 years now and the basic ingredients of my daily food have remained the same (Slankers pet food, Slankers ground beef, and fat). The only thing I vary is the ratio of these three items – usually to adjust the overall fat content. The only seasoning I use is a pinch of salt (about 1g per day). The only liquid I drink is water, about 3-4 litres per day.
Zero Carb is not magic. It is just another dietary protocol with its own set of issues and trade-offs. If you are into regular intense exercise, I’d recommend a VLC dietary protocol with somewhere between 30g and 50g of carbs per day. A VLC approach seems to be a very successful compromise for athletes.
Lex
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Thanks for the ratios, I think it is too lean because they say the pet food is 90/10 or so, I'll buy their fat and GB as well, no problems eating only these items.
Zero Carb is not magic. It is just another dietary protocol with its own set of issues and trade-offs. If you are into regular intense exercise, I’d recommend a VLC dietary protocol with somewhere between 30g and 50g of carbs per day. A VLC approach seems to be a very successful compromise for athletes.
I disagree, ZC is magic. Fat lost, teeth sensitivity and cavities gone, bloating, gas and constipation/stomach pain gone, energy extremely high yet very very calm and relaxed, physical performance (Sexual and Athletic) through the roof. Carbs even in small amounts hurt my teeth, give me stomach pains, dull my senses and mood and zap my energy, I hate them and will never eat them again.
I saw your bone scans but I'm still wondering weather supplemental calcium would be needed since I take a lot more impact than the average person every week? and in turn ZMA (Zinc, Magnesium, B6) and a multi to keep everything "balanced" and if you know anything about sodium citrate as an additive in cow blood I drink?
Thanks Lex.
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Savage, Lex has made this "ZC is not magic" quip numerous times in the past. I think after multiple failures with diets over a very long period of time, he holds his own knowledge in greatest suspicion and does not want to lead anybody down the wrong path. Virtually no one has tried ZC for more than a few years in the last century and so there is no data. Maybe everyone dies after 10 years on this diet? Maybe he means ZC is not magic in the long run as there are no long term results.
But, we can make inferences and guesses and speculate on the future, which is what I like doing. One of the best ways to really put someone to the test on their beliefs is to place a wager with them one way or another and that I will do now.
I can test whether or not "ZC is magic in the short-run" is indeed what Lex really thinks. This depends on the definition of magic, but and I agree its pretty similar to how you described it above. This bet is going to based on the knowledge I have read on here. I can place a friendly wager against Lex specifically with regards to the calcification going on inside his kidneys. I will offer any amount of money up to $300 laying him 5-1 odds (meaning I put 500 for every 100 Lex puts up) that his kidney calcification stays the same or decreases over the next year. He can even use this as a kind of an insurance if he wants. People will show their true colors when they put their money where their mouth is.
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If you got a negative attitude about something you've already failed.
For me a diet high in raw meat and fat has been very good and so far of all the diets i've tried, and believe me I've tried them all it's by far the best.
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For me a diet high in raw meat and fat has been very good and so far of all the diets i've tried, and believe me I've tried them all it's by far the best.
Yes, I'll agree with this statement. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't eat any carbs. Carbs are not a poison, as some people tell us - they're very important (in small amounts, of course)
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Yes, I'll agree with this statement. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't eat any carbs. Carbs are not a poison, as some people tell us - they're very important (in small amounts, of course)
Carbs can stop the conversion of our bodies from carb burning to fat burning, so it sure looks like a poison, depending on what kind of carbs.
For instance there is supposed to ~4% carbs in the leanest of meat; that must be the right kind.
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Carbs can stop the conversion of our bodies from carb burning to fat burning, so it sure looks like a poison, depending on what kind of carbs.
You can consume 100 g of carbs and still burning fat as your primal source of energy. Read the biochemistry. :)
For instance there is supposed to ~4% carbs in the leanest of meat; that must be the right kind.
4%? Where do you get it from? Look at the nutritional data.
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I'm an athlete and I'm thriving on zero carb! 30 carbs is not necessary unless you want them. I'm eating fatty ground beef and eggs, one meal a day and never had so much energy or success.
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Lex, you know the numbers better than me. Can you give me a guesstimate on what weight proportions I should use when eating 2.2 lbs of meat and fat a day, using only grass-fed ground beef and tallow melted at 130 degrees F?
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Lex, you know the numbers better than me. Can you give me a guesstimate on what weight proportions I should use when eating 2.2 lbs of meat and fat a day, using only grass-fed ground beef and tallow melted at 130 degrees F?
Since tallow is 100% fat then adding 1.6 ounces to 1 lb (16 oz) of ground meat would raise the fat content by about 10%. The only ground meat that I'm really familiar with is Slankers. Their regular ground beef runs about 12% fat and their high fat ground beef runs about 17-18% fat. Adding 1.6 oz per lb of the regular ground beef would raise the total fat to about 22% and adding 1.6 oz per lb of the high fat ground beef would raise the total fat content to about 28%.
22% fat is about 74% calories from fat.
28% fat is about 80% calories from fat.
Not sure if this is what you were asking so if I missed the mark let me know.
