Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: bharminder on August 31, 2010, 08:03:04 am
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Hey guys I got about 4 pounds of raw fresh wild salmon from whole foods. The fish there was whole except it was degutted and deheaded. They filleted it for me and I got a good price, that's why I got 4 pounds worth as they were only selling the entire fish.
So I ate it and got abdominal discomfort. Then the following day I cut some more but intuitively guessed there could be worms. So I cut it up very well but couldn't find any. I kept looking and then I found some. Then I marinated a few pieces in lemon juice to see if that did anything and found some more. All in all I only inspected about 1 pounds worth, as I already had eaten 2 pounds (and consequently gotten a stomach ache) and I didn't inspect the last one ( I just steamed it becasue I didn't want to throw it away)
So here is a video that I recorded of the little white approx 1 inch worms and extremely thin in diameter. They were both coiled and they also swim like powerful robust animals. They have been swimming non stop for the last 3 hours in this little container of water I put them in.
Before I put them in this container shown in the video, I put some habaneros on them and tried to squeeze the juice from the pepper onto the worms to see if that would kill them. Also there are a few pieces of corn in the container that fell in when I was cutting some up.
Anyways what do you all make of these worms. I believe they were the cause to my abdominal discomfort, though I can't prove it. How would anyody else have handled this situation? Find them and pick them out and eat the rest of the fish? chuck the whole fish?
I guess my main question is how do I go about continuing to eat meat the paleo way?
http://s936.photobucket.com/albums/ad206/bharminder147/?action=view¤t=MOV04112.mp4
(http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad206/bharminder147/th_MOV04112.jpg) (http://s936.photobucket.com/albums/ad206/bharminder147/?action=view¤t=MOV04112.mp4)
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Yeah, I see these guys in salmon, and sometimes cod all the time, although I haven't eaten alot of either lately. I assume there are smaller guys that you can't see in at least all the omnivorous creatures we eat if not pastured ruminant meat. I have a hunch actually that the larger ones have less chance of actually making it through your stomach acids but I don't know how scientific that is.
Its hard to say definitively, but if I had any concern I would make sure I ate a very clean and probably all raw basically fiber-less diet, and facilitated other practices where there was very little debris for parasites to thrive.
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How would anyody else have handled this situation? Find them and pick them out and eat the rest of the fish? chuck the whole fish?
I had similar experience with Smelt one time. I ate a fish or two then found some worms in the next. It did deter my desire to eat fish for a bit but I got over it. Finished the fish they were in after going over it closely to avoid eating any worms.
If they're so prevalent I'd most likely toss it. I don't know if they'll hurt you but it's not terribly appetizing IMO.
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Never had that experience with the wild salmon I buy. Although, the salmon I but is frozen usually.
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Hmm, when discussing this on the forum it is no big deal. But then when I go to live my life it becomes a much bigger, and huge deal, especially since I still feel abdominal discomfort since yesterday.
I'm not sure what I should do. Should I just start freezing all meat that I get? or is the prevalence of this worms not harmful(which I'm having a tough time believing in, but am open to any possibility)
I just feel that the theory that parasites only feed on waste is not realistic because humans thrive on healthy, nutritious food, yet if all nutritious food were absent and the only food available was unhealthy, junk food, then humans would still eat that junk food.
Likewise if a parasite were in a human's body who was totally healthy and there was no waste for it to feed on, I believe it would still eat whatever food it could to survive.
Either way, I'm interested in finding a solution to this predicament. I feel that Whole Foods market is a pretty reliable place for food including meat as the other stores I've visited the food doesn't look nearly as fresh, and many don't have fresh meat counters, just simply prepackaged meat.
So, I guess I could freeze all meat. But I remember reading that freezing the meat damages it and creates more wasteful byproducts. However, with the amount of worms i found(5 or so) in a 1 pound fillet, and there were 4 pounds of fillet in all, I'm sure there were more than 5 total as they were so hidden they were like finding a needle in a haystack. I feel really set back even though I was making great progress. Any advice guys? Freeze it? Toss it? Eat it after deworming it? The thought of worms growing into large 1 foot worms piling up in the abdominal area sounds it could be highly dangerous
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well, there does seem to be some intellectual and casual dismissal about such things, but largely because people don't seem to experience much damage/symptoms at least that they know of.
I just feel that the theory that parasites only feed on waste is not realistic because humans thrive on healthy, nutritious food, yet if all nutritious food were absent and the only food available was unhealthy, junk food, then humans would still eat that junk food.
Likewise if a parasite were in a human's body who was totally healthy and there was no waste for it to feed on, I believe it would still eat whatever food it could to survive.
I don't quite understand your analogy as there should be little undigested and decaying matter passing through the digestive system if it is properly combined/moves quickly through the bowel etc...its not like these things chill in the esophogus and prefer twix bars but will eat meat if starving. The idea (true or not) is that it eats decaying tissue if its deprived of foods like digested and fermented sugars and so forth. No decaying tissue would just mean death.
I think the raw flesh sandwich thing was really pushing the envelope there. I would chalk it up to a fluke that it didn't bother you before. Also there have been some anecdotes here about some people having problems with raw salmon in general.
although I've gotten over the frozen red meat thing (as long as eat a good quantity of fresh meat to compliment), I won't regularly consume frozen fish, poultry, or pork. Just my preference/idea of what is safe. All these foods seem to have more intense bacteria for me even fresh.
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True the sandwich thing might be a fluke, ...isn't the incidence of at least 5 of these worms also a possibility of abdominal pain?
Symptoms of these kinds of worms from fish include nausea, abdominal pain, etc. according to my google research. I don't mean to argue.
Its just that I want to find a solution to this because I think cooking creates toxic compounds, particularly for foods that can be eaten in their raw states, i.e. flesh foods. Beans and rice, on the other hand....I don't really think can be handled well in their raw state.
However healthy I think raw flesh foods are, this isn't the first time I've found these kinds of worms in fish. I prefer seafood over other types of flesh food however due to their nutrition(essential fatty acids, zinc, b vitamins, protein, iodine,), but I want to get over this whole parasite thing.
I refuse to consciously consume these living worms though, as my google research indicates these worms can not only cause intestinal blockages in heavy infestations but they can also migrate to other parts of the body.
I guess what is confusing is why are all these wild fish infested with parasites in the first place? And I'm finding most of these worms in their flesh, not the organs which have been removed prior to market sale.
