Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: redfulcrum on January 15, 2010, 12:55:28 am
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OMG! I knew it! If a male lion does nothing but bullies the females, take their meat and get bigger, I don't see why it should be any different for humans. I suspected this all along. I started on Saturday the 9th and ate lean meat non stop. Just started to get rabbit starvation diarrhea on Wednesday the 13th. Incorporating fat back into my diet. I did not exercise the whole time. Low and behold, it worked. Women are eyeballing me everywhere I go now, it's amazing!
Realizations I made:
1) There is no protein ceiling. The only ceiling is how big your stomach stretches.
2) You will need to eat fat eventually. This is actually the second time I had rabbit starvation. I like experimenting. Your body will start to reject lean meat after a few days for reasons I really do not know. Last time I had it, my body fat was extremely low. This time it is higher, so the body fat thing cannot be the reason. Possibly to save precious body fat.
3)Carboyhydrates. Turns out that carbs are nature's natural steroids. Eat enough of it and it makes pimples, which can only occur because of increased Testosterone. Researched prolong use of anabolic steroids. It's funny how the problems they create are the same as excessive use of carbohydrates in the diet. Diabetes and steroid damage are the same damn thing. The body was never meant to stay anabolic without extra material(meat) to make new body parts with. I wouldn't use steroids without meat and I wouldn't eat carbs without meat. No wonder all my neolithic friends look so much older than I do. Alcohol is also another anabolic substance. It's so anabolic everything gets stored, you even decrease your brain's use of glucose with it. Now I see why the guys that eat meat and drink beer are so muscular. Nature allowed us to be more anabolic when carbs came around during the fall. We humans learned how to abuse this delicate system with agriculture.
4)Role of Protein. In the past I was taught that excess protein turns into fat. What a load of crap that turned out to be. If I lose a pound of muscle everyday I go without food, than to make up for the days not eating, there has to be a day of taking in more than I need for that day. Who came up with this protein turns into fat business? Protein is your glucose reservoir. There's no way to store days of glucose, but you can store heck of a lot of useful protein. Protein turns into everything lipids and glucose cannot. It wouldn't make any sense to deaminate protein and turn it into fat. I'm sure that would be a net loss ATP reaction if that was to be a true statement. Mother Nature is not that stupid.
5)Role of Exercise. Exercise can sculpt your body and that is it. A net increase in total muscle mass is a function of eating, not working out. There is no need to slave away at the gym. There might not be any reason to push that hard either, just enough burn to sculpt the muscle you want to grow. If you went in the gym and just did bicep curls and your protein intake is not enough, your biceps will get bigger at the cost of the rest of your body getting smaller. To compensate, there has to be an intake of exogenous protein.
6)Gluconeogenesis. The body will only make enough glucose from protein and other substances until glycogen levels are filled up. Any excess amino acids from there on in the blood will not turn into glucose. The excess amino acids will create an anabolic state that allows protein synthesis. That is how muscles get bigger. I don't care how much protein you eat, your kidneys will not fail. Excessive glucose destroys kidneys.
7)Propaganda. There is some force out there trying to control our minds. From these 95lbs. fashion models they want us to admire, to the retarded food pyramid with their stupid cholesterol theory. The rich has always found ways to keep the poor from eating meat. They did it with religion and force before, but now they use pseudo-science to instill us with fear. I just can't picture paleo hunters to be a bunch of guys looking like Justin Timberlake taking on a whooly rhino. Something isn't right.
The more I'm on this diet, the more it proves to me that we truly are carnivores. No carnivore should've been domesticated. Look what happened to dogs. They are no comparison to the killing machines of wolves. Just like we modern humans are no comparison to ancient humans. For those that read this and truly get what I'm saying... I hope to see you around after this world ends and a new one begins. Get big and strong before the economy collapses. It will be a rough ride. GODSPEED!
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You should write a new handbook of biochemistry... l)
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lol, look man I'm on a carnivorous approach myself and I joined here because I decided to give the raw approach a try however some of the claims you make is why people think zerocarbers are crazy
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Well of course cholesterol causes heart disease. We should be eating 5 a day. Make sure you drink 8 glasses of water. The emperor is a god. The government can't be killing Jews(Nazi Germany). Formaldehyde is great for babies, let's put it in the milk supply.
I don't mean to stir anything. DOGMA is DOGMA, not facts. There's a lot of crap floating around everwhere. Turn on your TV around prime time. "Ask you doctor about Crestor, blah blah blah." If you think there's no battle for the minds, you better think again. If I had kids I'm not feeding them frosted mini wheats because THEY SAY it makes them smarter and more attentive in the classroom. People believe that shit, just because of the commercials. Companies know that. Why do you think they pay so much for airtime? Hitler perfected the art/science of propaganda/advertising/brainwashing. You really think AIDS exist? There's no retrovirus killing people, only toxic drugs that get in the way of DNA/RNA. You mess with that, you mess with life. Open up your minds. Get out of that box they put you in. Read Plato. History repeats itself. Babylon, Egypt, Rome, and one day, the United States.
I'm glad you called me a nut. I am that crazy to push the limits. Good luck to you, slave. May you live forever.
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lol calm down you bleeding heart, I never called you a nut, although I might have thought it lol. Yes, there have been times in history where humanity's ideas and beliefs were wrong but that does not make everything we know now false. Besides, I did essentially try what you are talking about, I did zerocarb for 8 months and It made me lose weight (which I didnt really need cause I was already quite skinny) and it didn't allow me continue my MMA training (making me believe that anaerobic exercise does require glycogen and gluconeogenesis isn't the fastest or most efficient way to replenish it). However, I'm back to zerocarb now because my brain functions better and my candida symptoms disappear. I'm also giving raw meat a try instead of cooked (which I previously could not pull off cause my digestion was worse) so unless you think that my failure to obtain the results you mentioned are because I cooked my meat and because I didn't overstuff myself with just lean meat then I guess you might be as YOU SAID a nut lol
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Sorry man, bigger muscle, more testosterone. I need to learn to tame the incredible hulk.
The problem with new converts is that they undershoot their protein requirements. You need more protein to make glucose, eat enough of it and you're fine. It doesn't take long for the liver to make glucose at all. We're not that much different from other carnivores. I'm eating on the order of 1000g of protein to gain size. Probably more. The body becomes very thermogenic when it gets a lot of protein. Which leads me to believe that this newfound body heat allowed us to venture into colder climates.
I figured out why I am so unhappy living here in the East Coast. What most people think is excessive protein consumption is the norm in Southern California. That would explain the beautiful women everywhere in San Diego. DC is an ugly town. I see protein deficiency everywhere. People have way too much hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen in DC, compared to San Diego. Over there you can clearly see they carry more nitrogen and sulphur. Especially in their butts. God, I love California.
You're in luck my friend for pissing me off earlier. I too went thru the same problem when I got here. Started getting yeast infections on my genitals, cystic acne, dandruff, etc. All symptoms of staying anabolic too long. Ditch the carbs, ditch the immune issues. I guarantee it, just have faith. Believe me. Do not eat the same amount of food everyday. It is good to overeat meat sometimes. You'll see it in your eyes, skin, hair, and of course that big manly chest. It's also good to go without for a couple of days too. Read about the benefits of a catabolic state. The body was never meant to stay in a static state.
Wish you the best.
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Good stuff, and I'm glad to see someone else is awake.
However, it wasn't AH who perfected propaganda/advertising/brainwashing; it was well known in classical Greece, where the peasants/slaves were required by law to attend touring stage plays.
The self-appointed owners of the human race have been at this a long time.
Hitler perfected the art/science of propaganda/advertising/brainwashing.
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well I mean I guess I'm not really disagreeing with everything you say. Like I said I was a cooked zerocarber for 8 months in which it improved many aspects of my life:skin, depression, sleep, brain fog however my energy was never as good as when I ate carbs. After 8 months I tried 2 weeks of meat and potatoes based on some anthropological research but it turned out that it only made me feel worse with my acne coming back again and other symptoms. Here's the thing though, during my 8 months zerocarb, specially during the end, I wasn't able to eat more than 2 pounds a day, not cause I didnt want to but I just couldnt force it down. so what did I do wrong? was it because the meat was cooked? Was it because I was eating fatty meat? Who knows, all i know is that carbs found in vegetation dont make my body feel very good so I'm back to a carnivorous lifestyle and I'm willing to experiment with my meat being raw and also add in a few organ meats. Maybe I should try eating fatty ground beef until I am no longer hungry and then eat as much lean meat as I can afterwards and see if that changes anything. What do you think? Do you eat your meat raw and do you think that is a significant factor? By the way, I eat twice a day but I could probably pull of the once a day eating again if it helps with the catabolic state
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The fat doesn't matter. You only need about less than a pound a day, the rest can be protein. I think paleo men ate the rest of the protein(leaner cuts) than the rest of the group, thus allowing them to get bigger. 2lbs. of meat a day? Don't eat like a girl. Eat like a man. LOL!!!! No wonder you're tired. You should eat at least 4lbs., especially for MMA. You need more energy. You will get accustomed to eating more when you force yourself more meat. I can go thru 10lbs. in a day with no problem. Don't take me to any buffets. I'll shut the house down. Obviously, I don't eat raw all the time. I can't, it's instinct to do both for me. I like liver raw, but I like guts cooked. Cooking releases something your tongue loves. Maybe glutamic acid, Malliard's reaction... Who knows?! All raw gets boring. Sorry, don't flame me guys. Go to a sushi buffet and throw away the rice. Happy hour $1 dollar oysters, I am so there. I wish I can find a girl like me.
Another thing, most americans are disgusted at organ meats. You need to eat either organs meats or take a very good multi. You need more than just calories. Muscle meat is not as nutritious. It gets boring real fast eating a ribeye all the time. Lots of meat out there to eat. Seafood, organs, insects, eggs of all types of animals. Get creative. Mmm... Snails. See, I'm hungry already.
You'll learn to stay away from restaurants because the cost to food ratio sucks and you have to tip. 1/2lbs. burger... big deal? 8 ounce steak? oooh!!! Those are neolithic proportions. Eat like that and have a neolithic body. Not enough nitrogen and sulfur. If you can't afford grass fed, eat the next best thing, grain fed. Still better than Doritos. Go load up on cod liver oil. You know, figure it out. Nutrition is like a business. Get it to work for you.
You'll get used to it, just unleash that carnivore inside you.
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You do understand that one of the main intents of eating a carnivorous diet is to switch to burning ketones as a fuel and therefore avoid further damage to the body with lots of insulin. By eating as much lean meat as you do your body is still running on glucose and therefore still having those same surges and dips, albeit at a reduced response.
I also unintentionally spent a couple months either in rabbit starvation or very close to it ~a year and a half ago. Yeah, I looked good at 4% bodyfat but it wasn't a healthy place to be and my body told me so.
The quantity of food you're talking about is excessive especially at your energy expenditure levels. I think it's just going to be taxing on your body.
Please keep us informed though as I do want to know how it goes for you. Maybe I'll be completely wrong.
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lol I had to go to fitday to find out how much meat a person would need to get 1000 grams of protein like you mentioned. I used 95/05 ground beef cause it's the leanest and a person would need over 10 pounds of that a day. That's insane lol But you did mention in your last post that you eat 10 pounds of meat so I guess good job you T-Rex you. I unfortunately can't see me being able to do that, so I'll probably just have to be a slave with the rest of humanity :'(
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lol I had to go to fitday to find out how much meat a person would need to get 1000 grams of protein like you mentioned. I used 95/05 ground beef cause it's the leanest and a person would need over 10 pounds of that a day. That's insane lol But you did mention in your last post that you eat 10 pounds of meat so I guess good job you T-Rex you. I unfortunately can't see me being able to do that, so I'll probably just have to be a slave with the rest of humanity :'(
I wouldn't feel too bad.
I'm fighting Candida as well and I know for a fact that eating like this would cause me issues with it. The body can't use all that protein before the Candida gets some glucose to eat even if it is possible to digest and use all that protein everyday. All you would do is shoot yourself in the foot attempting it IMO. I've found that my symptoms have been steadily improving the past 5 1/2ish months through adequate fat intake and caloric restriction to what I'm expending. :)
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Here's my desktop sticky to remind me of why I should gobble fat instead of meat:
1) Please see this excerpt from Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and
Physical Performance":
"The third dietary factor potentially affecting physical performance
is adjusting protein intake to bring it within the optimum
therapeutic window for human metabolism. The studies noted herein
[13-15,20] demonstrate effective preservation of lean body mass and
physical performance when protein is in the range of 1.2 – 1.7 g/kg
reference body weight daily, provided in the context of adequate
minerals. Picking the mid-range value of 1.5 g/kg-d, for adults with
reference weights ranging from 60–80 kg, this translates into total
daily protein intakes 90 to 120 g/d. This number is also consistent
with the protein intake reported in the Bellevue study [9]. When
expressed in the context of total daily energy expenditures of 2000–
3000 kcal/d, about 15% of ones daily energy expenditure (or intake if
the diet is eucaloric) needs to be provided as protein.
The effects of reducing daily protein intake to below 1.2 g/kg
reference weight during a ketogenic diet include progressive loss of
functional lean tissue and thus loss of physical performance, as
demonstrated by Davis et al [21]. In this study, subjects given
protein at 1.1 g/kg-d experienced a significant reduction in VO2max
over a 3 month period on a ketogenic diet, whereas subjects given 1.5
g/kg-d maintained VO2max.
At the other end of the spectrum, higher protein intakes have the
potential for negative side-effects if intake of this nutrient
exceeds 25% of daily energy expenditure. One concern with higher
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis). In addition,
Stefansson describes a malady known by the Inuit as rabbit malaise
[8]. This problem would occur in the early spring when very lean
rabbits were the only available game, when people might be tempted to
eat too much protein in the absence of an alternative source of
dietary fat. The symptoms were reported to occur within a week, and
included headache and lassitude. Such symptoms are not uncommon among
people who casually undertake a 'low carbohydrate, high protein' diet."
2) Also, Ron Rosedale in his book recommending a "high fat, low
nonfiber carbohydrate, moderate protein diet," has charts that start
on page 207 to help you figure out daily protein requirements.
Basically, for those who are not overweight, the number is half your
weight. There are a few more calculations involved for the
overweight -- but the gist is the same as Phinney above.
Here's a quote from the book:
"The fact that protein is essential for life... doesn't mean that you
can eat it in unlimited quantities. When you eat more protein than
your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is
largely converted into glucose and burned as fuel. It turns you
into a sugar maker and sugar burner! This is not desirable or healthy."
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WRONG!!! WRONG!!!! WRONG!!!! Life is about glucose. At least animal life. I bet I don't piss any ketones while I'm eating. Ketones only show up when you're not eating. The longer you fast or eating low protein, the more ketones you make. Hence, the ketogenic ratio. The Ketogenic diet is stupid. It's basically fasting and eating fat to stay fat. You can't do MMA on ketones. When I'm fasting, I'm hypoglycemic. Can't be active being hypoglycemic.
The enemy is not insulin. When you eat carbs. Insulin increases and glucagon drops. When you eat protein, they both go up. Go open up a book and read about glucagon and see how it counters the effects of insulin. In fact read up on all the different hormones of the body. Again, the insulin thing is dogma. That's why carnivores look younger than their neolithic omnivores counterparts, no matter how much meat I eat.
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well usually i'm open to being a guinea pig but this experiment would be quite expensive, specially since fatty meat is cheaper due to the clogging arteries abilities of saturated fat ;D In all seriousness though, if what you say is true then just post a recent picture of your 10 pounds muscle increase compared to a picture of you a month ago or whatever.
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I'm not posting no pic. Unfortunately I don't own a camera. Believe or not, I don't care. More women for me when i become the alpha male.
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well that makes sense, you can't afford a camera but you can afford to eat over 10 pounds of meat a day ;D lol don't worry it was a good try man, you almost had me believing that rabbit starvation was a good thing lol it's okay, you can have all the girls you want that wont have a problem with you eating 11 pounds of meat a day -v
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WRONG!!! WRONG!!!! WRONG!!!! Life is about glucose. At least animal life. I bet I don't piss any ketones while I'm eating. Ketones only show up when you're not eating. The longer you fast or eating low protein, the more ketones you make. Hence, the ketogenic ratio. The Ketogenic diet is stupid. It's basically fasting and eating fat to stay fat. You can't do MMA on ketones. When I'm fasting, I'm hypoglycemic. Can't be active being hypoglycemic.
It doesn't take long for the body to adapt to using ketones as fuel. After that you don't have them in your urine either. I agree that a ketogenic diet is stupid; those of us here eating a higher fat diet do not want to function in ketosis but beyond it.
FWIW I've increased my endurance two to three-fold since changing my diet up.
How about this anecdotal evidence I've experienced that perhaps you might be able shed a light on.
When I was eating a very high lean meat diet I had a strong, distinct, and unpleasant odor to my urine. These were not ketones as I can smell the difference. I've grown very in tune with my body over the years and can tell when something is distinctly "wrong" (much the same way I can sense disease in others). The best I can describe this odor is this same "wrong" whereas ketones do not give me quite this revulsion. I still occasionally get this smell and it's invariably after a couple days of eating less fat than my body desires (usually occurs if I run low) and I substituting with extra protein (the protein doesn't satiate on it's own so I need to eat more to give my stomach the feeling of fullness quite like my days of full stomachs eating SAD).
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If you exhaust glycogen stores, gluconeogenesis kick in. It's not so bad if you're sitting around, but if you're running or burning up lots of glucose, the rate of gluconeogenesis picks up. The off smell you're talking about is ammonia. Demamination of protein for it's carbon skeleton to produce glucose. Ammonia is toxic and the body will let it out everywhere. Sweat, breath, urine, etc..
That's why I don't run around when I have no glycogen. If you're exhausted, stop and rest. Marathons are stupid. It's unnatural to be in a CATABOLIC state and being active. Look at them, they all look old and malnourished. At least the neolithic ones, that paleo one looks good though. He's doing it right. Dean Karnazes. Check him out. He's paleo.
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I'm pretty sure you don't exhaust glycogen stores running a marathon. 100 meter sprints, now thats a different story...
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OMG! I knew it! If a male lion does nothing but bullies the females, take their meat and get bigger, I don't see why it should be any different for humans. I suspected this all along. I started on Saturday the 9th and ate lean meat non stop. Just started to get rabbit starvation diarrhea on Wednesday the 13th. Incorporating fat back into my diet. I did not exercise the whole time. Low and behold, it worked. Women are eyeballing me everywhere I go now, it's amazing!
Realizations I made:
1) There is no protein ceiling. The only ceiling is how big your stomach stretches.
