Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: risrosen on November 20, 2010, 12:43:21 am
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Several people on here have suggested high meat to my newbie self for my desperately bad digestion. I was going to dive right in, but then I read this post:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/primal-diet/severe-digestion-problem-and-diarrhea/
So I'm wondering, have there been other reports of problems with high meat on here? How risky is it?
I'm particularly concerned because I am without a spleen (I was born without one...no, wait...it was removed several years ago when a bullet happened to go through it). Which apparently increases the risk of immune system problems, though I haven't experienced any yet.
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It takes 5-6 weeks to get anything really decent. all you got is minutes of your day to lose while you see if you respond better to the raw meats and eggs and things. if you are worried about immune stuff, i wouldn't be eating a mixed diet right now as indicated on other threads. While more or less safe (as in death causing), the high meat thing is not something to just mess around with or implement into any old diet routine. Even raw meats/eggs can cause problems for people this way, particulary with compromised systems. I've got the reactions sungazer describes coinciding with eating non 'high' chicken, eggs, oysters and yeah high meats. Who knows if they were the cause but I believe these are all strong stuff to the body. Healing is usually as much about removing problems as it is to implementing drastic substitutes.
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you might be interested to read sungazer's other thread: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/health/severe-diarrhea/ (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/health/severe-diarrhea/)
she claims to have recovered and sees it as a detox. but take that with a grain of salt.
i can tell you that i have never had an issue with high meat. i've made it from beef, chicken, and fish. no problems. and i got some digestive benefits
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That is pretty rare. The above is pretty much the only one I can recall. Other than that, I have heard of 1 woman complaining that she felt so wired with energy that she couldn't fall asleep but she solved that by not eating high-meat in the evenings or late at night.
The main thing is to make high-meat from healthy, grassfed meats. Using grainfed chicken like in the above link is a no-no. Remember our RVAF diet credo:- "it is the environment that is the key, not the pathogen."
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One more question about high meat. Someone said it's not usually introduced into a rp diet for quite a while. Is that for physical reasons or psychological (the ick factor)?
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One more question about high meat. Someone said it's not usually introduced into a rp diet for quite a while. Is that for physical reasons or psychological (the ick factor)?
This is solely because RVAF diet newbies usually need c.8-12 months in order to get used to eating raw, fresh raw meats. High-meat is considered more difficult to get used to than raw, fresh meats, so it is advised to be taken at a later stage.
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So has anyone had any major negative effects from high meat that caused serious concerns?
because from my own experience it is without drawback. I had some lose movments the first couple of times I took it but I felt great afterward and now I eat a piece of completely rotted meat and have no stomach issues whatsoever, I do get some bad breath if I chew it any but I can usually bolt down a piece and chase it with a sip of water to avoid yuck mouth.
I have been impatient in waiting the full month for my beef highmeat to mature and my supperhigh lamb was about out so I mixed some fresh beef in with the old lamb and let it set out of the fridge airing three times a day and within two weeks it was wonderfully high and I once again have a good batch. Some of my beef batch's that are kept in the fridge stay kind of pasty and don't get strong enough for my liking. Even with all my reckless experimentation I have yet to be food poisoned on this diet, so to me it seems perfectly safe and effective medicine for people who have issues that nothing else seems to resolve.
I jumped right into high meat about the second month into the diet. It seemed to help me keep my up my apatite for raw meat and allowed for faster digestion and increased overall well being/energy.
I also had immune system issues and got food poisoning about three times a year on cooked foods.
I experienced gut pain after every meal, after my initial mono infection my spleen enlarged and my pancrease became inflamed liver became conjested, and for years I would have flare ups of gut pain, joint pain and constant sickness that would never go away completely. Within weeks of giving up all grains, vegtables, legumes,dairy, cooked foods,etc. and replaced it with a raw low carb paleo foods I found the relief I was looking for.
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So I'm wondering, have there been other reports of problems with high meat on here? How risky is it?
I'm particularly concerned because I am without a spleen (I was born without one...no, wait...it was removed several years ago when a bullet happened to go through it). Which apparently increases the risk of immune system problems, though I haven't experienced any yet.
We consumed high meat within 1.5 months of starting on the raw diet with no problems. I noticed no real effect (except for a very small mood change) from it but then again we only consume small marble sized pieces. I tried larger amounts but had a hard time getting it down.