Lex
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This bet is going to based on the knowledge I have read on here. I can place a friendly wager against Lex specifically with regards to the calcification going on inside his kidneys. I will offer any amount of money up to $300 laying him 5-1 odds (meaning I put 500 for every 100 Lex puts up) that his kidney calcification stays the same or decreases over the next year. He can even use this as a kind of an insurance if he wants. People will show their true colors when they put their money where their mouth is.
I never bet on anything (I hate Las Vegas), but if I did, trust me, this is a bet I'd hope you win. Also I've significantly changed my water intake so the conditions that might have formed the stones has changed. If the stones become smaller or stay the same there is no way to know if it is due to the increased water intake or if the stones are were longstanding and they reduce in size due to core diet.
Lex
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Thanks Lex. I want to try upping my fat to the 80% by calories ratio.
So assuming my grassfed ground beef is also 12% fat by calories, if I start with 2 lbs beef (they come in one lb packages), I think I need to add 9 oz of tallow to reach 80% calories as fat:
32 oz beef + 9 oz tallow = 41 oz total (2.56 lbs)
78% beef + 22% tallow by weight
I have a scale now, so I could make several days mix in advance and measure out my daily intake of about 2.2 to 2.3 lbs per day, instead of just eyeing things.
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I'm an athlete and I'm thriving on zero carb! 30 carbs is not necessary unless you want them. I'm eating fatty ground beef and eggs, one meal a day and never had so much energy or success.
I'm glad that you thrive on zero-carb. :)
Some other people thrive on 100% vegan diet and are athletes too.
But it's very small minority, statistically insignificant.
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I have a scale now, so I could make several days mix in advance and measure out my daily intake of about 2.2 to 2.3 lbs per day, instead of just eyeing things.
To save time and hassle I usually mix up 15 or 20 lbs at a time. I take the frozen meat packages and place them in the refrigerator to thaw for 24 to 48 hours. Once thawed I mix everything together and then weigh out single serving portions into ziploc bags and refreeze these until needed. Each morning I take one serving out of the freezer and place it in the refrigerator to thaw, and I take the serving that is in the refrigerator and set it out to warm up for the day's meal. This way I only have to spend time mixing food about once every 10 days or so.
I also use the cheapest ziploc bags I can find. I think the ones I'm currently using cost about 2 cents each if you buy 300 at a time so a year's supply is about $7.50 USD. I just use them once and throw them away as the hot water and soap necessary to clean them would cost more than the original price of the bag.
Lex
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Thanks. I can't do the bulk thing right now. Are my numbers right?
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Thanks. I can't do the bulk thing right now. Are my numbers right?
32 oz of ground beef containing 12% fat would have 108g fat and 176 protein – the rest of the weight would be mostly water. Total calories would be:
108 x 9 = 972 calories from fat
176 x 4.3 = 756 calories from protein
Total calories = 1728
972 / 1728 = 56% of calories from fat
756 / 1728 = 44% of calories from protein
If you add 9 oz of pure fat to this
9oz x 28.3 = 255g
255 x 9 = 2,295 additional calories.
Calcs for the new mix with 9 oz fat added would be:
972 + 2,295 = 3267 calories from fat plus 756 calories from protein for total calories of 4,023.
3267 / 4023 = 81% calories from fat
756 / 4023 = 19% calories from protein.
Total fat consumed would be 363 grams
Total protein consumed would be 176 grams
Total weight of food consumed would be 2.5 lbs or 1.16 kg
That is a lot of food. I really can’t consume 4,000 calories every day without gaining a good bit of weight. I find that 1.75 lbs of food is usually plenty which is about 800g (0.8kg) which your mix above would provide about 2,775 calories.
Lex
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That is a lot of food. I really can’t consume 4,000 calories every day without gaining a good bit of weight. I find that 1.75 lbs of food is usually plenty which is about 800g (0.8kg) which your mix above would provide about 2,775 calories.
Yes, I know. I just used the two pounds of meat figure because it comes closest to what I eat in a day and my packages come in one pound quantities. I suppose I could have used a one pound package as the starting point, but I tend to think in terms of two packages out of habit. I'll probably do something like make a week's worth of packages at a time on weekends, dividing the meat/fat mix into daily portions. I've been eating closer to 2+ lbs total meat/fat per day recently in an effort to gain weight, which has worked, but at some point I'll probably cut down to somewhere around your portion size. I may need to go a bit lower too, so I can include some eggs, liver and occasional seafood. Thanks for the data.
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Is 'Beef Dripping' a good source of extra fat?
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Is 'Beef Dripping' a good source of extra fat?
If what you are referring to is the fat that is left after roasting fatty cuts of beef, then what you actually have is rendered fat. It would be just as good (or bad, depending on how you look at cooking) as any other rendered fat. I use rendered fat quite often as it is a convenient way to store fat. Some people believe that rendered fat is hazardous to your health because it has been cooked. I've had no problem with it and believe it is far better than the junk most people eat. To me, the convenience of using rendered fat far out weighs any perceived drawbacks - but that is only my opinion.
Lex
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If what you are referring to is the fat that is left after roasting fatty cuts of beef, then what you actually have is rendered fat. It would be just as good (or bad, depending on how you look at cooking) as any other rendered fat.
Lex
I cannot agree. I assume that you are too polite to call it tallow, whatever, it tastes far better than any tallow I've ever made, and it does not keep.