2) You will need to eat fat eventually. This is actually the second time I had rabbit starvation. I like experimenting. Your body will start to reject lean meat after a few days for reasons I really do not know. Last time I had it, my body fat was extremely low. This time it is higher, so the body fat thing cannot be the reason. Possibly to save precious body fat.
3)Carboyhydrates. Turns out that carbs are nature's natural steroids. Eat enough of it and it makes pimples, which can only occur because of increased Testosterone. Researched prolong use of anabolic steroids. It's funny how the problems they create are the same as excessive use of carbohydrates in the diet. Diabetes and steroid damage are the same damn thing. The body was never meant to stay anabolic without extra material(meat) to make new body parts with. I wouldn't use steroids without meat and I wouldn't eat carbs without meat. No wonder all my neolithic friends look so much older than I do. Alcohol is also another anabolic substance. It's so anabolic everything gets stored, you even decrease your brain's use of glucose with it. Now I see why the guys that eat meat and drink beer are so muscular. Nature allowed us to be more anabolic when carbs came around during the fall. We humans learned how to abuse this delicate system with agriculture.
4)Role of Protein. In the past I was taught that excess protein turns into fat. What a load of crap that turned out to be. If I lose a pound of muscle everyday I go without food, than to make up for the days not eating, there has to be a day of taking in more than I need for that day. Who came up with this protein turns into fat business? Protein is your glucose reservoir. There's no way to store days of glucose, but you can store heck of a lot of useful protein. Protein turns into everything lipids and glucose cannot. It wouldn't make any sense to deaminate protein and turn it into fat. I'm sure that would be a net loss ATP reaction if that was to be a true statement. Mother Nature is not that stupid.
5)Role of Exercise. Exercise can sculpt your body and that is it. A net increase in total muscle mass is a function of eating, not working out. There is no need to slave away at the gym. There might not be any reason to push that hard either, just enough burn to sculpt the muscle you want to grow. If you went in the gym and just did bicep curls and your protein intake is not enough, your biceps will get bigger at the cost of the rest of your body getting smaller. To compensate, there has to be an intake of exogenous protein.
6)Gluconeogenesis. The body will only make enough glucose from protein and other substances until glycogen levels are filled up. Any excess amino acids from there on in the blood will not turn into glucose. The excess amino acids will create an anabolic state that allows protein synthesis. That is how muscles get bigger. I don't care how much protein you eat, your kidneys will not fail. Excessive glucose destroys kidneys.
7)Propaganda. There is some force out there trying to control our minds. From these 95lbs. fashion models they want us to admire, to the retarded food pyramid with their stupid cholesterol theory. The rich has always found ways to keep the poor from eating meat. They did it with religion and force before, but now they use pseudo-science to instill us with fear. I just can't picture paleo hunters to be a bunch of guys looking like Justin Timberlake taking on a whooly rhino. Something isn't right.
The more I'm on this diet, the more it proves to me that we truly are carnivores. No carnivore should've been domesticated. Look what happened to dogs. They are no comparison to the killing machines of wolves. Just like we modern humans are no comparison to ancient humans. For those that read this and truly get what I'm saying... I hope to see you around after this world ends and a new one begins. Get big and strong before the economy collapses. It will be a rough ride. GODSPEED!
I absolutely adore this post.
Thank you for experimenting for us and telling your results!
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Well of course cholesterol causes heart disease. We should be eating 5 a day. Make sure you drink 8 glasses of water. The emperor is a god. The government can't be killing Jews(Nazi Germany). Formaldehyde is great for babies, let's put it in the milk supply.
I don't mean to stir anything. DOGMA is DOGMA, not facts. There's a lot of crap floating around everwhere. Turn on your TV around prime time. "Ask you doctor about Crestor, blah blah blah." If you think there's no battle for the minds, you better think again. If I had kids I'm not feeding them frosted mini wheats because THEY SAY it makes them smarter and more attentive in the classroom. People believe that shit, just because of the commercials. Companies know that. Why do you think they pay so much for airtime? Hitler perfected the art/science of propaganda/advertising/brainwashing. You really think AIDS exist? There's no retrovirus killing people, only toxic drugs that get in the way of DNA/RNA. You mess with that, you mess with life. Open up your minds. Get out of that box they put you in. Read Plato. History repeats itself. Babylon, Egypt, Rome, and one day, the United States.
I'm glad you called me a nut. I am that crazy to push the limits. Good luck to you, slave. May you live forever.
Heartily agree with everything you just posted. Call me nut #2.
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There is nothing I can do or say for you to believe me. What I am telling you is the truth. I leave it to you if you want to decide to change your life. God created us with great intelligence to rule this planet. I live my life with only truth. The others may lie about everything, but I am no fool. I can see through their lies. I have nothing to gain by writing this except the gratitude of helping others.
Back to excess protein. I think the problem is not body fat levels, but a missing growth co-factor. Possibly depleted by eating not eating fat. You can get away with it for a while, til that co-factor is gone. Hyperaminoacidemia will no longer force anabolism when it's gone, the body has no choice but to catabolize the amino acids. Increased deamination leads to excess ammonia in the bloodstream. If continued will lead to sickness and death.
I had to sit around and think about it for a moment. Sounds good to me.
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I love it redfulcrum. I feel and frankly, I look fantastic eating raw fatty ground beef (80/20 and 75/25). My lifts keep going up, my energy is boundless. I am having the best workouts of my life on raw zero carb, and my body is strikingly lean BUT very strong. I'm not a weak little thing. I love raw ZC!
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God created us with great intelligence to rule this planet.
i think it would be easier for a creature blessed with intelligence enough to rule the planet to figure out how to properly fuel their body....
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oh Katelyn, Katelyn, Katelyn... It seems like no matter what forum I go to or what specific thread I open, I am guaranteed to see your little one paragraph post about how great eating nothing but ground beef has been to you, how flat it has made your stomach and how much it has increased your energy, performance and those muscles that only you are able to see in your pictures. I know, I'm sounding like an asshole right now but you have to excuse me since It gets a bit tiresome/annoying after the 15th time of reading it. Honestly, It wouldn't surprise me if you actually have that specific paragraph saved as a word document so you can just open it up and copy paste it whenever needed.
Don't get me wrong, I don't discredit your success story and I'm really happy that all these aforementioned improvements are your results; However, it's really frustrating to see that same post over and over again in threads that you don't even read. What do I mean? Well you've obviously failed to read or at least comprehend this threat in its entirety. Let me explain to you what you should have realized, should you have read this thread:
You and redfulcrum are not doing the same thing AT ALL. You are eating raw 80/20 and 75/25 ground beef that is providing you with around 70% of your calories in fat while the rest is protein. Secondly, and less important than the first reason, is the fact that you actually measure your ground beef bowl so that it's the same every day.
On the other hand, redfulcrum is talking about eating lots of lean animals. Now, I know he even specifically stated that he doesnt just eat one of the same thing all day but I need to phrase my example so you can understand the difference. Redfulcrum is doing what would be the equivalent of eating 11 pounds of 95% lean ground beef which is providing him 1000 grams of protein and not very much fat. In fact according to fitday he is getting almost 70% of his calories from PROTEIN and the other 30% through fat. So you Katelyn are actually fat/ketones adapted while redfulcrum is still a glucose burner.
I might be mistaken on this next part but it seems that redfulcrum is basically talking about switching the macronutrients fat and protein so that in reality a person is getting the minimum amount of fat to avoid rabbit starvation while getting the majority of his/her calories from protein. However, if the protein to glucose conversion really is 70% or less and if heavy protein does take a strenuous toll on the kidneys then this form of eating sounds highly inneficient and perhaps dangerous.
However, at the same time it really is amazing, if in fact redfulcrum did put 10 pounds of muscle in less than a week, which I guess we should all believe cause otherwise why would he waste his valuable time posting about it here? I mean after all he is just trying to share his success with other even though he won't provide any photos, or some type of actual evidence to really make the reader believe him... But it's okay, he doesn't care cause he'll get all the girls ;D
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I might be mistaken on this next part but it seems that redfulcrum is basically talking about switching the macronutrients fat and protein so that in reality a person is getting the minimum amount of fat to avoid rabbit starvation while getting the majority of his/her calories from protein. However, if the protein to glucose conversion really is 70% or less and if heavy protein does take a strenuous toll on the kidneys then this form of eating sounds highly inneficient and perhaps dangerous.
Exactly. :)
However, at the same time it really is amazing, if in fact redfulcrum did put 10 pounds of muscle in less than a week, which I guess we should all believe cause otherwise why would he waste his valuable time posting about it here? I mean after all he is just trying to share his success with other even though he won't provide any photos, or some type of actual evidence to really make the reader believe him... But it's okay, he doesn't care cause he'll get all the girls ;D
I like your style Christopher. Welcome to the board. ;D
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I don't see how photos will prove anything. I can just show photos from another time, photoshop or whatever. You guys do what you want. I showed you the water hole, I can't make you drink it. The only way I can prove it to you, is to have someone hang around with me for a whole week. Other than that, it's anecdotal. I can care less what you guys think. I just wanted to post up an experiment's results. I proved it to myself and that's what matters the most to me. I love figuring things out and solving problems.
You guys got to get that whole macronutrient ratio thing out of your head. There's no ratio. Your body has needs according to what is deficient in. The body is dynamic and chaotic. You can't say you need this and that in this amount day in and day out. That makes no sense. This isn't the former Soviet Union rationing food. I don't see cows keeping a caloric record, they just eat and eat less other times. What lion eats all the time? Nothing wrong with eating tons of protein on short term. You're not going to burn it for fuel, you're gonna save it as muscle just like fat stores. People eat lean meat all the time, they just don't do it continuously or exclusively to get rabbit starvation. You don't see people fainting after eating a chicken breast salad. It took me a while to develop fat hunger, and I gave in. My body is back to normal again because I was lacking something apparently in fat. Listen to your instinct. Drop the dogma!
The whole ketosis thing is getting old. I know what ketosis is and that is when you're not consuming enough anti-ketogenic macronutrients. Enough with it. HIGH PROTEIN WILL NOT CAUSE KETOSIS!!!! There is no way that girl can be lifting weights in a state of ketosis. Face it, protein is used for glucose in carnivores. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR SKULLS PEOPLE! Your body doesn't care about some ratio, all that matters is the properties of your BLOOD STREAM in that one point in time.
If the girl thinks she's hot from her new found diet, let her be. Don't rain on her parade.
To all you non-believers, more meat for me. I ain't staying stuck in some neolithic pupa stage. Good luck attracting mates with your weak bodies. KLOWCARB, you better eat up to develop that ASS! LOL!!!! PROTEIN BABY! Why do you think some black chicks have some nice asses? Must be the genes or the water, huh?
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Klowcarb wasn't off topic in the slightest. We are a very accommodating bunch over here. If she's stoked and constantly posting about eating meat and pumping iron good on her, if you feel it's trolling please contact one of the mods.
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redfulcrum how much money would you say you spend on meat a day at 10lbs of meat?
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About $8/lb average. It's a bulking diet, not maintenance. I don't want look crazy big like those steroid users. Never said it would be cheap. Starting to consider getting a hunting license.
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wodgina actually Klowcarb was off topic but I guess you too failed to also read the original redfulcrum post. However, it's true that at least this thread is not the most off topic place she has posted that SAME EXACT PARAGRAPH. I guess since both redfulcrum and klowcarb are talking about raw meat then I guess that means the topic the same to you even though they are doing the complete opposite... Either way, I don't think she's a troll, It's hard to explain but I've actually gotten to know her after 8 months of reading her posts and I think she just craves online attention... but I could definitely be wrong
Redfulcrum, I don't even know where to begin on answering your comments. You've brought such great arguments to the table:water holes and not being thirsty, former soviet union, cows and lions and black girl's nice asses. I especially like that last one about black girl's nice asses, wtf? first it depends on a persons definition of nice and secondly from what i know most Americans (so including black girls) eat high carbs and not 1000 grams of protein a day so I'm not even sure how that argument backs you up.
The sad part is that, you might actually be telling the truth about your experiment and about the results you've found by overeating protein. Yet the more I read your counter arguments the more this seems like just a joke...
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I don't see how photos will prove anything.
Understand that putting almost 2lbs of muscle per day is not common and deserves proof !
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Lighten up dude! I don't want to sound like a college professor the whole time. We all know what kind of nice black girl asses I'm talking about, like Beyonce, not Monique. LOL!!!! Nitrogen and sulphur, the other just plain old hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen. Does anyone get that analogy?
Keep doubting me, I don't care. Obviously you're not a thinktank like I am. I'm just kidding around, don't take me too seriously with my playful comments. But really, I don't care.
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College Professor? They actually make sensible arguments... so Beyonce has that nice ass because she eats 1000 grams of protein from lean meat? -\ ooops never mind you don't care I'll -X
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Redfulcrum, may I ask in what state your intestines are - 10 days...it may take longer put your system will get in a mess; have you gone swimming yet? What about going for a run - things might look a little different -\
Nicola
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No, your body upregulates. You really need to hang out with morbidly obese people or bodybuilders. There's really no difference on the amount we eat, just the type of food is different for the two groups. It's fun. I can probably out eat that hotdog eating Kobayashi guy. Although, I would probably die from high blood sugar from all those buns.
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Christopher, Christopher...
I feel like I failed to explain the process of putting on muscle quickly. I guess I do have to put on my scholar cap back on... Christopher. ;)
Okay now. Got my 80's music in the backround. A bowl of meat... Check! Here we go!
Let's talk about life. What is life? At least life on Earth. It all started in this primordial soup... Blah, blah, blah... Fast forward. Ok, now onto the subject of nitrogen. Why is this element so damn important? Without nitrogen there would be no amino acids, without amino acids there would be no golden showers. Sorry for the joke, I'm sure we're all old enough in here. Is that too dirty? Get ready Christopher. I want you to picture a cow eating grass in the pasture. Why is this cow eating grass? OH, grass is cow food. Stay with me, now. So what else is she doing? Is she doing push ups? Deadlifts? Nope, she's just standing around eating grass. That's a realistic concept to you, right? Ok, so the more she eats the bigger she gets right? Is grass fed beef as fatty as grain fed beef? Hmmm... Redfulcrum might be on to something here... What is the difference between grass and grain? MAYBE, the macronutrients differ... Hmmm... Maybe more PROTEIN and less CARBOHYDRATES. So if a cow eats more grass, than could it be possible that she'll grow larger at a faster rate, all without doing deadlifts or bench presses? Keep pondering about it. Apply the same concept to humans, how do we get our protein? It's ain't celery.
I hope this clears things up for some of you guys. Christopher, did you learn something today? ;)
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At the risk of sounding politically incorrect(which I absolutely adore), might I point out that black americans are notoriously overweight by comparison to other ethnic groups, due to excessive ingestions of highly processed junk-food diets so might well have large asses(arses we call them in the UK). Whatever the case, for nefarious purposes of my own, I'm always pleased to find that raw zero-carbers are more conspiracy-theory-oriented than other RPDers. It makes us other RPDers look good by contrast.
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Interesting..
So you're eating 10 pounds of lean meat per day? And when your body feels it needs fat you binge on fat?
One thing I'm worried about is putting a load on my digestive system like that. What is your skin and bowel moments like after you started doing this? To me those 2 are always the strongest indicator if somethings right or not.
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I agree with ya. Maybe my idea of a black girl's ass is skewed more since I am from San Diego. On another note, black girls tend to have bigger butts not just from fat, but also from protein. On the flip side, look at the white girls. Most of them around DC are just skinny fat girls because they believe meat makes them fat. I rather be with a fat chick with muscles than a stick of blubber. That's so nasty looking. Black chicks are just straight up gluttons, they don't have the white girl anorexic mindset, but they devour everything. I too am a glutton, but I only eat meat so my body fat never gets out of hand. I only get chunky when I'm drinking too much. When I see a paleo body, I know what I'm talking about. Big muscles and low body fat. That's the ass I'm talking about, at least in the high end clubs in San Diego. You'll see white girls like that every now and then around here in DC, but nothing compared to the amount in San Diego. Everything is better on the west coast.
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Black people have larger butts genetically, on average. It has nothing to do with diet.
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- just in case you missed this
Interesting..
So you're eating 10 pounds of lean meat per day? And when your body feels it needs fat you binge on fat?
One thing I'm worried about is putting a load on my digestive system like that. What is your skin and bowel moments like after you started doing this? To me those 2 are always the strongest indicator if somethings right or not.
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Everything is normal. You eat and go to bathroom as needed when you need to make room, just like my cow example. It's actually not so bad, until rabbit starvation sets in. That's when your body is rejecting it and you're going all the time. Which took me a good 5 days. I guess I had enough of that mystical micro-nutrient to handle pounds and pounds of lean meat for 5 days. Imagine if I rationed that meat out further. It might have taken a few weeks for it to set in. That's just me though, I'm a healthnut, so I'm properly nourished and built up a good amount of stores. I can't say the same for the average Joe. Most of the meat is assimilated into your body. That's how you pack on weight. You eat more than you shit and piss.
The amount of food causes you to burn up like a furnace. Had to turn the heat off because I was so thermogenic. Slept in the nude.
Skin is glowing and hair shines. I look younger. Faster heal rate for zits and blemishes.(I was experimenting with sourdough whole wheat before this, bad idea. Very allergenic and androgenic.) Looks like I reversed a lot of the damage I done from last year's drinking and that damn bread.
I would definitely do it again once my stores are built back up, minus the diarrhea part. I think I'm just gonna do it for 4 days, return back to eating normal and repeat until I get to the size I want to be.
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Well, there I would disagree. During my disastrous RZC phases, I felt far hotter during periods where I consumed a lot of raw animal fat.
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You're wrong pal. Diet is everything. People look different around the world because of diet and how they use their bodies. Mexicans look short and unattractive and Chicanos are more like your standard american. Same blood line, why the difference in height and build? Look at bodybuilders, they mostly eat the same diet, same workout, they look pretty much the same. Don't give me that BS about genes. Weston Price already proved that crap wrong back in the day.
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Everything is normal. You eat and go to bathroom as needed when you need to make room, just like my cow example. It's actually not so bad, until rabbit starvation sets in. That's when your body is rejecting it and you're going all the time. Which took me a good 5 days. I guess I had enough of that mystical micro-nutrient to handle pounds and pounds of lean meat for 5 days. Imagine if I rationed that meat out further. It might have taken a few weeks for it to set in. That's just me though, I'm a healthnut, so I'm properly nourished and built up a good amount of stores. I can't say the same for the average Joe. Most of the meat is assimilated into your body. That's how you pack on weight. You eat more than you shit and piss.
The amount of food causes you to burn up like a furnace. Had to turn the heat off because I was so thermogenic. Slept in the nude.
Skin is glowing and hair shines. I look younger. Faster heal rate for zits and blemishes.(I was experimenting with sourdough whole wheat before this, bad idea. Very allergenic and androgenic.) Looks like I reversed a lot of the damage I done from last year's drinking and that damn bread.