My understanding from Aajonus V. is that the bacteria in HM actually helps the digestive and immune system.
Have you noticed a predisposition for any particular illnesses?
From Wackipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spleen
"A 28-year follow-up of 740 veterans of World War II who had their spleen removed on the battlefield found that those who had been splenectomised showed a significant excess of mortality from pneumonia (6 from an expected 1.3) and a significant excess of mortality from ischaemic heart disease (4.1 from an expected 3) but not from other conditions"
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Eating high meat for a bad digestion is like hitting your head with a hammer to stop a headache.
In all lifestyle philosophies like this forum there will be weird extremest fanatics like the ones who promote eating rotting meat by bolting it down so you don't gag. There is no telling how many people they have killed because dead people don't make posts.
Please trust you senses. If it stinks and tastes bad, for goodness sake don't eat it.
If you have digestion problems learn about probiotic and symbiotic nutrition. Rotting meat has potential deadly pathogens. There are ways to age and tenderize meat safely that improve its taste, smell, and nutritional value.
Enjoy the ride.
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I take no issue with being labled a weird fanatic, because I can see from the standard view of things ,what I do may seem insane, and I don't mind too much, Just remember that this is a raw paleo forrum and most people here assume that our ancestors scavenged and ate at least some rotten meat and had no issues with bacterial poisoning. People who come here are often desperate and I take the view that desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't wish to see anyone suffer because of bad advice, but I don't advise anything I haven't done myself and I am satisfied with the results I have had. So I may be bold and arrogant, but I am honest in what I believe and post here. You are free to believe and post differences. I believe in the power of the forrum to find a middle ground between the extremes of the individual members, and for the discerning newbie the decision on which path they should take will be made easier because of the experiences of the differing extremes
Eating high meat for a bad digestion is like hitting your head with a hammer to stop a headache
I beg to differ sir, If anyone dies here because of eattin high meat while following all the safety protocol and only eatting marble sized amounts then I would be the first to want to know because I eat it regularly, and concider it a health tonic. Rotten meat is just as safe to eat as rotten milk and far more safe than rotten grain(aka alcohol) High meat boast my mood without the hangover of alcohol and the constipation of cheese.
I have had digestive trouble and dairy based pro-biotics did nothing for me and from my own research I believe they are ineffective for the most part in correcting any serious digestive issues including yeast overgrowths and lactose intolerance's, they may make some milk products bearable for some with boarderline intolerance's, but for people who are truly damaged and are going to go paleo I suggest that all conventional pro-biotics are a waste of money and that high meat can offer the greater benefits paleo dieters seek.
That being said I am all for using your own judgment and am not suggesting that anyone gorge themselves on rotten meat before testing their own reactions. I do believe that someone who is a month or more into a raw paleo diet can begin to try aged meats and if they cause no adverse effects then they can try marble size pieces of high meat. Then IF there are no negative effects or the positive effects are mild they can chose to eat more or less of it based on their inclinations.
The reason some of us make extra fowl high meat and force it down is because of convenience and not taste, to get the stronger effects of high meat you would have to eat a whole stake that has been aged for weeks or you can do what I do and boltdown some extra primordial festering slimy high meat that is so potent with biologically active compounds that it overwhelms the taste buds, and then eat some really tasty fresh meat and fat right afterward, I have been doing this for 8 months and swear by it. It gives me great energy and vitality. The strong taste lets me know its good medicine.
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Aging meat in an anaerobic conditions is not good, as there may develop Clostridium botulinum, which is very unhealthy.
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Eating high meat for a bad digestion is like hitting your head with a hammer to stop a headache.
In all lifestyle philosophies like this forum there will be weird extremest fanatics like the ones who promote eating rotting meat by bolting it down so you don't gag. There is no telling how many people they have killed because dead people don't make posts.
Please trust you senses. If it stinks and tastes bad, for goodness sake don't eat it.
If you have digestion problems learn about probiotic and symbiotic nutrition. Rotting meat has potential deadly pathogens. There are ways to age and tenderize meat safely that improve its taste, smell, and nutritional value.
Enjoy the ride.
