Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Health => Topic started by: Dima on January 26, 2011, 02:28:53 am
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I have found and read all existing forum posts on the subject. I am starting a new topic to get the new/current opinions and experiences from forum members.
I have had a mild form of depression for a long time - it was a fact of daily life and I was able to be functional on day-to-day basis. The depression has gotten worse in the last few months, to the point where I am beginning to consider taking medication for it. Being "out of it" makes it very difficult to stay on a diet, avoid stress, make lifestyle changes, etc. I would like to hear the suggestions and/or experiences of those who were able to alleviate depressive symptoms through RPD. Thanks.
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"High Meat" works for relieving depression:-
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/display-your-culinary-creations/high-meat-recipe-preparation-for-more-advanced-rafers/
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depression is strictly psychological so you should focus on that if you want to really fix it.
there is no diet of any kind that cures depression. some foods may provide some help but it does not fix the root cause.
depression is cured by changing habits, environment, and working towards achieving something.
one of my friends was severely depressed and stressed, being in late 30s, single, no education, no job, feeling miserable, no goals in life, complete apathy. on top of that he had chronic GI issues like diarrhea and stomach pains.
so then he met a girl, moved in together, got married, went back to school, trying to start a family. the result - depression and stress all gone, all health issues are gone.
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depression is strictly psychological so you should focus on that if you want to really fix it.
Ys, with all due respect, you should be careful with claims like this as mental health including depression is a very complex subject and there are countless number of people who have cured themselves through diet alone thus proving that it is not just psychological.
T
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While I agree with Busgrw, I do not intend to start a debate on the causes of depression. I just want to know what worked for people in terms of changing the diet.
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depression is strictly psychological so you should focus on that if you want to really fix it.
there is no diet of any kind that cures depression. some foods may provide some help but it does not fix the root cause.
depression is cured by changing habits, environment, and working towards achieving something.
one of my friends was severely depressed and stressed, being in late 30s, single, no education, no job, feeling miserable, no goals in life, complete apathy. on top of that he had chronic GI issues like diarrhea and stomach pains.
so then he met a girl, moved in together, got married, went back to school, trying to start a family. the result - depression and stress all gone, all health issues are gone.
Ys, with all due respect, you should be careful with claims like this as mental health including depression is a very complex subject and there are countless number of people who have cured themselves through diet alone thus proving that it is not just psychological.
T
I tend to find in health forums...and even increasingly in the health field...emphasis is placed too much on the physical and the psychological (or life-stuff) is ignored. That said, personally I've found based on extensive research that the underlying element of depression and anxiety is very much grounded in physical stuff/toxins etc...with everything else in life somehow picking at that foundation. Each tool from life or lifestyle/diet can help repair it.
I believe people can overcome even the most physical traumas with just basic life-stuff/positivity etc...so its no mystery one can get better exclusively that way too (as compared to people who relied heavily on diet), but if that was the case I would argue pretty heavily hat the person probably didn't have actual 'depression' which is far different then even drastic feelings of unfulfillment. Plenty of people even commit suicide from sadness/awful events/lack of acceptance that don't actually even have depression as its defined clinically. Depression is basically the state where your actual thoughts and energy are distorted into some spiral, where often good things are absent entirely as feelings or solutions out of it.
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Ys, with all due respect, you should be careful with claims like this as mental health including depression is a very complex subject and there are countless number of people who have cured themselves through diet alone thus proving that it is not just psychological.
i'm not claiming anything, i'm simply stating the definition of depression which is a psychiatric disorder. you said it yourself depression is part of mental health.
i am not disputing that some people have cured themselves through diet, changing diet is part of changing habits.
one should look at the causes of depression and eliminate those causes, either by diet, or new hobby, or new girlfriend/boyfriend, or whatever.
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While I agree with Busgrw, I do not intend to start a debate on the causes of depression. I just want to know what worked for people in terms of changing the diet.
healthy raw fat, stable blood sugar etc...meditation, relaxation, joyful passions or hobbies, tons of sleep
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healthy raw fat, stable blood sugar etc...meditation, relaxation, joyful passions or hobbies, tons of sleep
I would 100% agree with KD here but can only vouch for anxiety as haven't suffered from depression (although like physical illness, I believe a lot of mental illnesses are linked). I suffer from anxiety and only when I moved on to raw fats, meats etc and cut my high sugar intake down to very low carb did I start to feel a lot better.
Where I think I can improve much more and this is where I believe ys is coming from is what KD says in relation to meditation, relaxation and tons of sleep. Once these are firmly in place as part of my lifestyle I believe my health will improve a lot further and eventually I will find myself cured.
So, although i'm not an expert Dima, I would suggest all of the above as synergistically, diet and working on changing your psychological habits through meditation and relation and tons of sleep could/ should do you wonders. Whether or not you might need medication to help you along this path initially is something only you can answer.
Ys, apologies if I misread your post.
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I agree that for some people meditation, self-hypnosis or whatever might help on their own. Not for me though: for some years prior to going rawpalaeo I had anxiety and tried everything from self-hypnosis to homeopathy to autogenic training etc. to get rid of it. They had only very temporary effects, though, with the condition not really improving, only some symptoms for a limited period.