I would definitely do it again once my stores are built back up, minus the diarrhea part. I think I'm just gonna do it for 4 days, return back to eating normal and repeat until I get to the size I want to be.
So you feel that eating such a high amount of lean proteint with high fat intervals is doing you a lot better than when you were eating regular and set quantities of meat higher in fat? Personally I feel a lot better since I started eating raw meat besides the fact that I've been having a looot of brainfog. Also my temper has been extremely short and basically anything tiny makes me rage.
I'm thinking this is because I'm not eating enough of protein thus my brain is not getting enough fuel.
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I call BS about the fat being hotter. There's about a 3% thermogenic effect for fat. No way you'll generate that much heat digesting it. It goes right thru the intestinal walls. Barely any work for the digestion system. Where do you people come up with this stuff? If it makes you so hot why don't you just drink oil and not eat meat. Maybe people don't realize how much protein is contained in an ounce of meat. Whatever, I'm getting tired of ignorant comments about fat and ketosis. I think I need to write a whole new post on this subject.
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I am trying to gain MUSCLE and not FAT. I love to eat the normal ratios, but normal ratios is going to put too much body fat on. That's where manipulating your intake comes in. I really should've started this post in the workout/bodybuilding section.
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You're wrong pal. Diet is everything. People look different around the world because of diet and how they use their bodies. Mexicans look short and unattractive and Chicanos are more like your standard american. Same blood line, why the difference in height and build? Look at bodybuilders, they mostly eat the same diet, same workout, they look pretty much the same. Don't give me that BS about genes. Weston Price already proved that crap wrong back in the day.
No, there are actual scientific studies about the genetic differences in body part size and shape between the races and subraces. Please don't argue this with me. I'd like to leave you with a shred if credibility, and you won't have any left if you keep going. I can link studies all day, my friend.
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Whatever we're all created to do one thing. HUNT! Don't tell me this genetic crap about butts. Everyone needs big butts to hunt. If everyone ate right, and chased animals and lifted things, I guarantee there butt would develop correctly. I used to think asians have no butts. They sure don't over here in DC, my viewpoint changed when I was up in Orange County, CA. Not every damn study is valid. Use your noggin dude. And even if it were genetic, it still takes protein to develop a butt. So it still goes back to diet. We all have malnutrition, more or less.
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Hi redfulcrum, which one out of 4 in the pic is you?
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So go to Wallgreens, take off your shirt, get a strip of three pictures taken and put them on line. Next week, after you've put on another ten pounds of MUSCLE, do the same at Wallgreens. You appear most naive that even if you have put on ten pounds of muscle, that you know now the real truth about diet and health. Let's just see what happens in the near future and not so near. Oh, and how taking your blood sugar levels at regular intervals for this period of time. For if you're right about all of this, other world 'experts' will be knocking at your door for more information. And you'll be on your way to becoming famous. Not that that would be what you'd want. But probably would happen anyway. Keep us posted.
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Hi redfulcrum, which one out of 4 in the pic is you?
I bet the one in front.
That pink shirt is a lot pinker than my pink shirt! :D
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Yup sure did, I learned that Asian people on internet forums are more entertaining than some of the comedians on comedy central, but somehow I don't think that was the lesson you wanted me to learn ;D
I wish I was a think tank like you so I could not only understand your super high intelligence theories but also to get all the girls... okay okay i'll give it one more try, let me re-read your post... :o
I totally get it now, you are SOO RIGHT! That cow analogy just made everything so clear, how did I not think of this before (well I'm not a think tank duh), your theory has absolutely no flaws now!
I mean regardless if during the bellevue trial, the scientist tried to force Stefansson to eat just lean meat for a week and the only results they got was weakness, loss of weight, diarrea, etc... (basically rabbit starvation) They must have just forgot to put in the results that Stefansson grew 10 pounds of muscle!
OH and who cares about those reports from explorers talking about different hunter gatherers who would actually refuse to eat lean meat and actually munch on some vegetation instead. They just didn't know what you knew! How foolish where they thinking that they needed FAT or at least carbs to go with protein... ;D
I know, I know, it sounds like I'm just a hater who is going to be a slave with the rest of society but hey you should at least be somewhat happy that I do agree with some things that you said, mostly that I think it's good for the human body to once in a while gorge on meat. However, I have a problem with your macronutrient ratios. Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is any magical ratio that a human needs to measure on a daily basis but to purposely set protein intake over 50% of daily calories, in my opinion is not a good idea. But the thing is, I'm starting to think that in reality we aren't actually disagreeing, I just think your estimates on how much protein to fat you are eating are wrong (so much for Asians being good at math too....), even if a person were to eat just chuck steaks and therefore including the thin but visible surrounding fat they would in reality be consuming around 60% of calories from FAT!
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I bet the one in front.
That pink shirt is a lot pinker than my pink shirt! :D
Actually it turns out that redfulcrum is the dark skinned guy with the pink shirt. No wonder you gained 10 pounds of muscle when you were extremely skinny to begin with...
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Do you mind providing the board with the full details of your experiment?
What exactly and what amount where you eating before you started. What made you decide on the amount of meat to consume? My calculations come up with 11-13 pounds of meat per day, or around 70-90 pounds for the week. How much total weight did you gain? Did you cook the meat? How much did you weigh before and how much do you weigh now? Are you still eating the same amount? Have you continued to increase muscle mass? Did you test your strength before and after?
How do you know how much muscle you gained? Did you measure body-fat percentage? If you continue eating 12 pounds of meat a day will you continue to add muscle at the same rate?
Thanks for the time
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My calculations come up with 11-13 pounds of meat per day, or around 70-90 pounds for the week.
i'm curious how you came up with your calculations. why 11-13 pounds per day?
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God there are so many douchebags on this forum.
He's sharing an experiment obviously he's totally pumped with the results. Perhaps it's not 10lbs or perhaps it is?
How about you clean up your act? I for one really appreciate this post.
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Assuming lean beef is 90/10 which means that it is 10% fat and 90% non-fat protein and water. The part that is free of fat is about 80% water. So a 100g piece of meat would be 10g fat and 18g protein (90g x .2) and 72g water. You can check the usda nutritional data base to check the exactness. To achieve 1000g of protein you'd need 5-6 kg (6kg*.18 = 1080g protein) of meat.
Even if the meat had no fat which is impossible, you'd get 20g of protein per 100g making 5 kg or 11 pounds the minimum.
Actually, I just checked the database found here http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
From a 100g 95/5 sample of ground beef there was 21.4g (77% not 80%) protein not the 19g my method provided so my calcs are going to be 10% higher so he'd need to eat 10-12 pounds to get 1000g protein.
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Paleo Donk, your logic does not make sense.
If I gain 1lb of muscle it does not mean I gained 1lb of pure protein. Human muscles are not that much different from other meats and are probably 70-80% water by weight.
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On the topic of women, has anyone else experienced getting more looks from women? I'm 33 and i've never gotten attention from them but lately when i'm walking around in a mall, maybe 1 or 2 women out of 100+ might check me out a lil, that doesn't happen often but it never did before, ever. Something changed for sure, i can't tell what it is because i don't think i look different other than gaining 5 pounds. I've been cooked ZC for 6 months, slowly transitionning to raw ZC because cooked meat gives me post-nasal drip (mucus). Before ZC, i was either SAD or raw vegan, i've pretty much never eaten meat in my life because when i was SAD, i rarely ate meat, mostly pasta, beans, etc. There has to be something to a meat diet that makes us more desirable to females.
ps: this thread is funny.
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ys, there is no logic its just math, you just haven't understood it. He said he was eating 1000g of protein a day. To get this amount you need 10-12 pounds of meat. I do know human muscle is about the same percentage of water as that of cow muscle, so you could eat 10-12 pounds of human meat if you wanted to and get about the same amount of protein.
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you are right, i have not read it through.
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oh really forthehunt? I'm a douchebag because I asked for explanations or some kind of proof but instead I got silly nonsensical answers and analogies? Perhaps afterwards, I've been a sarcastic "douchebag" as you claim but at least I'm not gullible like you. How about you actually read the bellevue trial or google rabbit starvation if you really want to know what happens when a person stuffs themselves with lean meat. Or better yet, prove this douchebag wrong, take some pictures of yourself now and do mr. redfulcrums experiment for a week (even though it takes less than that lol) and after you've build the 10 pounds of muscles you can not only TELL us how great it was but actually SHOW us...
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I give up. I'm a stupid liar. You win Christopher.
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alright redfulcrum, you win! I'm a stupid hater. You're right
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God there are so many douchebags on this forum.
He's sharing an experiment obviously he's totally pumped with the results. Perhaps it's not 10lbs or perhaps it is?
How about you clean up your act? I for one really appreciate this post.
Frankly, I don't want to see the kid hurt himself.
If he's somehow managed to attain even a third of what he's bragging about he's putting his body through a lot of stress and it's really, really not healthy.
I'm tired of trying to reason though; let him add some chlorine to the gene pool as it needs it.
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You goofball redfulcrum. you did a 5 day experiment and are back here waving your dick around with your amazing results? I am sure that you believe that happened, but how do you know you put on 10lbs of muscle? I mean you have just eaten 50lbs of meat. If meat is mainly water mabye you are just swollen or something? im trying to say that a single, 5 day experiment is not something that i would concider official results.
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This thread is entertaining.
I myself cannot consume more than 1 kg of raw meat a day.
Won't fit in my stomach. I'm a small asian man.
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Christopher, I apologize for the ego trip I've been giving you. You did say you were a new member and so was I at one time. I am willing to turn off my ego for the benefit of everyone else and yours. So let's try keep this post going intelligently and objectively. Again, I am sorry.
FYI, I only look young and small in the avatar because I just came off a very long fast. The others know how much I preach about fasting. I am currently 170lbs. at 5'9" and 28 years old. I think I was about 150 in that pic, which was taken in early December. That girl in the pic decided to have a "Pretty in Pink" theme for her birthday night out. Besides, I can rock pink, or shall I say SALMON. :)
Back to this mystery muscle development. I've been sitting around thinking why don't the numbers add up. I really didn't count how much meat I ate. It wasn't a exactly a controlled experiment. So I will tell you how it all happened and why I decided to venture this route.
I was researching something called the ANABOLIC DRIVE last week. It's a term they use in bodybuilding when there's an excess amount of amino acids in your blood, it makes your body want to soak it up like a sponge. Kind of like the same way high blood sugar works, it has to go somewhere, otherwise you have a problem. It is said to turn on all the anabolic hormones when this happens. Insulin, Testosterone, etc...
I already knew that to gain muscle you needed an excess amount of calories, but do they all have to be dependent on each other. For example, in the ANABOLIC DIET, you're told to eat 40% protein and 60% fat and the carb is negligible because I don't do them and it said no more than 30g or so. So bulking up would mean you kept the same ratio and just increase the calories. You know how I don't like it when things sound like doctrine. So, I figured why not just eat maintenance and add more protein calories. Protein is what build most of the muscle tissue, not fat. Sounded like a plan for a lean bulk.
From there I said, what the heck. Been there before, it's not so bad. I've had rabbit starvation before, it's easy to deal with, just eat some fat when you start feeling sick.
So, I ventured into the abyss. I was on a force feeding mission. Drank beer and ate meat. Ate meat with rice. At meat every 2 hours. Stayed up all night eating meat. Eating is very hard when you're trying to bulk up. It's not enjoyable. Go ask Taylor Lautner when he bulked up for NEW MOON. It took him 8 months. I doubt he's determined as I was, but he's a busy dude. I got time on my hands. So for the whole week, it was just meat. Obviously, I am not working or have a life at the moment because school is out. For all of you that don't know, I just separated from the Navy last May.
Things I've noticed:
-Beautiful skin regeneration
-Hair regeneration
-Stronger nails
-Healed joints- no more clicks (I was thinking about getting glucosamine, but then I looked at the word GLUCOSAMINE, turns out it's made from amino acids and glucose. What a ripoff product, just eat meat.)
-Healed infections- thrush, jock itch, ear pain
-Bigger muscles
-Increased Libido- increased size in you know what. Maybe Nitric Oxide? ;)
-Major heat generation- had to sleep naked without covers sometimes. Could explain the why numbers don't add up. Protein has a TEF of 30%.
-Increased Thirst- HYDRATE, HYDRATE, HYDRATE
That's about it. I thought I said I could eat 1000 grams, even more in one WHOLE day. That's 24 hours. Maybe it's not as easy as I make it sound, but it's doable. It's a job, believe me. Counterstrike, beer and meat a whole day isn't so bad. The beer is for the insulin drive. It minimizes most use of your other macronutrients when you are drinking. Remember I ate a normal fatty diet for maintenance and the extra was all lean. I had all types of organ meats and avocado for maintenance and took many supplements including fermented cod liver oil and high vitamin butter oil.
5 days later diarrhea, more muscle and minimal fat gains. Believe me, I starred in the mirror the whole time. It was amazing how much change you can force your body to go through.
Any other questions? I hope I'm helping you guys.
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I like hearing about this personal experiment.
It is understandable to gain a good deal of weight if you just came from a long fast.
This makes me want to experiment on myself.
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I have Just read true the post sounds good :-)
Well this im writing now is a litle background why im here. It all started when i bought this new dog german sheperd very active dog and very much predator/hunter type of dog i promized myself to give her good food too so i studied and found Barf the best choice. If u compare this bitch with other dogs u will notice my dog is loaded with muscles and looks great the above u describe with hair skin etc all matches inline too with a dog, but let me state that my dog has been eating better than me for over a year know, houston we have a problem i NEED MEAT TOO and raw, redicilius somehow to think about it but i must say to people its time to wake up! including me !
look at us humans we are predators! hint predatory chain try google it, Raymond and Lorna Coppinger (1) describe basic canine predatory behaviors in seven steps: orient, eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect.
we are the only animal cooking food LOL LOL
alpha78
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How much bigger did your wang get?
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This thread is ludicrous. Gaining 10lbs of muscle in less than a week is impossible, and you most certainly will gain fat on zero carb if you gorge and don't exercise. Check what forum you are in - most of us are not only familiar with but have actually been on or are on this diet. I'm glad you're seeing positives from it though, but don't exaggerate so much.
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I've actually gotten to know her after 8 months of reading her posts and I think she just craves online attention... but I could definitely be wrong
-v Right, Chris. Which is why you post here, on ZIOH, on PaNu, etc. I'm sorry you haven't been able to solve your issues on ZC. I don't mean that sarcastically. I know how much you love MMA and I wish you had the energy I do. I cannot relate to your issues and I think you are a strong person for dealing with them. But I'm just posting about my experience, which I have every right to. Your sarcasm is cute, but you overrate your charm.
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Please show me the metabolic pathway for converting proteins to fat, invisible. I've read up a biochem book also before I did it. I couldn't find lipogenesis from excess amino acids. Lipogenesis can only come from excess glucose. That's why I keep bring up the whole hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen thing.
Anabolic reactions/storage
Glucose turns into glycogen and triglycerides/fats. The latter which creates the problem of obesity in our modern society.
Fats can only be stored as fats.
Proteins can only be stored as protein. The body will not waste energy turning protein into fat, that doesn't make any sense and bodybuilding wouldn't be possible if that were so. It would be a net loss ATP reaction which means it's not going to burn fat just to make less fat. If you read the post completely you would've ran into that, INVISIBLE.
Catabolic reactions/storage
Glycogen will be released as glucose.
Fats will break down into free fatty acids and glycerol, the latter which can be used to make glucose but it's not enough for the body, especially the brain.
Protein will break down into amino acids and glucose when needed.
So please, do let me know If I am wrong about these metabolic processes. If you are right, where does muscle come from? You can't stretch atoms, you can only increase their amounts. Unless you know about some physics I don't know about.
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Gaining 10lbs of muscle in less than a week is impossible, and you most certainly will gain fat on zero carb if you gorge and don't exercise.
I've gained what appeared to be seven pounds of muscle in a week, and I wasn't even eating meat. Maybe rf did gain ten. Maybe he's lying. I have no way to know which. I'll watch it unfold.
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Yes Katelyn, I post at different forums but I dont post the same exact paragraph in each thread. Yes, you are right I'm not very charming and I do have energy problems as in I can't train like I would like in my MMA practice, but at least I don't have an ed.
Redfulcrum, I apologize too since to be honest I have to give you the benefit of the doubt because it is possible that you are telling the truth. However, the only beef I really have with you know is that you didn't do a carnivorous diet because you said it yourself, you drank a lot of beer (carbs)and ate avocados and rice (carbs) so it's hard to say if those carbs might have played a role in your success as well.
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Redfulcrum, I hope you aren't planning to do your rabbit starvation binges longterm. That doesn't sound healthy to me. You might want to research rabbit starvation and the other subjects you made some unusual claims about. I'm not interested in debating them, but I don't get the impression that you did a lot of study on them.
Katelyn may disagree with most of us, but having met her in person I feel I can safely say she's nice, so I think we should cut her some slack. She's also a convert to raw meat, so that's good advertising for the forum.
Katelyn, do you get a feeling of well being--sort of a mild euphoria--after eating raw ground beef like I do? Originally I was going to do all-raw for a while, then go back to trying cooked ZC, but I like the mild euphoria so much I can't imagine going back to cooked. I can understand why that would make you want to eat only raw ground beef. Hope you don't mind questions and suggested ideas, but I do wonder whether you should be eating some organs too on occasion, though I know Charles doesn't believe they're necessary at all. I think you said you eat 80/20 ground beef. What does that translate into in terms of % of total calories that is fat? Have you had your vitamin D (25-hydroxy vitamin D) level checked? If you've read PaNu you probably know how much Dr. Harris advocates vitamin D.
I think if you put on 5 or 10 pounds people might go easier on you. I've managed to hit my early target of 140 lbs (after having bottomed out at 122 lbs on a higher-carb cooked Paleo diet--cooked squash and tomatoes seemed particularly bad for me). Admittedly, some of it is fat, but I think it helps people relax if they see a little fat on me, since I'm not very muscular and it also proves that I don't freak out if I've got a little body fat, and I don't think a little Paleo-induced body fat is necessarily bad for me.
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Chris, I didn't pick a fight with you. I do wish you well. So I'll end it here. No more talk of RAW GROUND BEEF -d.
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Good to know we're on better terms again, Christopher. I didn't use it all the time. I was exploring the androgenic effects of carbohydrates and alcohol. Carbs are very androgenic, meaning they cause your body to release a lot of male hormones like testosterone. After ingestion of meat, I would eat certain amount of carbs to try to produce a pimple. It worked, and it didn't take much at all. Acne is caused by excess testosterone. Carbs also made me really horny after eating a lot of meat. I see why they try to serve dessert after dinner now. Females beware.