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Lex, I have experienced a negative effect from heating tallow. When I heated it to 190 F instead of my usual 130 F, I developed lots of burping. I didn't recognize the cause of it until I made a new batch of tallow at my usual 130 F and didn't get the burping after eating. I had also left the tallow heating in the crock pot longer than I had before at the 190 F temp, so I don't know if it was just the higher temp that did it or the time too. It tasted slightly burnt and I hadn't gotten this effect from eating higher-heated tallow before, so maybe this only happens when it's burnt. Some day maybe I'll test 190 F again with a shorter heating time.
Danny Roddy thinks the stomach upset he got from tallow may have been related to this also, as he noticed a burnt odor to his tallow when I mentioned his.
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Lex, I have experienced a negative effect from heating tallow. When I heated it to 190 F instead of my usual 130 F, I developed lots of burping. I didn't recognize the cause of it until I made a new batch of tallow at my usual 130 F and didn't get the burping after eating. I had also left the tallow heating in the crock pot longer than I had before at the 190 F temp, so I don't know if it was just the higher temp that did it or the time too. It tasted slightly burnt and I hadn't gotten this effect from eating higher-heated tallow before, so maybe this only happens when it's burnt. Some day maybe I'll test 190 F again with a shorter heating time.
Danny Roddy thinks the stomach upset he got from tallow may have been related to this also, as he noticed a burnt odor to his tallow when I mentioned his.
Tallow that is truly rendered at 130 deg could be deficient in some of the fatty acids as some may not melt and render out of the tissues at that temperature. It would also contain a good deal of moisture which would affect the keeping qualities - which may or may not concern you depending on how soon you consume it. I've never had a problem with rendered fat, even when rendered at up to 240F. In any case, I always render above 212F to drive out the moisture.
Danny has eaten my pemmican many times and never complained of any problems. Maybe he was just too kind to mention them.
Lex
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Tallow that is truly rendered at 130 deg could be deficient in some of the fatty acids as some may not melt and render out of the tissues at that temperature.
Interesting, but wouldn't that be the case for totally raw suet as well?
It would also contain a good deal of moisture which would affect the keeping qualities - which may or may not concern you depending on how soon you consume it.
Correct, I make small batches that I consume quickly. It's also interesting that the Inuit and Chukchi eat fermented fat. So while spoiled fat may taste lousy to me currently, I'm not sure that it's necessarily unhealthy.
I've never had a problem with rendered fat, even when rendered at up to 240F. In any case, I always render above 212F to drive out the moisture.
Yeah, I didn't have past problems with higher-heated fat either, so I suspect something went wrong. I don't know for sure whether I became less tolerant of higher-heated tallow or if it was a one-time fluke due to something going wrong. I should experiment with it again. Maybe the extra moisture that was on it made it more prone to burning or maybe I let the crock pot run too long. How long do you typically render for?
Danny has eaten my pemmican many times and never complained of any problems. Maybe he was just too kind to mention them. ...
It was in one of his more recent blog posts that I replied with a comment to. I can look up the link if you're interested. His problem was with some tallow or pemmican he made, not any you sent him, as I recall. So your cooking skills are not in question. ;)
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Interesting, but wouldn't that be the case for totally raw suet as well?
By render I'm sure Lex is assuming you're straining the fat while hot. In this case you're throwing away the solids which will still contain some of these fatty acids. If consuming either raw or fully rendered tallow you'd get these. You're possibly "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" I guess. :)
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Interesting, but wouldn't that be the case for totally raw suet as well?
Dan’s post was in line with what I was thinking. Tallow / Rendering makes one think you are discarding the solid chunks and reserving the liquid fat. If this is the case, and you haven’t heated the fat at a high enough temperature, then some of the more saturated fatty acids may not fully liquefy and you’ll be discarding them with the remaining tissues. Of course if you are consuming the solid bits of tissue that you would normally discard as well as the liquid fat then you are getting everything there is to get, just as you would if consuming whole raw fat.
Correct, I make small batches that I consume quickly. It's also interesting that the Inuit and Chukchi eat fermented fat. So while spoiled fat may taste lousy to me currently, I'm not sure that it's necessarily unhealthy.
I actually like fermented meat – though not overly fermented. I often leave my food in my warm car from early morning to mid afternoon on summer days and it does get a bit ‘bubbly” and sour tasting. I suppose it is an acquired taste. However, I’m not overly fond of slimy High Meat. I guess I’m rather pedestrian in that I prefer beer over rock gut whisky so to speak.
Yeah, I didn't have past problems with higher-heated fat either, so I suspect something went wrong. I don't know for sure whether I became less tolerant of higher-heated tallow or if it was a one-time fluke due to something going wrong. I should experiment with it again. Maybe the extra moisture that was on it made it more prone to burning or maybe I let the crock pot run too long.
I never make a decision on one or two meals. Way too many things going on to be able to determine if there is a true problem with such a small sample – unless of course I get violently ill and puke my guts out. Stress at work or in a relationship can cause indigestion as can a passing bacterial or viral infection. These things are usually very short lived and you’re back to normal (whatever that is) within a couple of days.
How long do you typically render for?