So I agree that freezing is a great option, and I usually don't eat previously frozen fish or other meats, considering the availability to me. But how can I assure myself that all these visible worms have been removed? It takes far too long to cut the fish horizontally into long slices and then vertically to ensure there are no worms within the slices.
It seems as though despite numerous cuts I miss worms that marinating the fish in lemon juice have revealed. Therefore my confidence in my ability to spot these worms has decreased.
I feel a huge dilemma. To avoid flesh foods from reasonable fear from these worms isn't optimal because I'll be missing out on a lot of nutrition and health. but to ignore these worms and eat them, would be equally as bad because eaten in high enough numbers over time
these worms can likely cause some health problems, which often may not surface until months later, possibly a year or more. Any idea of solutions to this often encountered dilemma? I'm not willing to give up flesh foods for fear of these worms, but ignoring this issue and just eating the worms is not healthy.
Any differing opinions are welcome as these are simply my beliefs. And a way out of this dilemma that I'm in would be most appreciated
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If salmon doesn't work for you, I'm sure there are HUNDREDS of other alternative sea food out there for you.
Wet market hunting is just that.
Choose what seems right for you.
Discard those that suck, even if they are wild.
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At what point should I consider a piece of fish to be unacceptable? 1 worm, 2 worms, 3 worms?
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did the article say these symptoms occur so shortly after ingestion? that seems pretty odd to me. I've had some super intense intestinal stuff, always banked on it being bacterial or toxin related as I vomited up metallic liquid, and never seen a worm or any food matter. I think the parasite concern would be as you say more about potential long term problems to organs or other types that are particularly nasty.
My understanding is that most wild animals are intensely infested with some sorts of parasites. Largely they exist within harmony of that ecology, but it is true for sure that parasites can and will overwhelm certain creatures/penetrate their organs etc...and result in premature death.
I think the process of searching out worms will eventually prove fairly maddening. I mean even conventional dieters and raw vegans and such come into contact with parasites. Parasite spokespeople speak about not touching babies and kissing people you don't know and such. it is sort of a joke. I can't vouch 100% for it, but I think maintaining a proper environment seems to be the best way to prevent conflicts, short of that I would recommend just cooking it, particularly if you are mixing foods which is a recipe for poor digestionand transit of quick moving raw flesh foods. I believe if you are going to eat frozen fish, you might as well buy it pre-frozen as it should be less degenerated that way and likely cheaper than freezing stuff sitting out for a day or two.
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At what point should I consider a piece of fish to be unacceptable? 1 worm, 2 worms, 3 worms?
That may be totally up to you.
If I am certain that fish made me sick, I would not feed it to my kids and I'd throw the rest of it out.
Problem with this salmon, is you bought a big fish and may feel a bit of a waste to throw it out.
If it was a small fish, you'd throw it out in a jiffy.
I've had times I bought a kilo of fish and my cook said my fish wasn't fresh, so I did not feed it to my kids.
Spoilage is part of the learning and experience and you will have to earn your lumps.
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At what point should I consider a piece of fish to be unacceptable? 1 worm, 2 worms, 3 worms?
What kind of salmon? (not that it matters)
I would recommend grass fed bison to you (I get it from north star bison). I like it myself.
I will try to figure out the brand of wild frozen salmon I get from this health food store. It taste fresh even when frozen and and has nice deep orange color. I will let you know what the brand is soon (sent the store a message). For now, you might want to stay away from sea food at whole foods if it gives you problems.
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I try to think of worms as a bit of extra protein. Whether that is the case though I don't know.
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I try to think of worms as a bit of extra protein. Whether that is the case though I don't know.
That's what I was thinking. I never even look for worms.
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That's what I was thinking. I never even look for worms.
Same here, i never looked for a worm in my life, i assumed they were eggs then hatched inside of you
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I'm not one of those people who are like, oh worms? "i'm never eating fish again"......or anything like that. I still want to consume wild fish. I like salmon in particular because it is a fatty fish with lots of good fats, and from what i've read on google that tuna has far less fat. Tuna is generally 2x more than salmon, pound for pound.
This particular salmon that I got was called fresh Wild keta Salmon and I think it also said Pacific in parenthesis.
Usually the kind of salmon I get is wild coho or sockeye. Other than shellfish like oysters and clams, salmon is the only fish I eat because the tuna and swordfish are pretty expensive, like $20 a pound, and scallops are a similar price.
So if you found a couple living worms in the fish by chance, would you still eat it ? I guess I can always discard the fish or possibly return it....I'm just not sure how many fish will be tainted with the worms. Salmon is about to go out of season anyway. I guess this will play out over time but I just wanted immediate answers because i utilize flesh foods as an important part of my diet and after finding these worms I've been subconsciously questioning that choice. I want to continue eating flesh foods but am not fond of these live worms or abdominal discomforts (which i believe to be because of the worms, though it could be from the pollution or general quality of the fish)
I would've tossed out a little small fishy , since I got 4-5 pounds I felt obligated to eat it.
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Try and eat many different kinds of fish raw.
You may surprised that medium sized and small fish are good raw too.
Here are a couple of pics of the wide selection of fish daily in the big wet market beside my office.
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Wow cool deal! Must be nice living there, with a nice variety of fresh foods to eat.
I realize in hindsight from this experience that I was over reacting, after all, a parasite infection can be handled by drugs or herbs.
But the thought of worms either becoming concentrated in numbers or migrating to other body parts was a weakening thought.
Another reason I am more accepting is that after some google research, some websites have indicated that the most common type of worm in salmon and most fish are roundworms, and that they cannot survive in humans long term, and after 3-10 days should die off. On those websites the symptoms were listed as cramping, bloating, diareha. I just have the cramping
abdominal pain that has lasted for about 1 1/2 days now. But it's nothing severe, I just expect perfect health and any slight deviation from that feeling always concerns me as I feel vitality and health are achievable goals to maintain throughout our lives.
So, I will continue to purchase salmon and the other shellfish, and I will be more diligent in slicing up the fish slowly and properly to inspect it for worms deep in the flesh. Mostly they were near the skin, as the fillet was somewhat thick. The inspectors must not have been able to see them so deep in the fillet cut. These worms in the video looked powerful for their size. I recorded the video after 3 hours, and before I put them in the water container, I had them in the same container without water, and i even smeared them with habanero,
thinking it would kill them. I thought it did too, as they seemed dead, but then I added a bunch of water in there and they started swimming crazily for like 3 hours! I can see how these worms try to migrate to other areas of the body because they seem like they are constantly moving and if they penetrate the intestinal lining they can swim into other areas of the body.
