Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Muhammad.Sunshine on March 27, 2012, 01:54:40 am
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Beautiful Butyrate
Butyric acid has amazing benefits for your health. Butyric acid is a short chain fatty acid which dramatically improves insulin sensitivity, metabolism, blood lipids, body composition, and reduces stress and inflammation.
Butyric acid is made by the fermentation of fiber in the large intestine. The lower digestibility of raw vegetables may be a blessing in disguise. Feeding the large intestine more undigested plant matter will increase butyric acid production. Butyric acid also occurs in dairy products.
This has been a great discovery, it challenged my previous paradigm: raw plants are indigestible and provide virtually no starch, sugar, or nutrients. Now I realize that short chain fatty acids made from fiber have fantastic health benefits. In what appeared to be raw indigestible fiber, nature was providing sustenance for us all along.
Iguana emphasizes that you should trust in nature, eat foods which agree with you, and have peace of mind, his style is wise indeed.
Further Readings:
This link has a good overview about the benefits of butyric acid.
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html)
This link has information on resistant starch which ferments into butyric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch)
This link is about captive gorillas that switched to a natural whole foods diet and lost weight and improved their health. The indigestible fiber they ate increased their production of short chain fatty acids.
http://180metabolism.com/blog/?p=145 (http://180metabolism.com/blog/?p=145)
This is exciting new information; eating more raw vegetables, roots, and tubers may bring great health and wellness benefits via short chain fatty acids. Please share your ideas about this subject.
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Note: The fibers which convert to short chain fatty acids and provides health benefits are soluble fibers. Soluble fiber is more like starch and becomes a gel rather than a solid mass in the large intestine.
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Beautiful Butyrate
Butyric acid is made by the fermentation of fiber in the large intestine. The lower digestibility of raw vegetables may be a blessing in disguise. Feeding the large intestine more undigested plant matter will increase butyric acid production. Butyric acid also occurs in dairy products.
Iguana emphasizes that you should trust in nature, eat foods which agree with you, and have peace of mind, his style is wise indeed.
This is exciting new information; eating more raw vegetables, roots, and tubers may bring great health and wellness benefits via short chain fatty acids. Please share your ideas about this subject.
Hi MS,
Ha! yes Iguana, 'crazy' wisdom, that is not so crazy! ;D
Take a walk through the vegie shop and smell the air, pick up the vegies and smell even more closely. One, or some will talk to you and and say, 'eat me'. I doubt they will speak of butyric acid, but you never know ;)
The shop owner may think you are mad, using your nose like a wild animal, but no matter.
He or she will be grateful for your business and your body will happily go about its business.
Eaten any ostrich eggs lately? ;)
Kind wishes, J
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Butyric acid is also provided by animal fats like suet, butter and probably other animal fat sources (which you'll never hear from vegans or politically correct scientists) and I suspect is more bioavailable from those sources, for most people, than from plant fiber. As a matter of fact, the term "butyric acid" derives from the Greek word for "butter" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyric_acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyric_acid)).
Gorillas have much longer intestines than humans, and have far more gut bacteria that can convert plant fibers into butyric acid. Humans need to ingest more fat directly than gorillas, as our guts are much less efficient at conversion of fibers into fats.
So for great health and wellness benefits, it seems to make sense to eat more butyric-acid-rich short chain animal fats (and long chain animal fats that humans have been eating for millions of years).
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Which raw plants will give this beneficial butyrate acid?
Any tried and tested plants out there by experience from a fellow raw paleo dieter?
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Plants? Don't you mean which animals?
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Plants? Don't you mean which animals?
He mentioned this:
This has been a great discovery, it challenged my previous paradigm: raw plants are indigestible and provide virtually no starch, sugar, or nutrients. Now I realize that short chain fatty acids made from fiber have fantastic health benefits. In what appeared to be raw indigestible fiber, nature was providing sustenance for us all along.
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He mentioned this:
This has been a great discovery, it challenged my previous paradigm: raw plants are indigestible and provide virtually no starch, sugar, or nutrients. Now I realize that short chain fatty acids made from fiber have fantastic health benefits. In what appeared to be raw indigestible fiber, nature was providing sustenance for us all along.
Sure, but surely you mean "in what appeared to be raw DIgestible ANIMAL FATs--more so than plant fibers? Animal fats--more digestible and more beneficial to humans. Nature in its wisdom all along provided animal fats to humans and our proto-human ancestors (going back millions of years).
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I know about that thing about animal fats being better.
I'm just curious what plants will give this butyrate benefit.
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Me too. It is necessary to know what plant can give Butyate acid. My family, my schizophrenic brother probably will prefer eating plants then raw animals. And it is easy to tell others eating raw plants then raw animals. I don't need to try plants ever. Raw animals are my best source.
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I don't know a lot about plants, but Stephan says "beans, vegetables, fruit and nuts are good sources of fiber," so I figure, try the versions of those that are edible raw (and, yes, there are even legumes that are edible raw, but if your immune system or your gut is damaged, maybe you won't handle them well, like me ;D ).
BTW, even Stephan said this: Butyrate also occurs in significant amounts in food. What foods contain butyrate? Hmm, I wonder where the name BUTYR-ate came from? Butter perhaps? Butter is 3-4 percent butyrate, the richest known source.
And my experience is that tallow/suet and marrow is an even better overall food than butter--the rawer and wilder the better.
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Hi Wattlebird,
When I was feeding farm animals they would look at the food, sniff it, and then decide if they wanted to eat it; this is the instinctive process which you described. It will be fun to shop instincto style, if there's an ostrich egg it will be consumed with gusto in your honor .
Hello PaleoPhil,
Meat sources of butyric acid would be awesome, however my research revealed only limited amounts in dairy products. Perhaps there is a creature which concentrates short chain fatty acids in its tissues, I'll have to keep searching.
The capacity for humans to ferment fibers varies individually and is less than herbivorous creatures. However, the benefit of short chain fatty acids are their healing properties rather than being a primary energy source.
Hey GoodSamaritan,
Learning about nutrient dense animal foods, and then raw foods were two positive paradigm shifts for me. Learning about the importance of gut microbes is like a whole new field of dietary adventure. Perhaps the missing key to vigorous health and wellness in modern society is gut microbe and flora health.
I am devising a plan to improve my gut health with prebiotics which include soluble fiber, oligosaccharides, and resistant starch. Practical sources for the following substances are as follows:
Soluble fiber
Carrots, parsnips, and bananas.
Oligosaccharides-Inulin
Jicama and Yacón have huge amounts of inulin and soluble fiber, they are also edible raw and said to be mildly sweet and crisp, I'll probably make them into raw fries. Jicama and Yacón are one of the richest and most practical sources of prebiotic material. Onions and leeks are also an excellent sources of inulin oligosaccharides and go well with salads.
Resistant starch
Bananas are my go to guys for resistant starch, I also intend to experiment with small amounts of raw winter squashes, sweet potatoes, and edible tubers.
It may also be beneficial to take probiotics in the form of cultured dairy or fermented foods to help the process. A good mixed salad and various fruits will round off the prebiotic intake.
It will take time to adapt to a higher intake of raw plant matter, but once the gut is colonized by good bacteria it will be smooth sailing form there.
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Here are the top foods listed high in butyric acid. You can see why it was named after butter.
Foods High in Butyric acid
http://wholefoodcatalog.info/nutrient/butyric_acid/foods/high/ (http://wholefoodcatalog.info/nutrient/butyric_acid/foods/high/)
Foods High in Butyric acid (per 100g edible portion)
Fermented butter
2900 mg
Unsalted butter
2700 mg
Salted butter
2700 mg
Cream(milk fat)
1500 mg
Whipping cream(milk fat)
1200 mg
Natural cheese(cheddar)
1100 mg
Natural cheese(cream)
1100 mg
Natural cheese(emmental)
1100 mg
Natural cheese(gouda)
970 mg
Coffee whitener(powder, milk fat)
950 mg
Whole milk powder
940 mg
Process cheese
900 mg
Cheese spread
840 mg
Natural cheese(edam)
810 mg
Natural cheese(camambert)
780 mg
Natural cheese(blue)
760 mg
Butter cake
730 mg
Natural cheese(parmesan)
730 mg
Cream(milk and vegetable fat)
730 mg
Whipping cream(milk and vegetable fat)
620 mg
Coffee whitener(liquid, milk fat)
540 mg
Biscuit(soft)
440 mg
Ice cream(high fat)
370 mg
Ice milk
360 mg
Coffee whitener(liquid, milk and vegetable fat)
270 mg
Evaporated whole milk
260 mg
Ice cream(regular)
250 mg
Condensed whole milk, sweetened
220 mg
Butterscotch
210 mg
Bavarian cream
180 mg
...
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Update:
It is day four of my prebiotic experiment an the results are positive and promising. I've experienced improved energy, digestion, and well being since I increased my prebiotic intake. I also increased my probiotic intake via cultured yogurt and spontaneously began eating a single meal per day.
Symptoms of fiber ingestion have been pleasantly mild, I expect such symptoms to further subside as I become more fiber adapted ;D. I'll update my progress as this experiment continues.
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Where do you get this notion, apparently, that fiber has more butyric acid (butter acid) than butter? It's named after butter, for Pete's sake.
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Where do you get this notion, apparently, that fiber has more butyric acid (butter acid) than butter? It's named after butter, for Pete's sake.
Fiber itself doesn't have this fatty acid, the bacteria in the colon produce it via fermentation. Here's the average yield and SCFA proportions for different types of fiber:
| carbohydrate | SCFA/100g | Acetate % | Propionate % | Butyrate % |
| starch | 63 | 62 | 15 | 23 |
| pectin | 35-54 | 80 | 12 | 8 |
| wheat/oat brans | ? | 64 | 16 | 20 |
So from 100g of (undigested) starch you'll get 14g butyric acid, obviously more than from 100g of butter.
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Hello PaleoPhil,
Thank you for driving me to do more empirical research.
Through calculations based on a research paper (linked below) I estimated the following:
1. 100g of Jerusalem artichokes (my current soluble fiber source) provides 18g of inulin.
2. Lets assume that 50% of the soluble fiber becomes short chain fatty acids.
3. Butyric acid makes up 35% of inulin generated fatty acids, therefor 18g of inulin makes 3.1g of butyric acid.
So if these calculation are correct, then 100g of tasty Jerusalem artichokes at 73kcal, will provide as much butyrate as 100g or 700kcal of butter!
If I include the rest of the prebiotic fiber and starch I eat, the amount of butyric acid production will be higher. The other short chain fatty acids can also be included bringing the net amount of beneficial short chain fatty acids even higher.
But wait, there's more.
The same paper showed that butyric acid production increased exponentially in rats as they adapted and build up their gut flora. After two weeks of eating raw potato starch, waste analysis revealed 6% butyric acid, and by four weeks it had risen to 19% indicating ramped up production of butyric acid due to micro-flora adaptation.
The link to the pdf paper is http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=short-chain%20fatty%20acid%20formation%20at%20fermentation%20of%20indigestible%20carbohydrates%20by%20ifsa%20henningsson%2C%20inger%20bjiirck%20and%20margareta%20nyman&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foodandnutritionresearch.net%2Findex.php%2Ffnr%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F1801%2F1708&ei=27J3T9z7Oeb50gGsyaTTDQ&usg=AFQjCNHPQ2xu4rVbuYSDdDAYQbkngcCrIg&cad=rja (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=short-chain%20fatty%20acid%20formation%20at%20fermentation%20of%20indigestible%20carbohydrates%20by%20ifsa%20henningsson%2C%20inger%20bjiirck%20and%20margareta%20nyman&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foodandnutritionresearch.net%2Findex.php%2Ffnr%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F1801%2F1708&ei=27J3T9z7Oeb50gGsyaTTDQ&usg=AFQjCNHPQ2xu4rVbuYSDdDAYQbkngcCrIg&cad=rja)
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So from 100g of (undigested) starch you'll get 14g butyric acid, obviously more than from 100g of butter.
Thanks, what is your source for that? What counts is what's actually absorbed by the body. Are those percentages regarding content? If so, then unless the conversion rate is 100%, the butyrate actually absorbed would be lower.
Hello PaleoPhil,
Thank you for driving me to do more empirical research.
You're welcome. This is an interesting thread that has got me doing some digging too.