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I would suggest a law carb diet, but not zero-carb (maybe about 40 grams?) - I personally suffered from aggravated depression / lack of energy during my 6 months zero-carb experiment. The symptoms pretty much disappeared when I added 1 to 2 fruits a day. On the other hand, upping carbs higher produced symptoms of anxiety / sugar drops - and subsequent depression, again. Maybe, 1 to 2 fruits a day would be an ideal amount of carbs to keep blood sugar levels stable which would help with hypoglycemia-induced depression?
Another thing which was already mentioned is "high meat". However, I do not make my own high meat since I find the smell really disgusting and revolting and cannot put it in my mouth. My alternative to high meat is century eggs (those are black aged raw duck eggs that you can find really cheap in any Asian market). I strive to eat several of those eggs a week. I chop them, deep in Tamari and eat as an appetizer. Just don't smell them, or you won't be able to eat them! The taste is actually pretty tolerable. Another alternative to high meat is really aged, "smelly" raw milk cheeses - a delicacy! I eat quite a lot of those (just don't do it in an office! ;D).
Hopefully this is helpful.
FoxWoman
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"Another thing which was already mentioned is "high meat". However, I do not make my own high meat since I find the smell really disgusting and revolting and cannot put it in my mouth. "
I think it was raw al who came up with adding Raw Honey while fermenting meat. That's how I managed not to throw up the first time. ;)
"Being "out of it" makes it very difficult to stay on a diet, avoid stress, make lifestyle changes, etc. I would like to hear the suggestions and/or experiences of those who were able to alleviate depressive symptoms through RPD. Thanks."
I still don't eat enough of it, but when I do, high meat disposes of that crippling sensation immediately. So perhaps a diet of all high meat would cure depression?
I think my problem is low testosterone so I've been taking raw testicles, adrenal and pituitary glands, but in pill form because I can't find them anywhere else yet. Thats been boosting my energy levels slightly and I've been able to be more productive than usual. I'm sure fresh raw glands would do me loads of good.
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I would suggest a law carb diet, but not zero-carb (maybe about 40 grams?) - I personally suffered from aggravated depression / lack of energy during my 6 months zero-carb experiment. The symptoms pretty much disappeared when I added 1 to 2 fruits a day. On the other hand, upping carbs higher produced symptoms of anxiety / sugar drops - and subsequent depression, again. Maybe, 1 to 2 fruits a day would be an ideal amount of carbs to keep blood sugar levels stable which would help with hypoglycemia-induced depression?
Another thing which was already mentioned is "high meat". However, I do not make my own high meat since I find the smell really disgusting and revolting and cannot put it in my mouth. My alternative to high meat is century eggs (those are black aged raw duck eggs that you can find really cheap in any Asian market). I strive to eat several of those eggs a week. I chop them, deep in Tamari and eat as an appetizer. Just don't smell them, or you won't be able to eat them! The taste is actually pretty tolerable. Another alternative to high meat is really aged, "smelly" raw milk cheeses - a delicacy! I eat quite a lot of those (just don't do it in an office! ;D).
Hopefully this is helpful.
FoxWoman
Thanks for your reply, FoxWoman. I do not think that century eggs from the supermarket are a similar product to high meat. I have eaten lots of those eggs without any observable effects. It is my understanding that nowadays the century eggs are made using an accelerated aging techniques and are not a true fermented product.
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Thanks for your reply, FoxWoman. I do not think that century eggs from the supermarket are a similar product to high meat. I have eaten lots of those eggs without any observable effects. It is my understanding that nowadays the century eggs are made using an accelerated aging techniques and are not a true fermented product.
I agree. When I read some of the recipes for century eggs, I also saw references to using boiled eggs rather than raw eggs plus extras which were not suitable.
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A brief update on my situation...
I've made a number of lifestyle changes which reduced my stress level significantly. Also, I've been eating mostly raw and somewhat low-carb. Sleep is slowly improving. Anxiety is nearly gone but the depression comes and goes. At any rate, there are improvements on both fronts. I have to agree with previous poster about the role of diet in curing depression. I think diet plays a significant but a small role. Other things like setting and pursuing goals, having an active social life, being productive are the decisive factors.
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Diet is 100% at the side of tackling depression, food sensitives removed, and low carb (dont go 0 you may react badly and get fatigued or emotional).
But also if you've been genitally cut, it has a psychological impact because it's very traumatic even if you forget it, I sourced my anxiety and depression disorder from it: http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goldman1/
The best way for me to deal with depression is to let it out, have a good cry, don't hold it in makes it worse, talk it out, write it out in a general, get some exercise sometimes, lots of sun everyday, hours worth, laugh, socialize, etc. But yeah that's the source of it if you have been.
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Thanks for the article Techydude. I'm going to read it and rub it in the faces of my circumcised friends who argue that the foreskin serves no function and removing it has all sorts of benefits. -d Luckily I grew up in a place where circumsition was not a common practice.
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Thanks for the article Techydude. I'm going to read it and rub it in the faces of my circumcised friends who argue that the foreskin serves no function and removing it has all sorts of benefits. -d Luckily I grew up in a place where circumsition was not a common practice.
Same here. XD
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Same here. XD
You can also check out The Whole Network and Intact America (google it) and Circumstitions as well as San Francisco bans Circumcision. Don't wanna post the link here in respect for the site but you can google and find the intactivist sites. Also there's Foregen and foreskin restoration via tlctugger etc to take back your body and regain more sensation. Google it . It helps with my depression to know at least I have the choice now. At least now I can take charge of my own body and decide what I want or dont want to do with my body - dietwise and restoration.