Depends on the temperature I’m rendering at. If I’m in the mood to keep it low – around 220F, then I have to render for 8 to 10 hours, or maybe longer if it’s a big batch, to remove most of the water. If rendering at 240F then usually 3 hours is enough. I go by the look of the floating solids. If they are barely “fizzing” then most of the water is gone. You can see this in my Pemmican manual. Also be aware that things will be barely fizzing at the lower temperature just because the heat is low and moisture is released more slowly so you have to just get the feel of it as you do it. For pemmican or tallow that I’m going to store long term I will strain out the solids and then return to the heat at about 230F for another hour or so just to make sure all the water is gone.
It was in one of his more recent blog posts that I replied with a comment to. I can look up the link if you're interested. His problem was with some tallow or pemmican he made, not any you sent him, as I recall. So your cooking skills are not in question. ;)
Never thought my cooking skills were at issue. Just pointing out that I render at 240F and Danny has eaten my pemmican and never said anything about it causing indigestion. So it was a reference to high temp rendering and not the over all process.
Lex
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Tallow / Rendering makes one think you are discarding the solid chunks and reserving the liquid fat. If this is the case, and you haven’t heated the fat at a high enough temperature, then some of the more saturated fatty acids may not fully liquefy and you’ll be discarding them with the remaining tissues. Of course if you are consuming the solid bits of tissue that you would normally discard as well as the liquid fat then you are getting everything there is to get, just as you would if consuming whole raw fat.
If the solids are heated at no more than ~130F, they might be OK for those not too sensitive to cooked meat, but at my or Lex's usual rendering temp of >170°F the solids have the same effect on health as overcooked proteins.
Whether the usual rendering method would result in any deficiency would take a long-term study, (years) as the records don't show such a result.
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Raw fat is about 35% to 40% water and non-fatty tissue...
Its strange that the USDA nutrient data base for suet has it listed at 4% water, 1.5%, and 94% fat and a total of 8.5 calories per gram.
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Dan’s post was in line with what I was thinking. Tallow / Rendering makes one think you are discarding the solid chunks and reserving the liquid fat. If this is the case, and you haven’t heated the fat at a high enough temperature, then some of the more saturated fatty acids may not fully liquefy and you’ll be discarding them with the remaining tissues.
OK, thanks for the warning, Lex. I won't bother with a rheostat then. So I'll have to decide whether I go back to higher-heated tallow or try to again to get used to raw suet. What do you think the minimum temp I can get away with on the tallow is?
I like air-dried meat (I sometimes leave my ground beef out so it gets an air-dried crust), but not yet fermented meat or fat. The Inuit reportedly think that if you haven't learned to love raw meat by age 3 you never will, so they would be shocked by us. :) They were shocked by an English man who visited them and acquired a taste for raw meat as an adult. Some day I would like to get a meat locker to age most of my meats, instead of refrigerating them, like the Paleo guy in NYC, but the only one on the Internet was very expensive, so I'll probably have to get lucky.
I never make a decision on one or two meals.
It was more meals then that, actually. It was one batch of tallow. But one batch is also not enough to go on.
Stress at work or in a relationship ...
Do you still get that badly stressed? I can get stressed for a brief period now, but it passes quickly, even if the situating is very bad (like a physician screaming at me at the top of his lungs). It's a weird feeling to feel happy when things are bad. So different from the past when I would feel bad even when things were going good and there was no environmental stress. I tell my body, "Why are you feeling happy, you stupid body! Things are really bad right now, don't you know that?" LOL Now I know why the explorers reported that the first-contact Inuit and Bushmen laughed a lot, often for seemingly little or no reason. I noticed that in Inuit videos after the people eat seal, whale or caribou that they've hunted, they start smiling, laughing, dancing, singing, and even lifting their arms up in thanks to "the Creator." Especially the older folk (who benefited from traditional foods in their youth much more than the youth of today, unfortunately for the youths) I get this feeling after I eat good meat/fat too, and I feel like humming, singing and dancing. Many of the Inuit youth are committing suicide and I suspect that dramatic drop in D3 consumption as vs. the traditional diet is part of the reason (in addition to an increasingly desperate situation, etc.).
Depends on the temperature I’m rendering at. If I’m in the mood to keep it low – around 220F, then I have to render for 8 to 10 hours, or maybe longer if it’s a big batch, to remove most of the water. If rendering at 240F then usually 3 hours is enough.
Do you think that I could do 190F for a longer period, or is that too low?
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OK, thanks for the warning, Lex. I won't bother with a rheostat then. So I'll have to decide whether I go back to higher-heated tallow or try to again to get used to raw suet.
I try to keep things as simple as possible. My thoughts are that the less processing the better. I prefer raw when available, but do render fat when I have the opportunity to purchase a large quantity just to make storage easier. I only eat pemmican when fresh is not available. Way too much work to make and eat pemmican as my main diet. I usually only make pemmican once or twice a year and then I make 80 to 100 lbs at a time. Last year I sent out over 100 lbs just in samples all over the world.
It was more meals then that, actually. It was one batch of tallow. But one batch is also not enough to go on.
For me one batch would not be enough as there may be some unique issue with that batch.