If you ever read about HARD GAINER DIETS they have a very high carb to protein ratio possibly to create a androgenic effect. In fact I know it does. I can break out after a slice of bread easily. I stumbled onto this testosterone theory when I was reading about Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome(PCOS) and how a low carb diet can stop the disease. The disease is basically and endocrine problem. The ovaries release too much testosterone because of the carbohydrates in the diet. Then a lightbulb lit up in my head. I figured there was a connection between testosterone and carbohydrates. So I thought of giving it a try and it worked. You will feel strong and courageous after eating some carbs after a high protein meal and overly sexual. Talk about a confidence booster. Alcohol does the same thing. Liquid Courage is real.
There aren't much carbs in an avocado. It's a very nutritious fruit, one of the only ones I think worth eating. Remember the bulk of the diet was lean meat, which is very deficient in nutrients compared to the fatter cuts or organs. I did eat pounds of shrimp too, they were easy to take down and better than lean muscle.
I have a whole other theory that adult animals do not eat as much carbs, it seems this energy source is only used for the young to grow. Starch in the seeds for plants, honey for bee larvae, lactose for mammalian young, etc... it all opened up to me. This would explain why the endocrine system turns on full blast in the presence of high blood sugar.
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EVERYONE PLEASE!!!! I know what I'm doing. If you guys had read my post completely, you should understand what I'm trying to do. I know how to eat a paleo diet. I know eating lean in not normal. I know about rabbit starvation, I just went thru it on wednesday. Calm down. Go preach to someone who is eating a big mac or something. Please, let me learn. Someone has to figure out how this machine works? I will be fine. I used to be a medic in the Navy. Didn't I say it was an experiment? Bodybuilders don't stay on bulking diets forever. Do I appear to be illogical or ignorant? I do appreciate your concerns, thank you.
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You're welcome! :D
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Paleohil, no offense, you're 140? Are you short? I don't agree with men being that light. Sorry, my honest opinion. Eat up dude.
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Do you think the carbs in liver could produce the same testosterone boosting effects?
I'd be willing to give something like this a shot in a fully raw format provided I could do it while avoiding foods that I do poorly on (food allergies). A 3 to 4 day trial shouldn't be that bad and if eating raw I'd think ~4 pounds of meat would more than do.
For the record I don't think this will work but I'm willing to test my beliefs on myself.
Paleohil, no offense, you're 140? Are you short? I don't agree with men being that light. Sorry, my honest opinion. Eat up dude.
AFAIK Phil's always been light. He's trying to bulk up it's just a slow process.
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I don't think the liver will release glucose that quickly. Your endocrine system runs very well without carbs. Only carbs with a high glycemic effect can cause anabolism to speed up because your body has no way to control the absorption rate. Well any carbs really, it all depends on how fast it absorbs. It's all up to the user of the machine. Can't be running on Nitrous Oxide all the time. Your car will eventually fail. If they're ignorant, they'll ruin this ecosystem within the body by ingesting this killer crap. Now, that I'm aware of it, it's the same as steroid use. Over time, the body will break down, just like any other anabolic steroid use. Different people, different sensitivity rates, just like prescription drugs. I just happened to be one of them that gets it without eating that much.
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Go to youtube and pull up a bodybuilder bulking diet. You think I eat a lot. Check it out, I think many of you guys aren't aware of how much food you need to eat to gain muscles. Eating makes you grow. Look at those big giant tomatoes. How did they get so big? They overfeed it. Plants eat too you know.
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...AFAIK Phil's always been light. He's trying to bulk up it's just a slow process.
You're basically right, though I did have a period on the SAD where I had a lot of flab and for the first time in my life people started saying I was too fat (and my triglycerides shot through the roof, my HDL was real low, my GI tract was shot, I developed kidney stones, urinary tract infections, etc. ... in other words, the fat wasn't worth it).
As I said, I've already gone from 122 lbs to 140 lbs. I didn't think further explanation was necessary, since that's an upwards direction. I'm now within the "normal" BMI range, though would still be considered too thin by most Americans (though probably not Asian Indians, Bushmen, Masai and other really thin peoples). For most of my adult years I was around 135 lbs. I was born very thin and all of my relatives were thin in their youth.
My mother used to joke that if she stood sideways the other kids couldn't hit her with snowballs--by her photos she looked like one of the thinnest children I've ever seen...the local government people even wanted to take her and her siblings away from their mother because they figured she was starving them. Back then they didn't know that gluten was highly toxic for a lot of people. Since then we've learned that I and many of my relatives do very poorly on gluten. So I'll likely always be much thinner than avg on a raw Paleo diet. It's something I'll probably have to live with. I'm eating tons of food, doing large-muscle resistance exercises and putting on some weight, so I'm pleased with my progress. I currently eat about 2.3+ pounds of meat, fat and eggs a day. So, in other words, I am already "eating up dude." It's the max I can currently stomach.
My father weighs about 150-155 lbs and both my grandfathers weighed probably about 140-145 lbs when they were healthy. I'm only a little taller than their heights. So I'm not far off the family mean healthy weight for the men in my family at this point.
BTW redfulcrum, vitamin D3 is a muscle-boosting hormone and much healthier than excessive carbs. I don't know how much carbs you're eating, but check out the blogs of Dr. William Davis, Dr. Kurt Harris, and Stephan Guyenet, the Nephropal blog, Peter's Hyperlipid blog, and the ZeroingInOnHealth forum for info on why lots of carbs are not a good idea. Those folks probably know a lot more about carbs than you and me put together. Even Tyler only eats a range of up to around 35% calories as carbs, by his rough estimate. That seems to be around the safe maximum, with a few gene-gifted people able to go higher and remain healthy. Some people, like me, have to do less carbs to stay healthy.
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Screw carbs, they take away my sexiness. Can't live without being sexy. LOL!!!!
The BMI thing is bogus, so is the naturally thin concept. I bet if we were both raised in mongolia around in the Great Khan times(remember this conversation, LOL!!!), we would both be stocky.
I was only 145 when I graduated high school. I always thought it was genetics like everyone says. That's why that one guy pissed me off earlier about the genetics thing and butts. That's so much BS. If that were so true bodybuilding wouldn't exist. Some of those guys used to be fat or small like I was.
It wasn't my fault I was taught to eat the SAD. My parents were immigrants and we were poor. I can't blame them. I blame the bastards that setup civilization up in the first place. Think about it. The earth crust is a fixed amount, and we might get extra stuff from meteorites here and there, but life evolved millions of millions of years with the same fixed material. If our population started out at around 40,000 and now we're numbering 6 billion, how in the world can everyone be healthy. It's impossible, that's why I keep talking in circles with some of these people on here because someone's parents fed them soy formula when they were younger. Just kidding around, you know what I mean. The more people, the uglier they get, the dumber they get, the sicker they get. It's degeneration of the whole species. Dr. Weston Price is a genius. That's what happens when something interferes with an ecosystem. The funny thing is maybe these GODS did exist in the past. They developed these stupid grains and now we're in this big pile of crap that stinks all over for everyone and everything on this planet.
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Remember the bulk of the diet was lean meat, which is very deficient in nutrients compared to the fatter cuts or organs.
I've been assuming that meat is the major source of nutrients, while fat is minor and mostly used for energy if raw ZC adapted.
Have you a url for this claim?
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Whatever we're all created to do one thing. HUNT! Don't tell me this genetic crap about butts. Everyone needs big butts to hunt. If everyone ate right, and chased animals and lifted things, I guarantee there butt would develop correctly. I used to think asians have no butts. They sure don't over here in DC, my viewpoint changed when I was up in Orange County, CA. Not every damn study is valid. Use your noggin dude. And even if it were genetic, it still takes protein to develop a butt. So it still goes back to diet. We all have malnutrition, more or less.
OK, do you want me to link to the studies? You're running on empty with your credibility.
Use my noggin? Are you kidding me? I'm a moderator here for a reason. I know what I'm talking about.
You're cruising for a ban.
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Sounds like your abusing your authority, I just said you to use your noggin. Not like I said something that mean or personal. Ban me if you want to act that petty.
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What are you? the all knowing forums admin. Who runs this show?
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Can you believe this guy? Threaten to ban me instead of trying to debate his point of view. Sounds like he's The Almighty himself.
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Wow, this is outstanding. From someone else I wouldn't really care about, but from a moderator that self proclaimed to know what he's talking about. How did you ever become a moderator in the first place and what reason is it that you are one? I can't believe this is happening. Is there a full moon out tonight? This guy.
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Here comes the debate. You're not behaving in a manner worthy of being debated on the subject, and I'm 70% certain I'm going to ban you. However, here is the link, with citations included within it, that proves my point:
isteve.blogspot.com/2007/09/black-v-white-physical-differences-in.html (http://isteve.blogspot.com/2007/09/black-v-white-physical-differences-in.html)
Scroll down to see the extensive bibliography.
I have noticed that black people tend to have larger buttocks for many years. It has nothing to do with diet. It's genetic. I'm not saying that every black person has larger buttocks than every white person...there's plenty of overlap between the races in size of all body parts, not just buttocks. However, on average, there are differences in a number of body part sizes between races. It's a fact. You can study up on it if you want, but I'm warning you, a ban is coming if you don't back down on this, and change your tone and posting style. Your behavior is basically coming pretty close to trolling, you're not teaching any of us anything new. We have plenty of ZC people and bodybuilders here, and my philosophy is, you better obey forum rules carefully if you're not bringing anything new to the discussion. I'm not playing.
Here's another link, specifically mentioning how blacks have more muscle mass on their limbs, and less in the torso:
racehist.blogspot.com/2009/12/racial-differences-in-muscle-mass.html (http://racehist.blogspot.com/2009/12/racial-differences-in-muscle-mass.html)
I'm not saying that eating a diet very high in muscle meat won't change your musculature. Sure it will. However, your hypothesis was that the difference between black and white buttock size is diet-related. It is not. The black and white people I know all eat about the same diet, and the black people have larger buttocks, on average. As well, the papers I linked above also remove credibility for your hypothesis.
Let me be clear--you will do one of three things.
1. Retract your statement
2. Provide support in the form of links to scientific studies
3. Be banned.
You will also be banned if you do not change your posting style and tone to a more respectful one. I don't have to tolerate your behavior. We are here to learn about diet, not to be preached at. :)
Here's one more link:
erectuswalksamongst.us/Chap10.html (http://erectuswalksamongst.us/Chap10.html)
Here's a quote from that link:
"22) The gluteal (buttocks) muscles in Africans and Caucasians are “stacked,” but they are “offset” in Asians, making Asian buttocks flatter. These muscles are thicker in blacks."
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That's the hoops I have to jump through. What if i want to talk about it and I can't find a study to back it up, so I get banned. You think studying modern people is a good representation of our genetics? Nutrition is a big factor in the development of human beings. If this study was made during paleo times would things be different? You don't think black's bones are denser because they don't care about the food pyramid like white's do? Are my points not valid? Maybe it's the chitterlings with their fat soluble vitamins that keeps their bones strong. When was the last time you heard white people eating guts? I don't see how your study proves anything.
I am not retracting my statement.
I am not finding any study to prove my point. Why does everything need proof? They have PROOF about fat and cholesterol, but that doesn't make it true. We all know that. That's why we're all here for the same reason, because we know the PROOF is wrong.
Go ahead and ban me if I can't even speak my mind here. I thought this is a laid back place to meet others and talk about RPD, not some authoritative censored forum. I think you're out of line.
BTW, I already messaged the main man.
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Let us not be so hasty towards a person that is so keen to make ground that they aren't afraid to step on toes. The important thing are his intentions, and they are good.
This debate is stimulating and positive on the whole, and should be a part of our forum.
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I'm enjoying this thread. I may do some kind of experiment like this too.
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I just consulted with my wife's cousin who is a body builder.
He says the rule of thumb to gain muscle is 1 gram of protein per 1 pound of body weight.
So my 125 lbs needs at least 125 grams of protein.
If 100 grams of lean sirloin beef = 21 grams of protein
I will need at least 600 grams of lean sirloin beef a day to bulk up.
He says eat protein first thing in the morning, then every 3 hours.
It's a worthy experiment for me to do.
I will gun for 1 kilo of lean beef equivalent a day.
In the mix I could use raw tuna as it is easier to digest I can do the every 3 hour eating.
small fish with guts and oysters are cheap, I'll try to get duck eggs again.
1 kilo of beef is around P 300 / kilo or something like $ 6.50 cents a day for you guys in the USA.
My max a day is usually just 1/2 kilo of beef with 1/4 of the volume being fat.
This is a worthy experiment easy enough for me to do.
I will try to start tomorrow.
What I learned about the body building thing is that they all find real meat expensive and bulky. So many of them resort to those whey proteins which are cheap, convenient and compact. Of course this is not my cup of tea.
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That's the hoops I have to jump through. What if i want to talk about it and I can't find a study to back it up, so I get banned. You think studying modern people is a good representation of our genetics? Nutrition is a big factor in the development of human beings. If this study was made during paleo times would things be different? You don't think black's bones are denser because they don't care about the food pyramid like white's do? Are my points not valid? Maybe it's the chitterlings with their fat soluble vitamins that keeps their bones strong. When was the last time you heard white people eating guts? I don't see how your study proves anything.
I am not retracting my statement.
I am not finding any study to prove my point. Why does everything need proof? They have PROOF about fat and cholesterol, but that doesn't make it true. We all know that. That's why we're all here for the same reason, because we know the PROOF is wrong.
Go ahead and ban me if I can't even speak my mind here. I thought this is a laid back place to meet others and talk about RPD, not some authoritative censored forum. I think you're out of line.
BTW, I already messaged the main man.
You are in fact required to back up your statements. We are not a bunch of friends casually discussing things. Some people might become friends over time, but I don't want people to become too comfortable with me here. I want to be known as someone who expects statements of fact about diet to actually be backed up with both scientific studies and anecdotal evidence. I'm here to learn factual information about nutrition. I can direct you to several social forums, if you aren't interested in backing up statements of fact.
I've been studying diet since before you ever heard of a raw food diet, and I take fact very seriously. There are a lot of lies about diet in the world, and getting to the truth about it is a years-long task.
Dude, your stereotyping of black people as a bunch of chitterling-eaters is laughably wrong. How do I know this? Because I grew up around black kids, and have worked with a lot of black folks my entire adult life. Some do eat chitterlings, plenty of them don't.
You really need to CAREFULLY read the links I posted, and rethink your statement. Black people do not have randomly larger calf muscles, or throat muscles, etc. They have larger buttocks muscles. If we were talking about a dietary effect, it would affect all muscle groups more equally, most likely.
Good God, this is ridiculous. I can't believe I'm actually having to tell people that not all black people eat chitterlings. What Universe did I just get transported into?
Seriously, it is not helping the credibility of our forum to have members stereotyping other races.
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goodsamaritan
Raw milk and liver tablets every 3 hours can do it too many bodybuilders do that too. some make it with raw liver in milk,eggs and honey every 3 hour.
I too will soon start to bulk up but this is done with trainning in a 8 week cyckle then a break for 2 or 3 weeks i just want more fat in my meat :-)
alpha
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Good God, this is ridiculous. I can't believe I'm actually having to tell people that not all black people eat chitterlings. What Universe did I just get transported into?
Seriously, it is not helping the credibility of our forum to have members stereotyping other races.
I agree it's ridiculous.
It's also one new member making the comment so I don't see it damning the credibility of the whole forum.
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We are here to learn about diet, not to be preached at. :)
We can all agree on the first part, but as for preaching, if thundering great statements of belief unsupported by credible evidence qualify, TD's philosophy needs to be examined. ;)
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Redfulcrum,
You seem like the kind of dude who'll go balls to the wall for a bit of knowledge, I respect that. I'm not questioning whether or not you put on 10 lbs in a week, or whether you were able to eat tons of meat in a day.
I do question the claim that it was muscle. I could put on 5 lbs this very week with a MUCH less extreme version of what you're doing, but it's comprised of water, glycogen (all glycogen is stored with an equal amt of water), bowel weight, fat, and muscle. Muscle being only a fraction of the total weight.
For quite awhile I've been eating plenty of raw meat and grains (Father forgive me for I have sinned). Maybe I'll post the details of what I've been up to the past few months on another thread. Anyways, one of the first things I notice when going back to a VLC, high fat diet (from a diet high in grains), is that my bowels will quickly clean out in a day or 2, and I'll lose 2-3 lbs of what was primarily stored food in the intestines. Getting back in to ketosis also means lower glycogen levels, which means less inflated looking muscles. I lift heavy in the gym (heavy for me). At 173lbs I deadlift 300lbs for 2 sets of 5, squat 245lb for 2 sets of 8. After a week of adjusting to ketosis, my size and body weight have gone down slightly, but my strength is the same as right before cutting the carbs.
What does this tell me? It tells me that I have roughly the same amount of muscle fibers as before, even though I am a good 5 lbs lighter. So when you say that you've put on 10 lbs of muscle, but then confess that you've been eating grains and drinking beer, I already know from research and experience the effect that has on the body. Yes, carbs have an anabolic response, and if not used for energy or glycogen, will get converted to fat. There is no real impetus on the body to store carbs as glycogen unless you are using it up during exercise which must then be replenished.
Furthermore, you haven't posted any results about how much you can lift, so it's even harder to say whether this really was all muscle or not. And trust me, 10lbs of muscle would be DRAMATIC in the difference of what you could lift. Not only that, you're an IF'er. From what you've said, your weight fluctuates dramatically because of this. Makes sense that you're body is well adapted to feast and famine.
And of course, given some of your remarks, I have to allow for a little bit of embellishement on your part. Realistically, I believe that you may have put on 9 lbs in 8 days, eating UP to 6-8 lbs of meat in maybe 1 or 2, 24 hour periods. Probably put on a couple lbs of muscle (b/c yes, eating is definitely anabolic), a pound of water weight, a couple pounds of fat, and the rest as gut weight.
It seems like you've done some research on metabolic pathways and macronutrient utilization. If you really are a truth seeker, and as long as you're going to put yourself through such extremes, I would attempt to put a few metrics on your results. Take weight, waist, chest, and arm circumfrence measurements every morning. Go to the gym a couple times a week, and see if you're getting stronger. Make posts about your strategies, results, and questions. Talk WITH us about what you're doing, instead of talking AT us about what you're doing.
We'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you did put on 10lbs in a week, but it's doubtful that it was mostly muscle. And even if 3-4 lbs was muscle, we can very well suspect that it was related to already being underweight from fasting.
If you can show us changes in body measurements, lifting capability, and maybe even a picture for those visual learners that back up your statements; AND you can sustain this type of growth over a few months; then you will gain some credibility.