Like sabertooth, I very strongly disagree with the above. High-meat is one of those raw foods that people virtually never complain about. The sole problem is the environment, not the bacteria as such. If one remembers to air the high-meat and uses grassfed meat, not grainfed, then that covers almost all issues. I suppose someone just transitioning should, ideally, wait a bit before trying high-meat, but in some cases, people are so desperate for a quick cure, high-meat might even be OK for a newbie.
As for taste/instincts, these can be easily warped. In pre-RPD days, I would love the taste of dairy, but had to find out the hard way that it ruined my health.
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Have you noticed a predisposition for any particular illnesses?
From Wackipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spleen
"A 28-year follow-up of 740 veterans of World War II who had their spleen removed on the battlefield found that those who had been splenectomised showed a significant excess of mortality from pneumonia (6 from an expected 1.3) and a significant excess of mortality from ischaemic heart disease (4.1 from an expected 3) but not from other conditions"
No, I rarely get sick, and nothing worse than colds or maybe mild flu that don't last long. Of course I've been told by doctors that I should be immunized, though I don't listen to them.
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Please trust you senses. If it stinks and tastes bad, for goodness sake don't eat it.
Yes, of course! Would an animal or a pithecanthropus eat something that stinks for him?
As for taste/instincts, these can be easily warped. In pre-RPD days, I would love the taste of dairy, but had to find out the hard way that it ruined my health.
I love the taste of pastry, chocolate, cheese, butter, kefir, grilled meat and so on. Those things are not paleo, our ancestor had no regular access to such stuff, and hence there’s is of course no reason why our senses of smell and taste (instinct) would work properly with stuff that has never been available to any animal before the very recent (at the scale of the evolution) Neolithic era.
Etienne glycol (used in anti freeze) is the perfect example: it tastes sweet but is poisonous. Candy and pastries (and Neolithic food in general) go along the very same way: they are noxious, but as they don’t kill you in the near term their noxiousness is not immediately obvious and they remain accepted in standard diets.
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Eating high meat for a bad digestion is like hitting your head with a hammer to stop a headache.
In all lifestyle philosophies like this forum there will be weird extremest fanatics like the ones who promote eating rotting meat by bolting it down so you don't gag. There is no telling how many people they have killed because dead people don't make posts.
Please trust you senses. If it stinks and tastes bad, for goodness sake don't eat it.
If you have digestion problems learn about probiotic and symbiotic nutrition. Rotting meat has potential deadly pathogens. There are ways to age and tenderize meat safely that improve its taste, smell, and nutritional value.
Enjoy the ride.
Hi Donrad,
Saying dead men don't make posts is an interesting statement. You could very well be accurate.
We have eaten HM many times with not the slightest issue. Drinking alcohol, taking antibiotics and any one of the numerous dishes that people have eaten down through the ages has not resulted in what you are suggesting.
If high meat is prepared with the cover being taken off periodically to allow oxygen in then it shouldn't be an issue.
Even though dead men don't make posts, I suspect that if any raw eaters died from what you are suggesting, it would be all over the news/internet faster than you can say salmonella.
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...It gives me great energy and vitality. The strong taste lets me know its good medicine.
If its medicine (and it really is because people don't eat for the taste -v ) then why would you need to take it if you are on a optimum raw paleo diet?
Yes, of course! Would an animal or a pithecanthropus eat something that stinks for him?
I love the taste of pastry, chocolate, cheese, butter, kefir, grilled meat and so on. Those things are not paleo, our ancestor had no regular access to such stuff, and hence there’s is of course no reason why our senses of smell and taste (instinct) would work properly with stuff that has never been available to any animal before the very recent (at the scale of the evolution) Neolithic era.
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...yes, and rotten meat (I don't mean aged I mean the smelly slimy one)...does not taste good to people, even on raw paleo you have to eat it in tiny pieces and bolt it and eat fresh meat after...why? If its truly good shouldn't you be able to enjoy a meal of it like a meal of berries, or a meal of meat or liver?
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I think its ok to eat aged meat all the time as long as it tastes good to you and you can eat it without having to bolt-or-gag,
however I believe eating really putrid meat should be only if you have a real problem, and if you have to force youself to eat it on a constant basis maybe your diet is lacking something?
Remember paleo people ate high meat sometimes for the same reason they cannibalized, out of desperation/when there was nothing else they could eat. We have more of a choice of what to eat which is not a bad thing sometimes.
