Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: kurite on February 19, 2010, 01:19:46 pm
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Hi
I finally found a place that sells grass fed beef muscles and organs and even grass fed lamb muscle meats. Unfortunately its delivery only and they have to ship it frozen. So is it worth it??? I can get regular grass fed muscle meats from my local grocer, but no organs and no grass fed lamb. Please, what do you think i should do?
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=( I have nice fresh vacuum-packed grass-fed beef, but one of my briskets got frozen because it was too close to the cooling-part of my fridge =( It's lame, I already put cushions around it but somehow it still happened.
It's strange that they must ship it frozen, I thought vacuum-packed meats, bar mince, could stay fresh for months in refrigeration alone?
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Hi
I finally found a place that sells grass fed beef muscles and organs and even grass fed lamb muscle meats. Unfortunately its delivery only and they have to ship it frozen. So is it worth it??? I can get regular grass fed muscle meats from my local grocer, but no organs and no grass fed lamb. Please, what do you think i should do?
Go for it.
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I dont think there is a big difference between grain-fed and grass-fed. I wouldnt get paranoid about eating some grain fed organs or meats.
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It is not at all bad. It's perfectly fine.
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Better to buy prefrozen 100% grassfed meats than nonfrozen grainfed meats. Grainfed meats are extremely unhealthy. It would be better to eat nonorganic fruit, IMO, than raw graifned meats.
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It seems like a large percentage of people here (from the US at least) are depending on shipments of frozen meat (at least fats and organs)
seems also like a consensus that fats handle better freezing than muscle meats.
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I guess it would be helpful to know if people are eating frozen muscle meats and fats on a regular basis in exclusion of fresh meats, and if thats a doable longer term strategy.
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I've personally never had problems with grain fed animals of higher quality like WF Amish chickens or WF beef, and in the past would have assumed these to be better alternatives to frozen meat with altered bacteria/enzymes.
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I guess it would be helpful to know if people are eating frozen muscle meats and fats on a regular basis in exclusion of fresh meats, and if thats a doable longer term strategy.
AFAIK that's all Lex eats and he's doing fine.
I can personally do fine on frozen meats but I do need to eat more of it to feel sated.
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Wait are the bacteria and proteins altered in some way???
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The water in the cells crystallises, rupturing the cell-walls, allowing the cells' contents to spill out.
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is that dangerous???
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Well I'd think it'd reduce the quality/bio-availability to some degree. I'd also think that the micro-nutrient profile would decrease more rapidly.
With the cells ruptured, they may be more accessible to bacteria, which would mean the freshness would decline quickly after thawing so I'd think you might want to eat it quickly after doing so, some may even like to eat it frozen?
I couldn't say whether or not it's dangerous, if anything that'd depend on how you went about it.
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I've had great results eating grainfed meats and grainfed organs in the last month. I switched to grain fed meats after having used up all my grass fed meat and having felt terrible after a few days of mainly fruit. Have more grass fed meat now but I'm going to continue eating grain fed organs, due to limited supply of grass fed ones and in my opinion nutritionally the order of food is: grass fed organs (whether frozen or not - from experience frozen effects taste very slightly, but not nutrition) > grain fed organs > grass fed muscle meat > grain fed muscle meat
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is that dangerous???
What do you think the Nenets people of Arctic Siberia would think about that, with mouths full of frozen raw reindeer meat that they've eaten that way for as long as anyone can remember and longer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSWy6LGNyAw
"Reindeers (sic), ... the main source of income (and food) of the Nenets people for centuries."
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Do they eat only raw reindeer and are they basically zero carbers or do they eat grains and eat other unhealthy things??? Anyone know they're life expectancy????
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I dont think we should be looking up to the eskimoes or nenets and admiring their diet because they live in unnatural climates that humans beings shouldnt be living in. Rather picture yourself in a tropical paradise next to a beach were one would most likely be eating lots of fruits vegetables and probably more fish than land animals. But thats just my opinion...
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Yah originally we were meant for tropics. But in all reality caucasians are actually meant for colder climates that dont get as much sun. In my opinion we are not fully adapted to it and were not adapted to the tropics anymore...I kinda hate my thought process but its true unless theres something im missing.
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I dont think we should be looking up to the eskimoes or nenets and admiring their diet because they live in unnatural climates that humans beings shouldnt be living in. Rather picture yourself in a tropical paradise next to a beach were one would most likely be eating lots of fruits vegetables and probably more fish than land animals. But thats just my opinion...
l)
and 'originally' we came from Africa, a land with abundant land game.
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I dont think we should be looking up to the eskimoes or nenets and admiring their diet because they live in unnatural climates that humans beings shouldnt be living in. Rather picture yourself in a tropical paradise next to a beach were one would most likely be eating lots of fruits vegetables and probably more fish than land animals. But thats just my opinion...