Here are some websites that allowed me to come to this conclusion(about fish roundworms not being a problem other than possible discomfort, though not everyone experiences symptoms:
http://seafood.ucdavis.edu/pubs/parasite.htm
http://www.13.waisays.com/fish.htm
From this experience I've learned that I should diligently check the fish(albeit destroying it's texture by cutting it up so many times) for more significant live worms and less significant dead worms and put them aside so I can get all the benefits of raw while not succumbing to the worms.
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http://www.uncurednaturalmeats.com/products
HERE'S THE BRAND I GET
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I've never gotten along with raw salmon, even when it's been frozen. I always have a little nausea, and get a moderately bad case of gas.
It's important to be responsive to your body when trying something new. If raw salmon doesn't agree with you, stop eating it. I doubt the stomach discomfort is from the worms, although they may cause more symptoms later on if they become established.
More generally, I rarely eat fish. I subsist primarily on ruminants, including deer, cattle, sheep, goat, bison. I eat muscle meats, organ meats, marrow and suet. That's worked very well for me, and I never have abdominal symptoms.
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so I don't get.....if parasites like some worms only establish themselves when there is dead decaying matter in the body, then why do wild fish like salmon sometimes show parasites? Or the infamous worms in cod? Thes aren't factory farmed animals, so why would they have these worm infestations feeding on a raw diet in the wild?
and these abdominal symptoms were only with this type of salmon(wild pacific keta). I generally get other salmon (coho, sockeye, whatever is available generally) and other shellfish and don't show any symptoms. Next time I'll take back the salmon and ask for something else or another fillet of salmon if I find worms in it.
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It is VERY much easier to catch an insect than to catch a fish. Our paleolithic ancestors ate insects frequently.
Folks in IndoChina do still do. They claim the insects are delicious.
If a worm hatched out of an egg laid in a wholesome fish, and then spent its whole life eating that nutritious wholesome fish.... does that mean the worm is a valuable bit of protein?
Your report of stomach discomfort is meaningful in your eyes, but to an objective outside observer, it is merely a specimen of "confirmation bias". Show us a lab report which confirms presence of parasite eggs in your stools, then we will believe that there was any real problem.
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Ah, I've never seen things from that point of view before. We must share different customs.
If the theory is that "parasites" like worms only sustain themselves on decaying tissue in an animal, and generally don't take hold in healthy animals, why are wild animals and fish sometimes full of parasites?
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so I don't get.....if parasites like some worms only establish themselves when there is dead decaying matter in the body, then why do wild fish like salmon sometimes show parasites?
I don't buy the theory that parasites only establish themselves when there is dead or decaying matter in the body. The wild salmon you bought disproves it. AV makes this claim in his Primal Diet books, but while I admit there are benefits to eating animal foods raw I think he takes, and gets his clients to take, some pretty obscene risks.
I hunt and have butchered my share of wild whitetail deer here in the United States. With a perfectly natural and nutritious diet, deer will sometimes have parasites--liver flukes, stomach worms, brain worms, lung worms, esophageal worms, etc.--and sometimes not. Most of the time the parasites exist at a low enough population density that they aren't pathological (i.e. they don't cause symptoms that harm the animal). But sometimes they do, and sometimes wild animals with access to perfectly healthy diets become so overridden with parasites that they die.
While small amounts of parasites won't hurt us, I don't think it's in our best interest to create silly theories that predispose us to infection. On the other hand, I suppose that's natural selection at work. Stupid folks who think parasites can't hurt them or are good for them will be the ones who end up with pathological concentrations of parasites, be sick all the time, be quite unattractive to members of the opposite sex, have fewer children, etc.
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I had parasites pre paleo, blood parasites and pin worms , I also had severe pancreatic and liver pains with blood sugar problems, I had liver congestion and a High Eosiniphle count(a clear indication of parasite infection).
I may or may not have had flukes its hard to tell because they are prevalent, but rarely diagnosed.
In some parts of the south east united states 7% of autopsy's revel trichinosis,even in people without symptoms
In the time when my grandmother was a child the old folks claimed she had worms an made her down Castor oil and ware a sack of herbs around her neck.
Now that I am on a Low carb raw paleo diet all my gut trauma has vanished. I am not as sure as AV about the harmlessness of parasites, but I do believe if you clean up your digestion and rid yourself of excess carbs, grains and fibrous material then it is much harder for pathogenic varieties to gain a foot hold, plus with the immune system free from having to fight off gluttins and what not is more able to purge the pathogens once they do start to cause problems or get out of their place.
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I agree with your wise comments, Eric. Have you experienced any parasite issues since eating RPD?
I've never observed problems from 10 years of eating raw meats but am reluctant to eat raw fish. I used to eat it a couple of times a week but would always marinate it in lemon juice. I've had too many issues with it on the few occasions I've eaten it straight raw (oysters, sushi, fresh salmon/tuna). Like you, I rarely eat fish at all now.
I'm keen to introduce my 15 month old son to more raw animal foods but he is, so far, reluctant to eat any meat. He enjoys fish cooked in bone broth. I'm experimenting at the moment with freezing fish for 14 days (to kill parasites), and then serving it dehydrated in cooled broth or with raw butter/egg yolk sauce. It's a rather convoluted procedure but I'm still conscious of potential parasite issues and certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for infecting him with tapeworms etc! I pray for the day he starts eating raw meats!
gs, have you ever used any of the herbal worm formulas on your children? If so, at what age? I sometimes use a herbal formula using fresh herbal extracts of black walnut, wormwood and cloves but am not sure if it would be wise to give it to my young son if I suspected parasite issues.
bharminder, nice catch! ;D Salmon, particularly due to periodically swimming in freshwater, is renowned for carrying tapeworms as I understand it. Did you identify the worms in your picture?
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Hi Michael, according to this website: http://www.13.waisays.com/fish.htm
Those worms are not able to survive in humans for long and may cause temporary digestive upset. Though I'm not sure what they were
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I agree with your wise comments, Eric. Have you experienced any parasite issues since eating RPD?
I've never observed problems from 10 years of eating raw meats but am reluctant to eat raw fish. I used to eat it a couple of times a week but would always marinate it in lemon juice. I've had too many issues with it on the few occasions I've eaten it straight raw (oysters, sushi, fresh salmon/tuna). Like you, I rarely eat fish at all now.