Cherimoya, please do us a favor and don't ban Redfulcrum. A little overdone on the anecdoetes and tone, a little underdone on the evidence and explanations, but I think overall a genuine guy. Let's see if he can cowboy up and contribute to our knowledge base before excluding him.
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Thanks Guittar man, well written my exact sentiments. I remember in high school, friends put on on over 30 pounds over the summer. Most of it came from Beer. But again, I like the tone of your words, supportive yet encouraging one to take responsibility for their claims.
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Does science back up the claim that excess protein is converted to glucose? or is there a certain % of protein that is converted to glucose regardless of the quantity consummed?
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wow guitarman, that was a great post. thank you for that insight
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Does science back up the claim that excess protein is converted to glucose? or is there a certain % of protein that is converted to glucose regardless of the quantity consummed?
See that's the main problem, I don't think science really knows because I've read different things from different medical bloggers and different pubmed articles. Some say that all extra protein is converted to glucose, others say only the amount needed by the body is converted to glucose while the rest of the protein not needed is discarded and I've also read that only the amount needed of protein is converted to the body while the rest ends up being stored as fat. So who knows, I guess it would be interesting if a solid amount of people on this forum tried doing this type of experiment for a week and just see what happens
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I'm quite satisfied with Lex's accounts.
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i dont know, with all the comments about asses and getting chicks i call ROIDS on this dude and say maybe he grew ten #'s of nutsack and zits from all the testosterone?
just kidding i like black booties too
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...I was only 145 when I graduated high school. I always thought it was genetics like everyone says. That's why that one guy pissed me off earlier about the genetics thing and butts. That's so much BS. If that were so true bodybuilding wouldn't exist. Some of those guys used to be fat or small like I was.
You seem to be reading more into it than I intended. I'm not claiming that genetics determines everything and environment has no effect. Neither would I claim that genetics plays no role. Both genetics and environment are factors.
If our population started out at around 40,000 and now we're numbering 6 billion, how in the world can everyone be healthy. It's impossible, ... The more people, the uglier they get, the dumber they get, the sicker they get. It's degeneration of the whole species. ...
All we can do is try to make the best of a difficult situation.
I am not finding any study to prove my point. Why does everything need proof?
That's troll talk. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan (see here for why: http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2008/01/extraordinary-c.html )
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Whats the most efficient post workout meal you all have experienced?
is there such a meal that will induce the same effects of a post-carb
meal.... maybe eating enough protein to induce the insulin?
is that possible?
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Doesn't too much protein without ample fat stress your heart...?
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Whats the most efficient post workout meal you all have experienced?
is there such a meal that will induce the same effects of a post-carb
meal.... maybe eating enough protein to induce the insulin?
is that possible?
I don't usually eat after a workout (running and cycling though, not lifting). If I find I'm hungry though it's more of the same; beef fat and meat. :)
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If i put myself in a caveman's shoes...
and I just ran my ass off taking down a wholly mammoth
the first thing Id do is rip that animal open and start eating
till I threw up lol... I doubt that that caveman would reach for a potato
quinoa or yam
but ate enough protein + fat to induce something? just my 2 cents
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We can't always cite studies to prove a point.There are many unusual things that RVAFers have discovered which simply defy any kind of scientific explanation(at least via current knowledge). And then there are always new studies which overturn the evidence presented by previous studies at a constant rate. That said, in the absence of a study, anecdotal reports among RVAFers are useful, especially if backed by others' experiences.
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Redfulcrum, your experiment is very interesting. Finally know how to help my husband ;D (who is too skinny and who HATES exercise for the sake of building some more muscle).
That being said, I really do not believe it can be healthy to put on 10 lb of muscle just like that. Doesn't muscle mass increase the metabolic rate and decrease lifespan?
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DANGER, DANGER, DANGER!!!!!
I haven't been posting because I was dying from extreme rabbit starvation. DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS EXPERIMENT! PLEASE, don't. I do not want anyone to go thru what I did. If want muscle, and fast? You better just keep it old school and eat fatty meats.
The diet does work, but it's dangerous and uncontrollable. The muscles does grow and I did grow a lot. I couldn't handle the change in hormones levels, just like if I were on steroids. You'll get more testosterone and if you keep going it causes an amphetamine effect. I couldn't sleep for 4 days. I remember feeling that serotonin or dopamine rush before I went to the hospital. I almost had a stroke or heart attack from hypertension and extreme pulse rate. It was just like a meth high.
I'll write about it later. I am still recovering from the damages. I have internal bleeding and thrush everwhere. I'll let you guy's know about it more after I recover. I am sorry I started this thread. Thanks for the warnings. I hope nobody else was crazy enough to attempt this.
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I upped my protein intake just like the raw meat using body builders.
Striving to get at least 125 grams of protein a day to match my 125 lbs.
1 kg a day. Can't eat more than that.
On my 2nd day now with me in touch with my coach.
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DANGER, DANGER, DANGER!!!!!
I haven't been posting because I was dying from extreme rabbit starvation. DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS EXPERIMENT! PLEASE, don't. I do not want anyone to go thru what I did. If want muscle, and fast? You better just keep it old school and eat fatty meats.
The diet does work, but it's dangerous and uncontrollable. The muscles does grow and I did grow a lot. I couldn't handle the change in hormones levels, just like if I were on steroids. You'll get more testosterone and if you keep going it causes an amphetamine effect. I couldn't sleep for 4 days. I remember feeling that serotonin or dopamine rush before I went to the hospital. I almost had a stroke or heart attack from hypertension and extreme pulse rate. It was just like a meth high.
I'll write about it later. I am still recovering from the damages. I have internal bleeding and thrush everwhere. I'll let you guy's know about it more after I recover. I am sorry I started this thread. Thanks for the warnings. I hope nobody else was crazy enough to attempt this.
Is this for real or is there where you snicker and say : suckers!!! :
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He's been quashed by the feds... they didn't want the secret getting out as it could be disastrous to civilisation =)
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THIS IS FOR REAL! I almost had a heart attack. Those dumb ass doctors thought I was meth. I told them, but they're all clueless about it. Whatever, that's what hospitals are for, to not listen to the patient. Anyways, I just detoxed by time and water. Took me about 3 days to clear all the excess protein. I finally slept last night. I need to repopulate my digestive system. Anybody got any ideas?
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eat more fat and more carbs?
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I've been on a fat diet. Diarrhea is insane. Blood eveywhere. It was better this morning though. I've been eating beef stock, chicken stock, sauerkraut and drinking kombucha. I hope my gut health returns to normal. I know I'm immune deficient right now with all this thrush in my mouth. I'm afraid to go out to places at the moment.
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That much internal bleeding? Maybe there are herbs or meds that stop internal bleeding.
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I had blood in it yesterday. I think it's normal. When there's too much amino acids in the blood stream, one of the ways it ditches it is thru the gut which would explain diarrhea. Too much protein opened up a whole new world to me. I have more theories to talk about after going thru this. My mother had to use a coin and tiger balm to create bruising all over my body. I never understood why older people do this all the time in my culture. Now I know. Hyperaminoacidemia causes a whole lot of our diseases of civilization, not just from carbs. Sorry If I was getting aggressive in my posts lately, it's all testosterone.
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Where is "your culture"?
BTW I added you as a friend on facebook.
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Cambodian
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That much internal bleeding? Maybe there are herbs or meds that stop internal bleeding.
Arnica. If you're not allergic to aloe, that too. Maybe goldenseal for a little while.
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Cayenne (chili pepper) will stop bleeding. If you are brave enough (I think you are ;) )you can put a full teaspoon of the powder in a cup of water and drink it down, and repeat if necessary. It normally works pretty fast.
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I read about that a long time ago. Cayenne is good for heart attacks also.
Gosh, Thanks everyone. How could I be so stupid just for the sake of vanity? Sometimes I feel I'm too smart for my own good.
I realized I went too far when something in my head said high testosterone and lower immunity. Maybe that was myself, but I think it was some kind of divine intervention.
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I have internal bleeding and thrush everwhere. I'll let you guy's know about it more after I recover.
Glad that you are recovering.
Thrush IIRC is candida, and the cure that worked for me was the tallow in my pemmican. Raw beef fat should work as well if you are one of those who can tolerate it - it gives me the shits.
Roast pork is said to heal the gut.
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Roast pork is said to heal the gut.
I'm not that totally familiar with all ways of cooking meat. How do you roast your pork?
How is it said that it heals the gut? Is it the proline and glycine from boiling the bone a long time?
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I totally agree. I've been downing VCO, Ghee, Stock, pork skin. Just about all fat. I feel and look better. My joints don't hurt overnight. The healing powers of fat are amazing.
Rabbit starvation has the same symptoms of meth abuse. I've been reading up on meth sites to know what to expect with this comedown. The body craves carbohydrates because of the stimulating effect of hyperaminoacidemia. Everytime I ate a snicker's my heart rate decreased and I felt better. Same thing happens when I eat fat. I think insulin levels are through the roof and any carbohydrate will be converted to fat imediately upon digestion. The only problem with carbs is it's not a good time to eat them because of the dry mouth. Meth users love candy and starch. I'm fully aware of the problem, so I just eat fat. I don't want my teeth rotting and besides, why feed the yeast and cause a whole list of new problems.
One thing I learn going through all this is the body knows what to do. You just have to listen to it. I was detoxing in every form. Even the act of high blood pressure and heart rate is a form of detox. It needs high blood pressure and rate to release more blood into the digestive tract to remove the excess amino acids. In a sense, too much amino acids is too much blood. The dry mouth is alerting you to drink up to flush your body. Every time I laid down and closed my eyes it felt like I took a shot of espresso. I needed to stay up to burn off the excess amino acids. On and on, the body knows.
Those stupid doctors gave me a beta blocker, atenolol, because they thought I had an anxiety attack. All that did was slow my body from detoxing. I still think the snickers worked better. That idiot doctor said it was all psychosomatic. He had never heard of protein poisoning. I told him about it, but he's a doctor, he KNOWS what he's doing.
Good thing I don't believe in allopathic medicine. Water and bruising worked wonders. It made me want to learn more chinese medicine after going thru this. Eastern medicine is awesome, it encourages the body to heal instead of impeding it.
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Hope you get better buddy.
So you were actually just stuffing your self with meat every second of the day + with beer?
I did up my protein intake but not through the roof like you did and I must say I feel better. My brainfog seems to be vanishing atleast.
I have a question though. If I were to eat nothing but fish, would I get rabbit starvation? I'm curious because vilhjalmur stefansson just ate fish for long periods of time.
Thanks
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I have a question though. If I were to eat nothing but fish, would I get rabbit starvation? I'm curious because vilhjalmur stefansson just ate fish for long periods of time.
Thanks
There are classes of fish with oily livers and non-oily flesh (e.g. cod), and there are others that have oily flesh and non-oily livers (e,g. salmon). I think it might depend on that. Have you tried it to any extent, eating raw fish as the greater majority or your whole diet?
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Those stupid doctors gave me a beta blocker, atenolol, because they thought I had an anxiety attack. All that did was slow my body from detoxing. I still think the snickers worked better. That idiot doctor said it was all psychosomatic. He had never heard of protein poisoning. I told him about it, but he's a doctor, he KNOWS what he's doing.
Good thing I don't believe in allopathic medicine. Water and bruising worked wonders. It made me want to learn more chinese medicine after going thru this. Eastern medicine is awesome, it encourages the body to heal instead of impeding it.
redfulcrum, mass wise (roughly), where would protein and fat sit
with the diet.
i.e. 2 pounds of protein for every 1 pound of fat
Doctors cant live with em. Cant live without em. I do praise western medicines ability
to save someone from an emergency situation, though. You wont find antibiotics in the wild,
keep up with the fat intake, the broths are excellent for restoring your digestive health.
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you need a lot of fat. I haven't got it down to a science yet. I would think the 1:1 ratio is right in weight. Anything higher will cause an anabolic effect. I'm still coming down. I have to eat fat to slow down my heart rate. I just hope I didn't get my endocrine system stuck in a energy using state. I guess the more fat I eat, the more balance my metabolic rate will become.
Fat slows down metabolsim
carbs slows down metabolism
alcohol slows down metabolism
Protein INCREASES metabolism. I would never think that iti could do this.
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redfulcrum, mass wise (roughly), where would protein and fat sit
with the diet.
i.e. 2 pounds of protein for every 1 pound of fat
To attain the ~75% calories by fat that most people do well on you should be eating in close to a 3:1 ratio of lean to fat. It's not an exact science and changes even day to day but it gets you into the ballpark range to fine tune as your body tells you.
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I agree, what's the best tasting? Nature designed our tongue a certain way. That correct ratio should give the perfect tasting meat.
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I totally agree. I've been downing VCO, Ghee, Stock, pork skin. Just about all fat. I feel and look better. My joints don't hurt overnight. The healing powers of fat are amazing.
Rabbit starvation has the same symptoms of meth abuse. I've been reading up on meth sites to know what to expect with this comedown. The body craves carbohydrates because of the stimulating effect of hyperaminoacidemia. Everytime I ate a snicker's my heart rate decreased and I felt better. Same thing happens when I eat fat. I think insulin levels are through the roof and any carbohydrate will be converted to fat imediately upon digestion. The only problem with carbs is it's not a good time to eat them because of the dry mouth. Meth users love candy and starch. I'm fully aware of the problem, so I just eat fat. I don't want my teeth rotting and besides, why feed the yeast and cause a whole list of new problems.
One thing I learn going through all this is the body knows what to do. You just have to listen to it. I was detoxing in every form. Even the act of high blood pressure and heart rate is a form of detox. It needs high blood pressure and rate to release more blood into the digestive tract to remove the excess amino acids. In a sense, too much amino acids is too much blood. The dry mouth is alerting you to drink up to flush your body. Every time I laid down and closed my eyes it felt like I took a shot of espresso. I needed to stay up to burn off the excess amino acids. On and on, the body knows.
Those stupid doctors gave me a beta blocker, atenolol, because they thought I had an anxiety attack. All that did was slow my body from detoxing. I still think the snickers worked better. That idiot doctor said it was all psychosomatic. He had never heard of protein poisoning. I told him about it, but he's a doctor, he KNOWS what he's doing.
Good thing I don't believe in allopathic medicine. Water and bruising worked wonders. It made me want to learn more chinese medicine after going thru this. Eastern medicine is awesome, it encourages the body to heal instead of impeding it.
When I eat lots of lean meat without fat, I fell in hypoglycaemia.
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I agree, what's the best tasting? Nature designed our tongue a certain way. That correct ratio should give the perfect tasting meat.
I've always gravitated towards chuck cuts personally. The meat is more flavorful, the fat is tasty and well distributed, and the cut is so much cheaper than other cuts as it's a tougher cut (when cooked, not so much when raw ;D).
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you need a lot of fat. I haven't got it down to a science yet. I would think the 1:1 ratio is right in weight. Anything higher will cause an anabolic effect. I'm still coming down. I have to eat fat to slow down my heart rate. I just hope I didn't get my endocrine system stuck in a energy using state. I guess the more fat I eat, the more balance my metabolic rate will become.
Fat slows down metabolsim
carbs slows down metabolism
alcohol slows down metabolism
Protein INCREASES metabolism. I would never think that iti could do this.
Never would've thought protein could cause this dramatic effect in such a short amount of time!!!!!
I sure would like to experiment with a safer ZC protein-to-fat ratio and see what happens.
Its not an exact science thats for sure, different body types call for different approaches
nonetheless high protein low fat will certainly cause side effects for anyone.
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I've always gravitated towards chuck cuts personally. The meat is more flavorful, the fat is tasty and well distributed, and the cut is so much cheaper than other cuts as it's a tougher cut (when cooked, not so much when raw ;D).
Ya I agree, I've only been eating raw meat for 5 days now but I have to say that I really enjoy the taste of raw chuck steak but I absolutely despise the taste of raw ground beef. It's weird...
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Dude, they probably put this bastard 'Sodium Diacetate' and 'Potassium Lactate' in your beef mince to preserve it since it's more exposed than steak. I had stopped buying the shitty supermarket beef-mince because it has it in, so I went to the butcher and they told me they hadn't put anything in their so I bought it. I guess they didn't but someone else did because I could taste it and it's messed me up. Same discomfort/headache/tiredness and repulsion from eating it. I know it's the stuff, because I went to a supermarket butcher who minced the meat in front of me and it tasted great.
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Dude, they probably put this bastard 'Sodium Diacetate' and 'Potassium Lactate' in your beef mince to preserve it since it's more exposed than steak. I had stopped buying the shitty supermarket beef-mince because it has it in, so I went to the butcher and they told me they hadn't put anything in their so I bought it. I guess they didn't but someone else did because I could taste it and it's messed me up. Same discomfort/headache/tiredness and repulsion from eating it. I know it's the stuff, because I went to a supermarket butcher who minced the meat in front of me and it tasted great.
It could be, but I don't buy my meat from the grocery store, I get it from a butcher shop where they claim that nothing is added at all to their meat. The meat however is still grain finished (can't afford grass fed meat) and obviously not the best quality but I personally think that my hatred for raw ground beef has to do with the texture of it -\
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I'm not that totally familiar with all ways of cooking meat. How do you roast your pork?
Pyrex pan in oven at 300F for 1 hour 40 minutes. This is for back ribs.
Caution - I've done this twice in the past year, so there is probably a better way.
How is it said that it heals the gut? Is it the proline and glycine from boiling the bone a long time?
I have no idea how or why. It felt right though.
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drinking kombucha
That doesn't seem like a good idea, just my "gut" reaction. Too much acid, yeast, sugar... I used to brew but became convinced it's just not a healthy or natural food.
Kraut seems right, though:
True paleo sauerkraut can be made by immersing a cabbage in the ocean.
Please don't drink alcohol, especially now (another thing I'm glad to be rid of, and I heartily defended it)
I hope you feel better soon
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That doesn't seem like a good idea, just my "gut" reaction. Too much acid, yeast, sugar... I used to brew but became convinced it's just not a healthy or natural food.
Please don't drink alcohol, especially now (another thing I'm glad to be rid of, and I heartily defended it)
Both are a good idea IMO.
The thrush is indicative of a Candida overgrowth. The A. Albicans organism will feed quite contentedly on both the Kombucha and alcohol. I've been there with both of them.
Sticking to as much fat as you can comfortably consume at the moment and balancing with adequate lean is the best course of action now. There are plenty of herbs and oils you can use to get more aggressive with the yeast but you sound like your body's not really up for a huge die-off at the moment so the fat & meat (try to eat them raw) are your best bet.
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DANGER, DANGER, DANGER!!!!!
I haven't been posting because I was dying from extreme rabbit starvation. DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS EXPERIMENT! PLEASE, don't. ...
Sorry you had to learn the hard way and hope you get better soon.
Those stupid doctors gave me a beta blocker, atenolol, because they thought I had an anxiety attack.