Tropical climates and tropical fruits/veg do not answer the question: "is that [eating frozen raw meat] dangerous???"--with dangerous presumably meaning risking causing rapid severe illness or even death. The Nenets example applied to the question and the answer based on their example of eating raw meat frozen for centuries is clearly no, eating the meat frozen instead of fresh or thawed is apparently not dangerous as entire societies have done it for centuries and probably many millennia.
No further claims were made about admiring their diet, but it does so happen that I have done very well on a diet similar to theirs and that I enjoy frozen raw meat myself. So if doing well on a diet means "admiring" it, then I guess that applies in my case. In contrast, tropical fruits cause me a number of problems. For example, just recently I ate 4 or 5 small chunks of pineapple and developed a nasty canker sore, but I foolishly didn't recognize the connection and I ate another handful of chunks the next day, followed by a worsening of the canker sore. I didn't have any more pineapple after that and my sore healed. Raw tropical fruit also promotes acne, dry skin, dental film and plaque, stomach upset and a host of other problems in me--with tropical juices having more severe effects than whole fruit. So for me, admiring a tropical diet would be quite foolish.
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But those peoples' meat stays cold, from the moment the animal's killed to the moment it's eaten it stays cold. It isn't defrosted, and if it was maybe they'd then boil it, or just eat it fresh before it freezes in the first place.
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But those peoples' meat stays cold, from the moment the animal's killed to the moment it's eaten it stays cold. It isn't defrosted, and if it was maybe they'd then boil it, or just eat it fresh before it freezes in the first place.
It seems like you're really reaching to find some reason to condemn frozen meats. I remain unconvinced, sorry. Can you explain to me how frozen meat damages human metabolism or other bodily functions or promotes cancer or something concrete? Lex is more knowledgeable about this stuff and he also remains unconvinced of the dangers of frozen meats.
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Phil, can I ask what % of your meat/fat would you say you eat frozen?
also, sorry if you have answered this elsewhere, but do you have a particular method of thawing/time lapsed between eating thawing meat?
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Not responding to anyone specifically, but: I had a load of juicy grass-fed vac-packed beef briskets. One of them I accidentally froze because it was too close to the cooling element. After defrosting, when I tipped it out of the pack into a bowl, it was filled to the brim with blood. As opposed to all the others where the blood was contained within the meat.
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Phil, can I ask what % of your meat/fat would you say you eat frozen?
Just twice so far. I found I liked it by accident when I didn't want to wait any longer for some meat to fully thaw.
also, sorry if you have answered this elsewhere, but do you have a particular method of thawing/time lapsed between eating thawing meat?
No. I don't have set times for thawing or aging. The semi-frozen meat I tried and enjoyed on two occasions was mostly, but not fully, thawed. I've found that I prefer meats and fats that have been aged enough to take all the surface moisture and odor away.
It may turn out that freezing meat is bad enough to avoid it if you can. I just haven't seen the evidence for it yet and Lex's defense of it was pretty convincing.
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so you get all your fats/organs locally then?
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Yes, most of my food comes from my region (New England), and I don't buy any off the Internet right now, so it's never frozen unless I freeze it. I guess I currently freeze about 1/4 to 1/3 of my meat.
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Frozen meats are not of great in taste and not healthy. Fresh is best.
For you perhaps, but I enjoy frozen or aged better than fresh myself, and didn't expect this in either case. Have you tried frozen or aged meat?
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The Nenets example applied to the question and the answer based on their example of eating raw meat frozen for centuries is clearly no, eating the meat frozen instead of fresh or thawed is apparently not dangerous as entire societies have done it for centuries and probably many millennia.
That same argument has been wrongly used to claim that HGs are healthy because they'd been eating cooked meats for millenia. Neither logical or correct. If something is harmful but not fatal, a group can continue such an unhealthy practice for millenia.
Freezing does nowhere near as much damage as cooking but it does lower nutrient_levels, especially after thawing. The taste of prefrozen meats isn't as good as the nonfrozen kind. Plus, i've heard an (unsubstantiated) claim that enzymes in frozen meats get slightly denatured and eventually destroyed after very long-term storage.
All that said, I have come across a very few mentions, here and there, of people complaining of nasty reactions to pefrozen (grassfed) meats.
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Simply because one can imagine a risk does not mean there is a significant and substantial risk. Just as you are skeptical of lethal risk from eating raw foods, so I am skeptical of it from freezing foods. One could make the same negative arguments about fermented/high meats/seafood as about freezing, since they both involve cell breakdown, etc. Lex's posts addressing concerns about freezing meats seem reasonable and reassuring.
Plus, i've heard an (unsubstantiated) claim ...