I'm keen to introduce my 15 month old son to more raw animal foods but he is, so far, reluctant to eat any meat. He enjoys fish cooked in bone broth. I'm experimenting at the moment with freezing fish for 14 days (to kill parasites), and then serving it dehydrated in cooled broth or with raw butter/egg yolk sauce. It's a rather convoluted procedure but I'm still conscious of potential parasite issues and certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for infecting him with tapeworms etc! I pray for the day he starts eating raw meats!
gs, have you ever used any of the herbal worm formulas on your children? If so, at what age? I sometimes use a herbal formula using fresh herbal extracts of black walnut, wormwood and cloves but am not sure if it would be wise to give it to my young son if I suspected parasite issues.
bharminder, nice catch! ;D Salmon, particularly due to periodically swimming in freshwater, is renowned for carrying tapeworms as I understand it. Did you identify the worms in your picture?
LOL, people in my country have the opposite attitude towards meat. Most Filipinos will eat raw fish but will say no no no to raw land animals.
Yes, I have used herbal dewormers on my children. Barefoot Herbalist MH and Humaworm for kids. I've done 30 day programs on all 3 children. Of course I did it on myself first. Only then did I do it on my kids. I keep some barefoot dewormer for emergencies. It works for amoebas. Amoeba is very common here. My wife and my sister in law have benefited from emergency treatment with dewormers for amoeba.
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amoebas are very common everywhere only most people with strong immune systems can fight it without parasite cleanses. Children often contact them at an early age and quickly develop defences against, for example Montezuma revenge is cause by gut parasites that the south American locals are completely immune to but travelers often fall prey to, but even travelers get over the initial infection and develop some immunity if they aren't already malnourished.
Also amoebas are common in the west but are rarely diagnosed and may be responsible for many chronic illnesses in immune compromised individuals. My son when he was exclusively breastfed would pass these quarter inch black worms in the yellow breast milk waste , I was extremely concerned , but after a few days they disappeared and I only assume he was able to flush them out. My people come from hill country and the old folks said my granny had worms when she was 4 because she wasn't gaining weight, so they gave her the Castor oil treatment along with an herbal remedy. The old ways of parasite cleansing have been forgotten and modern medicine rarely diagnoses parasite infection even though the majority of people get some type of infection throughout there life. Perhaps paleo baby developed a strong immunity to these pest by drinking antibody rich paleo fed breast milk for the first 3 years as well as chewed up meat as the first food, Early exposure often builds the strongest immunity against these invaders.
My 2 year old eats a little red meat and marrow as well as oysters and drinks eggs AV style, she is beautiful and thriving, my 8 month old is eating pea sized chunks of meat and fat along with my homemade formula and she is a complete butterball(they are the hardyest healthyest children I know, no exaggeration)
My three year old boy was born pre paleo so by the time I offered him some Paleo fodder he was already grain adapted so its difficult to get him to eat raw, but he loves rare steak and overeasy eggs with cooked Bacon(cooked Weston price) he does like sushi and I do give him cod liver oil
I wish you could see my little one grin with delight everytime I give her a small taste of marrow, the key is to give them taste of animal foods before anything else and they will love it, If you wait to long and feed them fruit and vegges first then you will discourage their taste for other foods. My two year old started on raw egg at 6 months(my great grand mother did the same thing, Durring the great depression there were no vitamin enriched factory foods available so she mixed an egg in with raw milk and gave it to all her babies along with cod liver oil.
It is sometimes hard for some to accept what I am doing with the children's diet so I am forced to keep things down low, I hope I can be safe here, but where I live the little Kidd's around look so dumb and sickly and have to go on antibiotics all the time and have allergy's to everything, many have this dull unhealthy complexion, I tears me up so see 2 year old drinking soda pop and eatting candy. Then I look at how my children stand out from that crowd and it gives me the strength to carry on, I let them play in the sun and run along with the chickens and climb in the dog pin, and help me when I had goats, my dogs had worms and the chickens have amoebas and the goats had who knows and I let them run around the small farm and Like the old time farm folk I think exposure to these things builds up a strong immune system, as long as there are no imbalances, and you do hose them off from time to time. But I swear I see the germaphobs Kidd's that are washed in antibacterial agents and doused in sunscreen, just look so poorly when compared to the more robust outdoorsy living kids.
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LOL, people in my country have the opposite attitude towards meat. Most Filipinos will eat raw fish but will say no no no to raw land animals.
Perhaps it's all in my head then gs! :) It's interesting how an understanding of different cultures can sometimes enlighten our own perspectives. Of course, it could also be considered as a consequence of other matters. Are the animal husbandry techniques of equal standard between Asia and UK/US? Is the access to fresh fish an important factor? Or, is there a case for the argument that Filipinos are more immune/adapted to the fish pathogens than the land animal pathogens and the inverse for (some) Westerners?
Yes, I have used herbal dewormers on my children.
Good to know, thanks.
...Perhaps paleo baby developed a strong immunity to these pest by drinking antibody rich paleo fed breast milk for the first 3 years as well as chewed up meat as the first food, Early exposure often builds the strongest immunity against these invaders.
Yes, my thoughts exactly. As with avoidance of all vaccinations, I believe in building natural resistance/immunity from correct feeding and lifestyle.
My 2 year old eats a little red meat and marrow as well as oysters and drinks eggs AV style, she is beautiful and thriving, my 8 month old is eating pea sized chunks of meat and fat along with my homemade formula and she is a complete butterball(they are the hardyest healthyest children I know, no exaggeration)
Congratulations sabertooth and thanks for sharing your experiences feeding your children. That's wonderful to hear.
Unfortunately, it doesn't quite seem to be panning out the same for me. My son still has no interest in meat despite great efforts at preparing it in all manner of ways. He has never done so even though it was among the first foods I tried to introduce. I only hope the amount of cooked fish, bone broths and scrambled eggs he's eaten over the last months hasn't ruined any potential for a RPD in his case! The difficulty is exasperated, I suppose, by the fact that his mother eats a cooked diet. Therefore, he was exposed to this in the pre-natal period as well as, perhaps, imitating his mother's eating patterns now.
It is sometimes hard for some to accept what I am doing with the children's diet so I am forced to keep things down low
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. From strangers to friends to schools to child classes to grandparents. It can make life very difficult! They would all be so much happier if I started filling him with fruit, vegetables, breads, biscuits and all manner of other junk despite the proof of the pudding they see before their very eyes!