I've seen a therapist about my depression as a result of trauma from circ but most of them humor me on and dont believe me so now im looking for an intactivist therapist and in the meantime doing EFT Therapy via Patricia Robinette (google it), self help, healing, raw paleo, yoga, writing in a journal, and not ignoring my feelings or pains or emotions or depression but experiencing it and delving into it deeply to release it instead of repressing it and holding it on. A healer is their own healer. But still looking for a good therapist for my trauma who will listen to my genital cutting trauma with my sources -
inflict that much pain to a baby on such a sensitive part and at such a developmental stage when a baby feels ten times more and people don't expect there to be trauma and psychological affects and depression etc? If only all the men and women who it was done to knew they were traumatized and affected someway: http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goldman1/
I wish you the best in your healing journey and try EFT therapy and Patricia Robinette, etc(google it) everyone, it gives me hope.
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Techydude, there's something I want to recommend in terms of self-help resources. I've read all sorts of self-help literature over several years. So far only two pieces stood out:
1) http://www.untamedlife.com
Many of the author's ideas are hard to take, but he's right on the money. Very paleo too :)
2) http://www.amazon.com/Radical-Honesty-Transform-Telling-Truth/dp/0440507545
This book's only downfall is that much of it is presented with a new age "feel"...otherwise its pretty solid.
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Techydude, there's something I want to recommend in terms of self-help resources. I've read all sorts of self-help literature over several years. So far only two pieces stood out:
1) http://www.untamedlife.com
Many of the author's ideas are hard to take, but he's right on the money. Very paleo too :)
2) http://www.amazon.com/Radical-Honesty-Transform-Telling-Truth/dp/0440507545
This book's only downfall is that much of it is presented with a new age "feel"...otherwise its pretty solid.
Untamed life and the truth one sound interesting. My life is about getting to the truth no matter how much pain and denial I have to go through. That's how I became a RPDer and an Intactivist for Genital Integrity of Males and Females. I just wanna heal myself just like Patricia Robinette , victim of Female genital cutting and depression and anxiety from the trauma whereas FGM was common in the US prior to 1997 where she became an intactivist for genital integrity of males and females and dedicated her life to healing and EFT and became a raw vegan(sucks maybe she'll join raw paleo one day). She made the book Rape of Innocence on male and female genital cutting in the US and healing: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/187841111X/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1878411047&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1GW5GQMYCQD9SQ36TPWF
I guess dedicating my life to health, healing, wholeness, intactivism, activism, finding the truth, foreskin restoration, and etc really improves my life but I will always have anxiety disorder(bad especially socially) and chronic depression disorder from the cutting trauma at birth, but hope to see it improve via low carb paleo, getting rid of food sensitives, and reading books like you recommended me, more therapy, and healing. Hope this info helps the OP too.
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Untamed life and the truth one sound interesting. My life is about getting to the truth no matter how much pain and denial I have to go through. That's how I became a RPDer and an Intactivist for Genital Integrity of Males and Females. I just wanna heal myself just like Patricia Robinette , victim of Female genital cutting and depression and anxiety from the trauma whereas FGM was common in the US prior to 1997 where she became an intactivist for genital integrity of males and females and dedicated her life to healing and EFT and became a raw vegan(sucks maybe she'll join raw paleo one day). She made the book Rape of Innocence on male and female genital cutting in the US and healing: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/187841111X/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1878411047&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1GW5GQMYCQD9SQ36TPWF
I guess dedicating my life to health, healing, wholeness, intactivism, activism, finding the truth, foreskin restoration, and etc really improves my life but I will always have anxiety disorder(bad especially socially) and chronic depression disorder from the cutting trauma at birth, but hope to see it improve via low carb paleo, getting rid of food sensitives, and reading books like you recommended me, more therapy, and healing. Hope this info helps the OP too.
I've learned that are no such things as ALWAYS or NEVER. I had a limiting mindset when I was young and also thought: "I could never do that, I could never be that." Bullshit! I have become and have done things that I have never dreamed of as a kid! I am writing this in my own thread on depression, so my work is not done (is it ever?) but at this point in life I have proven to myself that I don't have to settle for any personal or circumstantial limitations. Anything can be overcome. Techydude, I hope that in time you can leave your limiting mindset behind and get well on the way to reaching the goals.
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I'll try to open my mind to that =)
Also has anyone noticed an improvement in their depression as well as anxiety on raw paleo diet?
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I'll try to open my mind to that =)
Also has anyone noticed an improvement in their depression as well as anxiety on raw paleo diet?
Many of us have, myself included. High-meat also helps a lot in this regard.
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Many of us have, myself included. High-meat also helps a lot in this regard.
Well that's true. Some people say depression is linked to bad digestion from bacteria loss/low bacteria, and just low bacteria all in all or low in the gut ie depleted from stress and antibiotics, etc. As well as maybe H.pylori.
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Enid the Christian method ur selling will it get rid of my dandruff next time I get depressed?
The use of fresh lime juice is very useful remedy for the treatment of dandruff. Take one lime, and take out its juice in a small utensil. Now you may apply this juice over your hair will help of your fore finger and middle finger. This remedy will not only help to remove dandruff out of your hair, but will also help to make your hair glowing.