Your reported symptoms do resemble an anxiety attack, but regardless, it's best not to fool around with rabbit starvation. Besides, fats from wild and pasture-fed animal and seafood sources are the healthiest macronutrient.
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Re: my weight...while it is still lower than I'd like it to be (though I'd prefer to add mostly muscle, rather than fat, as in the past), society's perceptions have also changed on what is "too thin," as explained in an article that Dr. Davis recently published, by coincidence, at:
Look like Jimmy Stewart
By William Davis, MD
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/look-like-jimmy-stewart.html
"Unfortunately, many Americans have forgotten what normal looks like. Normal is certainly not a 190-lb, 5 ft 4 in woman, nor is it a 228 lb, 5 ft 11 inch man. But Americans have put on so much weight that the prevailing view of what constitutes "normal" weight has been revised upward. Normal is closer to what we see in old movies from the 1940s and '50s with people like Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed. That's what we are supposed to look like."
So even though I'd like to bulk up further, it's mainly for looks at this point, rather than health necessity.
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Wow, what an experience. I'm glad I didn't die and I'm glad I went thru it. It taught me a lot about the human body, even though it was mine. The whole idea that proteins are excreted when eaten in excess is a myth. Turns out that amino acids build up in the blood, leaving you in a chronically high insulin state decreasing energy utilization from the stored fat. The heart tries to get enough fuel by increasing the pulse rate and pressure to get enough fat. The problem is you eventually get a heart attack or a stroke unless fat or carbs are put in the diet. I had to eat fat slowly because too much at one time will also increase the pressure and rate. Took me 4 days to clear out the excess amino acids in the bloodstream. Once amino acids are clear from the system, hunger and circadian rythym will return including your sanity.
The diet can work but can only be used short term. Everyone thought I was on steroids by the growth rate that took place. I suppose you can bulk up with carbs to counter the effect of protein. Either way, bulking is dangerous on the long term. Nature has a way to deal with gluttony.
Learned a lot about chinese medicine too. I never had hypertension before, but let me tell you, bruising the skin is awesome. The relief is instantaneous unlike taking a pill. I need to study more eastern medicine.
After this event taking place, I will never neglect my body again ever. Every organ is important. Even the most benign acts like drinking starbucks can have detrimental effects on the long term. I have no desire to drink alcohol anymore after this. My poor liver has been through so much trauma. I can't see why anyone would want a high metabolism. I hate it.
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Wow, what an experience. I'm glad I didn't die and I'm glad I went thru it. It taught me a lot about the human body, even though it was mine. The whole idea that proteins are excreted when eaten in excess is a myth. Turns out that amino acids build up in the blood, leaving you in a chronically high insulin state decreasing energy utilization from the stored fat. The heart tries to get enough fuel by increasing the pulse rate and pressure to get enough fat. The problem is you eventually get a heart attack or a stroke unless fat or carbs are put in the diet. I had to eat fat slowly because too much at one time will also increase the pressure and rate. Took me 4 days to clear out the excess amino acids in the bloodstream. Once amino acids are clear from the system, hunger and circadian rythym will return including your sanity.
The diet can work but can only be used short term. Everyone thought I was on steroids by the growth rate that took place. I suppose you can bulk up with carbs to counter the effect of protein. Either way, bulking is dangerous on the long term. Nature has a way to deal with gluttony.
Learned a lot about chinese medicine too. I never had hypertension before, but let me tell you, bruising the skin is awesome. The relief is instantaneous unlike taking a pill. I need to study more eastern medicine.
After this event taking place, I will never neglect my body again ever. Every organ is important. Even the most benign acts like drinking starbucks can have detrimental effects on the long term. I have no desire to drink alcohol anymore after this. My poor liver has been through so much trauma. I can't see why anyone would want a high metabolism. I hate it.
The cognoscenti say starbucks tastes like charcoal (this from the usenet group alt.coffee).
You pushed the limit, and learned something - I wonder if this could be comparable to those whose experience is medically described as poisoning, while long-term lesser but still excessive is profitably called by many names.
I'm thinking of excess carbohydrates, called everything from bipolar disorder to ischemic disease to obesity, Another one is mercury poisoning, no symptoms of its own at all unless it is so extreme that the body cannot store it.
I thought of low-level protein poisoning for my problem years ago, but had no way of testing for truth.
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the liver has a good memory
you should really treat it VERY kindly
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I upped my protein intake just like the raw meat using body builders.
Striving to get at least 125 grams of protein a day to match my 125 lbs.
1 kg a day. Can't eat more than that.
On my 2nd day now with me in touch with my coach.
instead of eating 1g of protein per lb of body weight, eat 1 - 1.5 grams for every pound of lean body mass. The bodybuilder you are talking to is probably very muscular which is why they said that. If you are fat with little muscle you are getting too much protein.
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I'm slim with new biceps.
How do I determine lean body mass?
This thread made me think about the quantity of meat I am eating. Maybe 1/2 kilo or 1.1 lbs of meat a day is not enough. It's a ladies diet. Eating 1 kilo a day is double of what I'm used to eating. I remember Aajonus saying we should eat 1 to 3 lbs of meat a day.
So far after 3 days the only immediate effect I have to report is testosterone. Yeah, horny.
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So far after 3 days the only immediate effect I have to report is testosterone. Yeah, horny.
Is this predominantly from a high protein diet or high fat?
great side effect, eh
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High protein.
I had to lessen the proportion of fat I'm eating so I can eat more protein. Otherwise I'd be so full.
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High protein.
I had to lessen the proportion of fat I'm eating so I can eat more protein. Otherwise I'd be so full.
Thanks for the update. Keep us posted on your 'experiment'
Be careful though, you dont want to risk the chance of rabbit starvation
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Protein will not fatten you up. I learned that first hand.
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redfulcrum,
You should probably edit your first post in this thread to include the warning (or ask a mod to do it).
If someone reads just the first posts and decides to try it, they could get in trouble -d. It did cross my mind to at least increase my lean meat intake.
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Good Idea.
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This was quite ridiculous.
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Ridiculous, maybe, but it sure got everyone's attention, and I learned that excess amino acids remain in the blood much longer than I thought.
Not that I thought of it. ;)
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Hey Redful! Good job,everything you say is true your 100% dead on. I am doing the same thing I even have video.
http://freedomforcreation.posterous.com/fw-the-sasuke-challage-getting-fit-in-under-a
You remind me of me,we even have the same pink color on ur avatars. But thats not important.
As you know NOBODY knows this simple secret to get cut and put on muscle...even most of the people here didn't know.
Your courage to take on this task through your own mindframe is admirable. We can make a ton of dough spreading the word about paleo dieting.
I am a daoist. My friend and mentor Wan qi Kim told me this simple secret on weight loss on a site called Journik.com. Its a "dojo for your mind" and explains the hardest challenges in life always turn out to have the simplest answers.
Bodybuilders take years to build there body, they intake soo many carbs. Yet if they only knew that if they ate protein with no carbs or fat that the body would use its on fat to digest it...
Even Vince Gironda didn't know this. He is said to be the greatest bodybuilder of all time. He got close though by saying "protein cannot be digested without sugar or fat so always eat protein with carbs"
Sadly he never recommended that people who already had fat could use pure protein as a method of cutting...
All of life's greatest secrets are this simple thats what Wan and Journik has taught me.
Our Ego looks for big grand things, but its yin and yang. The biggest most powerful secrets are the smallest simplest things, its just nature.
And to think the use cafffine, Ephdra stacks and workout. And the workouts are brutal and actually body damaging....
If only they knew that they don't need to workout like that. Male lions don't workout...heck they don't even hunt the females do that.
They do burn tons of energy getting food, fighting,and sex but no more than what they are passionate about.
There are so many personal trainers professional nutritionist that are getting PAID and know nothing like what we (this site) know.
We have more edcucation than PHDS,Doctors,Nutritionist. We have better than Harvard education in nutrition...
But its SOOOO simple that we dont see. Tell me how you feel about my blog.And Journik...
thanks!
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if they only knew that if they ate protein with no carbs or fat that the body would use its on fat to digest it...
Yes, and then die from rabbit starvation.
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Yes, and then die from rabbit starvation.
I've been eating very lean steaks (all fat trimmed and no marbling) for 18 days now, I set new PRs on some lifts and calisthenics and I lost 8.5 lbs, I doubt rabbit starvation happens unless you have a lower body fat, maybe 8-9% or under (I'm at 13% now), that's what stored fat is for, when food is lean. The protein and resistance exercise are to preserve lean muscle mass so you can look good naked and still smash faces if you need to, no point in being lean and weak.
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Yeah, I have the same theory.
I think that rabbit starvation will probably happen a lot faster if you don't eat any carbs either. But I think this forum is a bit crazy on fat tbh, you only need a fair amount of fat. People here make it sounds like you need to be stuffing your face with fat all the time which I think is mostly due to ignorance.
I hunt a lot of wild game, and believe me, fat isn't as abundant as you think. Most of these animals are very very lean.
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Yeah, I have the same theory.
I think that rabbit starvation will probably happen a lot faster if you don't eat any carbs either. But I think this forum is a bit crazy on fat tbh, you only need a fair amount of fat. People here make it sounds like you need to be stuffing your face with fat all the time which I think is mostly due to ignorance.
I hunt a lot of wild game, and believe me, fat isn't as abundant as you think. Most of these animals are very very lean.
I entirely agree. I've been saying much the same thing for years, that rabbit-starvation requires much lower levels of fat-consumption than people think and that palaeo tribes survived very well in winters(on virtually no carbs) despite eating only raw wild game which was much leaner/less fatty than modern animals.
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Yeah, I have the same theory.
I think that rabbit starvation will probably happen a lot faster if you don't eat any carbs either.
Does anyone know the minimal amount of carbs or fats to eat to avoid rabbit starvation, and by what exact mechanism insufficient carbs and fats causes it? The hypotheses at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation) don’t seem that convincing.
But I think this forum is a bit crazy on fat tbh, you only need a fair amount of fat. People here make it sounds like you need to be stuffing your face with fat all the time which I think is mostly due to ignorance.
Please try to refrain from making negative personal characterizations about other posters, especially when the comments are based on assumptions about them rather than their actual behavior here. I find that discussion is optimized when we report our own experiences and ask others to share theirs rather than try to apply our individual experience to everyone, and when we ask questions of each other rather than make assumptions. I'll treat your characterization as if it had been a question:
Question: "Do you eat lots of fat because you are unaware of the leanness of wild muscle meats?"
Answer: No, I was well aware of that. The main reason I eat lots of fat is because I do best when I do.
I hunt a lot of wild game, and believe me, fat isn't as abundant as you think. Most of these animals are very very lean.
The intramuscular tissue of wild and grass-finished animals is very lean, yes, but are you aware that the enormous megafauna that were preferentially hunted by Stone Agers had large fat depots that evidence indicates were valued more than the lean muscle meat, and that hunter gatherers of today still prefer fat to lean? Here are some sources:
Adults only. Reindeer hunting at the Middle Palaeolithic site Salzgitter Lebenstedt, Northern Germany
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1557221
Both Homo sapiens neanderthalensis of the Middle Pleistocene and Homo sapiens sapiens of the Upper Paleolithic preferentially hunted reindeer when they were at their fattest (the fall) and preferentially selected their fattiest parts (such as the best marrow bones).
Cultural and Environmental Implications of Hippopotamus Bone Remains in Archaeological Contexts in the Levant
by LK Horwitz - 1990
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1357310
"one hippopotamus can yield some 90 kg of fat"
Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson reported that Inuits and other Native Americans also preferentially hunted the fattiest animals and preferentially ate the backslab and perinephric fat of land mammals and the blubber from sea mammals like seal and walrus. (Stefansson, The Fat of the Land, 1956)
Another Arctic explorer and anthropologist, Hugh Brody, also reported that Inuits and Dene preferentially ate fat. (Hugh Brody, Living Arctic, 1987)
Other Arctic explorers have reported the importance of eating plentiful fat in very cold climates: "One effect of the cold was to give a most ravenous appetite for fat. Many a time have we eaten great lumps of lard grease - rancid tallow, used for making candles - without bread or anything to modify it." (Viscount Milton and Walter Butler Cheadle, The North-West Passage by Land: Being the narrative of an expedition from the Atlantic to the Pacific, undertaken with the view of exploring a route across the continent to British Columbia through British territory, by one of the northern passes in the Rocky Mountains, 1865)
Do you know what the avg percentage fat intake by calories of traditional Arctic peoples like the Inuit was? Are you familiar with the research of Wortman, Phinney and Westman on high-fat diets?
... that rabbit-starvation requires much lower levels of fat-consumption than people think ...
Did you mean to write "that avoiding rabbit-starvation requires..."?
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Please try to refrain from making negative personal characterizations about other posters, especially when the comments are based on assumptions about them rather than their actual behavior here. I find that discussion is optimized when we report our own experiences and ask others to share theirs rather than try to apply our individual experience to everyone, and when we ask questions of each other rather than make assumptions. I'll treat your characterization as if it had been a question:
Question: "Do you eat lots of fat because you are unaware of the leanness of wild muscle meats?"
Answer: No, I was well aware of that. The main reason I eat lots of fat is because I do best when I do.
Negative personal characterizations? Not sure where I see that.
But anywho, your whole post is boring and unpersonal.. Not gonna bother replying but I can tell you that I disagree whole heartedly.
I've been in the wild, I've survived in the wild and fat is not abundant. Especially if there was a group hunt. And also I do badly when I eat alot of fat daily. I get fatter, lower energy, brain fog etc.
But you're welcome to disagree, just don't say ridicoulus things like "Negative personal characterizations". That was just not true, and quite rude.
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I've been in the wild, I've survived in the wild and fat is not abundant.
well, it depends what you call 'wild'.
if you are hunting white tail deer or rabbits, then yes, they are very lean.
but if you hunt seals, those are probably 50% fat by weight. whales are pretty fatty too.
bears are very fat coming into winter months. wild bizon has loads of fat. caribou is not lean.
any land game coming into spring will be much leaner than coming into winter.
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well, it depends what you call 'wild'.
if you are hunting white tail deer or rabbits, then yes, they are very lean.
but if you hunt seals, those are probably 50% fat by weight. whales are pretty fatty too.
bears are very fat coming into winter months. wild bizon has loads of fat. caribou is not lean.
any land game coming into spring will be much leaner than coming into winter.
I've hunted boar, seal, reindeer, all types of bird, wild yaks..
all of them very lean, except for seal perhaps. And I try to avoid seal because it taste absoloutely horrid and they are most often then not infected with lots of parasites.. (whether thats a good thing or bad, still undecided on that)
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I've hunted boar, seal, reindeer, all types of bird, wild yaks..
if you get a chance, next time you hunt, please take a picture after you butcher the kill, if you can of course.
there is a lot of discussion on 'fatness' of different animals and if you have pictures that would be great.
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Will do
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Well, I think ForTheHunt was just making what is known as "fair comment" and not directly targetted at a specific individual, just an observation based on his own experience re hunting wild game - whether it's right or wrong isn't the point.
As for fat in palaeo times, I should add that palaeodiet researchers such as Loren Cordain state that it was precisely because of the scarcity of fat in palaeo times that palaeo hunter-gatherers went out of their way to get hold of fat as much as possible. In pre-agricultural times it was pretty difficult for wild animals to get the kind of fat-layers present in grainfed animals, there were seasonal fluctuations in amounts of fat(winter and early spring(and famine situations) rather reducing sources for obvious reasons) and palaeo humans ,worldwide, were known to hunt a wide variety of wild game, small or large(indeed there was even 1 study which claimed that the neanderthals died out because they, unlike palaeo humans, were too reliant on large wild game such as mammoths; study now since debunked as Neanderthals are now known to have eaten a wider variety of foods).
The arctic reference is a problem as the Eskimoes only came into the arctic some thousands of years ago, so not directly applicable to palaeo humans in general. And arctic species very high in fat, such as seals, weren't usually a staple in tropical climes.
re my own experience:- I used to go in heavily for raw animal fat( lots of raw marrow with each dish of lean meat) because I was worried re rabbit-starvation issues but I seem to have gone overboard. When I cut back down on it heavily I was still fine. I will concede that I did get some issues which might well be attributed to rabbit-starvation of sorts in 1 case(once or twice I did weeks-long experiments on a 100% all-raw-seafood diet and felt rather weak as a result, afterwards. Made me seriously doubt the aquatic ape theory.
Since I went in for very high fat in my failed RZC trials, I might try it again, though this time with a lower fat-content. Besides, I noticed like Lex did later, that eating high amounts of fat made me fatter/overweight, despite being RZC, so am not convinced that that was good(though I seem to recall that you have problems with being too underweight so extra mass would be a good thing for you, I presume).
There are no studies on rabbit-starvation that I know of, only the anecdotal reports that anything of rabbit-size or smaller is not ideal as a primary staple of a (R)ZC diet, due to not sufficient fats being available(though horsemeat was also cited in 1 account which makes no sense). Anyway, I view my raw wild hare carcasses as not being of ideal size, but since I also eat raw grassfed beef and am not on RZC, I'm not worried.
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Rabbit starvation, from what I have read, is about a relation of protein to either fat or carbs as a total percentage of calories. Thus one can avoid rabbit starvation by eating either fat or carbs with their protein. Those eating high protein diets and little or no fat, are you eating carbs along with your wild lean meats?
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Yeah, I have the same theory.
I think that rabbit starvation will probably happen a lot faster if you don't eat any carbs either. But I think this forum is a bit crazy on fat tbh, you only need a fair amount of fat. People here make it sounds like you need to be stuffing your face with fat all the time which I think is mostly due to ignorance.
I hunt a lot of wild game, and believe me, fat isn't as abundant as you think. Most of these animals are very very lean.
In my eyes you are right. I tried eating more fat because I felt it was needed, started to get fevers and indigestion. I estimate I eat about a handful of animal fat a day and that is more than enough for me. I'm weighing in at 165lbs. Fat is not needed in surplus
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Negative personal characterizations? Not sure where I see that.
But anywho, your whole post is boring and unpersonal.. Not gonna bother replying but I can tell you that I disagree whole heartedly.
Forthehunt, you can characterize your post and mine any way you wish, but if you could phrase things more like this from your more recent post…
I've been in the wild, I've survived in the wild and fat is not abundant. Especially if there was a group hunt. And also I do badly when I eat alot of fat daily. I get fatter, lower energy, brain fog etc. ...
and less like this from the post that I brought to your attention…
... But I think this forum is a bit crazy on fat tbh, you only need a fair amount of fat. People here make it sounds like you need to be stuffing your face with fat all the time which I think is mostly due to ignorance. ...