I tears me up so see 2 year old drinking soda pop and eatting candy. Then I look at how my children stand out from that crowd and it gives me the strength to carry on, I let them play in the sun and run along with the chickens and climb in the dog pin, and help me when I had goats
Know you are doing the right thing always sabertooth! I feel the same. All around me I see quite obviously sickly, pale children and I fear for their and our human future! Even though my own son is not eating quite how I would choose, he likewise stands out from the crowd. We can never go out without strangers stopping us in the street commenting on how handsome he is, what a wonderful tan he has, what incredible large white straight teeth he has, what a delightful temperament he has, what a happy little boy he is etc... There is no luck involved in this. As it is for I, it is for you and it is for Delfuego et al.
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I have eaten raw fish for over 30 years, and am a sushi chef.
It is rare, but the possibility of contracting anisakis with raw fresh salmon is not worth the risk.
Freezing it first will kill anisakis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anisakis
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences Pimativo. That's interesting.
How long do you usually freeze the fish? Do you consider the figure stated by Sally Fallon / Weston Price Foundation of 14 days as accurate and suitable for killing all parasites and their eggs?
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Freezing really isn't necessary. Reports of issues with parasites from raw fish in the RVAF diet community are so rare, involving no real side-effects of note, that it's nothing to worry about. I would accept that cooked-foodists might have issues given their compromised immune-systems etc., but for us it's no big deal. Besides, anisakis is cited as dying in the human gut over time, anyway.
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I appreciate your comments TD and am aware that for most people this does not seem to present a problem. Unfortunately, my own experiences do not reflect this. Parasites in raw fish/seafood remain a concern to me due, purely, to problems I've experienced with them on any occasion that I've eaten them raw without freezing or marinating. I appreciate that this may be due to possible remaining personal biological dysfunction such as low stomach acid, imperfect immune system etc. This may render any problems I experience irrelevant to others but could perhaps serve as a warning that one hat does not fit all in this case.
With my own confidence in the safety of consuming raw fish/seafood somewhat questionable, the matter becomes a larger concern at the moment when deciding what to feed my 16 month old son. Clearly, I'm not going to feed him something I am not 100% convinced is safe. In cases such as this freezing becomes a viable consideration.
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I got some salmon that also had worms. I cut it open and saw them squirming around. I saw some tuna in a store that had a sign that said shushi grade. I asked them what that meant, and the man told me that shushi grade is fish that had been frozen. I also checked on the Internet and found this http://www.sushifaq.com/sushi-sashimi-info/sushi-grade-fish/ (http://www.sushifaq.com/sushi-sashimi-info/sushi-grade-fish/)
I think everyone already has parasites, especially if you're going to eat raw meat, so I take food grade diatomaceous earth to keep them in check. If you decide to take diatomaceous earth, make sure it's food grade.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anisakis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anisakis)
I'm reading this article as I eat some wild-caught king salmon I just bought from whole foods.
I always buy pre-frozen fish (it's typically been frozen longer than 2 weeks). If it hasn't been pre-frozen, I freeze it for 2 weeks.
This salmon I'm eating has been previously frozen.
I don't follow the same precautions for grass fed land animals, or eggs.
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interesting to see all the activity so quickly on this thread. Pacific salmon carry two worms. ( l have spoken at least several hours with a doctor specializing in parasites, she's well informed. The worms in the photos attach themselves to the stomach lining. Hence the discomfort. They can only be taken care of with instruments that go down your throat, or you can let them naturally die off. They don't reinfect, or lay eggs. The other more troublesome worm is the fish tape worm. It can grow up to 25 feet long. When I used to eat Salmon wild fresh from the pacific, I would blend or chop a million times the fish first, thus destroying the worms. As you did, you can find them if you put on glasses and have good lighting and carefully go through the fish. Atlantic salmon doesn't have the same worms, nor does farmed. And Maybe that's why those like tyler and other europeans say they never have problems with salmon. All you have to do is freeze till completely frozen. The whole thing where some say you have to freeze for ten days is wrong. But, I don't care for frozen foods.
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Van, most of the posts date back oct 2010
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i wouldn't trust meat from whole foods, they have horrible handling practices even by raf standards. always too much moisture is one thing, and going between being in fresh air and being wrapped in plastic so anaerobic decomposing takes place which is when stuff gets foul not high. i dont know, i worked for the company for 5 years and definitely think some of their stores are gross, especially the fish and meat departments and prepared foods. not to mention how much of a scam they are :(
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I have a close friend that works there and gets me 20% off.
Also their grass fed beef comes from a farm I like and visited, white oaks pastures.
I haven't noticed any problems with their meats/fish yet, and I've eaten them high.
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It sounded like you said that marinating it in lemon juice caused the worms to come out. Is that what happened? So could you marinate it in lemon juice for a long time, let the worms come out, and then discard the lemon juice with the worms in it? I've never done this or seen this before, so I don't know. I've only read in several different places that marinating fish helps get rid of worms somehow.
I'm pretty sure that I've had temporary worm infestations before too, from eating fish, and I don't remember what type of fish it was, but I remember it happened the one time when I experimented with cooking the fish lightly so that it was almost raw. Afterwards, I could actually feel worms crawling in my intestines for a couple of days, and then they went away on their own. I didn't marinate the fish or do anything to hunt for worms.
I have also read about something called 'candling.' You hold up a candle, or any kind of light - it was invented back before we had batteries or electric lights - and you hold the light up behind a thinly sliced piece of fish, and you can see the worms through it.
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I just read something else:
http://seafood.ucdavis.edu/pubs/parasite.htm (http://seafood.ucdavis.edu/pubs/parasite.htm)
"Dry-salting fish, or curing them in a saturated salt brine, for 5-7 days before pickling will kill nematodes and tapeworms. Pickling without salt curing may not destroy some nematodes."
So if you put a bunch of salt on the fish while it's dry, or else leave the fish sitting in salty water, it says this will kill the worms. You'd have to wash off the salt, and you might not want to be eating a bunch of extra salt on your food. I wonder if the fish would taste yucky and spoiled after sitting in a bunch of salt water for a week? Is it at room temperature, or is it in the refrigerator?
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Fish is the only food I intentionally get frozen, or make sure it's been frozen for 2 weeks to kill parasites. Everything else I'll eat raw - liver, brain, kidney, tongue, heart, muscle meats, eggs.
But for some reason I just feel like salmon is likely to have parasites so I always get it pre-frozen.
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Atlantic salmon doesn't have the same worms, nor does farmed. And Maybe that's why those like tyler and other europeans say they never have problems with salmon.