Do you still get that badly stressed? I can get stressed for a brief period now, but it passes quickly, even if the situating is very bad (like a physician screaming at me at the top of his lungs). It's a weird feeling to feel happy when things are bad. So different from the past when I would feel bad even when things were going good and there was no environmental stress. I tell my body, "Why are you feeling happy, you stupid body! Things are really bad right now, don't you know that?" LOL Now I know why the explorers reported that the first-contact Inuit and Bushmen laughed a lot, often for seemingly little or no reason. I noticed that in Inuit videos after the people eat seal, whale or caribou that they've hunted, they start smiling, laughing, dancing, singing, and even lifting their arms up in thanks to "the Creator." Especially the older folk (who benefited from traditional foods in their youth much more than the youth of today, unfortunately for the youths) I get this feeling after I eat good meat/fat too, and I feel like humming, singing and dancing. Many of the Inuit youth are committing suicide and I suspect that dramatic drop in D3 consumption as vs. the traditional diet is part of the reason (in addition to an increasingly desperate situation, etc.).
No, I don’t get stressed much anymore either. Much of it probably has to do with my age as much as dietary change. When you get to be over 50 you begin to realize that all that stuff you were stressing over when you were young wasn’t very important.
What do you think the minimum temp I can get away with on the tallow is? Do you think that I could do 190F for a longer period, or is that too low?
I don’t know what the fascination with super low temperature is when rendering fat. I always render mine between 230F and 240F and never have any problems. If you try to go lower than that then you are on your own as I have no experience with rendering at lower temperatures.
Lex
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Its strange that the USDA nutrient data base for suet has it listed at 4% water, 1.5%, and 94% fat and a total of 8.5 calories per gram.
All I can tell you is that my normal yield is between 65% and 75%. If I start with 65 lbs of suet I end up with between 40 and 48 lbs of rendered tallow with an average of about 45 lbs.
Lex
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For me one batch would not be enough as there may be some unique issue with that batch.
Yes, I agree. I was low-heating my tallow before that batch, so that one batch wasn't the reason I was doing low heating.
I don’t know what the fascination with super low temperature is when rendering fat.
You basically answered your own question here:
"I try to keep things as simple as possible. My thoughts are that the less processing the better. ...."
So I figured the less heating the better. Plus, Tyler claims that any sort of heating above 40 degrees celsius is super-bad and the higher you go, the worse it is. I don't know who is right about cooked fats between you and Tyler, so I figured I would try both approaches and judge for myself. I tend towards underweight, so I'm trying to eat as raw as I can while at the same time keeping my foods sufficiently enjoyable to maintain and even add a little weight. Low-heated tallow was helping with that brilliantly, but your concern about missing fatty acids has caused me to seek other options. Last night and today I tried chopping and eating raw suet, but my enjoyment, and therefore my food intake, decreased--and it seemed a tad harder to digest. I'm thinking that either your grinder approach or the juicer approach that someone else used is going to be the way to go for me.
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Tyler claims that any sort of heating above 40 degrees celsius is super-bad
Tyler's confusion of fat with tallow is evident, and his posts on that subject were irrational.
alphagruis pointed out that tallow is stable at Lex's rendering temperature, and practically everyone used it in their kitchens forever without problems until synthetic fats/oils were invented.
Last night and today I tried chopping and eating raw suet, but my enjoyment, and therefore my food intake, decreased--and it seemed a tad harder to digest.
I tried mincing and mixing raw grass-finished back fat with ground beef; it was good, but only when really fresh.
Mixing with feedlot fat was not so good, so I eat tallow with 3-hour jerky on the side.
People have tried spicing meat to get around the repulsive taste of raw (see Dr Harris' observation of an allergen in it - albumen IIRC), why not try spicing the tallow to do something about the blah taste?
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Tyler's confusion of fat with tallow is evident, and his posts on that subject were irrational
Given the numerous appallingly negative reactions to heated/rendered tallow from RPDers this is simply nonsense. As for tallow, please bear in mind that tallow was also used in the past to make soap and candlewax and, nowadays, is used as a form of biodiesel (!) for vehicles - hardly a substance that can be remotely considered a health-food.
People have tried spicing meat to get around the repulsive taste of raw (see Dr Harris' observation of an allergen in it - albumen IIRC), why not try spicing the tallow to do something about the blah taste?
Adding spices just seems to actually worsen digestion re raw meats for most RVAFers. And citing Dr Harris, a fraudulent wannabe guru who claims to be palaeo-oriented but isn't, is plainly ridiculous.
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alphagruis pointed out that tallow is stable at Lex's rendering temperature, and practically everyone used it in their kitchens forever without problems until synthetic fats/oils were invented.
If the saturate fat in tallow is quite stable at high temperature, what about the other fat (mono and PUFA) and fragile vitamins/minerals ?
And what about AGEs and ALEs created at high temperature especially in fat food (like butter and olive oil) ?
And what about the testimonials of many rawfooders who react badly with heated tallow ?
You can't honestly ignore all these facts.
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If the saturate fat in tallow is quite stable at high temperature, what about the other fat (mono and PUFA) and fragile vitamins/minerals ?
And what about AGEs and ALEs created at high temperature especially in fat food (like butter and olive oil) ?
And what about the testimonials of many rawfooders who react badly with heated tallow ?
You can't honestly ignore all these facts.
These have already been answered, see the archives - the subject was about coconut something, and got hijacked.
Try a different view, such as: why do pemmicaneers not get sick from this allegedly evil stuff, and instead report miraculous healing?