2. Lets assume that 50% of the soluble fiber becomes short chain fatty acids.
Some sources suggest that the conversion of fiber to butyric acid is not very efficient and not all of it gets converted into butyrate, so the resulting figure might be less than 50% conversion to butyrate:
"Regardless of the type of fiber, the body absorbs fewer than 4 Calories (16.7 kilojoules) per gram of fiber, which can create inconsistencies for actual product nutrition labels. In some countries, fiber is not listed on nutrition labels, and is considered 0 Calories/gram when the food's total Calories are computed. In other countries all fiber must be listed, and is considered 4 Calories/gram when the food's total Calories are computed (because chemically fiber is a type of carbohydrate and other carbohydrates contribute 4 Calories per gram). In the US, soluble fiber must be counted as 4 Calories per gram, but insoluble fiber may be (and usually is) treated as 0 Calories per gram and not mentioned on the label." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber)
And some of the fiber gets converted to short chain fatty acids other than butyric acid:
(assuming 100 percent conversion to butyrate, which isn’t the case because some is converted to other short chain fatty acids). ...
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/ (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/)
More than half of the usually consumed fibres are degraded in the large intestine, the rest being excreted in the stool
http://www.fao.org/docrep/W8079E/w8079e0l.htm (http://www.fao.org/docrep/W8079E/w8079e0l.htm)
mass-wise, 0.5g starch will yield at most 0.275† g butyrate assuming 100% conversion.
http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/02/resistant-starch-butyrate-eades.html (http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/02/resistant-starch-butyrate-eades.html)
A caveat is that everyone produces butyrate differently. The gut microbiome is individual for each person. Another caveat is that butyrate is present in certain foods, but this has been poorly studied, which is unfortunate. http://huntgatherlove.com/content/short-chain-fatty-acids-and-low-carb (http://huntgatherlove.com/content/short-chain-fatty-acids-and-low-carb)
On the other hand, there is this from that same last source:
...conventional low-carb diets generally do a very poor job of generating butryate in the populations studied. There are several papers on this, the most recent being High-protein, reduced-carbohydrate weight-loss diets promote metabolite profiles likely to be detrimental to colonic health. This one is interesting because the low-carb diet studied reminds me a bit of what I've seen some low-carb paleos eat. ...
In the HPLC diet, SCFA production decreased quite a lot. Butyrate concentration in particular was halved. ...
In the meantime I continue to enjoy success from diet that includes ample amounts of carbohydrates that work for me, like rice and buckwheat, and keeping my protein low. Fat I eat ad libetum. I actually had more success with these then with root vegetables, some of which seem to make my symptoms worse (sweet potatoes...I'm looking at you...).
http://huntgatherlove.com/content/short-chain-fatty-acids-and-low-carb (http://huntgatherlove.com/content/short-chain-fatty-acids-and-low-carb)
The study is here:
High-protein, reduced-carbohydrate weight-loss diets promote metabolite profiles likely to be detrimental to colonic health.
Russell WR, Gratz SW, Duncan SH, Holtrop G, Ince J, Scobbie L, Duncan G, Johnstone AM, Lobley GE, Wallace RJ, Duthie GG, Flint HJ.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2011 May;93(5):1062-72. Epub 2011 Mar 9.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21389180 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21389180)
Not surprisingly, LCers had a different take on the study and butyrate in general:
[L]et’s share a few facts that were missing about Flint’s “study”:
1. It is a small, unpublished, NON-clinical trial study. ...
2. We have no idea what foods the men ate on their “Atkins-like” diet. ...
3. Low-carb INCREASES fatty acids in the blood, not decrease(s) them.
This is a metabolic truth that was completely missed by the “experts” featured in the news stories about this study. The higher the fatty acids in the blood, the less need there is for having them in the colon. Livin’ la vida low-carb saturates the body with healthy fatty acids.
4. Ketogenic diets (like PHASE 3) use ketones for nutrition. ...
5. Low-carb diets reduce weight, lower insulin, and increase ketones. ...
6. Leap of faith to speculate based on only one measure of [one] study. ...
7. Diets that are very low in carbs actually TREAT cancer.
Yep, the more we look at cancer, there’s a trend beginning to grow–remove the sugar and excess carbohydrate from the diet so the cancer can’t feed off of it and you can reduce your risk of getting a variety of cancers. I’ve highlighted studies showing the benefits of livin’ la vida low-carb for treating and preventing brain cancer, pancreatic cancer, esophageal cancer, kidney cancer, breast cancer, and prostate cancer among others. To assert that a low-carb diet comes anywhere close to causing bowel cancer is utterly absurd!
8. High-carb diets may be linked to all kinds of cancers. ...
9. Foods on the Atkins diet have LOTS of butyrate in them.
This is the irony of all ironies. While Flint and his gang bemoan the lack of butyrate on this “Atkins-like” plan they fed their study participants, check out the following acceptable low-carb foods consumed on the REAL Atkins diet along with their very high butyrate content:
Butter: 3,230mg
Parmesan Cheese: 1510mg
Swiss Cheese: 1100mg
Cream: 1080mg
Cheddar Cheese: 1050mg
Gruyere Cheese: 1050mg
Edam Cheese: 1000mg
Gouda Cheese: 1000mg
Feta Cheese: 775mg
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10. Gut bacteria reduction only happens in the absence of vegetables.
If you are consuming the recommended levels of vegetable fiber in your diet as required on the Atkins diet, then gut bacteria should not be reduced. It’s when people attempt to do “Atkins” on their own assuming they know what that means that gets them in trouble. Do yourself a favor and READ THE BOOK! ...
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/atkins-diet-doesnt-lack-butyrate-increase-bowel-cancer-risk-as-study-asserts/1886 (http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/atkins-diet-doesnt-lack-butyrate-increase-bowel-cancer-risk-as-study-asserts/1886)
The bacterial fauna changes with everything we eat. Gorillas consume enormous amounts of fiber, which is converted into butyrate and other short-chain fatty acids in their colons, and can be followed by the sounds of their constant belching and farting. These same effects are seen in those who eat diets filled with complex carbohydrates. Why? Because these bacteria give off a lot of gas. Humans have relatively short colons, more like those of a carnivore, which means that we’re not really designed to do a lot of fermenting in there. Butyric acid can be provided to the colon cells from the blood and doesn’t have to come from the interior of the colon, so I wouldn’t worry about it. No studies have shown that people who eat less fiber suffer more colon cancer, so I don’t think that complaint is valid. -Michael Eades, MD http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/bogus-studies/last-gasp-of-the-dark-ages-of-nutrition/ (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/bogus-studies/last-gasp-of-the-dark-ages-of-nutrition/)
If the benefits of the resistant starch come from its conversion to butyrate as our RD avers, and if it requires the amount per day found in only one half cup of potato (or of the other foods she lists) as she also avers, then why not provide ourselves with one and a half times as much by eating a couple of pats of butter per day, which come without the extra three teaspoons of sugar? We get the butyrate without having to convert and we don’t get the extra carbs. -Michael Eades, MD
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/ (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/)
And at least one anti-LCer has responded:
...sodium butyrate is used in the treatment of Crohn's disease, and supplements are coated to ensure release in the ileo-caecal region and colon. This would lead me to believe that the majority of butyrate in butter is absorbed well before it gets to the end of the small intestine and large intestine in the fully developed digestive system. May well be why it's found only in the infant food of mammals that have yet to establish bacterial populations in their guts. It seems to me that soluble fibers are a much better source of butyrate than butter. We get more from high fiber sources, delivered directly at the point of use/need with fewer calories and a larger bulk of food. I would suggest inulin is a better source of butyrate than resistant starch simply because foods high in inulin tend to not be overly high in digestible starch. http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/02/resistant-starch-butyrate-eades.html (http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/02/resistant-starch-butyrate-eades.html)
After two weeks of eating raw potato starch, waste analysis revealed 6% butyric acid, and by four weeks it had risen to 19% indicating ramped up production of butyric acid due to micro-flora adaptation.
It would be funny if raw potato starch is a healthy food. It would refute both Wrangham and Tyler, but where is the evidence that humans, not mice, digest raw potato starch well (other than perhaps wild raw potato starch, such as Eskimo potato)?
It would be interesting to learn what the butyrate conversion rates are for starchy or inulin-rich plants are. I am much more open to the possibility of benefits from raw wild tubers and roots than many Paleo dieters. I don't see things as a war of roots and tubers versus animal fats or HC vs LC. I see raw, wild sources of both roots/tubers and animal fats, and approximations like organic domesticated roots and tubers that are edible raw and raw pastured animal fats as probably healthy for most people, and there seems to be a wide range of macronutrient ratios that humans can thrive on, which was apparently part of the key of the success of H. sapiens.
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Thanks, what is your source for that? What counts is what's actually absorbed by the body. Are those percentages regarding content? If so, then unless the conversion rate is 100%, the butyrate actually absorbed would be lower.
My source is "Dr. John H. CUMMINGS: The Large Intestine in Nutrition and Disease"
Around 95% of the SCFAs produced in the colon are absorbed. Of the produced butyrate, 80% is used by the cells of the colon itself. Did you see the table I posted? You have the conversion rates for starch and pectin there. You'll find some more in the above reference.
No matter how wonderful this butyric acid, I wouldn't go crazy on fiber. There are extremists like Ray Peat who would probably drink antibiotics to kill any bacteria in the digestive tract.. while he's quite crazy, he does have a point: besides the SCFAs, you get a bunch of toxins and gases as byproducts; I'm not sure how good they are in larger doses.
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My past experiences with VLC diets reduced my gut bacteria levels. My vivaciousness never seemed to be fully restored even though I began eating lots of organs, fatty fish, and carbohydrates to rectify the issue. Fortunately, last week things began to change.
My current gut health regime of natural prebiotics and probiotics made me feel better than ever. The restoration of gut bacteria was the missing key in my wellness strategy.
Perhaps a VLC diet low in overall sugar, but high enough in prebiotics and probiotics to ensure excellent gut health, could be a highly successful diet.
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PaleoPhil
Your research is extensive.
Insoluble fiber is the fiber which the general public is familiar with, it forms the indigestible mass which has value in the process of elimination, but has low fermentation and health potential. The beneficial fiber we are after is soluble fiber, which forms a gel and provides metabolic and health benefits. The public is largely unaware of this fiber distinction. So, when fiber intake is calculated, only the soluble fiber should be considered.
aLptHW4k4y,
Consumption of plant material should be well managed, even wild animals intentionally select plants with the lowest anti-nutrient content. I feel that the root vegetables I am consuming for soluble fiber are low in anti-nutrients and relatively easy to digest.
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My source is "Dr. John H. CUMMINGS: The Large Intestine in Nutrition and Disease"
Around 95% of the SCFAs produced in the colon are absorbed. Of the produced butyrate, 80% is used by the cells of the colon itself. Did you see the table I posted? You have the conversion rates for starch and pectin there. You'll find some more in the above reference.
Yes, that's the table I was asking about. I checked the original table at http://www.angelfire.com/folk/cusp/images/large_intestine.pdf (http://www.angelfire.com/folk/cusp/images/large_intestine.pdf) and it looks like it's implying that 23g of butyrate is converted from 100 g of pure starch (a potato is not pure starch). Should that then be multiplied by the 49% "yield" to give 11.27 g that is actually absorbed by the body?
The 63 SCFA/100 g figure is listed elsewhere in the report as 63 SCFA/100 g carbohydrate, but according to Dr. Eades, less SCFA is produced by carbohydrate than starch, and the table lists "starch," so I'm not sure how that fraction applies to the table.
If the 23% conversion rate is correct and I use that with the USDA database http://ndb.nal.usda.gov (http://ndb.nal.usda.gov), I get:
100 g Potatoes, Russet, flesh and skin, baked
contains 21.44 g starch
23% of 21.44 g starch converts to 4.9 g butyrate
Individual variation in gut microbiota, amylase, and health theoretically might affect these figures.
I'm not sure I understand all the figures, as there isn't much explanation of them, so let me know how you think it's supposed to be calculated.