In The Netherlands if you buy wild salmon it is almost always from the Pacific. Same in England if I remember correctly.
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Ate some monkfish with anisakis on my road trip a few days ago, no stomach discomfort to report yet, will lyk if anything comes of it :-)
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I'm actually switching from raw paleo to cooked paleo because of similar issues (http://"http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/health/tapeworm-other-food-poisoning/msg109227").
I passed some worms that I think were tapeworms and I've been getting diarrhea from a wide variety of meats and eggs. I started this diet after reading Aajonus Vonderplanitz's book, but now I think his claims regarding nearly zero risk of issues with bacteria, parasites, and food poisoning are irresponsibly dangerous and bogus.
I think parasites and other food poisoning issues may be why humans started cooking our meat in the first place.
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I'm actually switching from raw paleo to cooked paleo because of similar issues (http://"http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/health/tapeworm-other-food-poisoning/msg109227").
I passed some worms that I think were tapeworms and I've been getting diarrhea from a wide variety of meats and eggs. I started this diet after reading Aajonus Vonderplanitz's book, but now I think his claims regarding nearly zero risk of issues with bacteria, parasites, and food poisoning are irresponsibly dangerous and bogus.
I think parasites and other food poisoning issues may be why humans started cooking our meat in the first place.
Not trying to tell you what to do. But most users on the forum experience no problems with parasites. I've been eating raw since the beginning of 2012, and I've never really had any problems with parasites or even food poisoning. In fact, the only time I got food poisoning was when I ate uncleaned eggs. After ordering those same eggs cleaned, I never got diarrhea again. Either way, good luck to you in your health journey whatever you decide.
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I'm actually switching from raw paleo to cooked paleo because of similar issues (http://"http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/health/tapeworm-other-food-poisoning/msg109227").
I passed some worms that I think were tapeworms and I've been getting diarrhea from a wide variety of meats and eggs. I started this diet after reading Aajonus Vonderplanitz's book, but now I think his claims regarding nearly zero risk of issues with bacteria, parasites, and food poisoning are irresponsibly dangerous and bogus.
I think parasites and other food poisoning issues may be why humans started cooking our meat in the first place.
So how is it that other primates eat raw meat safely? A number of primate species eat raw meat with no problems.
For that matter, thousands of other species are omnivorous, and eat lots of raw meat without problems. Occasionally they may pick up a parasite, but parasites are rarely an issue with saltwater fish, or with grassfed/pastured meats.
Dude, the Japanese have been eating raw meat and fish for centuries. Dozens of members of this forum have been eating raw meat/fish for many years. You probably are just having some problems with food combining, or eating too much at one time, or drinking too much water after you eat, etc.. There are a number of things that can cause loose stools and digestion issues.
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From what I've heard, wild animals are quite often infected with various parasites.
I don't combine foods and nothing changed in my diet to start all this. I was feeling great, gaining weight, and then I just started getting diarrhea...
All of my symptoms (weight loss, diarrhea, nausea) are symptoms of parasite(tapeworm) infection and/or food poisoning. Not to mention I saw worms in my stool...
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Guys, my body shuts down if I eat cooked meat.
Doesn't matter how organic the meat is, if it's cooked Ill be in pain. I can suffer for days from one serving of cooked meat.
I am very weak in the digestive system, so I basically use my body as a testing ground.
Raw meat can not be matched. It is the holy grail of health.
If you're getting worms and whatnot, find better sources.
I even ate 100% raw meat for a few months, nothing else,
my health only improved. Dramatically.
If parasites are inevitable with raw meat, I will gladly take them on.
But so far I can only report a crazy detox and remarkable results.
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So when you cook the exact same meat that you are eating raw and don't change anything else in your diet there is a significant difference? Because that's what I've been toying with to try and see if it was the raw or whether it was the quality of the meat and mono meals and lots of fruit, etc., and so far I cannot tell a difference between cooking and eating raw besides getting diarrhea when eating raw now...
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Hey guys I got about 4 pounds of raw fresh wild salmon from whole foods. The fish there was whole except it was degutted and deheaded. They filleted it for me and I got a good price, that's why I got 4 pounds worth as they were only selling the entire fish.
So I ate it and got abdominal discomfort. Then the following day I cut some more but intuitively guessed there could be worms. So I cut it up very well but couldn't find any. I kept looking and then I found some. Then I marinated a few pieces in lemon juice to see if that did anything and found some more. All in all I only inspected about 1 pounds worth, as I already had eaten 2 pounds (and consequently gotten a stomach ache) and I didn't inspect the last one ( I just steamed it becasue I didn't want to throw it away)
yes, it's an old thread... maybe i read this wrong? but if i sat down and ate 2lbs of fish in one day, i'd get a stomach ache, too... -v
(love this smilie!)
i think the best rule is to be confident in what you're buying. i have had zero (known) issues with raw anything, whether frozen or fresh. accepting the fact that anything you consume can have adverse effects, should bring a little peace of mind... i've heard the majority of salmonella cases come from vegetables, not chicken or meats... that said, you are at a "risk" for contracting anything, from anywhere... no doubt you have eaten things unknowingly, and relied on your body or immune system to take care of abnormalities (or maybe more normal than you wish to admit). i started eating raw, expecting to get sick... so every day, i am pleasantly surprised... i no longer eat foods, being fearful of consuming wormy "friends". every meal preparation is a time of eager anticipation for ingesting something delicious... squirmy garnish, or not.
if people worried as much about the quality of the air they breath, we'd all stop breathing.
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So when you cook the exact same meat that you are eating raw and don't change anything else in your diet there is a significant difference? Because that's what I've been toying with to try and see if it was the raw or whether it was the quality of the meat and mono meals and lots of fruit, etc., and so far I cannot tell a difference between cooking and eating raw besides getting diarrhea when eating raw now...
Yes, the exact same thing.
I literally had negative quality of life for over 2 years since I was in a car accident.
I only went deeper and deeper into depression with no sign of getting better.
Every meal I ate worsened me, but I was so skinny I knew I had to eat.
I was out in BC, (fresh wild organic food), and my health only got worse.
Then I decided to just do it, just start listening to people on this forum.
Instant results.
I was hooked.
I had originally planned on transitioning gradually to raw paleo, but within 4 days eating that way I had quickly progressed to 100% raw paleo.
The cooked meat would literally set me back so much that I couldn't justify eating any of it anymore.
I have tried cooked meat one or two times since then, the results remain the same.
bad.