…that would be helpful, thanks. I appreciate the improvement you made already. Do you see the difference between the two posts? I added emphasis to try to help point out what I was referring to. Notice the difference between the "this forum", "People here" and "you's" in the original post, vs. the "I's" in your newer post. To put it very simply, I'd like to encourage people in this forum to use "I's" more than "you's" and to share your own experience and ask questions rather than talk about "you" this or that.
Anything more like your "you's" post will be moved to the general forum where you can thrash it out all you want. This is the ZC/Carnivorous forum for proponents of ZC and carnivory and those trying those approaches or asking questions about them. I hope you understand that as moderator of this ZC forum that it's my job to maintain the standards here just like other moderators do in the other forums. Disagreeing with people is fine and sharing experience that does not support ZC is fine, but criticizing ZC or ZCers in general is not the purpose of this forum, regardless of whether it's justified or not. We have the general forum and hot topics for that sort of debate (and I actually would encourage folks to stick to evidence and experience, minimize criticism and avoid ad hominem even in those forums).
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Well, I think ForTheHunt was just making what is known as "fair comment"...
Tyler, did you not just recently move a post (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/the-most-overrated-book-ever-written/msg24609/#msg24609) that was linked to a review that was critical of WAP dieters out of the WAP forum to the general forum and didn't even contain any negative text in the actual WAP forum post (so that people could just avoid clicking on the link if they didn't want to see the critical review)? If you just replace “Weston-Price” with "ZC" you get the answer to why I will move future criticisms of ZCers from here to the general forum: “I'm somewhat uncomfortable with threads attacking ZC or ZC proponents in the ZC forum. This forum is meant for people who are fans of ZC.” I didn’t even move the post and I don’t think my request was burdensome.
I wish to encourage rational discussions here and discourage ad hominem and broad-brush criticisms—especially unsupported negative comments about ZC and ZCers in general within this forum dedicated to ZC. Is that too much to ask? The latter just distracts from the real purposes of this forum. Another easy way to avoid the problem is to just put a question mark at the end of your sentences. For example, instead of saying "you" this or that, ask "Do you...?"
Peace and good health,
PaleoPhil
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Anything more like your "you's" post will be moved to the general forum where you can thrash it out all you want. This is the ZC/Carnivorous forum for proponents of ZC and carnivory and those trying those approaches or asking questions about them. I hope you understand that as moderator of this ZC forum that it's my job to maintain the standards here just like other moderators do in the other forums. Disagreeing with people is fine and sharing experience that does not support ZC is fine, but criticizing ZC or ZCers in general is not the purpose of this forum, regardless of whether it's justified or not. We have the general forum and hot topics for that sort of debate (and I actually would encourage folks to stick to evidence and experience, minimize criticism and avoid ad hominem even in those forums).
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Tyler, did you not just recently move a post (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/the-most-overrated-book-ever-written/msg24609/#msg24609) that was linked to a review that was critical of WAP dieters out of the WAP forum to the general forum and didn't even contain any negative text in the actual WAP forum post (so that people could just avoid clicking on the link if they didn't want to see the critical review)? If you just replace “Weston-Price” with "ZC" you get the answer to why I will move future criticisms of ZCers from here to the general forum: “I'm somewhat uncomfortable with threads attacking ZC or ZC proponents in the ZC forum. This forum is meant for people who are fans of ZC.” I didn’t even move the post and I don’t think my request was burdensome.
Well, the above may well have been one of my biggest and most foolish mistakes on this website(I'll change the topic back to the wp forum, I'd forgotten about it). You see, at the time, I'd wanted to not frighten away any new members who were primal dieters/WAPFers from those 2 forums, and allowing too many negative comments against AV or WP on those 2 forums seemed a bad notion, so I thought I'd crack down and only allow AV-/WP-positive posts in those forums. On the other hand, as RawKyle correctly pointed out, stifling debate isn't a good idea in the long run either, and I ultimately came round to his way of thinking. Whatever some of us RPDers think of Aajonus or Weston-Price or raw zero carb diets, generally speaking, few, if any, on this forum view them as being absolutely 100% right or 100% wrong in all respects, so it would be wrong to only allow positive threads in the relevant forums and just move negative topics elsewhere. It would inevitably lead to forums in which everyone was too careful not to say anything contrary to the particular forum ethos/subject and really stifle genuine debate, making people unwilling to post - plus hot topics or general discussions forums would unfortunately get most of the posts, as a result. And let's face it, a post criticising AV or the Primal Diet is more relevant in a way (and more searchable for others) if placed in the Primal Diet forum than if it was just placed vaguely in the general discussions forum. Same applies to threads with posts criticising raw zero carb etc. Plus, I and some others have, routinely, strongly criticised RZC in the past for various reasons, yet Lex and other RZCers haven't exactly been discouraged/driven away from following their RZC diets, as a result of such lively debate - if anything, they are more fervent than ever.
While anti-rawpalaeo threads such as advocating cooked foods or whatever, should , of course, be placed in the Hot Topics forum, threads/posts such as FTH's, which are merely critising 1 of many lesser viewpoints held by many rawpalaeos(not just RZCers) are just fair comment. And he wasn't making a wholly unsupported statement, he was claiming this based on his own personal experience re wild animal carcasses.
*1 minor issue:- lots of times I'll click on a link in a post on rawpaleoforum and the rawpaleoforum changes to another page forcing me to open a new google page to get rawpaleoforum back in view, whereas other links I clicked on in the past just created a new webpage. I've noticed this happening every time with your posts but not always others. Maybe there's some technical thing I have no idea of, which could fix this issue?
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Tyler, can't you right click and select 'open in new tab', or click the middle mouse button on the link?
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Tyler, can't you right click and select 'open in new tab', or click the middle mouse button on the link?
The first suggestion worked fine, thanks, though not the 2nd.
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...On the other hand, as RawKyle correctly pointed out, stifling debate isn't a good idea in the long run either, and I ultimately came round to his way of thinking.
Thanks for clarifying the forum standards, Tyler. I agree with RawKyle that stifling debate (that aren't flame wars and maintain the spirit of forum standards) isn't a good idea. I don't think you were stifling debate very much just by moving a thread, but I would rather not move threads and posts just because they are critical of their forums, so I'm glad you changed your mind on that.
I'd rather try to use persuasion, at least initially, to encourage folks to be civil and focus more on characterizing their own experience than that of others who they don't have all the facts about. That's why I made a request instead of moving the post I responded to. I'll stick with using persuasion unless things start escalating.
threads/posts such as FTH's, which are merely critising 1 of many lesser viewpoints held by many rawpalaeos(not just RZCers) are just fair comment.
If that's all it was, I would have had zero problem with it. After all, it was only the second post I've ever even commented on from a moderator standpoint, so I have obviously tolerated past criticisms of viewpoints. I welcome them, I just request that people not assume that their individual experience applies to everyone (which another forum that I'm a member of completely forbids and the quality of their debates tends to be quite high as a result). That seems to be where a lot of discussions here at RPF have devolved into unconstructive tit-for-tat flames in the past and I'd like to avoid that in the ZC forum if I can. I also encourage folks not to make broad-brush negative statements about the motivations and reasons of people who follow a different diet for you--at least not without asking them first. If they respond with an ignorant reason, then by all means call it an ignorant reason, but please don't assume that all or most ZCers, Omnivores, WAPFers, AVers, high-fatters, low-fatters, etc. are following their WOE because of ignorance or other negative reasons. Can't we disagree without acting disagreeable? Is it really too onerous a request?
And he wasn't making a wholly unsupported statement, he was claiming this based on his own personal experience re wild animal carcasses.
Again, if that were the case I would have had zero problem with it. What I requested he avoid is this sort of thing...
... But I think this forum is a bit crazy on fat tbh, you only need a fair amount of fat. People here make it sounds like you need to be stuffing your face with fat all the time which I think is mostly due to ignorance. ...
whereas I welcome and applaud this wonderful bit:
I've been in the wild, I've survived in the wild and fat is not abundant. Especially if there was a group hunt. And also I do badly when I eat alot of fat daily. I get fatter, lower energy, brain fog etc. ...
Do you see the difference, Tyler?
[Note: If you want to move this moderating discussion to private messaging, Tyler, feel free, but I think that open discussion may be good too, because I'm new at moderating and other folks may have some good ideas to add and I'm interested in other people's constructive input.]
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I just read this whole thread and I'm a bit confused.
So redfulcrum is saying rabbit starvation is really "amino acidosis" which is an excess of amino acids in the blood stream?
So how does raw fat fix that? Does the fat store or remove them in some way?
And why does hitting yourself with a coin fix it?
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No, the fat will not help if you eat such an absurd amount of protein. The liver can only process 400g of protein a day. More than this and you will be in trouble.
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^ 400g of protein a day? do you mean on average?
I believe that it can be trained to handle more.
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No, the fat will not help if you eat such an absurd amount of protein. The liver can only process 400g of protein a day. More than this and you will be in trouble.
So you think what happened to redfulcrum wasn't rabbit starvation but he just ate more meat than his body could handle?
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MM, yea I'm sure there is a range of protein we can all handle based on type and age and amount of lean body mass. The 400g figure is something I've seen thrown around a few times and could possibly be adjusted upwards if you "train" your liver to handle more, though this would be extremely dumb and have no purpose.
Rabbit starvation to me just means not getting enough calories. If you don't get enough calories you are going to starve. You can probably survive decently long on just a protein only diet provided you get enough calories. The protein will convert to glucose and fat but this takes lots of energy for the body and produces lots of toxic nitrogen waste. People on actual starvation studies or very low calorie diets report that hunger usually declines rapidly after the first few days. You might actually be hungrier on a 1600 calorie a day all protein diet vs a 400 calorie a day all protein diet, since you will be getting so much more glucose from the protein which could trigger hunger. But, of course, you will live longer on the higher calorie diet. So, the percentage of calories that come from protein are not as important as the number of calories.
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Is this 400 gram figure coming from people on a normal cooked food diet or field tested rpd on people like rfulc? I think with the quality of raw food hes most likely eating it wouldnt really matter I mean he gained 10 pounds in less than a week thats beastly and his body is putting it to good use any more updates on his progress? 50 more pounds?
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Rabbit starvation to me just means not getting enough calories.
redfulcrum got enough calories with his extreme test.
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Rabbit starvation is a combination of problems. It is not just not getting enough calories. I think I figured it out most of it though.
One of the major problems with eating lean meat is taking in too much zinc. Too much zinc will throw your thyroid off, putting you into hyperthyroidism. That's why people end up having heart problems. I had crazy heart problems and couldn't sleep. I should've known better, I was heating up and not sleeping as much before I broke down.
That was just one of the problems. I also had issues with edema, indicating something was wrong with my fluids in/outside my cells. I had increased intracranial pressure for the first month after getting sick. It's been two months after and I'm feeling much better, but I still have a long ways to go to repair my body. I know I damaged my cardiovascular system somewhat. My kidneys failed and I had to take tons of vitamin D to get them working again. Bones were hurting more, which I think is osteomalacia. I think that had to do with my kidneys and the unregulated levels of parathyroid hormones from insufficient vitamin D causing the release of calcium.
The point is rabbit starvation is not just hunger from not getting enough calories. It is a metabolic syndrome caused by malnutrition. Eating a monodiet of anything will cause a toxicity of whatever composition you're eating. Any vitamin or mineral can become a toxin if you have too much of it. Any lack of will cause a deficiency. That's all I can come up with. Good thing I know the truth of the body being able to heal from damage by good nutrition, otherwise I would've killed myself long ago. This is not something you want to go thru folks. I can't believe I went thru this twice.
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UPDATE:
I had a workout yesterday, still lifting the same heavy weights, although my energy just seems barely there, strength and speed have not been affected.
Still going with 3lbs of round steak, "surgically trimmed to the leanest", Lost 2 more lbs, morning body temp has dropped to 35.6C or 96F, tired in the morning until I "heat up" then I'm good to go. I suspect this is my body lowering my thyroid so now, I burn less calories when I can, less calories through heat, less calories through slower processing of food, although my temp shoots to 37C or 98.6F after eating 3lbs at once.
This is how your body tries to slow down weight loss for survival and when I eat enough protein like now it spares the muscle (google PSMF or Protein Sparring Modified Fast), performance but lowers Fat and to some extent energy, QUICK!
To the poster above, if excess zinc is an issue, find a girl with a nice ass and face or DIY 3-5 times a day, should keep zinc levels evened out.
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Yea, you think it's funny. Just wait til you start developing hyperthyroidism. It ain't fun sitting around with a pulse rate of 100 and a pulse pressure of 70. Good luck eating lean, I warned you.
BTW, that poster above is me, the one who started this whole thread.
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Yea, you think it's funny. Just wait til you start developing hyperthyroidism. It ain't fun sitting around with a pulse rate of 100 and a pulse pressure of 70. Good luck eating lean, I warned you.
BTW, that poster above is me, the one who started this whole thread.
I wasn't kidding about what I wrote in the last sentence of my last post, I dunno why you think I think it's funny.
I'd be VERY surprised if I developed hyperthyrodism,I am eating a hypocaloric diet, I'm eating very little fat and zero carbs, hell my morning temperature is LOW, no indication that it'll be Hyper anytime soon. You on the hand, were eating carbs? (which DO raise temperature and T3 I believe) and you were eating a hypercaloric diet too right? Both which increase body temp and possibly hyperthyrodism, especially at very large amounts.
You're still saying that at my 3lbs of lean meat a day I will develop hyperthyrodism ? I've already been eating like this for 20+ days, how long till I develop "Hyperthyrodism" and high pulse rate (mine is (49-60) now so high resting would be 70-90?
Around the time you predict I'll come down with the horrifying sickness, I'll take my temp, blood pressure & pulse rate, blood sugar levels, which will all contradict your "theory".
There's a huge difference between a PSMF and hyper caloric monster intake of protein+carbs only, If I was wrong and you didn't include carbs, then I can re-run your experiments and eat as much as I can of lean meat, but when I'm finished with cutting this extra bit of fat.
Anyone else interested in re-running his experiment at the requirements he sets to prove or disprove his "experience" ?
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+1
Do you find though, Savage, that without fat although you still need water it seems to pass through you 'too fast', that you get dry lips and your muscles ache?
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+1
Do you find though, Savage, that without fat although you still need water it seems to pass through you 'too fast', that you get dry lips and your muscles ache?
Now I usually wake up, workout 1 hour after, drink 1 liter during workout, eat 1-2 hours after workout and drink water 1 hour after that for another 7 hours total, usually my daily total is 3-4 liters.
Water passes through like it did when I was eating fattier meat, no difference in anything, although I'm not 100% sure what you were asking about. No dry lips and muscle soreness is normal from lifting heavy weights, not more or less than on fattier meat.
The only difference than when eating fatty meat so far, that I have noticed:
-Decreased morning and average daily temperature
-Increased feeling of cold
-Decrease motivation for spontaneous movement.
-No strength differences noticed
-Decreased readings on blood sugar, blood pressure/pulse rate.
-Feeling lighter, faster, but I wouldn't mind napping more, the body tries to decrease activity and limit energy expenditure
-Increased taste for fat maybe every other day but only after the first bite when eating, when I'm done or before eating, I notice no more hunger than normal.
-I also feel more relaxed, in a better mood, but I'm also less tolerant if someone steps on my foot.
It's a joke all the horror warning we get from the ZC (cooked+raw) people about low fat meat and rabbit starvation, I thought I would be out of control by now, terrorizing fat people down the street, running after them, trying to get some of the rich, creamy goodness mmmm :D
They might be right if you're super lean, but as long as you aren't super lean, I see no problems with this, if you naturally or through diet and exercise look like a figure or fitness competitor on posing day, then you need to eat fat because your body needs fat, yours or from food, but if you don't look like that, then you'll just use your own fat.
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I need to eat enough fat to keep warm, especially my feet, because my house is cold =/
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Now I usually wake up, workout 1 hour after, drink 1 liter during workout, eat 1-2 hours after workout and drink water 1 hour after that for another 7 hours total, usually my daily total is 3-4 liters.
Water passes through like it did when I was eating fattier meat, no difference in anything, although I'm not 100% sure what you were asking about. No dry lips and muscle soreness is normal from lifting heavy weights, not more or less than on fattier meat.
The only difference than when eating fatty meat so far, that I have noticed:
-Decreased morning and average daily temperature
-Increased feeling of cold
-Decrease motivation for spontaneous movement.
-No strength differences noticed
-Decreased readings on blood sugar, blood pressure/pulse rate.
-Feeling lighter, faster, but I wouldn't mind napping more, the body tries to decrease activity and limit energy expenditure
-Increased taste for fat maybe every other day but only after the first bite when eating, when I'm done or before eating, I notice no more hunger than normal.
-I also feel more relaxed, in a better mood, but I'm also less tolerant if someone steps on my foot.
It's a joke all the horror warning we get from the ZC (cooked+raw) people about low fat meat and rabbit starvation, I thought I would be out of control by now, terrorizing fat people down the street, running after them, trying to get some of the rich, creamy goodness mmmm :D
They might be right if you're super lean, but as long as you aren't super lean, I see no problems with this, if you naturally or through diet and exercise look like a figure or fitness competitor on posing day, then you need to eat fat because your body needs fat, yours or from food, but if you don't look like that, then you'll just use your own fat.
So you're doing this to lose bodyfat?
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So you're doing this to lose bodyfat?
Solely for that purpose, but I also noticed I feel better without eating fat like I did.
When I'm done with losing bodyfat, I'll eat some more fat to stop anymore weight loss, but not as much as I used to eat before.
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You are getting about 300g of protein a day not anywhere near the 1000g that Red supposedly got. Most of this protein is converted to glucose which is then converted to fat. You could actually lower protein down quite a bit to burn even more body fat. Since your protein intake isn't extravagent its going to take much longer than 3 weeks to show any symptoms that constant nitrogen waste will produce. In fact, you may never show any symptoms with this protein intake. Some body builders might get this much for decades and be fine.
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it's not about fat. It's about eating "lean meat". The primitives knew they could not survive on lean alone. Go look up the content of a steak on nutritiondata.com. I guarantee it doesn't have all of the vitamins and minerals. You go on a diet of lean muscle meats, you will create an imbalance in your body. Why do you think it's so important to eat liver? That's where the copper and vitamin A is. Keep eating this way and you'll be as nutty as the vegans. No carnivore eats muscle first. First they eat the organs, fat, and muscle and bones last. You think your average bodybuilder knows how to grow? I bet most of these guys wouldn't grow if you take their supplements away. If your diet was so great you wouldn't need to take a multi. You will not keep growing on lean meat, eventually you'll deplete all your vitamins and minerals, then you'll start dying.