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The whole point is that high-meat has stuff that fresh, raw meat of the highest quality can never have, namely huge amounts of bacteria which help boost serotonin in the brain, making you feel great, improving concentration and mood, and improving the digestion as well. It is the rawpalaeo equivalent of heroin, but without any of the negative effects such as withdrawal symptoms.
Also, high-meat is merely a question of habit re taste. If I had eaten high-meat from birth, I would now like 100s of different kinds of high-meat. After almost a decade, I now actually love the taste of 1 or 2 kinds of high-meat as they taste very much like an aged, smelly raw cheese(and I dare not touch real raw cheese given my raw-dairy-issues).
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In all lifestyle philosophies like this forum there will be weird extremest fanatics like the ones who promote eating rotting meat by bolting it down so you don't gag. There is no telling how many people they have killed because dead people don't make posts.
Enjoy the ride.
actionhereo seemed to disappear after his high meat undertaking...I think maybe just his dad got mad or something though...
Well I already gave somewhat of a disclaimer in regards to those newly on the diet or just in general that I can see the potential for HM to cause at least some uncomfortable symptoms if not serious problems. People have indeed got sick or died just eating fresh meat, so I can only guess it is not 100% safe.
So let me say I am pretty much am in line with sabertooth otherwise. I mean..I seemed to have made 0 progress on this diet until I started doing high meats aged over 2 months. After 3 months the taste even if bolting (usually i chewed a bit) was indescribable and volatile like eating acid as opposed to something just gross. I never experienced much of the emotional well being stuff but I think it helped alot with general digestion and assimilation and bowel function. If i had it together to make it consistently, I would probably do it although going on something I think TD implied once ..i've taken a break from it and finally just started another batch after 5 months or so. So I shall see in a few months if it has greater advantages to just my regular routine at a higher place in health.
when people talk about letting their meat 'get high' in the fridge or closet or something..I dunno to me this is just so totally different, even though I guess there is some advantages to this kind of aging. As for poor smell or taste indicating something being 'high'..well..particularly if I have store meat in plastic that expires..this is not either tasty or healthy. To me, my opinion is iif there is something I air out regularly for 6 weeks not being particulary high..the odds of randomly happening upon something that is high without trying is unlikely. In this case odds are if you arn't consciously engaging in this protocol and your meat stinks or tastes bad then its no good.
I don't tend to ascribe to the pleasure principle anyway and in very much a believer in little tricks and detoxes and stuff, so I guess take that into consideration.
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Couple of points:- Many people , myself included, seem to need to eat quite large amounts of high-meat to get the full boost in mood etc. I needed 2 large mouthfuls of high-meat each day to get really booosted to the max.
I disagree re the raw meats/poisoning issues. In almost all such cases, they involve babies or old people with immune-systems already damaged beyond repair by decades on cooked diets. If one is 100 percent raw, and has been doing rawpalaeo for at least a few weeks with grassfed meats etc., then it should not be aa problem.
As for the point KD mentioned re me, I think it was re my point about high-meat only benefitting me for a few months after taking it every day. I usually take a break of a few months inbetween, so as to get the same benefit again when I try high-meat the next time.
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High meat works in mysterious ways, It gives me a feeling of clarity and well being unlike anything else.
I believe it primes the gut for optimal meat digestion, and I believe the larger your intake of meat the more you can benefit from high meat. Our digestive tract is very adaptable, but after years on grain rich, plant based diet the digestive tract can become inflexible to the change needed to adapt back to our evolutionary dietary roots. The genetic code expression has had to make radical changes to be able to tolerate neolithic food. The healing of damaged and sick tissues and glands isn't all that has to happen for healing on this diet to take place. I believe that epigenetic changes take place which allow the body to program and direct such a drastic metamorphosis in ones being. High meat can be seen as a catalyst for this adaption.
I hypothesis that the substances in rotten meat may trigger a chain reaction, beginning in the immune system and tramsmuted on down to the genetic level, with some undiscovered mechanism stimulating the genetic re-adaption back to a more carnivorous metabolism . And it may be necessary to introduce high meats in order to jumpstart this process of re adaption, especially in people with past gut problems, antibiotic survivors, alcoholic,etc. When I started eatting High meat two months into the diet, I found that it increased my appetite and improved my metabolism.