If the meat has parasites and worms in it naturally, then I'd say my body needs them.
I'd say it loves them.
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It is now however many days later and no health complaints at all, let alone anything worm related. Wish you all could see this photo of the monkfish they had sitting in the seafood case next to the meat, the lady at the counter joked that it hadn't evolved in a few million years, I thought she was quite right =)
Score one more for the concept that parasites might not be the boogymen we have been led to believe, make your own experiments and conclusions though, you have to live with your choices!
JK, remembered how to attach photos from drive...enjoy!
I would like to add that this fish was sourced out of the atlantic and chances are good it came from polluted waters, so that it had so many (there were lots) worms points to a less than stellar environment...
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bharminder
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Re: Worms in my fresh, raw, wild salmon from whole foods--a short video showing them
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2010, 11:21:50 am »
Quote
At what point should I consider a piece of fish to be unacceptable? 1 worm, 2 worms, 3 worms?
REPLY:
I found NINE Anisakis worms in my recent piece of middle cut Cod. When these were removed, under bright sunlight, it tasted great, and some of it went on to become high fish which tasted even greater, LOL. Absolutely no stomach pains or discomfort afterwards, and confidence that any which got through, while surviving all our stomach acids due to their own protective coating, would die eventually and be expelled.
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I'm actually switching from raw paleo to cooked paleo because of similar issues (http://"http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/health/tapeworm-other-food-poisoning/msg109227").
I passed some worms that I think were tapeworms and I've been getting diarrhea from a wide variety of meats and eggs. I started this diet after reading Aajonus Vonderplanitz's book, but now I think his claims regarding nearly zero risk of issues with bacteria, parasites, and food poisoning are irresponsibly dangerous and bogus.
I think parasites and other food poisoning issues may be why humans started cooking our meat in the first place.
you got rid of the worms?
i think the problem is only with raw meat! raw eggs, milk and dairy is ok IMO. no worms in there
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Guys, my body shuts down if I eat cooked meat.
Doesn't matter how organic the meat is, if it's cooked Ill be in pain. I can suffer for days from one serving of cooked meat.
I am very weak in the digestive system, so I basically use my body as a testing ground.
Raw meat can not be matched. It is the holy grail of health.
If you're getting worms and whatnot, find better sources.
I even ate 100% raw meat for a few months, nothing else,
my health only improved. Dramatically.
If parasites are inevitable with raw meat, I will gladly take them on.
But so far I can only report a crazy detox and remarkable results.
how much raw meat were u eating per day? you did not eat anything else, just raw meat?
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These worms belong to fish and cannot survive indefinitely in your body. Anisakis survive stomach acid and can burrow into the stomach lining where they die after a few days or a week or two as they cannot enjoy our flesh. They can be painful, as I have found with Cod where they are fairly common, once found nine, took them out and eat the fish without problems. Candling the fish with bright light can reveal the coiled up critters so they can be removed before being eaten. Very unpleasant while it lasts, but generally self curing if you have an unfortunate encounter with these horrors.
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Im not meaning for this to get personal, sometimes my raw passion gets misconstrued as impertinence, this is not my intent. Yet all civility aside there is an obtuse attitude in many of these interchanges of which I do find offensive to my sensibilities. It is provoked when other people claim that my own personal experience is somehow not valid or worthy of consideration without being backed up by an authoritative citation.
I have attempted to contact people with "proper credentials" and have attempted to communicate many of my own experiences to anyone who will listen only to be snubbed by those who are quick to dismiss ideas that do not fit their own preconceived views. I will be the first to say that Raw meat based diets may not be for everyone, there are trade offs to cooking and many people do fine on cooked diets, I am not a foodist fascist by any means, and am a totally libertarian about allowing people personal choice to live how they chose ,but regardless of this difference of ideals I will insist that there is a great cultural bias and general misunderstanding into the nature of these subjects which is preventing people from being able to make well informed dietary "dissensions".
If I may continue with the subject of cookings effect on bio-availability. There is this preconceived notion that breaking down the proteins by cooking which allows for quicker assimilation, is a positive thing without drawback. I would like to draw attention to a few contentions to this assumption. Raw fats and proteins are "suppose" to take longer to digest and assimilate, carnivores in nature will eat large portions of flesh and then not have to eat again for long periods of time. The body slowly breaks down the food and absorbs its nutrition over time to give a slow and steady supply of energy. When you consume cooked proteins and carbs that are already partially broken down they are assimilated far to quickly for the metabolic and filtration systems of the body to optimally cope with. This leads to glucose spikes in the case of refined carbs, and protein spikes in cooked meats. These protein spikes, high AGE levels, heat degraded EPA/DHA and a myriad of other contamination from aberrant agricultural practices, are what is to blame for all the bad press meat based diets have received from the establishment. For the average healthy individual these negative effects can be coped with to a certain degree, and also are mitigated by a number of modern practices of processing, as well as eating smaller portions many times a day.....but not everyone is the same and many people who do become overloaded with AGEs, or experience high blood sugars, or elevated triglycerides may benefit greatly from eating uncooked and unrefined foods which are absorbed much slower and do not cause as drastic spike in blood glucose, AGE proteins or Deranged fats.
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My 2 year old eats a little red meat and marrow as well as oysters and drinks eggs AV style, she is beautiful and thriving, my 8 month old is eating pea sized chunks of meat and fat along with my homemade formula and she is a complete butterball(they are the hardyest healthyest children I know, no exaggeration)
What is your homemade Formula for kids?
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[noae]
Im not meaning for this to get personal, sometimes my raw passion gets misconstrued as impertinence, this is not my intent. Yet all civility aside there is an obtuse attitude in many of these interchanges of which I do find offensive to my sensibilities. It is provoked when other people claim that my own personal experience is somehow not valid or worthy of consideration without being backed up by an authoritative citation.
I have attempted to contact people with "proper credentials" and have attempted to communicate many of my own experiences to anyone who will listen only to be snubbed by those who are quick to dismiss ideas that do not fit their own preconceived views. I will be the first to say that Raw meat based diets may not be for everyone, there are trade offs to cooking and many people do fine on cooked diets, I am not a foodist fascist by any means, and am a totally libertarian about allowing people personal choice to live how they chose ,but regardless of this difference of ideals I will insist that there is a great cultural bias and general misunderstanding into the nature of these subjects which is preventing people from being able to make well informed dietary "dissensions".