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These have already been answered, see the archives - the subject was about coconut something, and got hijacked.
Try a different view, such as: why do pemmicaneers not get sick from this allegedly evil stuff, and instead report miraculous healing?
Because it's a thousand times better than SAD.
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I agree it is quite possible paleo man wasted thousands of hours of their time with boring pemmican making instead of doing fun stuff like hunting, chasing women and fighting this is a raw paleo forum.
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I agree it is quite possible paleo man wasted thousands of hours of their time with boring pemmican making instead of doing fun stuff like hunting, chasing women and fighting this is a raw paleo forum.
Quite so, and pemmican is made of raw meat and raw EFAs.
Didn't need to chase women, partly because there weren't any, partly because there were no missionaries to tell females that they would burn in hell if they loved a man.
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Given the numerous appallingly negative reactions to heated/rendered tallow from RPDers this is simply nonsense. As for tallow, please bear in mind that tallow was also used in the past to make soap and candlewax and, nowadays, is used as a form of biodiesel (!) for vehicles - hardly a substance that can be remotely considered a health-food.
So if fruit were used in making soap, shampoo, biodesel, or other products then fruit would not be remotely considered a health food?
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And citing Dr Harris, a fraudulent wannabe guru who claims to be palaeo-oriented but isn't, is plainly ridiculous.
By your definition of fraud, I can safely say that everyone on this board is one.
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Quite so, and pemmican is made of raw meat and raw EFAs.
Fantasy.
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Fantasy.
Care to explain?
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These have already been answered, see the archives - the subject was about coconut something, and got hijacked.
Try a different view, such as: why do pemmicaneers not get sick from this allegedly evil stuff, and instead report miraculous healing?
Never see any miraculous healings with pemmican. Where are the testimonials (mentioning their previous diet which was probably even worst than cooked pemmican) ?
Many raw fooders get sick with pemmican. Only people who eat cooked food can stand pemmican (like on the ZC forum).
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Never see any miraculous healings with pemmican. Where are the testimonials (mentioning their previous diet which was probably even worst than cooked pemmican) ?
Many raw fooders get sick with pemmican. Only people who eat cooked food can stand pemmican (like on the ZC forum).
Precisely.
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So if fruit were used in making soap, shampoo, biodesel, or other products then fruit would not be remotely considered a health food?
Fruit is just used re soap for fruit-essence(ie scent). By itself, it is not useful for making biodiesel or soap, whereas tallow is the key ingredient for some types of soap/biodiesel etc.
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By your definition of fraud, I can safely say that everyone on this board is one.
Absolute rubbish. I pointed out previously that Dr Harris had pretended that heat-created toxins weren't dangerous - and then there's the fact that he calls his website/diet "paleonu" despite the fact that he advocates dairy-consumption. The vast majority of scientists at least admit that heavy cooking of foods creates lots of problematic heat-created toxins, unlike Dr Harris. And the only member of this forum who could be considered fraudulent under those definitions would be William who keeps on insisting, against the facts, that pemmican is 100% raw.
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Fruit is just used re soap for fruit-essence(ie scent). By itself, it is not useful for making biodiesel or soap, whereas tallow is the key ingredient for some types of soap/biodiesel etc.
Ah, but fruit makes drinkable alcohol which is a wonderful degreaser to remove the arterial sludge caused by eating that tallow biodiesel stuff while improving your mood at the same time. And if there is any left over you can degrease the engine in your car or use it as paint remover. Very versatile stuff. Let's hear it for the wonderful benefits of fruit!
BTW, has anyone found a Paleolithic automobile to put that tallow biodiesel in?
Lex
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Lex, AFAIK, fermented fruit can only ever be very mildly alcoholic. It has to be distilled(ie heated) to get sufficiently high enough levels of alcohol in the mixture, such as spirits etc.
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Lex, AFAIK, fermented fruit can only ever be very mildly alcoholic. It has to be distilled(ie heated) to get sufficiently high enough levels of alcohol in the mixture, such as spirits etc.
And tallow and biodiesel don't? I guess I find both sides of the argument ludicrous.
Lex
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And tallow and biodiesel don't? I guess I find both sides of the argument ludicrous.
Lex
Well, that's not really valid. Indeed, all it shows is that foods should be eaten in raw and unrefined form, and that once they're heated/cooked such as in the case of tallow, they are suitable only as biodiesel , soap, candlewax, paint-remover and the like.
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Well, that's not really valid. Indeed, all it shows is that foods should be eaten in raw and unrefined form, and that once they're heated/cooked such as in the case of tallow, they are suitable only as biodiesel , soap, candlewax, paint-remover and the like.
"Tallow is used for soaps, leather dressings, candles, food, and lubricants. It is used in producing synthetic surfactants."
From the link on my Tallow concern thread, which I hope you will answer.
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Tyler, I'll start with where we appear to agree. I agree that foods generally should preferably be eaten in less-processed forms.