Caution should be used in people who are more severely damage, and it may be that there is a rare individual has lost the capability to digest large amounts of fat, or is geneticaly damaged beyond repair, I know such people are out there, But for the vast majority of those who Begin this paleo diet High Meat should be recommended as an option for attaining optimal health.
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by increase metabolism is this higher or lower?
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Has anyone actually studied high meat to determine what happens?
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Has anyone actually studied high meat to determine what happens?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/66840.php
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Excellent, thanks Tyler.
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How do we know that those particular bacteria are in high meat? It would be fascinating to look at it under a microscope and to see exactly what bacteria are present.
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How do we know that those particular bacteria are in high meat? It would be fascinating to look at it under a microscope and to see exactly what bacteria are present.
I don't think it matters. The bacteria all seem to have some beneficial effect on the brain, given anecdotal reports re high-meat and this soil-bacteria study.
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My research indicates that early humans had large brains, were fit and strong, and because they learned how to make tools and hunting implements they had easy pickings of plentiful game animals. The animals were free to roam on lush grasslands and went where the weather was good so they were fat and plentiful. There was also abundant seafood and bird flocks so large they blackened the sky. We were so successful that we soon spread throughout the earth. It was not until we recently became civilized and domesticated plants and animals that things got tough because of overpopulation and depletion of the environment.
There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that early humans were scavengers and had to eat rotting meat. If that was the case rotting meat would not smell, look, and taste bad to us. We would have evolved more like vultures and dogs who enjoy it.
I think we were living in a Garden of Eden, not a sewer.
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There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that early humans were scavengers and had to eat rotting meat. If that was the case rotting meat would not smell, look, and taste bad to us. We would have evolved more like vultures and dogs who enjoy it.
I think we were living in a Garden of Eden, not a sewer.
It is believed that in between our brains becoming larger - and prior to being able to use developed tools for hunting - that humans were one of the first species ever to 'look up' and comprehend that vultures were circling around easily acquired food. Ages of feasting on the decomposing flesh and bones led to larger brain size and hence more efficient tools that were later used for hunting. I agree this is not the same as high meats as people are experimenting with here - as that is largely a process invented by aajonus - however it in turn is modeled after other HGs who do in fact long ferment meats in formats akin to curing, but also just flat out buried in an animal stomach or in the ground for long periods of time.
Anyway, regardless of that who cares. Virtually everyone ( that lives :) ) has positive testimonials with high meat. for me this includes people I know personally. More importantly, most of these testimonials include effects that would never happen with fresh or aged meats, so it becomes sort of a non issue how frequently rotting meat was consumed by perfectly healthy people in some garden of eden. If I was forced to live in a sewer, I would probably do my best to clean it up.
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We all live in the celestial sewer, even in old Kentucky there is high levels of mold and biologicaly harmfull garbage. Through history we have had to fight against other life forms for our own survival. In that struggle we formed a symbiosis with the soil bacteria that lived in the dirt that our food generated off of. The symbiotic nature of our evolutonary development make bacteria a crucial element for human life, without bacteria the mold and fungus would eat us alive. The particular symbiosis that happens with the use of highmeat could be a type of reactivation of an old and long repressedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_%28biology%29Mutualistic relationship that was a part of our evolution and embedded deep within the life structures within us. The bacterial high we get from high meat might be a way for our DNA to reward us for fulfilling some type of genetic craving for the benefits that the bacteria provide. The boast in serotonin that happens with high meat may be just as beneficial as the boast we get with exposure to sun light. People can live without exposure to sunlight as they can live without exposure to earth bacteria, but they will not be in optimal health.
The new theory I have been toying with involves viewing high meat Not as a probiotic but a symbiotic, a substance that enhances life force. Through our evolution our genes have been shaped by the interactions with of these symbiotic organisms that live in us as well as around us and high meat works with this principle to restore this life force in those with the genetic need for it.
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The new theory I have been toying with involves viewing high meat Not as a probiotic but a symbiotic, a substance that enhances life force. Through our evolution our genes have been shaped by the interactions with of these symbiotic organisms that live in us as well as around us and high meat works with this principle to restore this life force in those with the genetic need for it.
Interesting. Perhaps you've heard of symbiotic rawfoodists, raw vegans who claim that the key to good health is the accumulation of 3-5 lbs. of aerobic bacteria in the body.