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Depression is not strictly psychological.
Diet plays quite an important role. As far as diet goes I would suggest not doing ZC, and make sure you are getting the essential vitamins. Avoid/limit sugar in most of its forms at costs. Stay away from processed food. (Things most people on the forum do already but anywho...)
Otherwise:
* When you feel ready, work with a physician to wean off the medications.
* Watch comedy shows and or movies and things that make you laugh everyday.
* You have to stop waiting for "your calling" in life to be revealed to you. Opportunity doesn't seek you. YOU seek it. This means that you have to set your own goal for yourself and go after it. This realization was the biggest turning point for me in the past. DO whatever it takes to accomplish that goal. Start small, then gradually work big. You will gain confidence, and with that comes hope for the future. Without hope for a better future, depression will seem never ending.
Dima, hoping for the best for you. If you feel the need to discuss anything, feel free to PM me.
Regards,
Ray
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I have found and read all existing forum posts on the subject. I am starting a new topic to get the new/current opinions and experiences from forum members.
I have had a mild form of depression for a long time - it was a fact of daily life and I was able to be functional on day-to-day basis. The depression has gotten worse in the last few months, to the point where I am beginning to consider taking medication for it. Being "out of it" makes it very difficult to stay on a diet, avoid stress, make lifestyle changes, etc. I would like to hear the suggestions and/or experiences of those who were able to alleviate depressive symptoms through RPD. Thanks.
depression is a result of rationality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias
depression can essentially be described as a "failure to be stupid"
as far as i can tell an average person devotes about 90% of his mental energy to deliberately turning himself into an idiot. my parents do this. religious people do this. most people do this.
i would do it too if there was a guarantee that:
1 - i could successfully turn myself into a moron and STAY that way forever
2 - that i could actually survive it
but i don't think i could manage either of the two.
thanks to the information revolution we now know more than we were ever supposed to. our minds cannot handle what we know. we're fucked.
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I don't agree that its a failure to have an optimal bias.
For example, a person depressed can be thinking that people around them are focusing on their weakness or "defect" (whatever that may be) when in reality, no one is doing that. People are too busy with their own lives. So in this case, the depressed person is viewing the world with the distorted reality, not the other way around.
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real depression is realizing that the only difference between yourself and a cockroach is that a cockroach is lucky enough to be oblivious to the reality of the world, and the only thing you ultimately have to look forward to is death.
usually we manage to be distracted from this truth by day-to-day bullshit like video games, work, sex, food, exercise etc, but sometimes we have too much time on our hands and we begin to think and understand things ...
the problem is that once you understand and become depressed then you don't want to do anything and then you have even more time to think ! so it is a vicious circle ...
the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the depressed get more depressed ...
when all else fails people have kids as the ultimate distraction from reality, thus passing on the disease to the next generation. and that's how the world turns.
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I fought against the specters of human ignorance most of my childhood, and yes its very depressing to be possessed by certain knowledge so young, especially if one is not shown how to use it constructively . I grew up without a purpose and much of my potential was squandered in trivial pursuits.
But I still blame a serotonin issue, caused by toxicity and malnutrition as the primary cause of my personal depression, although my failure to be stupid may have made the imbalance worse. The distortion of reality comes when a biological imbalance is not reckoned with in a rational way and then the brain is allowed to blindly guess what is wrong through its own delusions, and such a mind will focus on locating the defects within the self, when in reality there is something biological at work, outside of the conscious mind that can never be dealt with by developing a neurotic rational to explain ones perceived failings.
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Sometimes I wish that someone would beat my head with a baseball bat until I can't critically think anymore. Probably the number one thing that negatively affects my health is news websites. I wish I can be ignorant of it all, yet I still keep coming back to them. Bad emotional health can lead to or accelerate many physical conditions.
Music, video games, and fantasy media are my shelter. It helps me get away from the real world temporarily so my sanity can remain intact. :D
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A significant mood-booster has been lying on the sunbed during winter. I usually get winter depression, but not any more. Nowadays you can probably aquire Vitamin D from the sun, lying outside between 10 AM-2PM. Also, following a paleo diet, I have less mood swings and a slight boost in baseline mood, but I suppose you aren't wolfing down pastries if you hang around this forum anyway.
You could try extinguishing lights at six PM. This helps normalize the circadian rhythm, which is extremely important for mental wellbeing, as much as anything that has been mentioned above. I also recommend this from personal experience.
But as the second poster reported, the psychological factors shouldn't be underplayed. My happiest time was as a high-achieving semi-anorectic calorie-restriction eater. You should definitely lay down the groundwork for your own wellbeing, but you can't delay take-off indefinitely and spend all your time preparing (for happiness). Conventional stuff like challenging yourself, being true to yourself, working hard, meaningful relationships are most important. If you do these things its def. possible to be happy even on a SAD diet, but maybe not as easy? I don't know.
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Sometimes I wish that someone would beat my head with a baseball bat until I can't critically think anymore. Probably the number one thing that negatively affects my health is news websites. I wish I can be ignorant of it all, yet I still keep coming back to them.
oh you're only in the early stage - don't worry it will get worse. the news is nothing. realizing that it always was this way is not the worst either. even realizing that there is no solution is not the worst. the worst is realizing that you are part of the problem.
wait till you find yourself literally unable to physically move - then you will know what depression is. think full-body erectile dysfunction due to absolute zero motivation. just being asleep in a nightmare with your eyes open.