Where we apparently disagree is with your claim that "Fruit is just used re soap for fruit-essence(ie scent)" and your singling out of tallow while giving a pass to fruit products. Fruit products are used in many more ways than just scent essences. Plus you are leaving out that food-grade tallow has to be processed further and generally has other ingredients added to it to make soap, candlewax and biodiesel, and you are also leaving out that fruit seed and leaf oils can also be the key ingredient of those very same products and more. This site even spells out the similarity [emphasis mine]:
"Biodiesel from tallow can be easily made using very similar processes to plant oils." ("Biodiesel From Tallow," www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/biodiesel-from-tallow.html)
A toxic alcohol (generally methanol or ethanol) and a toxic catalyst--usually lye (NaOH), Potassium hydroxide (KOH) aka caustic potash, or alkoxides--must be added to tallow or plant oils to make biodiesel. So biodiesel toxicity likely comes more from the toxic catalysts and additional heating at much higher temps, rather than from just the food-grade tallow or plant oils themselves.
Biodiesel production
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel_production
biodiesel from tallow
http://www.biofuelsforum.com/making_biodiesel/289-biodiesel_tallow.html
Re: [biofuel] Pork tallow biodiesel?
http://www.mail-archive.com/sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg36029.html
[Note that cod liver oil and mustard oil can also be used to make biodiesel--do you consider them unhealthy too just because of this or are high heating and addition of toxic catalysts more the problem?]
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My original point was to show that cooking/processing was what rendered foods useless for health, fruit was just an example. Whatever the case, I've never heard of fruit being used to make biodiesel or candlewax as the main ingredient thereof.
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My original point was to show that cooking/processing was what rendered foods useless for health, fruit was just an example.
Yes, cooking and processing fruits does reduce their nutritional value, though saying it makes them useless seems a tad strong, because it depends on what you're comparing to. If a person's starving for calories or experiencing rabbit starvation, then cooked/processed fruit would be better than no fruit at all.
Whatever the case, I've never heard of fruit being used to make biodiesel or candlewax as the main ingredient thereof.
Well, now you know...
Fruit oils used in biodiesel:
"Coconut Biodiesel," http://www.cogeneration.net/coconut_biodiesel.htm
"Enzyme catalyzed production of biodiesel from olive oil," http://www.springerlink.com/content/9r34268247778755
"Farmer turns to fruit tree to power tractors," http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/08/08/farmer.fuel/index.html
"Preparation of biodiesel from Idesia polycarpa var. vestita [aka hairy Japanese orange cherry] fruit oil," http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T77-4VGMP43-1&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1205617172&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2da2a11f1993978c840a01e805afeb04
Fruit oils used in candlewax:
"To obtain a softer, more pliable wax, Michael started to acquire and test a wider range of tropical and domestic plant oils. This included partially hydrogenated coconut, palm, and soybean oils." http://www.ecolightcandles.com/history.htm
"This all natural wax is made from 100% Coconut Oil," http://www.swanscandles.com/store/AllNaturalOrganicCandleWaxes.html
"...candles featuring high quality, cosmetic ingredients like avocado oil, coconut oil, shea butter, cocoa butter, vitamin E, and more."
"Most of the early Greek and Roman candles were made from a thread of flax coated with wax and pitch. In other countries, candles were made of palm oil, coconut oil, beeswax and olive oil." http://www.tristatecandlesupply.net/Candle_Making_Wax/candlemaking.htm
etc., etc.
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Yes, cooking and processing fruits does reduce their nutritional value, though saying it makes them useless seems a tad strong, because it depends on what you're comparing to. If a person's starving for calories or experiencing rabbit starvation, then cooked/processed fruit would be better than no fruit at all.
Well, now you know...
I am not sure juicing fruits reduce their nutritional value. Removing the undigestable part of the fruit (fibers) can benefit to people with compromised digestive system.
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Yes, cooking and processing fruits does reduce their nutritional value, though saying it makes them useless seems a tad strong, because it depends on what you're comparing to. If a person's starving for calories or experiencing rabbit starvation, then cooked/processed fruit would be better than no fruit at all.
Well, now you know...
Fruits, last I checked, are even more severely affected by heat that meat, so they would be largely useless except in exceptional circumstances, such as the above, and then only as a 10th-rate measure. As for carnivore's comment re juicing, I'm sceptical. I mean one only has to look at the nasty side-effects many RVAFers report from drinking veggie-juice(as opposed to certain varieties of raw solid veg which most RVAFers are fine with). Now, granted that fruit doesn't contain the antinutrients found in raw veg, so, unlike veggie-jucie, doesn't have lots of highly concentrated antinutrients within it, but I suspect that the fibre is useful for various processes(such as stabilising blood glucose levels etc.), so that drinking raw fruit-juice would only be effective as a very short-term measure.
Fruit oils used in biodiesel:
"Coconut Biodiesel," http://www.cogeneration.net/coconut_biodiesel.htm
etc., etc.
Interesting. Still means they have to be heated/processed in order to make such fuels.
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Fruits, last I checked, are even more severely affected by heat that meat, so they would be largely useless except in exceptional circumstances, such as the above, and then only as a 10th-rate measure.
Yeah, we basically agree there.
...I suspect that the fibre is useful for various processes(such as stabilising blood glucose levels etc.), so that drinking raw fruit-juice would only be effective as a very short-term measure.
Yes, and I don't do well when I consume even fresh-squeezed fruit juices. They may be OK for some folks, but not me. They seem to affect me worse than whole fruit, so I think you're right that the fiber in fruit diminishes some of the negative effects of the sugars in fruit. I've seen others make that claim also.