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Does high-meat only provide temporary 'benefits'?
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My research indicates that early humans had large brains, were fit and strong, and because they learned how to make tools and hunting implements they had easy pickings of plentiful game animals. The animals were free to roam on lush grasslands and went where the weather was good so they were fat and plentiful. There was also abundant seafood and bird flocks so large they blackened the sky. We were so successful that we soon spread throughout the earth. It was not until we recently became civilized and domesticated plants and animals that things got tough because of overpopulation and depletion of the environment.
There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that early humans were scavengers and had to eat rotting meat. If that was the case rotting meat would not smell, look, and taste bad to us. We would have evolved more like vultures and dogs who enjoy it.
I think we were living in a Garden of Eden, not a sewer.
The only reason rotting meat smells and tastes foul to us is because of ingrained habits based on cooked food diets. In a way, this makes sense:- everything is now so sanitised and bacteria-free, that a cooked-food-dieter has a high chance of things going wrong with his system if he introduces just a little in the way of bacteria, as his immune-system etc. is so fouled up.
While aged cooked foods are potentially a real disaster due to the combination of bacteria and unhealthy meats, high-meat is perfectly safe.As for the scavenger theory, it makes more sense. Humans, like other animals were opportunists and also faced frequent periods of famine, especially during winter or very severe weather etc., so they would not have solely focused on fresh, raw meats. Another point is that, without refrigeration, they would have been forced to allow some raw meats to age for a few days, when facing famine etc.
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Does high-meat only provide temporary 'benefits'?
I was merely mentioning my own experience. I suspect that somehow, in my own case, the immune-system got eventually used to the bacteria so no longer got the usual reaction that boosts dopamine levels in the brain when excess levels of bacteria enter the body. Took months to occur, and after periods of no high-meat, the effect came back when I tried high-meat again.
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I was merely mentioning my own experience. I suspect that somehow, in my own case, the immune-system got eventually used to the bacteria so no longer got the usual reaction that boosts dopamine levels in the brain when excess levels of bacteria enter the body. Took months to occur, and after periods of no high-meat, the effect came back when I tried high-meat again.
I wonder if high meat bacterial elements are only needed in finite quantities and once you have reached the optimal levels that your biology requires then the serotonin boost fades out a little because you have reached the limits of its benefits. I have noticed that high meat does lose its dramatic effects if eatten every day , that's why I will go a few days without and cater the amount I consume based roughly on what my biochemical needs are. There might be differing needs between individuals regarding who gets the maximum benefits from high meat. Some people may already have a Good gut ecology that produces the serotonin boasting substances within the body and there is little need to supplement, while others may have had past imbalances or have been altered by the use of antibiotic drugs or years of poor nutrition, these are the people who could benefit most from high meats effects, although I believe it can be a general tonic for anyone who embarks on this paleo way of living
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There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that early humans were scavengers and had to eat rotting meat.
Have you read this article - http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/sdef/ANT3428/readings_spring_2008/Scavenging_diet_Blumenschine_1987.pdf ?
If that was the case rotting meat would not smell, look, and taste bad to us. We would have evolved more like vultures and dogs who enjoy it.
I really really enjoy when it's aged to some degree - I feel so addicted to eat it.
The one-week-old lamb hearts or tongues are 100 times better than fresh ones.
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Have you read this article
I didn't read it yet, but it says 'early hominid', not 'early humans' from what I saw.
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it says 'early hominid', not 'early humans' from what I saw.
That's true.
But still a valuable piece of work IMHO.
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My research indicates that early humans had large brains, were fit and strong, and because they learned how to make tools and hunting implements they had easy pickings of plentiful game animals. The animals were free to roam on lush grasslands and went where the weather was good so they were fat and plentiful. There was also abundant seafood and bird flocks so large they blackened the sky. We were so successful that we soon spread throughout the earth. It was not until we recently became civilized and domesticated plants and animals that things got tough because of overpopulation and depletion of the environment.
There is absolutely no evidence that I have found that early humans were scavengers and had to eat rotting meat. If that was the case rotting meat would not smell, look, and taste bad to us. We would have evolved more like vultures and dogs who enjoy it.
I think we were living in a Garden of Eden, not a sewer.