Here's how Dr. Eades calculated butyrate at http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/: (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/:)
consume a half cup of cooked potato
produces 12.9 grams of carbohydrate (almost three teaspoons)
of which 10.5 grams are starch
If we go by our RD’s estimate that 5 percent of the total starch is resistant starch, we calculate that our half cup of potato contains about half a gram of resistant starch (0.5265 g to be exact)
[I think he makes an error here, so I'm replacing the rest of the calculation]
assuming 100 percent conversion to butyrate (which Eades says "isn’t the case because some is converted to other short chain fatty acids") results in .5 g of butyrate
Eades comments, "So, we eat our half cup of cooked potato, and what do we get? We get almost three teaspoons of sugar and carb that convert almost immediately to glucose and head directly into the bloodstream. The blood volume of a person with a normal blood sugar contains about a teaspoon of sugar, which means that consuming the potato almost quadruples the amount of sugar in the blood. The pancreas then secretes insulin to drive this excess sugar into the cells. This extra insulin then does all the things excess insulin is famous (or infamous) for doing.
But what about the butyrate from the resistant starch? Oh yeah, the 2.3 grams of butyrate. I don’t see how the butyrate is going to do much to stop the insulin spike resulting from the ingestion of the sugars and starch from the non-resistant starch part of the potato. And even if butyrate really does all it is cracked up to do, we wouldn’t really need the potato with all its accessory easily absorbed carb because we can get the equivalent amount of butyrate from a single pat of butter. (Or almost the same – a pat of butter contains 1.45 g butyrate. Two pats of butter contain 3 g or about 1.5 times the amount generated by the resistant starch component of the potato.)"
And he says, "In my opinion, it’s ‘resistant’ for a reason – it’s an anti-nutrient. I’ll post about anti-nutrients in the future. I would avoid resistant starch myself."
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@ Muhammad: Thanks. Yes, I know about soluble and insoluble fiber. Dr. Eades actually said that it's a third type of fiber, "resistant starch" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch)), that gets converted to butyrate.
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Here's what I found on Eades' connection of resistant starches to antinutrients...
The foods high in resistant starch are also high in antinutrients:
Navy beans
Green banana
Raw or cold cooked potato
Lentils
Cold pasta
Pearl barley
Oatmeal
Wholegrain bread
Main source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch)
"When potatoes are cooked, then cooled, resistant starch forms tight crystals. These crystals are broken up when the potato is reheated." (http://www.livestrong.com/article/317493-cold-cooked-potatoes-for-weight-loss/ (http://www.livestrong.com/article/317493-cold-cooked-potatoes-for-weight-loss/))
"The higher the amylose content of starch the greater its resistance to digestion because they form tighly packed granules in cells. Raw potato, green bananas, pulses and high amylose maize starch have a high amylose content." http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/info/articles/nutrients/resisstarch.htm (http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/info/articles/nutrients/resisstarch.htm)
"Seeds of C. ensiformis are known for their energy due to rich starch and amylose.... The percentage of digestible starch of C. gladiata is more than C. ensiformis and C. cathartica (Siddhuraju & Becker, 2001) and resistant starch is comparable to cultivated legumes (21–44%). Such low digestibility of starch is due to antinutritional factors such as phytic acid and polyphenols (Siddhuraju & Becker, 2001)." Nutritional and antinutritional signi?cance of four unconventional legumes of the genus Canavalia (http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/3004572/903303970/name/Nutritional%2Band%2Bantinutritional%2Bsignificance%2Bof%2Bfour%2Bunconventional%2Blegumes%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bgenus%2BCanavalia.pdf)
It doesn't sound like raw Paleo fare, folks. It sounds more like the opposite of raw Paleo. The only thing close to a raw Paleo food on the list is banana, and most raw Paleos advocate eating them very ripe, not green. It's too bad too, it sounded promising.
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It doesn't have to be starch specifically (though this one gives the most SCFAs), you could try with inulin as Muhammad.Sunshine, or pectin which is common in fruits like apples.
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Yeah, inulin would be more raw Paleo. Anyone have the butyrate conversion numbers for inulin food sources?
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. The only thing close to a raw Paleo food on the list is banana, and most raw Paleos advocate eating them very ripe, not green. It's too bad too, it sounded promising.
Well, oats are not particularly high in phytic acid, especially compared to beans and other grains. I don't recommend eating oats, though. They give me a small potbelly when I eat them.
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It's good to look at the big picture concerning prebiotics. Eating plenty of raw fruits and vegetables will keep you in good condition. Special root vegetables such as Chicory root, Jerusalem artichoke and Jicama have extremely high amounts of prebiotics, especially inulin. These roots are so rich they can be used in small amounts as supplements. However, they are very tasty (I've only had J.artichokes so far) and I enjoy them like regular food.
Regarding raw starch, I think that most of it ends up as food for the gut bacteria i.e. raw starch is resistant starch. A good source can be winter squashes which are technically fruits and probably safer than raw potatoes.
On a side note, prebiotics improve calcium absorption, maybe paleo people had good calcium levels in the absence of dairy because they had plenty of good gut bacteria. Roots and flowers are great sources of prebiotics, and were probably consumed frequently.
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I've tried those inulin foods and supplements and raw winter squashes and didn't care for any of them, nor notice any benefits. I found the raw winter squash particularly awful. Winter squash is allegedly supposed to require cooking, which I can believe after trying it raw and soaked and dried. Raw soaked sweet potato was tasty, though. Jicama is interesting in that it is a legume tuber. Legume tubers are commonly eaten by African hunter gatherers, so I was optimistic about it, but it wasn't for me.
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I'll add an interesting explanatory bit to this interesting thread that helped motivate me to experiment more with foods rich in starch and inulin, as did this explanation of why plant sources of butyrate are superior to butter from Prof. Stephan Guyenet, which makes sense and for which I've found confirmations from other sources, including scientific studies:
Stephan said...
Hi Senta and Ed,
Pastured butter seems to contain about the same amount of butyrate as grain-fed, surprisingly.
I'm not convinced that butter is an adequate substitute for SCFA production by intestinal bacteria. Butyrate in butter is absorbed in the small intestine, so it won't be concentrated in the bowel like it is when it's produced from fiber. The blood concentration will also be cyclical rather than stable as it is when it's produced in the gut. I don't know if that has implications for its effects. I see butter as a supplement to dietary fiber rather than a replacement.
December 12, 2009 at 6:03 PM
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html)
So even though butter has a higher concentration of butyric acid than that in starchy plants, and even though it's more digestible on its own, most of it doesn't get to the part of the anatomy where it's most needed.
I'll post about my experiments in my journal.
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Since you're playing the game, you might try leek leaves, the big Dark green ones, and jerusalem artichokes.
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Thanks, Van. I've been keeping my eyes peeled for Jerusalem artichokes, but haven't seen any, nor any leek leaves. Sounds like you've got a lot of interesting foods available to you.
On the bright side, the farmers' markets around here have been growing and providing a better variety of foods. That aren't quite the huge embarrassment they once were, but still have a long way to go, and the small number Asian and other ethnic markets around here are a joke--lots of packaged and canned foods and not much else.
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Jerusalem artichokes grow like weeds. if you can get them and find they are useful foods I would suggest storing a bulb in your fridge through the winter and planting them somewhere. they are not very flavorful, kind of like water chestnuts
I have some growing in my parents easement, wish I could harvest them for you.
jicama is one of the only sweet tasting foods I can eat, I love it but it is not very commonly grown organically, I have only seen that once in the last 15 years. the conventional is hit or miss, some brands are actually ok, you have to look for the ones that aren't shellacked with wax
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Hi Phil, if you want some jerusalem artichokes get in touch with me. I have a bunch growing in my front yard, and would be happy to hook you up this fall. You can dig them up fresh.
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Thanks Eric. Do you notice any benefits from them?
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I can't say that I do. I haven't eaten any since moving in. In the past when I've eaten them they gave me gas, so I stopped. I might try fermenting some this fall when harvest time comes.
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Update:
Muhammad was definitely right and I was wrong, initially, about resistant starch. Hat tip to Muhammad for recognizing the importance of resistant starch early on.
I'm convinced that resistant starch is just as characteristic of "raw Paleo" foods as inulin, and RS has been more beneficial for me. Don't let the word "starch" fool you. RS is nothing like ordinary easily-digestible starch. RS is converted into fat instead of glucose.
The benefits of resistant starch are probably one of the strongest cases for eating raw Paleo, as the richest sources of resistant starch are wild and raw, especially raw fermented (there are those magic words again that keep coming up again and again - "raw fermented") or raw dried or raw frozen, or some combination of those.
If interested in resistant starch, read all you can by Tatertot Tim, aka Otzi, on the subject. He's basically the most knowledgeable guy on the Internet on the topic and he recently had his gut microbiome analyzed and he reported that it was the best ever analyzed by the lab. I have found his advice and info to be helpful and fascinating. You should be able to find some of his writings/postings via Google. He's not a rawist, though he does eat lots of raw foods.
A clarification: winter squashes and sweet potatoes are rich in inulin (I think), but not in resistant starch. Here's Tatertot's list of RS-rich foods (don't let the neolithic ones scare you, there are some Paleo and near-Paleo ones):
http://freetheanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Resistant-Starch-in-Foods.pdf (http://freetheanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Resistant-Starch-in-Foods.pdf)
Indian and Eskimo wild potatoes (some of which are edible raw) grow in North America as well as South America and are another good source of RS. I must learn more about them some day. There are also African wild tubers and "false bananas" that are likely rich in RS which are unfortunately not available in the USA, to my knowledge, and probably not Europe.
I tried Jerusalem artichokes and didn't care for them.
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What are your "more resistant-starch-rich raw Paleo foods" ?
> dried raw green plantains (I used to eat them super-ripe, but found they were quite harmful for me that way if I ate more than a smidgen and I've discovered that I am most sensitive to glucose out of all the carbs; now I take the opposite course and try to get them as green as I can :P ); the very green ones are like bland crackers when dried and if you let them ripen for two or three days you can get a little bit of sweetness while probably preserving a fair amount of the RS, though the greener they are, the more RS there will be
> raw semi-green bananas or dried raw organic very-green bananas (don't touch the flesh with your fingers or eat them undried--the very-green ones are VERY sticky and astringent when they're moist)
> small amounts of raw fingerling potatoes (my favorite variety is purple Peruvian, and the Russian banana variety is OK - but people who aren't used to raw potatoes probably won't like even these; and yeah, I know, most people don't regard any potatoes as "Paleo," ... to each their own; I try to avoid varieties for which even small amounts sting my mouth and throat, as I figure that probably means I'm more sensitive to the natural plant toxins in those)
On days that I don't get enough RS from whole raw foods, I add Bob's Red Mill unmodified potato starch. The expert on the stuff, Tatertot Tim, says he checked with Bob's and found that their unmodified potato starch is not heated enough to be considered cooked. It seems to have been particularly effective in lowering my BG.
I also use tapioca flour, though Tim is not sure how much that is heated and how much RS is in it. I've also recently been experimenting with some lightly cooked RS-rich foods (I won't get into that here, as it's off-topic for this subforum).
two things phil, what do you attribute the starch foods in helping lower you fbg?
The "beautiful butyrate" that is generated as a result of eating foods rich in fermentable fibers, especially resistant starch (not other forms of starch).
and is everything else consistent, for I remember you eating a fair amount of fermented honey at times? And might you be substituting your starch foods for some amounts of protein which I believe could lower ones fbg's , as would substituting fat for extra protein.
I tried lowering my protein and upping the fat and that didn't help in my case, though it did help Jimmy Moore. Maybe if I used the expensive testing equipment he used it might have worked better for me, I don't know. Resistant starch has been a quick, easy and cheap solution for me, with the only downside being excessive fartage when I overdo it, :P which is quite a contrast from the near-absence of fartage I had when eating very little RS and can be humorous at times, but is not overly concerning to me and I find it happens less with increasing adaptation over the weeks since increasing my RS intake.
By extra protein, I mean that to be any amount not needed by the body for maintenance and repair. Lex eating one meal a day imo falls into that category, as the body can only utilize so much protein at any given meal, or so I've read. I don't have direct experience with that though.
Yes, though Lex is so far not concerned by his high FBG. LC advocates refer to it as "physiological insulin resistance" and many claim that it's totally benign. I'm not so sure about that in the longer run. One thing that puzzled me is that I haven't seen a single case of any population eating a wild Paleo diet reported having high FBG numbers, even those with the lowest carb intakes. When I learned about "Eskimo potatoes," it seemed it might be one of the missing puzzle pieces, though I didn't understand why until I learned more about RS.