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oh you're only in the early stage - don't worry it will get worse. the news is nothing. realizing that it always was this way is not the worst either. even realizing that there is no solution is not the worst. the worst is realizing that you are part of the problem.
wait till you find yourself literally unable to physically move - then you will know what depression is. think full-body erectile dysfunction due to absolute zero motivation. just being asleep in a nightmare with your eyes open.
That will cheer him up for sure.... ???
I've dealt with depression. For me the realisation that I was depressed was also the cure. This probably sounds crazy but let me try to explain.
I felt very bad for some time, lack of motivation, energy etc. Suddenly I realised I was depressed. I don’t believe in therapy or that sort of stuff I think all that does is change/reshape the outer layer but does not attack the core problem. Eventually people undergoing therapy change the act they perform towards the rest of the world because it is easier to display social accepted behaviour. When long enough exposed to a certain social structure people change their behaviour to match, it’s in our nature. Also I am a convinced atheist. I know there is no-one watching me, judging. It’s just this live here and now, make the most of it.
I realised that I was depressed because somehow my subconscious mind thought it would be beneficial. I think it’s our instinctual heritage to display depression to get empathy. However in our current insane society this primal mechanism doesn’t dork anymore. People are to occupied with there job etc. In primal small group societies a member displaying depression would get more attention because it was vital to the group that all members were performing maximal, all members had specific functions within the group and no one could be missed. Ones I realised that it was just a survival mechanism to ask for help, and knew that I wasn’t gonna get that help, I wasn’t depressed anymore. I knew that this was the lowest point and it could only get better. Climb that mountain, reach the top don’t wait for others to carry you there it isn’t going to happening.
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That will cheer him up for sure.... ???
I've dealt with depression. For me the realisation that I was depressed was also the cure. This probably sounds crazy but let me try to explain.
I felt very bad for some time, lack of motivation, energy etc. Suddenly I realised I was depressed. I don’t believe in therapy or that sort of stuff I think all that does is change/reshape the outer layer but does not attack the core problem. Eventually people undergoing therapy change the act they perform towards the rest of the world because it is easier to display social accepted behaviour. When long enough exposed to a certain social structure people change their behaviour to match, it’s in our nature. Also I am a convinced atheist. I know there is no-one watching me, judging. It’s just this live here and now, make the most of it.
I realised that I was depressed because somehow my subconscious mind thought it would be beneficial. I think it’s our instinctual heritage to display depression to get empathy. However in our current insane society this primal mechanism doesn’t dork anymore. People are to occupied with there job etc. In primal small group societies a member displaying depression would get more attention because it was vital to the group that all members were performing maximal, all members had specific functions within the group and no one could be missed. Ones I realised that it was just a survival mechanism to ask for help, and knew that I wasn’t gonna get that help, I wasn’t depressed anymore. I knew that this was the lowest point and it could only get better. Climb that mountain, reach the top don’t wait for others to carry you there it isn’t going to happening.
Thank you. Much more encouraging. ;)
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So, I see a bunch of people saying "don't go zc for depression" except that's what has cured my depression. I say cured because it's almost 2 years and it hasn't come back. This depression started when I was about 8-9, and carved out my life like a river carves a canyon. I spent most of my teen and young adulthood being suicidal and when it got too bad I'd have psychotic episodes. So, I kept it medicated. Within about 3 months of going very very low carb-zc I was off antidepressants and am still a fully functioning, well respected professional.
When I worked in a supportive residential building for people with a)out of control addictions, b)out of control mental health issues, and c) had to have been homeless for at least a year (this was the criteria for getting in) we had high crisis in the building. All th time. Fights, psychotic breaks, overdoses, suicidality....
Then we finally got the funding for a kitchen. This kitchen served crap food once a day. Overcooked pasta with thin tomato and ground beef sauce, with anemic salad & jello. 911 calls went down to almost 0. Maybe once or twice in a month instead of 3-5 times a week. The drop happened in the first week of serving the food.
I wonder what would have happened to the residents if we could be serving quality, paleo food, lightly cooked or raw (they may not have complied with raw...). The difference was SO significant that it is almost impossible not so say food & mental health are inextricably linked. Between my experience and then those in this resident (other supportive housing agencies have replicated this with similar results now), I'm a believer man.
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So, I see a bunch of people saying "don't go zc for depression" except that's what has cured my depression. I say cured because it's almost 2 years and it hasn't come back. This depression started when I was about 8-9, and carved out my life like a river carves a canyon. I spent most of my teen and young adulthood being suicidal and when it got too bad I'd have psychotic episodes. So, I kept it medicated. Within about 3 months of going very very low carb-zc I was off antidepressants and am still a fully functioning, well respected professional.
Hi Babetteq,
Congratulations on being cured. Any chance you could share some info on what your diet is like on low carb-zc?