Surely you know better than to rely on unsubstantiated and unexplained rumors. They can inspire us to investigate them, but we shouldn't make any judgements based on them. I consider the theoretical risk and potential likely severity small enough to take a calculated risk in eating frozen meats.
If you don't want to eat any frozen meats, you can consider Lex and I your guinea pigs, although I eat mostly never-frozen meats. If I have any problems from eating formerly or currently frozen meats I'll report them.
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Simply because one can imagine a risk does not mean there is a significant and substantial risk. Just as you are skeptical of lethal risk from eating raw foods, so I am skeptical of it from freezing foods. One could make the same negative arguments about fermented/high meats/seafood as about freezing, since they both involve cell breakdown, etc. Lex's posts addressing concerns about freezing meats seem reasonable and reassuring.
Surely you know better than to rely on unsubstantiated and unexplained rumors. They can inspire us to investigate them, but we shouldn't make any judgements based on them. I consider the theoretical risk and potential likely severity small enough to take a calculated risk in eating frozen meats.
If you don't want to eat any frozen meats, you can consider Lex and I your guinea pigs, although I eat mostly never-frozen meats. If I have any problems from eating formerly or currently frozen meats I'll report them.
You're missing the point. I did not state that there was a fatal risk involved in eating prefrozen meats, I merely stated that it was a fact that a few people on RVAF diets have experienced definite negative reactions to prefrozen grassfed meats in a similiar way that a few others get nasty reactions to raw grainfed meats. The fact that others have no problems with it is neither here nor there, and doesn't invalidate the experience of the few.
As for the claim I mentioned, it does have some merit. Granted, info on the effects of freezing is rather low on the ground, but it is well-known that freezing does denature enzymes to a small extent, in the short-term, so the claim isn't totally unlikely. For my own part, I find long-frozen foods to be less palatable than those frozen for short periods, so I suspect there my be some truth to this re various changes made between short- and long-term storage in the freezer.
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You're missing the point. I did not state that there was a fatal risk
involved in eating prefrozen meats,
I didn't say you did. I said risk of severe or even lethal effects appeared to be implied in the original statement by someone else that I had originally responded to. Again, if the risk is not serious and there is little evidence, then I'm not particularly concerned. You're free to be concerned about the reported experiences of a few if you wish. You can think of Lex and me as guinea pigs. If you're concerns are on target then you may get to watch us whither away. ;)
freezing does denature enzymes to a small extent, in the short-term, so the claim isn't totally unlikely.
Does rotting meat also denature enzymes to any extent, such as suggested with sausages (fermented meats/fish) below?
"The hardness of sausage is a measure of the degree of maturation, resulting from gelation of denatured meat proteins, and the loss of water (Gimeno, Astiasaran, & Bello, 1999). However, loss of water did not occur with the present experimental system indicating that hardness changes were due only to gelation." Development of Model Fermented Fish Sausage from New Zealand Marine Species: Textural properties of FFM during fermentation http://aut.researchgateway.ac.nz/bitstream/10292/807/3/KhemS.pdf
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Why does meat preserve in the freezer or fridge?? WHY? THE FREEZING KILLS ENZYME ACTIVITY!! you may as well be eating a steak at the local bbq!
I keep my meat in the pantry in the dark. The enzymes in the meat are a lot stronger and healthier in that environment.
Frozen meat or cooled meat is cooked meat in my experience. You can feel it in your stomach as it doesnt digest so well.
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are you getting your meat before it's been refridgerated, as do butchers and slaughter houses do?
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are you getting your meat before it's been refridgerated, as do butchers and slaughter houses do?
Van, good question you posted in response. He/it/she is a troll though and vegan apparently.
I made high meat in a clay pot un-refrigerated. It came out different and good, but no way I could keep it out that way more than a week.
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I am currently sitting here eating thawed grassfed beef pancreas(sweetbreads). 2 pounds to be exact. I wasn't going to eat all of this but I accidentally thawed it all so I'm gonna spend the next 2 hours eating it. Been an hour since I've started eating it, I feel fine. If I have any problems you can bet your ass I'll report them here immediately.
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Thanks, is all the meat you eat frozen then thawed?
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I'm in the same situation as you. I can get fresh muscle meats(grassfed) but only frozen organs. Frozen liver, heart, pancreas, and I just recently ordered 40 lbs of suet(dont know what the hell I'm going to do with all that yet lol). My butcher provides all of this. It's worked out great so far. I really wouldn't worry if I were you about eating thawed organs. Of course get them fresh when you can but from my experience and the posts of everyone on here eating frozen thawed meat is just not that big of a deal.
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Why does meat preserve in the freezer or fridge?? WHY? THE FREEZING KILLS ENZYME ACTIVITY!!....