If I may continue with the subject of cookings effect on bio-availability. There is this preconceived notion that breaking down the proteins by cooking which allows for quicker assimilation, is a positive thing without drawback. I would like to draw attention to a few contentions to this assumption. Raw fats and proteins are "suppose" to take longer to digest and assimilate, carnivores in nature will eat large portions of flesh and then not have to eat again for long periods of time. The body slowly breaks down the food and absorbs its nutrition over time to give a slow and steady supply of energy. When you consume cooked proteins and carbs that are already partially broken down they are assimilated far to quickly for the metabolic and filtration systems of the body to optimally cope with. This leads to glucose spikes in the case of refined carbs, and protein spikes in cooked meats. These protein spikes, high AGE levels, heat degraded EPA/DHA and a myriad of other contamination from aberrant agricultural practices, are what is to blame for all the bad press meat based diets have received from the establishment. For the average healthy individual these negative effects can be coped with to a certain degree, and also are mitigated by a number of modern practices of processing, as well as eating smaller portions many times a day.....but not everyone is the same and many people who do become overloaded with AGEs, or experience high blood sugars, or elevated triglycerides may benefit greatly from eating uncooked and unrefined foods which are absorbed much slower and do not cause as drastic spike in blood glucose, AGE proteins or Deranged fats.
Currently, I'm fascinated by what appears as a success from the scores of people doing well on John McDougle's starch food plan. He eliminates all oil, nuts, seeds, animal anything and processed anything, and simply suggests starches, cooked. The part that fascinates me is the back and forth 'war' between pro fats, and pro carbs. Each camp slashing at the other side. One side saying it's the fat, the other saying it's the carbs or sugars. And it appears each is correct when either eats fats with carbs. The logic being that when eating carbs and insulin is produced, that insulin will quickly pack away any fat included in the meal, thus leading to the associated problems with the typical blames for fat. McDougle claims there is no insulin resistance built up with our cells when no fat is eaten, as he claims it's the fat we eat that fills the cell and cause insulin resistance. Thus his patients can eat all the carbs they want, seemingly, and no problems with fat being accumulated or diabetes. One has to wonder how it is that he claims that type two diabetes can be cured by simply eating starch.
On a keto or low carb diet, when generous amounts of carbs are eaten then one is kicked out of ketosis, and insulin is produced, fat burning as fuel is stopped, and the body puts away the fat eaten as stored triglycerides. These fats stored, have been described as the non fluffy small dense particles, not the preferred ones. This is said to be due to insulin. This wouldn't occur if the carbs eaten had not spiked insulin and thus initiated the storage process.
Thus it appears each camp maybe correct: when fat is eaten with carbs to any great extent. Glycation or fats sticking to sugar is also another resultant when the two are eaten together. The great push in the 40's and 50's towards packaged carbs also happened at the same time when veg. oils were pushed and used also. Thus that combo again, fats and carbs.
Obviously, as a raw foodist for 44 years, I can't see myself eating cooked starches as my diet, but there have been many societies that have thrived on just that (think rice and beans eating peoples,,etc. )
If anyone has come across literature going into this concept, please pass it along, as I'd love to learn more.
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Hmm. It seems I accidentally posted an argument I was having with a belligerent, extremely anti raw biased pro cooking nutritionist to this thread..... often while surfing through the web I use the forum threads as a place to draft out my messages for other message boards.
As for homemade formulas, I think it should be custom tailored to the individual child. Nursing from healthy human breast would be best in most cases, but if not possible homemade mixtures of raw milk and well blended animal foods can be used. When the mother of my children dried out prematurely I used a blend of goats milk and raw eggs to supplement.
As for my recommendation for the best raw infant formula, one has to be cautious. I wouldn't recommend that anyone attempt to fully feed a newborn infant on homemade formulas unless part time breast feeding isn't an option. I can only speak from the experience of using home made raw milk based formula as a supplement to breast feeding....
If attempting to feed an infant without any breast milk it may be necessary to use some kind of quality brand formula in part with raw milk and blended animal foods to insure that there wont be deficiency.
Perhaps if one would grind up all the organs glands and marrow and blend it with raw eggs and raw goats milk it would provide the full spectrum of nutrition needed...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xudsY0E0bVI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xudsY0E0bVI)
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Im not meaning for this to get personal, sometimes my raw passion gets misconstrued as impertinence, this is not my intent. Yet all civility aside there is an obtuse attitude in many of these interchanges of which I do find offensive to my sensibilities. It is provoked when other people claim that my own personal experience is somehow not valid or worthy of consideration without being backed up by an authoritative citation.
I have attempted to contact people with "proper credentials" and have attempted to communicate many of my own experiences to anyone who will listen only to be snubbed by those who are quick to dismiss ideas that do not fit their own preconceived views. I will be the first to say that Raw meat based diets may not be for everyone, there are trade offs to cooking and many people do fine on cooked diets, I am not a foodist fascist by any means, and am a totally libertarian about allowing people personal choice to live how they chose ,but regardless of this difference of ideals I will insist that there is a great cultural bias and general misunderstanding into the nature of these subjects which is preventing people from being able to make well informed dietary "dissensions".
If I may continue with the subject of cookings effect on bio-availability. There is this preconceived notion that breaking down the proteins by cooking which allows for quicker assimilation, is a positive thing without drawback. I would like to draw attention to a few contentions to this assumption. Raw fats and proteins are "suppose" to take longer to digest and assimilate, carnivores in nature will eat large portions of flesh and then not have to eat again for long periods of time. The body slowly breaks down the food and absorbs its nutrition over time to give a slow and steady supply of energy. When you consume cooked proteins and carbs that are already partially broken down they are assimilated far to quickly for the metabolic and filtration systems of the body to optimally cope with. This leads to glucose spikes in the case of refined carbs, and protein spikes in cooked meats. These protein spikes, high AGE levels, heat degraded EPA/DHA and a myriad of other contamination from aberrant agricultural practices, are what is to blame for all the bad press meat based diets have received from the establishment. For the average healthy individual these negative effects can be coped with to a certain degree, and also are mitigated by a number of modern practices of processing, as well as eating smaller portions many times a day.....but not everyone is the same and many people who do become overloaded with AGEs, or experience high blood sugars, or elevated triglycerides may benefit greatly from eating uncooked and unrefined foods which are absorbed much slower and do not cause as drastic spike in blood glucose, AGE proteins or Deranged fats.
i thought raw animal foods are broken down faster and easier... somebody told me he eats raw meat, butter and mil during long workouts and it gives him lots of endurance/energy, saying that raw animal food digests super fast and easy