300g of protein is pretty normal and average. That's about 2lbs. of steak and a dozen of eggs. I don't buy the whole protein turns into fat business. Glucose can only turn into fat if there's too much glucose in the bloodstream, which happens after eating a box of "goldfish". I don't think the liver makes excessive amount of glucose. I have not seen my blood sugar shot up that high after a high protein meal. I don't think I put on that much fat when I was eating lean either. Your body will upregulate protein metabolism though, which explains for the increased body heat, hence why protein is thermogenic.
There's a reason why the old school bodybuilders mix their protein with cream. Fat soluble vitamins are important bro. Can't make cell membranes or testosterone without good old saturated fat.
I like it that you were hardheaded like I am. You'll figure it out for yourself when you get sick. Good luck eating lean.
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Protein is very slowly converted to glucose. Slow enough so that insulin can act on it properly without blood sugar moving much if at all. 300g of protein per day is no where near average and is most likely dangerous. I have a bunch of liver and other organs on hand but I have no desire to eat them right now. There was a pretty big stop signal my body put up the last time I ate raw liver but not the couple times before. Could just be randomness or possibly the fact that I have enough of whatever is in liver already. So liver might not be that important except for occasional consumption.
I'd like to hear a plausible explanation why we need more protein than what our body's use for maintenance or repair. It unfortunately doesn't just accumulate in the lean tissue.
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300 grams is not a lot. I don't see how you would grow with 150 grams without eating carbs. If you eat carbs, it's protein sparing and all of the protein can go to building structures. If you're low carbing, most of that protein will be used for energy. The body doesn't store carbs for long term. It has to store protein and fat for the long term. No protein, no glucose, no immunity, etc. That's why being muscular is better for long term health. You don't live too long emaciated without muscles, look at all those starving skinnies in Africa. In order to store protein, you have to eat it in excess. Why do you think women respond to muscular men? They're suppose to, just like men respond to a woman's chest. It's all instinct. If you're only eating 150 grams, you'll maintain, but won't grow. Fat does not turn into muscle, protein does. There's no nitrogen in fat. You don't have to eat 300 everyday, but you do at some point if you want to increase your protein stores aka muscles. How do you expect to grow without eating protein? That's like 95% of the people in the gym, believing that working out makes your muscles bigger. 365 days a year and still look the same. Those muscles need molecules from somewhere, it just doesn't come from outer space or another dimension. Or the other way around, cardio all year round and still look fat and sloppy. Women always compliment me on how great my skin is, I tell them I eat a lot of meat and fat, and they'll just say it's my genetics. It just blows my mind how people don't think diet makes any difference. We're all here because we understand diet does make a difference.
I know protein slowly converts to sugar, that's why you should let your liver handle the glucose making instead of eating carbs. To say that excess protein turns into fat, I personally went thru it, I did not gain fat, I gained muscles. If you can't gain muscles eating that amount of protein, somewhere along the metabolic process, you're missing some vital nutrient or you are already at a genetic setpoint. Go on any steroid forums, those guys are downing protein levels into the 500g. If protein were a waste to eat, these muscle heads would not put much emphasis in it. This should be common knowledge. You really think ancient samurais and knights trained hard and didn't eat a lot of meat(protein). The nobles understood this so well that they made laws that forbade the common person to eat meat, so they can have it all for themselves or their armies. They understood that not allowing the peasants to eat meat would keep them weak and subservient, and besides it's a lot of work back then to raise animals. Can't go passing around the good stuff to the "common man".
Of course you don't want to eat liver all the time. That's just like eating lean meat all the time. You shouldn't eat anything all the time, but you have to eat it sometimes. That just goes back to making sure your diet is balanced.
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I know protein slowly converts to sugar, that's why you should let your liver handle the glucose making instead of eating carbs. ...
Of course you don't want to eat liver all the time. That's just like eating lean meat all the time. You shouldn't eat anything all the time, but you have to eat it sometimes. That just goes back to making sure your diet is balanced.
I'm starting to dislike the copper in liver. I don't like the taste of liver. I think liver keeps some of the toxins it filters, and that means maybe excess copper from the vegetation the animals eat. The glucose too. Maybe it's really just something excess. I'm thinking more and more of zero carb.
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You might want to read some starvation studies. Once sufficiently adapted to the starved environment only about 6g of nitrogen is being lost every day in the excrement which translates to about 35g of protein. There are studies that show that nitrogen balance can be maintained with as little as 30g of protein. The RDA recommended amount is just .8g/kg body weight. If our daily repair demands are this low, which seems to be fact since Americans eat only 15% of their diets from protein and they don't waste away, then where does all this extra protein go? 150g a day would be giving each of us atleast 50g extra grams of protein a day or 250g of muscle (since muscle is 80% water). No one gains half a pound of muscle a day. I think all the extra past what your body uses for repair simply gets converted to glucose. This might start happening at around the 50g mark, especially if you are getting protein from good quality sources.
The reason I believe excess protein is potentially harmful in the long run is because primates lack the necessary enzymes to convert toxic nitrogen waste into allatoin like almost all other mammals. This continual excretion of nitrogen taxes the kidneys. There are many excellent hunter-gatherer populations that have low protein intake with excellent health. The kitavans get just 10% of the their diet from protein.
I'm far stronger than you and am not worried about low protein intake affecting my lifting. I lifted for quite some time with higher than average protein and never really gained much size, though I gained significant strength. The body only repairs muscle to what it needs to be and is conservative in this manner. I'm now experimenting with low protein intake, probably around 70g a day to test whether or not I can maintain nitrogen balance as starvation/low-calorie studies suggest.
But, keep eating 300g a day and keep reporting how much new muscle you get. Measure the nitrogen in your urine and get back to me. I really doubt it'll be any different than when on 150g a day. And yes 300g is way, way too much protein.
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I thought I would be out of control by now, terrorizing fat people down the street, running after them, trying to get some of the rich, creamy goodness mmmm :D
LOL That was hilarious. :)
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I mean this non-judgmentally in regards to safety or effectiveness, but I still don't even see the objective in doing this. Is it simply that they want to eat more protein and thus don't want the satiation from fat, or are they saying that even at 300 g protein or whatever, that eating fat would somehow affect their biochemistry of creating muscle? Or is this merely some kind of bodyfat burning thing?
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Alright then, try it. The average american eats a ton of carbs too. Carbs put you into anabolism. Like I stated before, if you eat carbs with protein, the protein will go towards building structure. What average american eats low carb? Go work out hard everyday and eat a 1lb steak only and see how much gains you'll get.
The only time nitrogen has to be excreted is during the breakdown of amino acids. Unless you plan on running a marathon everyday, there's is no reason your body is going to break down that much protein for energy, unless you have some kind of metabolic problem.
You need to read up on the strongman and bodybuilder diets of the past before the whole steroid and supplement craze came into. Those guys ate tons of eggs, meat, milk, blood, etc... They didn't get strong eating a puny 150 grams a day. Vince Gironda promoted eating 36 eggs a day on top of god knows how much steak he was already eating. 36 eggs a day is roughly 210 grams of protein already. If you want to be anabolic, you need to up your protein period.
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You are getting about 300g of protein a day not anywhere near the 1000g that Red supposedly got. Most of this protein is converted to glucose which is then converted to fat. You could actually lower protein down quite a bit to burn even more body fat. Since your protein intake isn't extravagent its going to take much longer than 3 weeks to show any symptoms that constant nitrogen waste will produce. In fact, you may never show any symptoms with this protein intake. Some body builders might get this much for decades and be fine.
I just looked it up it's 380-480g of protein and 56-96g of fat and 2700-3400 calories, I'm gonna lower it to 2lbs/day by the "worst" estimates, the low end of protein at 250g and a high end of calories @ 2200, that should be speed things up and make them more miserable too, the way dieting should be.
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Dieting is only miserable if you don't have enough protein or fat. Most weight loss diets are high carbs, which messes with hunger. I can skip days without eating easily doing low carb.
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300 grams is not a lot. I don't see how you would grow with 150 grams without eating carbs. If you eat carbs, it's protein sparing and all of the protein can go to building structures. If you're low carbing, most of that protein will be used for energy. The body doesn't store carbs for long term. It has to store protein and fat for the long term. No protein, no glucose, no immunity, etc. That's why being muscular is better for long term health. You don't live too long emaciated without muscles, look at all those starving skinnies in Africa. In order to store protein, you have to eat it in excess. Why do you think women respond to muscular men? They're suppose to, just like men respond to a woman's chest. It's all instinct. If you're only eating 150 grams, you'll maintain, but won't grow. Fat does not turn into muscle, protein does. There's no nitrogen in fat. You don't have to eat 300 everyday, but you do at some point if you want to increase your protein stores aka muscles. How do you expect to grow without eating protein? That's like 95% of the people in the gym, believing that working out makes your muscles bigger. 365 days a year and still look the same. Those muscles need molecules from somewhere, it just doesn't come from outer space or another dimension. Or the other way around, cardio all year round and still look fat and sloppy. Women always compliment me on how great my skin is, I tell them I eat a lot of meat and fat, and they'll just say it's my genetics. It just blows my mind how people don't think diet makes any difference. We're all here because we understand diet does make a difference.
I know protein slowly converts to sugar, that's why you should let your liver handle the glucose making instead of eating carbs. To say that excess protein turns into fat, I personally went thru it, I did not gain fat, I gained muscles. If you can't gain muscles eating that amount of protein, somewhere along the metabolic process, you're missing some vital nutrient or you are already at a genetic setpoint. Go on any steroid forums, those guys are downing protein levels into the 500g. If protein were a waste to eat, these muscle heads would not put much emphasis in it. This should be common knowledge. You really think ancient samurais and knights trained hard and didn't eat a lot of meat(protein). The nobles understood this so well that they made laws that forbade the common person to eat meat, so they can have it all for themselves or their armies. They understood that not allowing the peasants to eat meat would keep them weak and subservient, and besides it's a lot of work back then to raise animals. Can't go passing around the good stuff to the "common man".
Of course you don't want to eat liver all the time. That's just like eating lean meat all the time. You shouldn't eat anything all the time, but you have to eat it sometimes. That just goes back to making sure your diet is balanced.
Great post man. Keep them coming
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Thanks man. It's hard. It seems a lot of people in here have no clue about how much food it takes to see gains or really know anything about bodybuilding nutrtion. Glad to see someone understood it.
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Thanks man. It's hard. It seems a lot of people in here have no clue about how much food it takes to see gains or really know anything about bodybuilding nutrtion. Glad to see someone understood it.
Did you have any problems with facial flush or increased anxiety/heart beat ? I can't understand what has caused this for me. I had it before then it went away and now I have it again. When I am sitting in classroom my face just starts to flush. I can feel how my face goes damn hot and lips start to burn. It it because of ketogenese ? I will skip few glasses of my milk kefir to be sure it's not because of it.
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Sounds like the beginning of rabbit starvation. This is not normal. Ketogenesis just means ketones in blood or urine, it shouldn't make you have a strong/fast heartbeat. Your problem is a imbalance. Go eat some chocolate and/or nuts, that will fill you up with magnesium and the theobromine will help calm down your anxiety.
This is what I'm talking about people, can't eat muscle meat forever. Get your liver and kidneys in your diet. Stop eating like civlilized people and eat like humans are suppose to. Good luck.
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I'm afraid that's simply wrong advice as Lex and I and many others who have tried zero-carb have had issues with rapidly increasing heart-beats during transition, and even well after(months) for a time in the case of some RZCers. Nothing to do with rabbit-starvation.
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Your heart rate shouldn't change just because you eat zero carbs. I eat zero carbs from time to time, I don't notice the heart rate issue. I only notice it when I eat to much muscle meat. It has everything to do with rabbit starvation. That's how it starts, I've been there twice. The first time I had it, I was extrememly lean, and I thought it was because I didn't eat enough fat. This time around I had fat stores and had a worse reaction than last time, indicating I was missing something in my body, but it wasn't fat. You have any idea how many freaking magnesium tablets I had to take to slow me down? Where do you find the most magnesium in a cow? The bones, that means you have to eat more stock or soup made from real bones. After a period of time after going zero carb and eating muscle you will become somewhat more hyperthyroid, this goes back to zinc building up and copper becoming deficient. The more zinc dominant the faster your metabolism becomes. There were times I couldn't even eat a quarter of a chicken, everytime I tried to eat more my heart starts to beat really fast. It took me a little over 2 months to be able to eat normally again. Now I handle eating large amounts of meat without dealing with blood pressure and pulse issues.
If you go zero carb and don't feel good, don't keep going with it. That's your body telling you something is wrong. There's no trial period like that going zero carb. If you feel like crap, you're doing it wrong.
I don't think my advice is bad, the guy can try a little chocolate with nuts, it's not going to kill him, but it can make a world of a difference. The worst it can do is that it doesn't work or you can listen to Tylerdurden, the low carb god, and just suffer with a runaway heart.
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Your heart rate shouldn't change just because you eat zero carbs. ...
I didn't experience it, but Tyler is right that some people (like Lex) did report racing or irregular heartbeats. I think Lex said he thinks it was due to his not having been fat-adapted yet.
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I didn't experience it, but Tyler is right that some people (like Lex) did report racing or irregular heartbeats. I think Lex said he thinks it was due to his not having been fat-adapted yet.
I have definitely experienced that during periods of low-carb. I think that eating a lot of omega-3s and very little omega-6s will probably help. That thins the blood, allowing it to flow more easily.
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I definitely think it is more than just having thick blood. I remember in the hospital I had to keep eating chocolate to keep my heart rate controlled. That's what lead me to believe that something in the chocolate was anti-adrenergic. That's why I started drinking cocoa. 2 months later my cardiovascular system is back to normal.
Take it or leave it.
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I remember in the hospital I had to keep eating chocolate
how did you end up in the hospital?
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I'll 'leave it'. You tend to make quick conclusions, and this time, it was from not eating much fat at all, but a heck of alot of protein. You might like to see what it would be like if you slowly changed the ratio of fat and meat, allowing your body to adapt to using fat as fuel. That is an experiment you can't do overnight and write about your response the next day.
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Eating lean meat only isn't a problem, I set new PRs last night on my bench (Incline+Flat), Snatch and Weighted Dips, it's only a problem if you are under 5.8% body fat.
"In a study of these elite troops, body fat percent dropped from 14.3% at the start of the course to an average of 5.8% at the end. Fat Mass declined according to initial fatness. The body fat loss ceased at a point where each man still carried 2.5 Kg of body fat. This apparently represents a lower limit of body fat loss in healthy men.
In a few soldiers, bodyweight loss, but not body fat loss, continued after reaching this low Fat Mass. This bodyweight loss was fully accounted for by losses in Lean Body Mass. At a critical point in bodyweight loss, the body chooses to spare its remaining fat reserves. Now, instead of losing fat, it sacrifices proteins (muscles and organs) to provide fuel. " P. 196, UDS, Dr. Greggory Ellis
Maybe an extreme amount of lean would be bad, but then, other than sex and sports, everything extreme is bad for you.
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Similar to the the lower limit of body fat, which when 'pushed at'(from consuming too little fat for what you're using whilst already at the lower limit) causes the body to resort to breaking down essential structures for vital energy; there seems to be an upper limit too, which when 'pushed at'(from consuming too much fat for what you're using whilst already at the upper limit) leads the body to into a reckless overdrive in order to use up the excess fat and prevent it being stored, which means the body is carrying out some processes in excess, or when they should not be carried out at all and this causes problems. So there would be a 'safe range' between maybe 6-16% in which body fat ideally lies. This would mean you could afford to lower or increase dietary fat as long as you increase/decrease appropriately before hitting these boundaries and maintain body fat% within this range. This is just how it seems to me at the moment...
[Also this is separate but I did not get an answer before: People have spoken here about the Eskimos drinking a lot of water. Do they get this from melting snow? Thanks.]
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Melting ice, not snow.
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Eating lean meat only isn't a problem, I set new PRs last night on my bench (Incline+Flat), Snatch and Weighted Dips, it's only a problem if you are under 5.8% body fat.
"In a study of these elite troops, body fat percent dropped from 14.3% at the start of the course to an average of 5.8% at the end. Fat Mass declined according to initial fatness. The body fat loss ceased at a point where each man still carried 2.5 Kg of body fat. This apparently represents a lower limit of body fat loss in healthy men.
In a few soldiers, bodyweight loss, but not body fat loss, continued after reaching this low Fat Mass. This bodyweight loss was fully accounted for by losses in Lean Body Mass. At a critical point in bodyweight loss, the body chooses to spare its remaining fat reserves. Now, instead of losing fat, it sacrifices proteins (muscles and organs) to provide fuel. " P. 196, UDS, Dr. Greggory Ellis
Maybe an extreme amount of lean would be bad, but then, other than sex and sports, everything extreme is bad for you.
I actually agree, that at least in the short term, eating just lean meat, might not be a problem at all, as long as you are not eating too much protein. The simplest explanation for this would be that, as long as you had enough body fat, all your energy needs should come straight from your own body, with the protein sparing your muscle and providing much needed glucose for proper brain function through gluconeogenesis. Very overweight people can actually not eat for very long periods of time, provided they are given a few supplements for mineral and vitamin balance. Lyle McDonald has a book on a diet called the protein-sparing modified fast that is designed to get you to safely lose the most weight in the least amount of time. You simply eat just enough protein to spare muscle and essential fats and the rare carb refeed.
Now, whether this will disturb your metabolism in the future is a huge question for concern. In keys famous starvation study, the men regained all their fat stores and more very quickly after refeeding. I can't remember if the study lasted long enough to see if their fat stores eventually went back to their pre-study amounts.
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I have Lyle's RFL book, I don't do refeeds or cheat meals, or eat any carbs, the men in Ancel Keys' study did and I think Cheats/Refeeds are damaging and useless.
I am hungry these days, I was on plan except for one time, someone left 1lb of liver cheese wrapped in pork fat, I ate the whole thing without chewing. ;D
Once I get to the body fat levels I want, I will increase fat by a bit, keep protein 250-300g. Fat gain is much slower on a zero carb diet, if I'm gaining fat, I'll reduce the fat a bit, if I'm losing, increase it and if maintaining, then no change.
I think most people do regain their weight because:
1-Carbs are addictive and they taste so good.
2-A mixed diet promotes more fat gain than a zero carb diet.
3-Hunger/Insulin are not controlled on a mixed diet like a zero carb (high fat) diet.
4-Humans suck at long term changes (Alcoholism, weed, cigarettes, gambling, junk food, etc....)
5-Food tastes good, we like to eat and be lazy.
6-People think that once they lose the weight, they can re-introduce some of their foods "in moderation". Moderation after deprivation is rare.
7-Societal structure and upbringing also make it harder to stay on a plan in some/most cases.
I think if you control hunger (high fat/zero carb diet), do a calorie/fat up(lost of fatty meat) once a week or so or when needed to stay on track and lift heavy weights do some cardio, you'll be good.