While your thoughts are eloquent and inspiring the experience of a heck of a lot of people is that HM works.
My friend from Tibet tells me that when he lived there in a very remote area, they would kill an animal for food but the meat got tastier the older it got and when it turned blue it was primo. Personally I think that ultimately ditching the fridge is the answer.
Interestingly nothing in nature is superfluous, even sewage. Properly treated (by leaving it in a heap till it "cooks") it is "the" primo of fertilizers. When trees fall thy make excellent fertilizer. The modern version of putting all sewage together into pipes is the problem, not the sewage.
My theory is that you may be confusing the "germ theory" of disease for the "germ fact" of disease. Prior to reading Aajonus Vonderplanitz I was a partial believer in the "germ fact", now I am a 100% non-believer.
Ayurveda clearly says that germs do not a disease cause. Eating the wrong stuff for you is the cause. (along with some other reasons)
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There are more bacteria in a healthy human digestive system than there are cells in the whole body. If we have been eating the right foods these are beneficial bacteria and yeasts that help us digest our food and provide us with vitamins and enzymes necessary for survival. If these bacteria are destroyed because we don't eat live foods, take antibiotics, or drink excessive amounts of alcohol. The white film on the surface of organic fruit is beneficial bacteria. Cabbage plants have a lot of the good bacteria which quickly multiply to make sauerkraut. Raw milk from grassfed cows has good bacteria which will turn the milk to yoghurt if left at room temperature.
Unfortunately bad bacteria do exhist. They produce toxic substances that can make people sick and even die. Those who are most at risk are young children, the eldery, and people with comprimised immune systems like the person who started this discussion. A strong person with good nutrition and healthy digestive flaura would probably have temporary digestive distress and soon recover stronger than before. Humans have good immune systems that can learn, adapt and build defences.
If we lived somewhere where there were no tourists and we hunted animals in the local environment and we butchered them ouselves we probably would not get sick even if the meat was infected. However in our modern society the meat we acquire is raised anywhere in the world, under who know what kind of filthy conditions, butchered in possibly filthy disease ridden processing factories, and cut and handeled many times by possibly diseased people. There is a hugh risk here if we let the meat rot with whatever it got from wherever. Kind of like Russian roulette.
Our ancestors learned this lesson a long long time ago and took steps to control the spoilage of their meat. They used salting, drying, cooling, smoking, and by introducing lots of good bacteria before the bad ones can get established.
You may benefit from consuming high meat. Your neighbor may end up in the hospital. We constantly hear about meat recalls that are causing death and disease. Please use caution. I personally avoid rotted meat and get my good bacteria and yeast from home-made raw milk yoghurt and home-made fermented garden vegetables and vinegar at every meal.
Best of luck to you and have a happy raw Thanksgiving.
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donrad, just curioius, what makes you think home made fermented veggies are any less dangerous than home made fermented meat?
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There is a hugh risk here if we let the meat rot with whatever it got from wherever. Kind of like Russian roulette.
Our ancestors learned this lesson a long long time ago and took steps to control the spoilage of their meat. They used salting, drying, cooling, smoking, and by introducing lots of good bacteria before the bad ones can get established.
You may benefit from consuming high meat. Your neighbor may end up in the hospital. We constantly hear about meat recalls that are causing death and disease. Please use caution. I personally avoid rotted meat and get my good bacteria and yeast from home-made raw milk yoghurt and home-made fermented garden vegetables and vinegar at every meal.
hmm, I think what you are saying here is a bit different from the previous and more agreeable (I guess). Sure, maybe these things provide adequate health for you and perhaps could be safe 'alternatives' for everyone. I'm definitely in the camp that you are perhaps even right about the Russian roulette depending on ones process or state of health, although I think you are over-exaggerating.
The point still remains that some people might need this kind of process and glean not so much from sauerkraut or fermented milk. I eat some of these foods myself and consider them to be kind of light-years away in effects. I'm sure someone will come by and rip you a 'paleo' new one anyway...but that is my viewpoint from the experience of eating of all these things...
I think you are glossing over something by saying it is unnecessary..which one can apply to just about anything in raw eating. How necessary is it to eat testicles or brains or bone marrow? how beneficial is it? Traditional peoples also prepared high meats separate than the processes you mention, and they didn't even has as many health concerns like you speak so that ultimately makes it more valuable today because the meat is worse quality as well as individual health. Also I think also some people know where their meat comes from and don't believe it matters much if 'diseased' people touch it.