Thanks
;)
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real depression is realizing that the only difference between yourself and a cockroach is that a cockroach is lucky enough to be oblivious to the reality of the world, and the only thing you ultimately have to look forward to is death.
usually we manage to be distracted from this truth by day-to-day bullshit like video games, work, sex, food, exercise etc, but sometimes we have too much time on our hands and we begin to think and understand things ...
the problem is that once you understand and become depressed then you don't want to do anything and then you have even more time to think ! so it is a vicious circle ...
the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the depressed get more depressed ...
when all else fails people have kids as the ultimate distraction from reality, thus passing on the disease to the next generation. and that's how the world turns.
to me, you understand even less when you focus on death and "reality". Looking at cave paintings (and the few remaining modern HG populations) you get a sense that our ancestors didn't fear death like we do, not because they were ignorant or anything, but because they lived in the moment, and death was all around them. Now that we just sit on are ass all day, we're isolated from nature, we forget that birth and life in the moment are something to appreciate also. when you really ponder about death without being caught in the fear of non-existance, you realize its not that big of a deal. your just not around anymore, so what? why not just enjoy the time you do have? I think the "truth" your speaking of is a distraction as well.
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The distortion of reality comes when a biological imbalance is not reckoned with in a rational way and then the brain is allowed to blindly guess what is wrong through its own delusions, and such a mind will focus on locating the defects within the self, when in reality there is something biological at work, outside of the conscious mind that can never be dealt with by developing a neurotic rational to explain ones perceived failings.
This makes sense. I never thought about depression this way.
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That will cheer him up for sure.... ???
I've dealt with depression. For me the realisation that I was depressed was also the cure. This probably sounds crazy but let me try to explain.
I felt very bad for some time, lack of motivation, energy etc. Suddenly I realised I was depressed. I don’t believe in therapy or that sort of stuff I think all that does is change/reshape the outer layer but does not attack the core problem. Eventually people undergoing therapy change the act they perform towards the rest of the world because it is easier to display social accepted behaviour. When long enough exposed to a certain social structure people change their behaviour to match, it’s in our nature. Also I am a convinced atheist. I know there is no-one watching me, judging. It’s just this live here and now, make the most of it.
I realised that I was depressed because somehow my subconscious mind thought it would be beneficial. I think it’s our instinctual heritage to display depression to get empathy. However in our current insane society this primal mechanism doesn’t dork anymore. People are to occupied with there job etc. In primal small group societies a member displaying depression would get more attention because it was vital to the group that all members were performing maximal, all members had specific functions within the group and no one could be missed. Ones I realised that it was just a survival mechanism to ask for help, and knew that I wasn’t gonna get that help, I wasn’t depressed anymore. I knew that this was the lowest point and it could only get better. Climb that mountain, reach the top don’t wait for others to carry you there it isn’t going to happening.
Great post. I agree with the last part completely.
Dork on!
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Me too. Applies to things like anxiety etc. as well.
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Not only would people in primal societies who show distress and depression be given extra loving care, and empathy from others, but they would be less likely to let negative emotions build up over long periods of time because the issues would be dealt with in the present moments of communal living. When people genuinely care for your well being you can tell and just growing up and living your entire life in a place were you feel cared for would do a lot to prevent depression.
People in the modern world are often raised in broken homes and live in working class prison communities. Many don't get the antidepressant benefits of a caring community that makes one feel needed. Their life's troubles get no special attention. Often the others in these modern communities do notice that something isn't right, but they have often been neglected emotionally themselves and are not capable of providing the emotional support that is needed.
The Lord knows I felt very isolated and alone as a teenager living with only my mother step dad and brother and sister. There just wasn't any compassion to be gotten, no sympathy for my personal struggles.
Kids at school were cruel animals that would taunt you if you showed emotional weakness and the teachers were so overburdened with keeping up appearances that they could not provide the personal attention that young people need to feel accepted. I felt at times like my existence had no real value among others around me and no matter what I did it wouldn't matter much.
So I had to put on a front get over the fact that modern society can totally suck. Such people with negative feelings seem to be a burden to a modern society that has not the time, place, or need for emotion..
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Congratulations on being cured. Any chance you could share some info on what your diet is like on low carb-zc?
My rule is animal and seasoning. So I do mainly beef, game (deer, elk, moose, umm had cougar once or twice) some pork (because I"m not made of money) and less and less chicken as time goes on. I don't find I want it and when I eat it anyway it's unpleasant to me. I can't really describe it. I have an aversion to it. Seeing as there is no law about whether I can eat chicken or not, I choose not. I use whipping cream for yummy sauces, not raw, but often over raw things. I try to eat liver once a month. I hate it. I eat heart and kidney. It's pretty simple. I'm not making fancy ..I don't know, ... marsupial kiev with raw wild honey & cheese fermented in tibet before the war or anything. The offal I try to get into me once a month. I figure that's fine. It seems to be.
The change in mood happened very quickly. It was 3 months before I decided to try going off the meds because going off of them was scary for me. But when I did, by that time I felt SO much better I was pretty confident. If it was just placebo I would have cycled down by now. I know my depression.
In a conversation on another board we're talking about whether a lot of the mood, behavioural symptoms we see in the courts, downtowns and schools are more about deficiencies than kids not being spanked early enough or something.
Sabertooth, I too believe that we are not a kind culture to the people around us, or often our children and that plays a part in our depression. I think it can't be ignored though that women while they're pregnant (and before) and men when they're in their fertile years have been exposed to lots of horrid toxic chemicals that we're only guessing at the results from. I remember reading a study on girls born to moms who smoke cigarettes. A huge number of them (70+%?) developed depression at puberty. Nicotine fixed that depression. There is a piece of depression I think that is not all psychological.