So now we have criticisms of freezing meat on the one hand because it does denature the meat, like enzymes and high-meat fermenting do, and on the other hand because it does not allow denaturing via enzyme activity. They contradict, so they can't both be valid criticisms. I suspect that freezing denatures the proteins in meats less than cooking and that all denaturing is not completely evil in itself. The problem seems to be more with cooking than with freezing or fermenting, else we would expect traditional Arctic peoples to have suffered protein deficiencies and other health problems that SAD dieters experience.
Frozen meat or cooled meat is cooked meat in my experience. You can feel it in your stomach as it doesnt digest so well.
Lex and I and others here haven't noticed any stomach problems from eating frozen meats. No one's claiming that it's equally as good as fresh meats or fermented meats made from fresh meats, but not everyone can get only fresh meats, fats, organs and seafood. Sometimes frozen meats are an acceptable option. Freezing appears to be more problematic with plant foods, as they appear to lose their taste and nutrients more rapidly when frozen and salt and other crap is often added, but I think even certain frozen plant foods may be OK in limited amounts--mainly frozen berries that have nothing added.
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Also how many of you eat frozen meats?
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I've been eating only frozen meats for the last couple months. I would much prefer to get them fresh but this might not even be possible now and if it is would take up a very significant proportion of my time. Ideally in the future, I would buy a whole cow fresh(or possibly start hunting) and let it sit up in a large fridge taking from it what I need.
So, I am concerned about the quality of frozen meats and have read about nutrient loss but I don't think I have another option, especially now. Lex has had great results with frozen meat for 4+ years so there is at least one data point
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A whole cow, would that last you ~6 months if it stayed fresh?
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seems that thawing enzymes activates their activity again, and slows or speeds up the rate depending on the organ. Enough info for me to keep eating frozen thawed meat and organs
Freeze-Thaw Effects on Metabolic Enzymes in Wood Frog Organs*1
Kyra J. Cowan1 and Kenneth B. Storey2
Institute of Biochemistry and Department of Chemistry, Carleton University, 1125 Colonel By Drive, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, K1S 5B6
Received 4 May 2001; accepted 6 September 2001. ; Available online 5 March 2002.
Abstract
To determine whether episodes of natural freezing and thawing altered the metabolic makeup of wood frog (Rana sylvatica) organs, the maximal activities of 28 enzymes of intermediary metabolism were assessed in six organs (brain, heart, kidney, liver, skeletal muscle, gut) of control (5°C acclimated), frozen (24 h at ?3°C), and thawed (24 h back at 5°C) frogs. The enzymes assessed represented pathways including glycolysis, gluconeo-genesis, amino acid metabolism, fatty acid metabolism, the TCA cycle, and adenylate metabolism. Organ-specific responses seen included (a) the number of enzymes affected by freeze-thaw (1 in gut ranging to 17 in heart), (b) the magnitude and direction of response (most often enzyme activities decreased during freezing and rebounded with thawing but, liver showed freeze-specific increases in several enzymes), and (c) the response to freezing versus thawing (enzyme activities in gut and kidney changed during freezing, whereas most enzymes in skeletal muscle responded to thawing). Overall, the data show that freeze-thaw implements selected changes to the maximal activities of various enzymes of intermediary metabolism and that these may aid organ-specific responses that alter fuel use during freeze-thaw, support cryoprotectant metabolism, and aid organ endurance of freeze-induced ischemia.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WD5-458W29T-H&_user=10&_coverDate=08/31/2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1244245024&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=502c3975efd994d926b1561cf9798ebb
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thanks great info
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OK MY LAST POST COULD BE MISLEADING!!!!
I just found out that you can freeze frogs then defrost them and they would still be alive!! So they don't actually die when they are frozen unless its realllly cold.
So unless you're eating frozen frogs then please discard the information I last posted!
:o :o :o
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I just found out that you can freeze frogs then defrost them and they would still be alive!! So they don't actually die when they are frozen unless its realllly cold.
Some of them. It depends on the type of frog and the severity of the weather as to if they'll survive. For example Wood Frogs from the arctic have a high percentage of themselves that can freeze before death. If I'm not mistaken they have a large amount of glycogen (or glycerol?) which helps to keep them from bursting internally as things freeze.
FWIW most frogs burrow into the mud at the bottom of a body of water with enough water over them so they don't freeze or they burrow into leaves, dirt, or under bark. The frogs that can withstand true freezing are few and far between and are adaptations to extreme temperatures.
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i dont think freezing/cooling foods kills their enzymes, but i think it does slow down the ripening/rotting process. i suppose there is more of a concern with freezing due to freezer burn and ice formation, but my frozen meat is pre-sealed in vacuum packs.
come to think of it, i probably don't even need to freeze vac-packed meat, do i?