Note: not all soluble fibers are fermentable and not all fermentable fibers are soluble. Tatertot Tim has answered every question about this and other aspects of the topic that you could probably ever possibly imagine.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tatertot+%22resistant+starch%22 (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tatertot+%22resistant+starch%22)
Another benefit I seem to be getting from RS is less need for P5P supplements. I agree with the many people who advocate trying to get your nutrients from foods rather than supplements and RS appears to be helping with that.
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I'm glad it's working for you, Phil. I know I'd have stomach cramps for half the night if I ate green plantain, but I'm glad it works for you.
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I must attest to my personal beneficial experience as well. At first I started with the green plantains dried on a rack which gave me excessive gas and small stomach cramps and shortly after added in bobs red mill potato starch which increased the gas. After 5 weeks in it has become some of my favorite foods. I love green plantains and the way they make me feel. I have been mixing my potato starch with fermented coconut water, since I believed I was dairy intolerant, and am AMAZED at how good it makes me feel. It gives me such a euphoric and uplifted feelings having this drink in the mornings. Plus it completely takes away the constant hunger feeling I used to have prior to this. It has also stopped my cravings for coffee. I used to crave coffee in the mornings and would substitute hot water with coconut oil and/or lemon all the while still craving coffee. I have no interest in coffee what soever now. I kept meaning to thank you phil, just for sharing your experience because it inspired me to research into it. I am really thankful for everyone on this forum for sharing their experience for IMO that is the only true way to learn. Anyway RS is a staple in my diet as is Raw fat, and raw liver, and raw bones. IMO those are my most important and life giving foods right now. On days that I consume all four I feel truly blessed to have ascended from the various diseases and ailments I have been afflicted with all my life, until now :)
So I give RS a +1 !!
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I'm glad it's working for you, Phil. I know I'd have stomach cramps for half the night if I ate green plantain, but I'm glad it works for you.
I probably would too if I didn't thoroughly dry them first so that there is zero astringency. They're very different when they're thoroughly dried. I find Bob's potato starch even easier to deal with, though it's a bit gritty if I only mix it in water.
I must attest to my personal beneficial experience as well. At first I started with the green plantains dried on a rack which gave me excessive gas and small stomach cramps and shortly after added in bobs red mill potato starch which increased the gas. After 5 weeks in it has become some of my favorite foods. I love green plantains and the way they make me feel. I have been mixing my potato starch with fermented coconut water, since I believed I was dairy intolerant, and am AMAZED at how good it makes me feel. It gives me such a euphoric and uplifted feelings having this drink in the mornings. Plus it completely takes away the constant hunger feeling I used to have prior to this. It has also stopped my cravings for coffee. I used to crave coffee in the mornings and would substitute hot water with coconut oil and/or lemon all the while still craving coffee. I have no interest in coffee what soever now. I kept meaning to thank you phil, just for sharing your experience because it inspired me to research into it. I am really thankful for everyone on this forum for sharing their experience for IMO that is the only true way to learn. Anyway RS is a staple in my diet as is Raw fat, and raw liver, and raw bones. IMO those are my most important and life giving foods right now. On days that I consume all four I feel truly blessed to have ascended from the various diseases and ailments I have been afflicted with all my life, until now :)
So I give RS a +1 !!
You're welcome, Paperclips. Glad it's working for you. I also found it took some weeks to adapt to and that it helps to start out slowly, say with the equivalent of 1 tsp to 1 tbsp per day of total RS, and to try to not go over the equivalent of 4 tbsp or so per day to avoid excess fartage. ;D
I notice more energy throughout the day from resistant starch. I find myself getting the urge to sprint around. With the increased energy and well being from RS and P5P, I'm also finding less urge to drink coffee.
Raw fat, raw liver, and raw bones are all elements in my diet too. I go somewhat easy on the liver now, though, as a precaution, because of the high copper content and my pyroluria-type symptoms.
A caveat to others - I recommend that folks read up on RS before trying it and don't rush into anything just because I report some success. I think it helps avoid mistakes and increase comfort level if folks extensively research something themselves before trying it.
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I definitely agree starting out slowly. It was not like my first experience with raw meat where I could eat tons of the stuff anytime and feel like running a marathon afterwards. I once ate a whole raw sweet potato early on in the trials and experienced way too much gas and uncomfortable digestion. I haven't tried it again although I would bet it would digest a lot easier. I can now eat 4 tablespoons potato starch in one sitting and only feel comfortably full :)
I am also curios if I can go into ketosis now, my first experience with ketosis proved disastrous.
I really hope to one day try poi as well.
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ok, probably a stupid question, but is raw butter not a source?
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Im still not very clear on precisely what is RS. Is it just a catch all praise that includes all plant starches that are resistant to being broken down in the small intestines?
The list on the link seems to be centered around grains, starchy roots, plantains and legumes.
Are there differences between the indigestible fiber of Plantains to that of coconut, or other tree nuts and seeds?
I have eaten bits of raw sun-chokes, and other RS foods but it seems if I eat more than just a little I get very bloaty. This is in regards to all starchy foods in general seeds, nuts, roots, grains ect.
Even raw coconut if I eat more than a little will have the same effect, which is why I eat coconut butter, for some reason dehydrated coconut is not an issue with me.
Prehaps there are enzyme inhibitors with some RS foods which have to either be cooked, soaked, fermented, or dehydrated before the bacteria flora of the gut can utilize them.
There must be antibacterial properties of RS foods which make them resistant to being broken down enigmatically in their Raw state.
Perhaps with continued ingestion of RS the gut does begin to build up the bacterial flora and enzymatic production required to assimilate such foods?
There has to be a number of other factors to explain why some people can eat extremely large amounts of these foods without an issue, while others have a bad reaction to very small amounts.
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http://freetheanimal.com/tag/resistant-starch (http://freetheanimal.com/tag/resistant-starch)
Interesting stuff on the subject here.
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ok, probably a stupid question, but is raw butter not a source?
LOL We think alike. Butter (and suet, etc.) is the first thing I brought up in this thread. I learned that fermentable fiber, especially resistant starch, is a much better source of butyrate than butter. Thank goodness I kept an open mind and didn't just dismiss resistant starch.
http://freetheanimal.com/tag/resistant-starch (http://freetheanimal.com/tag/resistant-starch)
Interesting stuff on the subject here.
Yeah, Tatertot Tim, the uber-expert on resistant starch, provided Richard with a lot of info and both of them wrote interesting stuff on the topic, including reports of their own experience. They've already answered any question you could ever imagine many times over. If you don't find an answer to a question, Tatertot is very helpful in answering them.
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Sharing my instinctive experience, you can do a search here when i was craving raw starch and it just so happened i found my cravings quenched by Jicama / singkamas and Yacon. Which we now have as part of our family's diet.
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Sharing my instinctive experience, you can do a search here when i was craving raw starch and it just so happened i found my cravings quenched by Jicama / singkamas and Yacon. Which we now have as part of our family's diet.
That's great, GS. Those foods are rich in inulin, which is another good fermentable fiber, rather than resistant starch. Resistant starch reportedly generates even more beautiful butyrate than inulin. Some foods rich in resistant starch include green plantains and unmodified plantain flour, green bananas and unmodified banana flour, potatoes and unmodified potato starch. Bob's Red Mill unmodified potato starch is raw by most standards. Raw potato starch is the richest known source of resistant starch. I also find it to be the easiest to deal with and one of the cheapest sources at under $4/lb in my local supermarket (though green plantains are cheaper). You can also buy organic unmodified potato starch for a higher price.
Some other sources of RS include garbanzo/chickpea beans and hummus and flour, lentils, oats and wild African foods that are generally unavailable outside of Africa, unfortunately (such as false bananas and various wild African tubers). These foods can probably be eaten raw, though most of them should be properly prepared first with drying and/or fermenting, which increases both the edibility and the RS. Freezing can also increase the edibility and RS in at least some of them, including potatoes.
Garbanzo beans and lentils are legumes and some don't consider any legumes to be "Paleo," though humans have been eating them for millions of years, including raw for most of that time. I was curious to try garbanzo/chickpea flour and found I seem to tolerate it, even though I tend to have problems with legumes. I'm guessing that much of the lectins are removed, though I'm not sure. I doubt it's raw, so it probably wouldn't appeal to many here.
Oats are generally regarded as not-Paleo, though some Paleo and Primal-Blueprint dieters added small amounts of them after they found that they could tolerate them once they included more RS in their diets.
Tatertot Tim, who eats plenty of foods rich in both RS and inulin, recently had his gut fecal bacteria analyzed and he reported that it was the best the American gut project ever measured:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514-42.html#post1366157 (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514-42.html#post1366157)
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514-46.html#post1369765 (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514-46.html#post1369765)
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514-46.html#post1369960 (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514-46.html#post1369960)
This video shows Bushmen people eating raw tubers after 6:05:
The Hunters - PREVIEW (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsaXQ0crny8#)
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Here's an interesting study that finds cooking to have a "negligible effect" on the nutritional value of Hadza tubers:
Negligible effect of cooking on nutritional value of Hadza tubers, http://www.eshe.eu/files/Schnorr.pdf (http://www.eshe.eu/files/Schnorr.pdf)
> High simple sugars make raw consumption feasible and cooking unnecessary
> The results indicate high intra-species variation in nutrition availability with low impact from brief roasting.
One of the possible reasons given for briefly roasting tubers posited in this study was "faster peeling," which matches what was reported in a science documentary about Bushmen years ago. A Bushman was asked if they briefly roast tubers for taste or digestibility and he said no, that it was just to make them easier to peel and that they often eat them raw.
The study used a machine that simulates human digestion and it confirmed that the brief cooking that the Hadza used doesn't do much to the nutritional value of the food, contrary to Wrangham's hypothesis about cooking tubers being of major nutritional importance.
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i've had good results with rs myself, so not knocking it in the least bit, but what say you to this
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/ (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/)
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Interesting. I have not tried rs myself yet because it feels so unnatural. Those things does not grow here naturally this time of the year, or not at all... bananas.. potatoes.. beans... those are not even wild foods. I could believe wild tubers would be of benefit but here in the north they are very hard to get and small! I have tried! And only in summertime of course. And some powder... I would rather do without.
Now, I think high meat is the way to go :) and all kind of wild berries and greens and such in summer and fall! No restrictions ;)
I bet when we eat fresh RAF with lots of good quality fat (no rancid PUFAs) and wild edibles, mushrooms and organs - everything amazing that nature offers we will do just fine
I am careful because the rs might have a downside... I have to admit I am no expert, and I might be wrong too. This is just what my intuition tells me....
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Inger, this is off topic, but do you include fat in your high meat? And what animal meat do you make high meat?
Is your raw animal quality FAT always fresh? Or you keep it fresh by freezing? Or it can just stay refrigerated for 1 or 2 weeks?
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I believe Inger is right.
RS can be more trouble than its worth, especially for the more carnivorous ones among us.
The gut flora that feeds on RS is not compatible with the bacteria that thrives on raw flesh.
Personally high meat works better than anything else to optimize my digestion.
...
GS.
I use to make all lean high meat.... until I got a wild hair and cut up some fatty connective tissue that connected the liver to the torso and high meat with it.
It turned out good, and the rancid fat is fine so long as it is eating in small amounts,
I like my primary fat to be as fresh as possible, and will keep it frozen.
I now also let my fatty meat dry age under a fan. The fat will melt slightly giving it a wonderful flavor. As long as the room temp is cool and there is constant airflow the fatty chunks of meat can sit on the rack for well over a week without getting rancid.
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Thanks Sabertooth,
My notes into eating these raw starches I now incorporate into my diet.
Jicama / Singkamas is traditionally eaten raw with some salt or something salty like raw fermented fish or raw fermented tiny shrimp we Filipinos traditionally call "bagoong". During Singkamas season it is everywhere and too cheap.
Yacon is imported from elsewhere but now planted in the Philippines so it is local. Usually sold in organic shops. Very juicy, very delicious raw. Just remove the skin. When refrigerated cold it is very refreshing. My wife buys this regularly and we serve during breakfast sometimes.
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high meat doesn't work for me, but aged does. i've found i'm highly sensitive to high histamine foods, which explains why fermented things make me extremely ill in compared to the fresh form, including dairy and high meat.
i'd rather eat high meat, but rs works much better for me. my gi tract is very happy with it. with more than a very small portion of high meat i will have return of gi symptoms.
whatever gives you right bm's… eat that one ;D
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Note regarding the diference in reaction.