Interesting. Still means they have to be heated/processed in order to make such fuels.
Yes, but so does tallow. Food grade tallow is reheated at higher temps and a toxic catalyst and toxic methanol have to be added to it to make biodiesel. From what I read, the process is identical to using fruit oil to make biodiesel except that tallow is used as the organic ingredient instead of fruit oil, and fruit oil is apparently more useful overall as biodiesel than tallow (because tallow solidifies at room temp.).
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Yes, but so does tallow. Food grade tallow is reheated at higher temps and a toxic catalyst and toxic methanol have to be added to it to make biodiesel. From what I read, the process is identical to using fruit oil to make biodiesel except that tallow is used as the organic ingredient instead of fruit oil, and fruit oil is apparently more useful overall as biodiesel than tallow (because tallow solidifies at room temp.).
You're wrongly comparing tallow to raw fruit, despite the fact that they are in different states re raw/cooked. You should be viewing raw suet and raw fruit by comparison with processed fruit oils and processed tallow. In other words any processing ruins a food and makes it only fit for candlewax/soap/biodiesel etc. depending on the level of processing involved.
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You should be viewing raw suet and raw fruit by comparison with processed fruit oils and processed tallow. In other words any processing ruins a food and makes it only fit for candlewax/soap/biodiesel etc. depending on the level of processing involved.
Tallow is not processed.
It is as close as we can get to pure essential fatty acids.
Fat is processed. Tallow is not processed.
Your confusion is evident, and so is the brain fog.
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Tallow is not processed.
It is as close as we can get to pure essential fatty acids.
Fat is processed. Tallow is not processed.
Your confusion is evident, and so is the brain fog.
Tallow is not processed.
It is as close as we can get to pure essential fatty acids.
Fat is processed. Tallow is not processed.
Your confusion is evident, and so is the brain fog.
It's so hilarious when you state something that is so self-evidently wrong, as it shows that you must be afflicted with brain-fog yourself(and that's not even including your constant dumb claims that pemmican is always raw). Tallow has to be heated/rendered in order for it to change from raw suet to tallow. Rendering is a process, as shown by wikipedia et al:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendering_(food_processing)
"The process of liberating the fat from the cells that constitute the adipose tissue. Dry rendering, heating the fat dry, or wet rendering, when water is present." taken from answers.com etc. etc.
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It's so hilarious when you state something that is so self-evidently wrong, as it shows that you must be afflicted with brain-fog yourself(and that's not even including your constant dumb claims that pemmican is always raw). Tallow has to be heated/rendered in order for it to change from raw suet to tallow. Rendering is a process, as shown by wikipedia et al:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendering_(food_processing)
"The process of liberating the fat from the cells that constitute the adipose tissue. Dry rendering, heating the fat dry, or wet rendering, when water is present." taken from answers.com etc. etc.
William is ready to defend pemmican as it was is life, because it seems that is is the only food he has found that enables him to survive.
I am sure if he was more open minded, he would find that real rawpaleo food, including from the vegetal kingdom, could really heal him.
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William is ready to defend pemmican as it was is life, because it seems that is is the only food he has found that enables him to survive.
I am sure if he was more open minded, he would find that real rawpaleo food, including from the vegetal kingdom, could really heal him.
Home made freshly cultured grassfed kefir may work better than dried warmed strained meat product.
William, can you make this kefir?
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Home made freshly cultured grassfed kefir may work better than dried warmed strained meat product.
William, can you make this kefir?
See my latest entry on my posts. I see (now) this is in totally meat topic. Sorry. I'm not into pemmican, but if you like it, I don't like telling people to eat what they dislike.
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<<Quote from: PaleoPhil on February 14, 2010, 10:22:08 PM
Yes, but so does tallow. Food grade tallow is reheated at higher temps and a toxic catalyst and toxic methanol have to be added to it to make biodiesel. From what I read, the process is identical to using fruit oil to make biodiesel except that tallow is used as the organic ingredient instead of fruit oil, and fruit oil is apparently more useful overall as biodiesel than tallow (because tallow solidifies at room temp.).>>
You're wrongly comparing tallow to raw fruit, ...
I didn't write "raw fruit," I wrote "fruit oil." Just as tallow is not raw, unprocessed suet, so fruit oil is not raw, unprocessed fruit.
despite the fact that they are in different states re raw/cooked. You should be viewing raw suet and raw fruit by comparison with processed fruit oils and processed tallow.
As I recall, you were questioning the merits of tallow, not raw suet. If you want to question the latter, by all means, proceed and then I'll compare raw fruit to it.
In other words any processing ruins a food and makes it only fit for candlewax/soap/biodiesel etc. depending on the level of processing involved.
I thought we already agreed on that. That's not the subject of this discussion. I already believed that tallow is a suboptimal food and have stated that in the past, as has Lex many times. We only took issue with your implication that that tallow must be regarded as highly toxic simply because it can be made into biodiesel (by reheating it at higher temps and adding a toxic catalyst and toxic methanol to it). The same thing can be done with fruit oil, yet you haven't claimed that fruit oil is highly toxic. Do you believe fruit oils like coconut oil and fruit seed oils are highly toxic because they can be made into biodiesel in the same way as tallow or don't you?