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Donrad,
OK, now you have clarified your thoughts. I agree that factory produced animals are bad news. That's why in any discussion here of high meat, the words; organic and grass-fed are always used or if they are left out they are implied.
I have eaten grain finished beef and grocery store crap but that was in the beginning. MY HM is organic and grass-fed or wild caught. The raspberries that I am eating are questionable because they are "too perfect" but I eat them anyways.
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My fermented vegetables are less dangerous than high meat because I control the fermentation with salt, temperature, and the introduction of beneficial bacteria starter. Anything that gets stinky or slimy gets composted. Everyone I have given some of my kimchi to gives it back to me, except for Koreans. I have a Germanic heritage and love kraut. Most people think it stinks. I drink the juice. One man's ceiling is another man's floor.
I can remember reading about comparable lengths of intestines in relation to adapted nutrition. A dog or wolf intestine is short and they have a very acidic stomach. Anything they eat get zapped with acid and is soon expelled. Humans have a very long intestine and is a very hospitable environment for bacteria growth. Vultures head's are bald so they can stick their heads in a rotting carcass and it does not stay with them.
It may be an evolutionary thing as to why high meat stinks and tastes bad to most people. Our ancestors who avoided it were more likely to have children who survived than those ate it and fed it to their kids. In evolutionary terms even a 2% advantage over a million years adds up. However I concede that is may be highly beneficial to individual people.
Not all snakes are bad, some are beneficial. But if you live in a jungle and are afraid of snakes you are more likely to survive.
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This is a quotation from the book "Food Enzymes for Health and Longevity": "Fish are put into a hole and covered with grass and earth and the mass is allowed to ferment and decay. I learned, to my utter astonishment , they would eat those rotten poisonous foods and thrive on them. Lest the reader might think that the cooking process would destroy the poisons in their vitiated foods, I wish to say that in only a few instances did they cook their food. The usual customary method was to devour it raw." Written by Garber who lived a number of years among the Eskimos in northern Alaska.
Food for thought.
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I was curious as to the percentage of raw paleos that use High meat. Are there any successful low carbers who fare well without the use of any aged meats. I want to know how necessary aged meat is for people who eat low carbs as I do., I have been eatting aged meats and high meat throughout my diet and I feel a craving for aged meats. Its gives me a dog mouth feeling and I have experience the greatest improvement in health imaginable though I am not sure to what degree I should give credit to rotten meat as AV had done. I don't even get an upset stomach no matter how much I eat, were as before I was ill everytime I ate anything. I have been told my mouth can give off a strong smell on my highmeat days, I love the whole experience and believe that my bacteria laden digestive juices gives me an improved ability to digest meats and especially eggs.
If I eat egg yolks with high meat I get a great boast of energy, but egg yolks on their own are not to appealing. I have my own chickens and can only stomach pasture eggs. Most eggs I have bought at the store are bitter and I cant stomach them, I do urge caution for newbies not to go out and get store bought eggs and eat rotten meat while washing it down with a yolk, but I was curious if any veterans have noticed how eggs digest better when eatting aged meats or high meat.
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Unfortunately bad bacteria do exhist. They produce toxic substances that can make people sick and even die.
Yeah, Clostridium botulinum for example. But it only develops in an anaerobic conditions so it's not an issue, 'cause we always say that airing of the meat is very important.
Besides, do you know that LDL is protective against bacterial toxins? Staphylococcus aureus alpha toxin for example. Dr Sucharit Bhakdi and others have done researches about this issue.
And selenium, zinc? They also neutralize some toxins.
So the good nutrtion enables you to deal with them.
Moreover the balance between the good bacteria and bad ones is crucial.
Thera are trillions of good bacteria in an aged good quality meat and their potency is Brobdingnagian. :)
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I have found that all things digest better when one eats high-meat at the same time, or just before; even cooked foods. As for high-meat usage, I unfortunately only started using it once my health-problems were more or less solved. I wish I hasd tried it earlier, but I'd been scared. I did use slightly-aged raw meats in the early stages, though, and they were vital as my teeth and digestive system were seriously fouled up at the time.