Maybe one day we'll learn to be nicer to each other and kinder to the world we live in.
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the way i learned to deal with depression is by accepting:
1 - the utter pointlessness of my life, and therefore the fact that any problems i may have ahead of me in my life ultimately don't matter, because in the long run it's still just a matter of getting old and dying.
2 - the fact that i am nothing but a piece of shit, always was and always will be and i never deserved a life any better than the shit i got in the first place.
our ultimate fear is that of truth. once you accept the truth you have nothing left to fear.
we are born in total ignorance. in the first years of our life our parents stuff us with lies and pink illusions and we proceed with our own false hopes and dreams. then gradually as we come into contact with reality it begins to chip away at our castles in the sky and every time another dream of ours gets shot down we find ourselves on our knees crying ...
that is until you realize it was ALL just a dream - it was never real - there is nothing to lose because it was never there to begin with
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1) Writing in a journal
2) Screaming in a secluded place, feels good
3) Lots of sun
These help me, i'm clinically depressed.
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proteus u sound depressed
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the way i learned to deal with depression is by accepting:
1 - the utter pointlessness of my life, and therefore the fact that any problems i may have ahead of me in my life ultimately don't matter, because in the long run it's still just a matter of getting old and dying.
2 - the fact that i am nothing but a piece of shit, always was and always will be and i never deserved a life any better than the shit i got in the first place.
our ultimate fear is that of truth. once you accept the truth you have nothing left to fear.
we are born in total ignorance. in the first years of our life our parents stuff us with lies and pink illusions and we proceed with our own false hopes and dreams. then gradually as we come into contact with reality it begins to chip away at our castles in the sky and every time another dream of ours gets shot down we find ourselves on our knees crying ...
that is until you realize it was ALL just a dream - it was never real - there is nothing to lose because it was never there to begin with
My style is positive thinking.
The purpose of life is to make more life.
So I live in that direction, heal people, make new life, raise those cute little lives.
And since I do not believe in an immortal soul, my immortality is through my descendants.
Yes, sex has a purpose, to make more life.
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I don't know Proteus personally, but (language being part of the false illusion) I took a different read of what he wrote.
1 - the utter pointlessness of my life, and therefore the fact that any problems i may have ahead of me in my life ultimately don't matter, because in the long run it's still just a matter of getting old and dying.
"Don't sweat the small stuff; 100 years from now, it won't matter, anyway."
2 - the fact that i am nothing but a piece of shit, always was and always will be and i never deserved a life any better than the shit i got in the first place.
"Life is not fair, but it is just." Do not regret the shit; learn from it.
our ultimate fear is that of truth. once you accept the truth you have nothing left to fear.
"Know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
we are born in total ignorance. in the first years of our life our parents stuff us with lies and pink illusions and we proceed with our own false hopes and dreams. then gradually as we come into contact with reality it begins to chip away at our castles in the sky and every time another dream of ours gets shot down we find ourselves on our knees crying ...
that is until you realize it was ALL just a dream - it was never real - there is nothing to lose because it was never there to begin with
The key word is until... once one sees illusion as illusion, suffering is transcended.
JMHO
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Great post. I agree with the last part completely.
Dork on!
Agreed, I like that last part as well.
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Staying positive by yourself is good. But you need a family environment.
I need a family atmosphere to stay happy. I know most people try to avoid there family especially if your eating raw meat and have different life views etc. Or if you think your family is a little nuts or don't get along with them.
I would rather live in a big house with a bunch of people then live alone. My life is based around family, but society forces it to be based around a career and many distractions. It's very strange. Big companies aren't helping. Working 8 hours a day prob won't improve your family relationships.
I feel depressed thinking about my family situation. I have family in Jordan and family here. Where to live? Fly back and forth every year, it just isn't a option. If I live in Jordan, my mom is getting old, I will miss my nephews growing up. If I live here, same situation. But just on my father's side. On top of that I don't have a job. I just have to stay positive and figure something out.
Edit: Life is not easy for some, but eating unhealthy or being negative definitely won't make it easier.
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I think the main thing I can remember about depression is that there is a FEELING not a thought or belief...but a feeling that things can only stay the same or get worse - that there is no way out. People can sit there and list all your accomplishments and good qualities and potentials on the horizon and these things are like mirages and everything is quicksand. The thing is - life IS meaningful and there is some purpose for everyone, at least a small purpose where people can express their creativity and originality and just plain enjoy who they are.
positive thinking can often be challenging or impossible in some states but its important to remember/believe at least one positive thing which is that things do have the incredible capacity to get better.
Particularly for younger people. I mean...being young and smart and under-appreciated with no place to go plain sucks. Even with shittier things in my life/lack of good things I think I've gotten happier and more content with myself every year.
Without depression you can still get glum, lonely, nervous and angry at the world/self etc...but the best part about tackling depression is you become better equipped to deal with these things that everyone has to deal with in some way. its that self consciousness which is the reward but many times its the instigator. If its some kind of consciousness or awareness that causes you to hate the world or yourself and feel stifled or whatever than it IS about tuning down that awareness, being selfish enough to give yourself happiness.
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i agree wholeheartedly with kd :D
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Very well put KD, many good points.
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Some people find solace in the painful realizations of life's misfortunes and can even make fun of otherwise hopelessly sad situations.