Ioanna
When using highmeat I wont eat any other carb containing foods with it at all, and it could be that highmeat doesnt mix well with something else you are eating. Gut ecology is a very personalized balancing act and so its hard to generalize across the board, but for me personally I can not mix fibrous foods with highmeat, or else I will have bad reactions as well.
I believe that Fermented RS is at odds with highmeat when mixed together. The bacterial cultures just arnt very compatible, This is just a theory and I would like anyone who can in fact eat a moderate amount of highmeat along with RS foods without any issue to speak up and share your story.
Im sure that there are people who can indeed handle both, because after all some humans are like possums and can eat anything, but for many people recovering from chronic digestive insufficiency I think mixing RS and highmeat may cause issues
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I believe that Fermented RS is at odds with highmeat when mixed together. The bacterial cultures just arnt very compatible, This is just a theory and I would like anyone who can in fact eat a moderate amount of highmeat along with RS foods without any issue to speak up and share your story.
A lot of meats are sprayed with anti bacterial agents after being slaughtered to kill bacteria per USDA standards. Doesn't that sort of destroy the starter bacteria that would naturally be present on the meat? Maybe that's a reason why some of us don't do so well on high meat.
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I would like anyone who can in fact eat a moderate amount of highmeat along with RS foods without any issue to speak up and share your story...
I can handle high meat with resistant starch, as long as the RS is fermented (or fermenting). It's very common for me to eat high liver with a few mouthfuls of fermented vegetables, which have a fair amount of resistant starch.
I think DaBoss88 might be onto something regarding the spray. I generally use organs that I've gathered by helping friends slaughter live animals (steer, sheep) or from hunting, so these organs have never been through an inspected slaughter house or packing plant. They always ferment nicely (high meat is fermented meat, as near as I can tell), and the bacterial colonies seem to do fine in my belly when mixed with the bacterial ecology common to fermented plant foods.
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i only just in these recent months started experimenting with resistant starches. i have all this time (2+ year-ish) been eating meats and animal fats. the first year was pretty much entirely that, and then i kept trying to introduce new foods with some hits and several misses along the way. i've tried high meat on several occasions when carbs weren't even in my dietary repertoire, probably with the very occasional exception of raw honey. it was the same every time. a little bit of high meat would be ok. a little bit more, and i'm not so well. fresh raw dairy is fine. kefir is an absolute disaster! i could never understand why until now.
unlike eric, i CANNOT eat fermented RS. i cannot eat fermented anything! :'(
i like daboss' thinking, but my experience doesn't support that theory. although not doing well with high meat, i for some reason i do very well with aged meat. something must be different, the bacteria may be different.
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i like daboss' thinking, but my experience doesn't support that theory. although not doing well with high meat, i for some reason i do very well with aged meat. something must be different, the bacteria may be different.
There's also the possibility of ferments not doing so well because they need an aerobic environment, and realistically a large portion of any jar of high meat will be virtually unexposed to air. That's been my experience when putting the recommended 1/4-1/2 jar. Even circulating the meat once or twice daily, only a small portion of the meat is exposed to air. I wonder what it would be like if it was hung as it would be to make aged meat, only in conditions that would make high meat (ie. the temperature).
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There's also the possibility of ferments not doing so well because they need an aerobic environment, and realistically a large portion of any jar of high meat will be virtually unexposed to air...
Not true. Fermentation requires an anaerobic environment. Meat aged in an aerobic environment will be aged, but not fermented. When I make 'high' meat, I fill a jar 90% full and only open the lid often enough to prevent the jar from exploding as bacteria release gases as they ferment the sugars in the meat. This ends up being frequently early on, maybe every few days, but less frequently later, maybe once every 10 days. After a few months, I don't have to open the jar but once each month.
Those who make 'high' meat in an aerobic environment might be making something nutritionally useful, but they aren't fermenting their meat. When the Inuit made high meat by burying large animals and returning months later to eat the organs, they weren't making their 'high' meat aerobically. The internal organs and much of the muscle meat spent more of their time anaerobic than aerobic.
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i've had good results with rs myself, so not knocking it in the least bit, but what say you to this
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/ (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/resistant-starch/)
I linked to the same article early in this thread. :) I took it seriously at first, as you can tell by my early posts in this thread, but there wasn't a lot of evidence in it, and I noticed at least one error, IIRC, so I did some more looking and found loads and loads of evidence suggesting that resistant starch is beneficial and explaining how it works and that it has been a part of the human and pre-human diet for millions of years. I'm so glad I didn't stop looking after reading that article.
Dr. Eades eventually candidly acknowledged in a polite response to Richard Nikoley: "I don’t really know anything about resistant starch," in the comments at http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/gerdacid-reflux/gerd-treat-low-high-carb-diet (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/gerdacid-reflux/gerd-treat-low-high-carb-diet) and said he'll take another look at RS when he has the time.
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There aren't many wild foods sold in American markets today. Are bananas, potatoes and beans any less descended from wild foods than other popular market foods? Broccoli isn't wild and didn't exist in its current form 10,000 years ago--should I avoid it because of that? I do think it makes sense to try to eat some wild foods, like Inger does, and I do eat some. And as always I'm not telling anyone what to eat, just sharing what I've learned and my experience, FWIW.
I find I do better by including more RS myself, but I'm not big on evangelizing the skeptical, as I think it's best to try something from a place of knowledge, confidence and positivity, rather than uncertainty, doubt or fear. Good luck to everyone with whatever path you each take.
Raw jicama, singkamas, sauerkraut and kimchi are sources of inulin, rather than RS. Other inulin sources include onion, dandelion root, burdock root, leeks, and asparagus. Some raw RS sources are raw green plantains and raw plantain starch, raw green bananas and raw banana starch, raw young fingerling potatoes (yes, I've found some of them to be palatable with so far no noticeable negative effects) and raw potato starch, raw fermented garbanzo beans and raw GB flour. I'm not sure how raw the bagged flours aside from potato starch are, but I at least haven't noticed any problems from any of them, whereas very-ripe plantains and bananas (rich in glucose) give me major problems. Glucose sensitivity seems to be one of my biggest problems. It took quite a while for me to narrow that down, because most of the focus in the Paleo world is on fructose or starch as the problems (especially fructose), with glucose often being regarded as safer (such as by Paul Jaminet) and with fructose targeted as a "Neolithic Agent of Disease." For me it's the opposite, glucose appears to be much more of a problem for me than fructose, at least in the short-term.
One of the key aspects of RS I wasn't aware of early on, is that colon bacteria continue to generate butyrate from it long after one has finished eating the RS, so that I get steady, clear energy from it throughout the day and it also helps one to sleep through the night (as the brain doesn't run out of energy and signal the body to wake up to get more), though that wasn't a significant problem for me, and improves sleep quality. The beneficial bacteria are like little butyrate factories that can run 24 hours a day. With butter and other animal fats, the available butyrate is less long-lasting.
Inulin and RS are similar but quite different. I didn't get as much benefit from inulin-rich foods as I got from RS, though I think my stomach digestion improved a little bit with raw sauerkraut and I still eat that and other inulin-rich foods. Who knows, maybe I'll learn about a better way to utilize inulin therapeutically in the future, like a raw inulin powder or try again to make my own sauerkraut or something like that. I did also try inulin tablets in the past and didn't notice any benefits from those, though I didn't test my BG at the time, and I didn't have a glucometer then. I may test that some day in the future for comparison.
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I've never noticed any of the food combining problems that other folks talk about. Maybe I'm lucky that way.
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Iguana explained in the past that the protein portion of meats is what ferments, while the fats do not. In the example of raw fermented fish oil, the protein is fermented in order to separate and preserve the oil. Some say that antioxidants in properly fermented animal foods like raw fermented cod liver oil prevent the fats from going rancid. I posted what I found on that in a discussion of RFCLO. The RFCLO only went rancid on me once when there wasn't much left and I left it out of the fridge too long in unusually warm summer weather. Of course, it's hard for most Americans to understand the difference between fermented and rancid, which both sound "rotten" to many, but I certainly could taste the difference. :) I've decided that I haven't noticed significant enough benefits from RFCLO to justify the cost, and people with pyroluria symptoms reportedly tend to produce omega 3 too easily and accumulate too much, so I doubt I'll buy any more of it. I did come to like the strong fish taste, though even that mellowed with time and got a bit boring.
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Eric's correct that probiotic microbes that can make it to your colon require a (mostly) anaerobic environment, because the colon is mostly anaerobic. A former member here who is quite experienced and knowledgeable in fermentation named Satya set me straight on this. I don't know where Aajonus got his ideas on "high meat." They don't match anything I've seen reported regarding traditional Eskimo or Scandinavian practices or by Satya.
The meat I processed using Aajonus' recommended "high meat" method with relatively frequent airing out did get broken down into fluid eventually. My best guess is that this was due to mostly aerobic bacteria, but highly aerobic bacteria cannot survive in the colon for long, if they manage to make it that far.
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I linked to the same article early in this thread.
-X -\ -[ :o
sorry! ???
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Here are the top foods listed high in butyric acid. You can see why it was named after butter.
Foods High in Butyric acid
http://wholefoodcatalog.info/nutrient/butyric_acid/foods/high/ (http://wholefoodcatalog.info/nutrient/butyric_acid/foods/high/)
Foods High in Butyric acid (per 100g edible portion)
Fermented butter
2900 mg
Unsalted butter
2700 mg
Salted butter
2700 mg
Cream(milk fat)
1500 mg
Whipping cream(milk fat)
1200 mg
Natural cheese(cheddar)
1100 mg
Natural cheese(cream)
1100 mg
Natural cheese(emmental)
1100 mg
Natural cheese(gouda)
970 mg
Coffee whitener(powder, milk fat)
950 mg
Whole milk powder
940 mg
Process cheese
900 mg
Cheese spread
840 mg
Natural cheese(edam)
810 mg
Natural cheese(camambert)
780 mg
Natural cheese(blue)
760 mg
Butter cake
730 mg
Natural cheese(parmesan)
730 mg
Cream(milk and vegetable fat)
730 mg
Whipping cream(milk and vegetable fat)
620 mg
Coffee whitener(liquid, milk fat)
540 mg
Biscuit(soft)
440 mg
Ice cream(high fat)
370 mg
Ice milk
360 mg
Coffee whitener(liquid, milk and vegetable fat)
270 mg
Evaporated whole milk
260 mg
Ice cream(regular)
250 mg
Condensed whole milk, sweetened
220 mg
Butterscotch
210 mg
Bavarian cream
180 mg
So, taking into consideration the health benefits of butyrate in cheese and cream, how do you rate the health value of (1) batch pasteurized, non-homogenized, grass-fed, organic whipping cream (sold in grocery) and (2) truly raw pasture-raised cow cheese (say, gruyere style) from small farms?
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I don't know. I'd test the foods myself like I normally do. Given my past experience, I'd guess I'd probably handle the raw cheese better.
FYI: Tatertot Tim reported that he suspects that Bob's tapioca flour is processed with too much heat to contain much RS. The evidence is strong that their unmodified potato starch contains plenty of RS, so that's a safer choice.
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Eric
I am curious as to exactly what fermented RS vegetables you consume.... perhaps all RS vegetables are not the same
By fermenting your meat and eating fermented vegetables you may have built up a very unique combination of G.I. flora which allows you to tolerate food combinations that many others here cannot?
I would also want to know more about how the Inuit traditionally made highmeat,
Does anyone have any good info regarding this?
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From what I recall, the Inuit buried their raw meat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igunaq, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igunaq,) so that it was largely anaerobic (though not 100% so), rather than aerobic.
Plus, tradtional Eskimos liked raw (or nearly so) wild tubers!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_potato (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_potato)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubenacadie,_Nova_Scotia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubenacadie,_Nova_Scotia)
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The first hit that the search I provided earlier in the thread is this summary of info on resistant starch:
http://freetheanimal.com/tag/resistant-starch (http://freetheanimal.com/tag/resistant-starch)
There's plenty of evidence suggesting that all the fermentable fibers are beneficial and different. It doesn't make sense to avoid one of them just because it has the scary word "starch" in it, especially given that it appears to be the most beneficial of all.