I think I read Dostoevsky claim "Sometimes you have to laugh to keep from crying"
Sometimes, when I feel like a situation is giving me unnecessary grief then I will cry out the opening line to "I am man of constant sorrow". It annoys the hell out of my wife but it makes me feel better every time.
In constant sorrow for all my days.
And there is always the hee haw classic to help one crack a smile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1okb5EIo1nw
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I don't follow what all this depression talk is about.
But when I discovered raw paleo diet worked wonders for me I felt like I won the lottery of life and found the fountain of youth!
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Is depression common in the Phillipines?
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Is depression common in the Phillipines?
I don't know.
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Who here hasn't gotten some type of mood benefit or gained better overall emotional health on this paleo diet?
I know that I use to go though bouts of depression , but I now think that for the most part it was all connected to my physical health.
I still have just as much stress and hardship as ever but now all I need is a little humor to shrug off a negative emotion when as before the negative feelings seemed to hang around.
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"Who here hasn't gotten some type of mood benefit or gained better overall emotional health on this paleo diet?"
I found that ZC didn't benefit me in this regard. I now believe ZC is an idealized diet like 811 but in the opposite spectrum.
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"Who here hasn't gotten some type of mood benefit or gained better overall emotional health on this paleo diet?"
I haven't been on raw paleo for long, but some days I get really depressed on the diet. Hope it changes soon, I would hate to have yet another failed diet experiment. On a positive note, I have noticed increased energy and have been more motivated to complete household chores.
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"Who here hasn't gotten some type of mood benefit or gained better overall emotional health on this paleo diet?"
I haven't been on raw paleo for long, but some days I get really depressed on the diet. Hope it changes soon, I would hate to have yet another failed diet experiment. On a positive note, I have noticed increased energy and have been more motivated to complete household chores.
What kind or raw paleo diet are you doing?
Where's your food journal?
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I haven't started a food journal yet, I guess I'll have to start one soon.
My typical daily menu for the past month looks something like this:
1 pound of cube steak or ground bison
1/3 pound of suet
1-2 fruits
3 raw eggs or cooked
Some raw honey
I would like to mix some organs in, but haven't found any that I like yet. ( Slankers Beef liver is horrible ;))
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I would be depressed if I had to eat SUET.
Try bone marrow and live muscle fat.
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Haha, what is it you don't like about suet? I can't imagine muscle fat tasting much better. Thanks for the advice though, I will try replacing suet with live muscle fat.
I have some marrow in my freezer, I haven't ate it yet because its hard to get the marrow out. Guess I'll try breaking the bone with a hammer.
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I really dislike the taste of suet. At least the suet here in my country. The butchers don't bother selling them retail.
But live fat, the yummy ones make me smile.
And the creamy bone marrows are just heavenly.
Some people like suet:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/do-you-eat-raw-beef-suet
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This reply may seem out of place but I just finished an incredible book called "The Continuum Concept" byJean Liedloff written in the early 1960's.
She had gone to South America on a diamond hunting expedition and while there noticed the lack of psychiatric issues with the young and old in the village where she stayed. She observed the mothers continually holding the babies all day as they worked and then the babies slept with them. They had no such thing as cribs. Mothers didn't run after the children when they started crawling etc as the babies knew where danger was. Their children didn't go through the tantrum and other antisocial behaviour stages that are common with first world children because they were constantly watching how their mothers were interacting with others all day. Watching how she walked, talked, worked, etc so they could easily figure it out themselves when they had the muscles and coordination figured out.
She explains why the villagers had no psychological issues by pointing back to this period in their lives of mothering.
I highly recommend the book. It changed my mind totally.
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This reply may seem out of place but I just finished an incredible book called "The Continuum Concept" byJean Liedloff written in the early 1960's.
She had gone to South America on a diamond hunting expedition and while there noticed the lack of psychiatric issues with the young and old in the village where she stayed. She observed the mothers continually holding the babies all day as they worked and then the babies slept with them. They had no such thing as cribs. Mothers didn't run after the children when they started crawling etc as the babies knew where danger was. Their children didn't go through the tantrum and other antisocial behaviour stages that are common with first world children because they were constantly watching how their mothers were interacting with others all day. Watching how she walked, talked, worked, etc so they could easily figure it out themselves when they had the muscles and coordination figured out.
She explains why the villagers had no psychological issues by pointing back to this period in their lives of mothering.
I highly recommend the book. It changed my mind totally.
Similar to the Attachment Parenting and Co-Sleeping of today that I recommend.
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Similar to the Attachment Parenting and Co-Sleeping of today that I recommend.
Can you explain a bit more as in sources etc.?
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I also dislike suet as well , lucky for me I have a butcher that will give me lamb belly fat for free. He explained the difference between the belly lining fat and suet. The belly fat is extremely soft and melts like butter in the mouth, while suet is very pasty and less appealing. Marrow is also good.
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Can you explain a bit more as in sources etc.?
Hard to explain in depth: Google Co-Sleeping
Read up
Then Google
Attachment Parenting Explained
A good site to check is DrMomma/Peaceful Parenting
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All you need is some high meat and an old fashioned brutal set of squats...
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I think ur and mien symptoms are same . I have heard that yoga is best exericse for mental health and for coping with depression . I am not sure if i am right or not . i also need some help for coping with depression .
Do you want me to ban you NOW, or AFTER you post the spam link in your sig?