(http://freetheanimal.com/images/2014/01/1486869-684065761638517-1734154848-n.jpg)
"RESISTANT STARCH are DNA shaped carbs. ... The energetics and molecular shapes are extraordinary. ... it is ... what sets it apart from ordinary fiber NSP and obviously glucose/fructose/FODMAPs and our own endogenously produced fucose which we make on the tips of our microvilli for the microcritters to graze on when food is lacking"
The oligosacs prebiotics are NOTHING IN COMPARISON to double helices of amylose+amylopectin. And our co-evolved dirt based creatures that live in our gut know that. They ride these dirt-covered tubers and whole grains as spores or live bacteria, traverse protected like nomads on their camels or horses across the harsh desert terrain (pH2, gastric acid, pepsin, trypsin, enzyme breakdown, harsh bile acids, detergents threaten), then finally arrive to the large intestines which lacking in oxygen like the moon however it is teaming with their desert tribes, synbionts, many lifeforms and co-feeders, grazing grounds, water and lush food everywhere…. After feasting, they go back to the soil, their home returning to their dirt tribes and land of roots, shoots, moist dirt until the next generation’s journey. It’s a circle, no?
Resistant Starch - A Review
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1541-4337.2006.tb00076.x/pdf (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1541-4337.2006.tb00076.x/pdf)
It’s a food science article with great visual diagrams.
- Dr. B.G., http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/dramatic-resistant-success.html#comment-546907 (http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/dramatic-resistant-success.html#comment-546907)
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Can we rename this thread?
"Fantastic Health Benefits of Butyrate"
to
"Fantastic Health Benefits of Butyrate / Resistant Starch" ?
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I don't see why not. I don't think Muhammad would mind.
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Here's an interesting study that finds cooking to have a "negligible effect" on the nutritional value of Hadza tubers:
One of the possible reasons given for briefly roasting tubers posited in this study was "faster peeling," which matches what was reported in a science documentary about Bushmen years ago. A Bushman was asked if they briefly roast tubers for taste or digestibility and he said no, that it was just to make them easier to peel and that they often eat them raw.
The study used a machine that simulates human digestion and it confirmed that the brief cooking that the Hadza used doesn't do much to the nutritional value of the food, contrary to Wrangham's hypothesis about cooking tubers being of major nutritional importance.
Very interesting!
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Phil, still don't see the difference between what's labeled or tested as RS and any undigested unresistant starch or sugar that makes it to the colon? Any clues or direct understanding would be appreciated.
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Hi Van,
The unique shape (and size and structure) of resistant starches that I mentioned above is one difference. Here is more info on it.
Resistant starch granules have a fractal surface and porous structure and apparently have higher fractal dimensions than more easily digested starches:
Structure and enzymatic resistivity of debranched high temperature?pressure treated high-amylose corn starch (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0733521012002627)
Fractal Structure of Deformed Potato Starch and Its Sorption Characteristics - ResearchGate (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/230159282_Fractal_Structure_of_Deformed_Potato_Starch_and_Its_Sorption_Characteristics)
Fractal dimension and rheological properties of cereal starches
http://www.old.international-agrophysics.org/en/issues.html?stan=detail&vol=25&numer=3&paper=936&i=7 (http://www.old.international-agrophysics.org/en/issues.html?stan=detail&vol=25&numer=3&paper=936&i=7)
A fractal analysis approach for predicting starch retrogradation from X-ray diffractograms - Utrilla-Coello - 2013 - Starch - St[]rke - Wiley Online Library (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/star.201300040/abstract)
The unique shape, size and structure of RS apparently makes it a better food than other prebiotics for certain beneficial bacteria, whereas the most harmful bacteria latch onto it but can't digest it, and thus are carried harmlessly out with the poop. :) Thus, it is also anti-infective and in a sense a detoxifier.
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It turns out that there are lots of starchy foods that are edible raw and would qualify as "raw Paleo" by most definitions, despite the popular urban legend that there aren't. Most of them probably contain significant amounts of resistant starch. Unfortunately, many of them are not commonly sold in the northern USA. Here are some more examples:
Tigernuts
Tigernuts are sedge tubers rich in starch and edible raw, so they may contain resistant starch. They are used in a popular raw drink in Spain called horchata de chufa: http://spanishfood.about.com/od/spanishfoodfaqs/f/horcatadechufa.htm (http://spanishfood.about.com/od/spanishfoodfaqs/f/horcatadechufa.htm)
Tiger Nuts Milk (Kunun Aya or Horchata de Chufas) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYU0_LZtx-I#ws)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_esculentus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_esculentus)
Tiger Nut
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/tiger_nut (http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/tiger_nut)
These are not nuts, but the dried, shrivelled, brown tubers of a plant. They have a chewy texture and a sweet, nutty flavour reminiscent of coconut. They are grown in China and various African countries, and their size ranges from small to extra-large. They are very popular in Spain, where they’re known as chufa.
Buyer's guide
Buy tiger nuts from health food shops, delis, food halls, Spanish, Chinese or African grocers, old-fashioned confectioners, or even shops selling fishing equipment (tiger nuts are also used as fishing bait).
According to some scientists, tigernuts may have been an important part of the Stone Age raw Paleo diet:
Ancient human ancestor 'Nutcracker Man' lived on tiger nuts
Science 09 Jan 14
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2014/140109_1.html (http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2014/140109_1.html)
An Oxford University study has concluded that our ancient ancestors who lived in East Africa between 2.4 million and 1.4 million years ago survived mainly on a diet of tiger nuts.
Tiger nuts are edible grass bulbs still eaten in parts of the world today.
The study, published in the journal PLOS One, also suggests that these early hominins may have sought additional nourishment from fruits and invertebrates such as worms and grasshoppers.
...
Dr Macho, from the School of Archaeology at Oxford University, said: 'I believe that the theory – that 'Nutcracker Man' lived on large amounts of tiger nuts – helps settle the debate about what our early human ancestor ate. On the basis of recent isotope results, these hominins appear to have survived on a diet of C4 foods, which suggests grasses and sedges. Yet these are not high quality foods. What this research tells us is that hominins were selective about the part of the grass that they ate, choosing the grass bulbs at the base of the grass blade as the mainstay of their diet.
'Tiger nuts, still sold in health food shops as well as being widely used for grinding down and baking in many countries, would be relatively easy to find. They also provided a good source of nourishment for a medium-sized hominin with a large brain. This is why these hominins were able to survive for around one million years because they could successfully forage – even through periods of climatic change.'
Lucuma fruit
Someone speculated that lucuma fruit may also contain RS, as it is starchy (http://www.lucuma.com/lucumafruit.asp (http://www.lucuma.com/lucumafruit.asp)). It is edible raw and is used as a sweetener by rawists.
Among the fruits studied the highest IF [insoluble fiber] content was found in lucuma, palo variety
Fibra dietaria en variedades peruanas de frutas, tubérculos, cereales y leguminosas
Rev. Soc. Quím. Perú v.74 n.1 Lima ene./mar. 2008
http://www.scielo.org.pe/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1810-634X2008000100006 (http://www.scielo.org.pe/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1810-634X2008000100006)
Fresh vs Dry Lucuma Fruit - 100% natural fruit raw food sweetener (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHxJCss-tmE#)
Chinese Water Chestnut
Tigernuts are related to Chinese water chestnuts, and CWC are known to contain RS: http://journals.ohiolink.edu/ejc/search.cgi?q=keywords:%22Chinese%20water%20chestnut%20starch%20gels%22 (http://journals.ohiolink.edu/ejc/search.cgi?q=keywords:%22Chinese%20water%20chestnut%20starch%20gels%22)
They are also edible raw, though there is a concern about parasitic flukes: http://morselsandmusings.blogspot.com/2007/02/chinese-new-year-pork-festival.html (http://morselsandmusings.blogspot.com/2007/02/chinese-new-year-pork-festival.html)
Breadfruit
It turns out that even breadfruit, which is a wildly popular starchy fruit in Caribbean nations in cooked form, is edible raw:
How to Eat Breadfruit RAW and uncooked Ulu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6aXAN3DqGU#)It seems that once it becomes common to cook a food like breadfruit or plantains or even meat, people start assuming that it has to be cooked, even if there's no evidence for this.
And it also contains RS:
Fermentation by amylolytic lactic acid bacteria and consequences for starch digestibility of plantain, breadfruit, and sweet potato flours.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22860595 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22860595)
BTW, this guy in the vids, John Kohler, is one of the most reasonable and knowledgeable raw vegan diet promoters on the Internet. He's not at all like the notorious Durianrider or Freelee (who aren't even close to fully raw any more, yet are hypocritically more antagonistic towards people who aren't raw vegans than most true raw vegans). So if you want to learn about plant foods that are edible raw, I recommend his vids highly.
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@GS
I like jicama now. I found that the key was to choose smaller ones, which are more sweet and juicy, less bitter and tough. Plus, I seem to like them better since increasing resistant starch in my diet, though I don't know why and that could be coincidence. Who knows, maybe my gut bacteria are influencing what tastes good to me.
Being able to add jicama, rich in oligofructose and inulin, to my diet is probably a good thing, since ingesting a variety of types of prebiotics is supposed to improve the gut biome more than eating mainly one or two types. I was already eating some foods that contain oligofructose and inulin, but I find it easy to eat a substantial amount of jicama, so I figure it has probably helped increase my overall intake.
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There's also the possibility of ferments not doing so well because they need an aerobic environment, and realistically a large portion of any jar of high meat will be virtually unexposed to air. I wonder what it would be like if it was hung as it would be to make aged meat, only in conditions that would make high meat (ie. the temperature).
"There's also the possibility of ferments not doing so well because they need an aerobic environment," l) Uh? Nice vocab. lol
"I wonder what it would be like if it was hung as it would be to make aged meat, only in conditions that would make high meat (ie. the temperature). " Oh my GOD! Way to butcher the English language. lol. l)
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"There's also the possibility of ferments not doing so well because they need an aerobic environment," l) Uh? Nice vocab. lol
"I wonder what it would be like if it was hung as it would be to make aged meat, only in conditions that would make high meat (ie. the temperature). " Oh my GOD! Way to butcher the English language. lol. l)
Nice immaturity... You are obviously a troll. If not then come back once you've fixed your issues.
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Hi Phil,
I have some raw chufas at home. They are delicious! However, one needs strong teeth to chew them.
I like soaked lentils and when peas are in season, I eat a lot of green peas. I like jicama (Bengkoang) too. And I have always loved lucuma!
Do vegetables such as belgian endive, broccoli, fennel etc. contain resistant starch?
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Hanna, raw nuts are a great choice for RS, if you did not know. Raw cocoa too :)
Those are my choice.... But the nuts need to be real good quality for sure! I only trust Orkos...
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Hi Phil,
I have some raw chufas at home. They are delicious! However, one needs strong teeth to chew them.
Some people juice them to make a drink.
Do vegetables such as belgian endive, broccoli, fennel etc. contain resistant starch?
My guess would be not much, but they would contain much more of other beneficial prebiotics.
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Hanna, raw nuts are a great choice for RS, if you did not know. Raw cocoa too :)
I didn't know that. Well, nuts are one of my (many!) staples anyway.
Phil, why didn't you mention nuts? :-) They are certainly the easiest way to get one's share of resistant starch.
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I didn't know that. Well, nuts are one of my (many!) staples anyway.
Phil, why didn't you mention nuts? :-) They are certainly the easiest way to get one's share of resistant starch.
Which nuts?
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You mean, which nuts I eat?
Walnuts (my favorite nuts, as long as they are not too old), almonds, macadamia nuts, Brazil nuts, for example.
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I didn't know that. Well, nuts are one of my (many!) staples anyway.
Phil, why didn't you mention nuts? :-) They are certainly the easiest way to get one's share of resistant starch.
I did. I earlier provided a link to a long list that includes nuts at http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/fantastic-health-benefits-of-butyrate-6649/msg117106/#msg117106 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/fantastic-health-benefits-of-butyrate-6649/msg117106/#msg117106) It has cashews, chestnuts (the European tree nut variety) and pistachios. I was just providing some more examples that are edible raw that I happened to come across.
The list includes many foods that are typically cooked, so I didn't paste it directly into the post (and it's in pdf form) and I've been keeping my eye out for ones that are edible raw. You've given me an idea to start accumulating a list dedicated solely to those foods.
Why do you say that nuts are the easiest way to get RS? Don't they take a bit of work to remove them from the shells, and isn't their RS content not the highest, according to the list?
I think GS meant which of the nuts are the easiest way to get RS, presumably the ones with the highest RS content, yes? I'm curious about that too.
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Cashews, chestnuts and pistachios are very tasty.
- Cashews are usually shelled by burning their shell, so they have been overheated. I've got some having been shelled without heat.
- Pistachios are often liked by "instinctos" and I eat it when I can obtain some raw ones. But they are small and, as you say it means a good amount of work for little food...
- Chestnuts are one of my favorite food, cheap and easily available or even gathered for free in the forests. They must be stored at ambiant temperature for at least 3 weeks before becoming palatable.
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Why do you say that nuts are the easiest way to get RS? Don't they take a bit of work to remove them from the shells
Certainly it takes less work to shell nuts than to hunt, for example, an animal. Even crows and other birds manage to shell nuts. My friends in childhood managed to shell walnuts (my favorite nut) with their bare hands. I preferred tools...
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Hehe! Absolutely true! As I said, it easier to get a plant than an animal because plants don't run away when you try to catch them. ;)
And animals must not only be hunted, but also skinned which is quite a lot of work. If you don't have a good knife and the necessary skill, it's even harder. That's why our anthropoid ancestors most likely scavenged carcasses and bones left by predators. They even also probably used to chase predators away from their catch, assaulting them in bands armed with stones and sticks.
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Certainly it takes less work to shell nuts than to hunt, for example, an animal. Even crows and other birds manage to shell nuts. My friends in childhood managed to shell walnuts (my favorite nut) with their bare hands. I preferred tools...
There are other easier to obtain and open sources of resistant starch that contain much, much more of it than the nuts you listed, such as green plantains. Check the list I linked to. Unfortunately, most of the foods on the list are cooked, so you have to weed through them to find the raw ones. Make sure to get resistant starch one way or another.
You and Iguana do have the right idea, that optimally we should be eating more plants than animals, especially plants high in prebiotics.
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You and Iguana do have the right idea, that optimally we should be eating more plants than animals, especially plants high in prebiotics.
As Inger stated, you have to follow the seasons.
I can still remember the LOL I had when Inger said in the height of winter in Scandinavian countries that the plants are frozen in ice! Raw ZC is ideal for that season in her area.
Then again, I'm thinking of those stored nuts they say squirrels do. I wonder if Inger has tried storing nuts or eating nuts while it is winter.
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As Inger stated, you have to follow the seasons.
You may do it when you’re wholly healthy. But most people are more or less sick and thus unable to eat raw within a very limited food range. The broadest their food choice is, the most easy it is for them to switch to and remain on raw paleo diet.
I can still remember the LOL I had when Inger said in the height of winter in Scandinavian countries that the plants are frozen in ice! Raw ZC is ideal for that season in her area.
Again, for those able to handle that!
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Some of the more open minded VLCers have experimented with butyrate-generating RS and reported benefits. The latest one is Tom Naughton, maker of the Fathead movie, who was skeptical of resistant starch at first, until he looked into it more deeply and was impressed by the research. He gave it a try (in his case, he went with the easy option of just adding some raw potato starch to his diet, but that's not the only way to get resistant starch), and he reported his success on Jimmy Moore's most recent Low Carb Conversations podcast.
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/lcc-episode-100-celebrating-our-historic-100th-episode-with-a-dozen-all-star-guest-friends/22181
Starting at 1:29:16 Tom Naughton's vote for most impactful health headline of 2013 went to resistant starch (namely, Richard Nikoley's headline “A Resistant Starch Primer For Newbies”).
Richard cited research that Tom found more convincing that the one bad study Tom had seen in the past.
Jimmy Moore said he wants to do an n=1 with RS.
Since consuming potato starch, Tom's blood sugar has been lower and it doesn't spike nearly as much after rice.
Interestingly, lots of people have been reporting that RS resolves the problems people commonly report with VLC diets.
Tom reported that his body temp measurements rose from the 97's to 98.4 with RS.
I experienced the same benefits with blood glucose and body temperature that Tom reported.
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Resistant Starch – a concise guide to the biohack of the decade
Resistant Starch (RS for short) is being called the biohack of the decade and with good reason. The majority of people experimenting with it are reporting dramatic improvements in well-being across a number of measures.
Briefly the primary benefits seen are:
Improved blood glucose & metabolism
Improved sleep and “movie-like” vivid dreams
Enhanced energy, mood and well-being
Improved digestion and bowel movements
....
http://www.gestaltreality.com/2014/02/27/resistant-starch-a-concise-guide/ (http://www.gestaltreality.com/2014/02/27/resistant-starch-a-concise-guide/)
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Beautiful Butyrate from Raw Paleo Potatoes:
Excerpts from The pros and cons of munching on raw potatoes
QUESTION: I grew up on a farm in Minnesota, and I always used to like eating raw potatoes like apples. I still like them better raw than cooked, with a little salt on them. My mother always said they were healthier that way. Was she right?
– RLL, via e-mail
ANSWER: Although not a common component in the American diet, the eating of raw potatoes has footing in some family traditions. There are some considerations and interesting science regarding eating them this way.
...fermentation of resistant starches increases the production of butyrate, a fatty acid that is associated with favorable effects on diseases in the colon.
... The bottom line is that if you want to eat raw potatoes, aside from peeling them, look for fresh, unblemished, unsprouted potatoes with no hint of green. If you have a choice, opt for potatoes that are grown organically.
There is a complete list of potato nutrients at tinyurl.com/dyerf5. This list represents the nutrients in the raw potato. Cooked potatoes have less vitamin C, thiamine and riboflavin. When eating cooked potatoes, include the skin if you can.
See more here, including warnings on what to avoid: http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2009/Aug/05/1f5focusm195324-pros-and-cons-munching-raw-potatoe/ (http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2009/Aug/05/1f5focusm195324-pros-and-cons-munching-raw-potatoe/)
My favorite raw potatoes are organic fingerlings, such as Purple Peruvian potatoes and yellow Russian Banana potatoes. They are less modified by humans than more common ones like Russet potatoes, which are my least favorite that I've tried so far (they cause burning in my mouth and throat). Of course, not everyone will like heritage (aka "gourmet") raw potatoes, especially if they didn't grown up eating them, and particularly if they also didn't grow up eating lots of cooked potatoes.
Here's another even more positive updated take on RS by Mark Sisson than his last one:
The Definitive Guide to Resistant Starch
by Mark Sisson
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-definitive-guide-to-resistant-starch/#axzz2x6yHSuIv (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-definitive-guide-to-resistant-starch/#axzz2x6yHSuIv)
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Im still not very clear on precisely what is RS. Is it just a catch all praise that includes all plant starches that are resistant to being broken down in the small intestines?
The list on the link seems to be centered around grains, starchy roots, plantains and legumes.
Are there differences between the indigestible fiber of Plantains to that of coconut, or other tree nuts and seeds?
I have eaten bits of raw sun-chokes, and other RS foods but it seems if I eat more than just a little I get very bloaty. This is in regards to all starchy foods in general seeds, nuts, roots, grains ect.
Even raw coconut if I eat more than a little will have the same effect, which is why I eat coconut butter, for some reason dehydrated coconut is not an issue with me.
Prehaps there are enzyme inhibitors with some RS foods which have to either be cooked, soaked, fermented, or dehydrated before the bacteria flora of the gut can utilize them.
There must be antibacterial properties of RS foods which make them resistant to being broken down enigmatically in their Raw state.
Perhaps with continued ingestion of RS the gut does begin to build up the bacterial flora and enzymatic production required to assimilate such foods?
There has to be a number of other factors to explain why some people can eat extremely large amounts of these foods without an issue, while others have a bad reaction to very small amounts.
Sorry I missed these questions, Sabertooth. I just stumbled on them while looking for something.
Yes, resistant starch is just what the name says--starch that is resistant to digestion and most of it makes it undigested to the colon, where bacteria digest it in a person (or animal) with a healthy GI microbiome.
The majority of the resistant starch in coconut is in the heart of the tree itself--"from the topmost section of the coconut trunk" (http://www.marketmanila.com/archives/ubod-heart-of-coconut-palm-2 (http://www.marketmanila.com/archives/ubod-heart-of-coconut-palm-2)). The food from this is called ubod in the Philippines (aka palm pith, palm hearts, sago, palm cabbage, ubod). I think GoodSamaritan posted about it somewhere, but I can't find that now.
The closest thing in the USA is raw jarred peach palm hearts with a flavor reminiscent of pickled artichokes, such as these: http://www.melissas.com/Hearts-of-Palm-p/94.htm (http://www.melissas.com/Hearts-of-Palm-p/94.htm)
Palm hearts were one of the main starchy foods in Eastern Asia before rice agriculture came to dominate.
Sun chokes are rich in inulin, another prebiotic, not resistant starch, and sun chokes are not starchy.
RS is technically not antibacterial, it is a prebiotic that feeds bacteria, most of them beneficial, though it can carry pathogenic bacteria out of the gut, as most of them cannot feed on it but try to anyway.
Perhaps with continued ingestion of RS the gut does begin to build up the bacterial flora and enzymatic production required to assimilate such foods?
Yes
There has to be a number of other factors to explain why some people can eat extremely large amounts of these foods without an issue, while others have a bad reaction to very small amounts.
You basically guessed what is probably the main one - that those who get short-term problems from RS don't have enough of the good bacteria to handle it. The problems often resolve over time as people build up a healthy GI microbiome.
Hope that helps.
Margareta Lundström, one of the founding mothers of the Swedish LCHF-movement, reported amazing results from resistant starch: http://freetheanimal.com/2014/05/resistant-revolution-community.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/05/resistant-revolution-community.html)
As I said somewhere before, I don't recall where, resistant starch and prebiotics are going to revolutionize "Paleo". It's a game changer.
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I still would love to see any 'thing' that says pieces of raw kale or corn or any vegetable that makes it out your anus isn't RS. The thought here is that we don't digest/breakdown a lot of the starchy foods we eat period. Whether or not they are RS, they do enter the colon as particles or pieces and feed starch/sugar feeding bacteria. So If this is true, Raw vegans who eat absolutely No officially prescribed RS would have similar colonies of bacteria of those specifically eating RS labeled foods. Please show me where my thinking is astray,, thanks.
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I still would love to see any 'thing' that says pieces of raw kale or corn or any vegetable that makes it out your anus isn't RS.
That would be a waste of time. No credible expert, nor even credible critic, claims that raw kale is a substantial source of RS. It would be like asking for proof that the moon is not made of cheese. It's not a credible claim.
Corn does contain RS, but I don't know of anyone who recommends eating it raw fresh from the cob without first nixtamalizing or fermenting it.
The thought here is that we don't digest/breakdown a lot of the starchy foods we eat period. Whether or not they are RS, they do enter the colon as particles or pieces and feed starch/sugar feeding bacteria.
RS is not a sugar, it's a special type of starch that gets converted into butyrate (fat) via bacteria.
So If this is true, Raw vegans who eat absolutely No officially prescribed RS would have similar colonies of bacteria of those specifically eating RS labeled foods. Please show me where my thinking is astray,, thanks.
I don't know what your point is with that notion, unless by "similar" you mean somewhat similar and yet significantly different in important ways, some of which we probably don't yet understand. You seem to just be guessing. It is possible to get butyrate from other prebiotics like inulin, which are also beneficial, but I have not seen any scientists claim that the resulting bacterial populations of eating just inulin vs. just RS would be exactly the same, nor have I seen any claim that one would benefit by avoiding RS and only eating other prebiotics instead of including RS in a wide variety of prebiotics, nor that kale is a significant source of RS. If you would like to be the first to make those claims in a science journal, you could try, though they would ask for evidence. Plus, the different prebiotics offer synergistic effects, as I mentioned before in this thread, due to cross-feeding bacteria, so that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. It's not about one vs. the other, it's about consuming a wide variety of prebiotics. Jeff Leach of the American Gut Project discusses this at his website. http://humanfoodproject.com/ (http://humanfoodproject.com/)
If you really are interested in learning more about prebiotics, probiotics and the Old Friends Hypothesis, then I highly recommend checking out Jeff's writings and also those of Tatertot Tim Steele at Mark's Daily Apple forum https://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514.html (https://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread73514.html) and Tim and Richard Nikoley at the Free the Animal blog http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/resistant-primer-newbies.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/resistant-primer-newbies.html) and Prof. Graham Rook http://www.grahamrook.net/Oldfriends/ (http://www.grahamrook.net/Oldfriends/)
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Sidebar: Of course, even a positive game changer like the Old Friends Hypothesis can be taken to crazy extremes, like I've seen some people do with this and everything else. It never appealed to me to consume RS only in the form of potato starch long term, such as just to stay VLC, nor in huge quantities every day. It especially doesn't make sense to me to do what some people do and continue to take PS every day despite negative symptoms like joint pains. PS is not a panacea miracle cure for everything and more is not always better.
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I have gone to the sights you've included. My point is that it seems more than logical that there' enough sugar and starches in a whole foods diet that doesn't get broken down and gets emptied into the colon. And whether or not it's RS or not, the fact is that there's starch and sugar there then for all kinds of bacteria to feed on and thrive. No one has shown me that this special RS starch ( starch that is resisitant to digestion ) is the only starch that will feed those bacteria that produce butyrate in the colon. I don't know how to make this more clear.
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Corn does contain RS, but I don't know of anyone who recommends eating it raw fresh from the cob without first nixtamalizing or fermenting it.
Our markets sell very young corn.
Mature organic corn is eaten raw fresh as you pluck them. Our organic farmer had us taste his corn that way, it was pretty good.
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Our markets sell very young corn.
Mature organic corn is eaten raw fresh as you pluck them. Our organic farmer had us taste his corn that way, it was pretty good.
It's amazing why PPL ruin corn by cooking it.
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Iguana,
Recently I saw a horse chestnut tree which I thought was a chestnut tree. The PPL offered me all the nuts I wanted but they said that it was a horse chestnut and so the nuts were mildly poisonous. Sure enouh Wackipeia agrees :
"The nuts, especially those that are young and fresh, are slightly poisonous, containing alkaloid saponins and glucosides. Although not dangerous to touch, they cause sickness when eaten; consumed by horses, they can cause tremors and lack of coordination.[6] Some mammals, notably deer, are able to break down the toxins and eat them safely.[citation needed]"
So how do you know the difference between chestnuts and horse chestnuts?
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By asking an expert and looking at a tree guide, such as this one:
http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=189 (http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=189)
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PP,
Here is two pics. I do not see a difference.
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What is the advantage of butyrate from RS over BHB from being in ketosis? Doesn't LCHF provide exactly the same benefits?
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PP,
Here is two pics. I do not see a difference.
In using tree/plant guides, you don't look at just the nuts. You compare/contrast other things too, like the leaves. I also suggested asking an expert (preferably a local one familiar with the local plants, though Green Deane and our own Eric are some good Internet resources), to make sure you don't make any mistakes when eating wild foods.
Even the nuts/seeds are quite visibly different, as shown in these articles:
http://tree-species.blogspot.com/2009/03/edible-chestnuts-vs-horse-chestnuts.html (http://tree-species.blogspot.com/2009/03/edible-chestnuts-vs-horse-chestnuts.html)
http://www.kitchentravels.com/2012/02/foraging-roasting-fresh-chestnuts.html (http://www.kitchentravels.com/2012/02/foraging-roasting-fresh-chestnuts.html)
http://www.eattheweeds.com/newsletter-25-dec-2012 (http://www.eattheweeds.com/newsletter-25-dec-2012)
Toxic horse chestnuts:
(http://www.quirksee.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/vvv-300x203.jpeg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_oH7YVmRWh-s/ScloOR1BEgI/AAAAAAAADfE/nEwxmDiUhow/s400/Aesculus+hippocastanum+NOT+edible.JPG)
Edible chestnuts:
(http://www.quirksee.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Screen-Shot-2013-10-28-at-12.30.53-AM-300x225.png)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oH7YVmRWh-s/ScloPYcqqQI/AAAAAAAADfk/c9-7EAAX_Gw/s400/IMG_7281.JPG)
You may have posted two images of horsechestnuts. Neither of them looks like the edible chestnuts sold in markets.
Edible wild American chestnuts are rare due to chestnut blight in the early 20th century. Most of the surviving trees are reportedly hybrids with foreign species. It's probably best to start out with chestnuts purchased at a market. One of my local markets sells edible in-the-shell chestnuts while in season.
BTW, chestnuts are higher in RS than most nuts.
What is the advantage of butyrate from RS over BHB from being in ketosis? Doesn't LCHF provide exactly the same benefits?
I asked the same sorts of questions early in the thread. Muhammad Sunshine set me straight on it. When I researched it, I found the scientific evidence supporting what he said. Then when I tried increasing RS, I found that I got several of the benefits that others reported. If you're interested, I recommend reading the thread and other good sources linked to in the thread.
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African wild potato aka bantu tulip (hypoxis hemerocallidea) and other Stone Age sources of prebiotics, carbs and medicinal substances:
Seven rock-solid careers from the Stone Age
By John Roach
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38527329/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/seven-rock-solid-careers-stone-age/#.U7Q_ivk7sts (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38527329/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/seven-rock-solid-careers-stone-age/#.U7Q_ivk7sts)
"Food workers, of the sort who process sorghum and other cereals to make flours, breads, porridges and alcoholic beverages, were in demand as early as 100,000 years ago in Mozambique, according to archaeologists who found the cereals in a cave along with African wine palm, the false banana, pigeon peas, wild oranges and the African potato."
[There were other foods in Stone Age Europe that supplied prebiotics and carbs, such as the chestnuts discussed above, wild grass seeds, sedge rhizomes and pollens from bulrush and cattail, water chestnuts, polygonum viviparum (Alpine bistort) rhizomes, alpine sweetvetch root aka Eskimo Potato with a cirmupolar distribution (indigenous to Europe, Asia and North America), etc.]
Hypoxis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoxis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoxis)
Hypoxis is a genus of flowering plants belonging to the family Hypoxidaceae. The genus has an "almost cosmopolitan" distribution, occurring in Africa, the Americas, Asia, and Australia.[1] ... These plants are perennial herbs with corms or rhizomes. Some have tubers.
...
Uses
Hypoxis plants have long played a role in traditional African medicine; H. hemerocallidea and H. colchicifolia are the best known species used to make medicine and teas. The corms of the former are used in the treatment of AIDS,[6] and the plant has been called a "wonder herb" and "miracle cure".[1] Hypoxis roots are widely touted as boosters of immune system function in AIDS patients by the media and even by the South African Ministry of Health.[6] This claim has not been tested in research.[1]
However, one study of African potato extract had to be stopped because of a severe bone marrow suppression side effect:
HIV warning on African potato, July 15 2003 at 01:43pm, By Christelle Terreblanche, http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/hiv-warning-on-african-potato-1.109328#.U7P4efk7sts (http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/hiv-warning-on-african-potato-1.109328#.U7P4efk7sts)
Indigenous use of plants in south-eastern Australia
https://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/95395/Tel122215Got.pdf (https://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/95395/Tel122215Got.pdf)
Family - Species - Storage Carbohydrate
Hypoxidaceae - Hypoxis spp. - starch
African wild potato (Hypoxis hemerocallidea)
http://www.livingnaturally.com/ns/DisplayMonograph.asp?StoreID=X95XDEPXKAS92JS100AKHMCCQJK613V8&DocID=bottomline-africanwildpotato (http://www.livingnaturally.com/ns/DisplayMonograph.asp?StoreID=X95XDEPXKAS92JS100AKHMCCQJK613V8&DocID=bottomline-africanwildpotato)
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Eades comments, "So, we eat our half cup of cooked potato, and what do we get? We get almost three teaspoons of sugar and carb that convert almost immediately to glucose and head directly into the bloodstream. The blood volume of a person with a normal blood sugar contains about a teaspoon of sugar, which means that consuming the potato almost quadruples the amount of sugar in the blood. The pancreas then secretes insulin to drive this excess sugar into the cells. This extra insulin then does all the things excess insulin is famous (or infamous) for doing.''
but why will that excess insulin cause damage? if we are active, wouldnt we just burn up that extra sugar? that extra sugar will not be deposited in muscles/liver and as fat store?
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Eades comments, "So, we eat our half cup of cooked potato, and what do we get? We get almost three teaspoons of sugar and carb that convert almost immediately to glucose and head directly into the bloodstream. The blood volume of a person with a normal blood sugar contains about a teaspoon of sugar, which means that consuming the potato almost quadruples the amount of sugar in the blood. The pancreas then secretes insulin to drive this excess sugar into the cells. This extra insulin then does all the things excess insulin is famous (or infamous) for doing.''
but why will that excess insulin cause damage? if we are active, wouldnt we just burn up that extra sugar? that extra sugar will not be deposited in muscles/liver and as fat store?
Yes, someone with a healthy metabolism and other systems will not turn much of the glucose into fat (unless there is caloric excess), and will instead use it for energy for physical or mental activity or thermogenesis (body heat) or repair (or growth in youths). The problem comes in when the metabolism is not working well.
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A concerning mouse study that suggests that too much SCFAs could lead to liver damage in some with "a genetic mutation in TLR5, resulting in a complete lack of its function." The authors "envision that our studies would drive the field towards 'personalized' cautioned dietary intake of plant-derived fiber in immunocompromised individuals." If there's a possibility of relevance for humans, then it would at least suggest some caution when considering things like high-dose intake of SCFA-generating prebiotics such as via prebiotic powders (ex: potato starch, inulin powder, etc.), which I already thought Satya was right to caution about. What works for one might be harmful for another. I've been trying to get as much as I can of what I need from whole foods and foods that benefit mitochondria and bioenergetics (the energy dissipation process). Could it be that even whole foods might contain too much prebiotic for people without this gene mutation? I don't know. It will be interesting to see analysis of this.
Chris Kresser (@chriskresser)
11/4/15, 9:41 PM
New study confirms connection between gut bacteria and obesity: bit.ly/1Sourdb #obesity #guthealth #microbiome
Stephan Guyenet, PhD ?@whsource 9h9 hours ago
@chriskresser Wow, that finding is unexpected. I'll have to take a closer look.
Gut bacteria could be blamed for obesity, diabetes
Date: October 29, 2015
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151029185547.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151029185547.htm)
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See, Phil, that's why eating supplements or even foodlements concerns me, especially in pill form (because it defeats the taste change), especially for people who aren't good at paying attention to their body's reactions to new substances. That goes double for things that are new to a specific population, or processed in a new way, like sulfites on dried fruit, which have made both me and a lot of other former raw vegans very sick.
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Sure, and like I've said all along, my goal is to find an approach in which I eventually don't need any supplements or foodlements, if possible. For me they are never themselves an end goal--ideally just temporary measures and maybe even a stepping stone to not needing any. Nonetheless, caution and skepticism are generally in order with new substances.
One of the things that helped me question VLC and vegan diets was seeing so many promoters of these diets say things along the lines of "Don't worry about ____ symptom" (like muscle cramps/twitches/tetany for VLCers and B12 deficiency in vegans), just take _____ supplement (ex: magnesium/electrolytes and iodine for VLCers and B12 for vegans)." If the diets are so great, why do so many veterans of the diets need high dose supplements?
In this case, it doesn't seem likely that I'm one of the 10% with the mutation (but I'm not going to assume that), and even whole foods could be an issue for those who have it, not just supplements or foodlements. Maybe a certain form of Specific Carbohydrate Diet or Peaty diet that doesn't generate a lot of SCFAs might make sense for them? It will be interesting to see analysis of this study by other scientists.
It's interesting that one of the SCFAs cited by the study authors as potentially problematic for people lacking functioning TLR5's is acetic acid, which some LC advocates have been recommending as an alternative--via vinegar consumption--to foods containing resistant starch.
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I am grateful that you participate in other nutrition forums and learn what trends are happening and research them and experiment on yourself. You never know what might be useful, and I'm admittedly too complacent in my diet. It works well enough that I'm unwilling to experiment much on my own, plus I've had experiments go very badly, like 80/10/10, so I'm cautious.
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Thanks. I should also note that I don't yet have access to the full study. So it could turn out to be bogus.
It's perfectly understandable to not want to experiment if something is working great for you and my posts are not meant to encourage people to experiment so much as to question and not assume that various gurus are right about everything.
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Indeed.