Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet => Topic started by: Michael on October 30, 2009, 07:34:11 am
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As many of you know, I have a new 5 month old son and the time will soon be arriving when we'll be weaning him onto solids. So far, he's purely breast-fed. His mother is not raw or paleo but has been very co-operative with regards to her own diet and my advice throughout the pregnancy and breast-feeding period. She's largely been following a Weston Price style diet. I've also been ensuring that she gets plenty of raw animal foods at least in the form of whole eggs, home-made grass-fed beef jerky, jersey butter, occasional jersey cream/milk and raw fermented blue ice cod liver oil. Fortunately, she LOVES the jerky I make so has been eating 2-3kgs per week with lots of raw jersey butter.
My son is doing incredibly well and is strong, well developed and seemingly advanced. Of course, we also decided to eschew all vaccinations (as I did with my now 11 yr old daughter in my pre-raw days).
I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions for good early weaning foods? Ideally, I would raise him on RAF but my partner - although accepting that RAF can be a part of his diet - also wants him to eat 'normal' food. His diet is probably going to end up being a variation of a Price diet too with me emphasising raw meats and fats (I've been RAF for almost 9 years and now zero carb for the last few months). I am going to be adamant that he is not fed any grains and no dairy (except, perhaps, raw butter).
I'm thinking raw egg yolks, thinly sliced raw meats & ground suet, chopped lamb liver/heart, cod liver oil, vegetable soups/purees made with homemade bone stock, etc. What do you guys think of him eating raw meats before he has teeth (still awaiting the 1st!)? Obviously, I'd slice it thin and chop it up small but choking may be a concern.
Any thoughts, suggestions or experiences?
Thanks,
Michael
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What do you guys think of him eating raw meats before he has teeth (still awaiting the 1st!)? Obviously, I'd slice it thin and chop it up small but choking may be a concern.
He'll be fine with it and most likely take right to it unlike some other baby foods.
My littlest brother had the oddest love of Braunschweiger as a toddler (1+ years) and would sit contented for hours gumming a piece of it. Never once did he choke on it, etc. so I think your little one should be fine there as well.
My only bit of advice is don't wean him completely yet unless you have to. It's fine to get him acclimated to solids but the breast milk is so beneficial to his development it'd be a shame to cut it short unless there was a good reason to do so (slowing lactation, etc.). Feed him solids once or twice a day and breast feed the other meals. :)
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I've thought of this before, how would you ween a child on to a diet high in raw animal products. Especially without developed teeth and jaw muscles? Meat can be pretty tough to chew, especially raw. Well, I realized the answer one day flipping through the channels watching a mama bird vomit up food to her young'uns.
In paleo times, a mother would have probably chewed up the food first, and then fed it to her child. The food would easily go down, and the saliva would already have begun to break down the food. Not only that, but I'm sure anitbodies would get passed as well. Good luck convincing the wifey.
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As many of you know, I have a new 5 month old son and the time will soon be arriving when we'll be weaning him onto solids. So far, he's purely breast-fed. His mother is not raw or paleo but has been very co-operative with regards to her own diet and my advice throughout the pregnancy and breast-feeding period. She's largely been following a Weston Price style diet. I've also been ensuring that she gets plenty of raw animal foods at least in the form of whole eggs, home-made grass-fed beef jerky, jersey butter, occasional jersey cream/milk and raw fermented blue ice cod liver oil. Fortunately, she LOVES the jerky I make so has been eating 2-3kgs per week with lots of raw jersey butter.
I think I'd give him egg yolks, calf or lamb liver, chopmeat I'd make fresh and share with him for fun, maybe try chewing food for him and possibly a bit of cream or milk here and there.
My son is doing incredibly well and is strong, well developed and seemingly advanced. Of course, we also decided to eschew all vaccinations (as I did with my now 11 yr old daughter in my pre-raw days).
I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions for good early weaning foods? Ideally, I would raise him on RAF but my partner - although accepting that RAF can be a part of his diet - also wants him to eat 'normal' food. His diet is probably going to end up being a variation of a Price diet too with me emphasising raw meats and fats (I've been RAF for almost 9 years and now zero carb for the last few months). I am going to be adamant that he is not fed any grains and no dairy (except, perhaps, raw butter).
Ok, switch that bit of cream/milk for butter. Maybe you want to try goat butter, as the Vitamin A in it is in more usable form than cows.
I'm thinking raw egg yolks, thinly sliced raw meats & ground suet, chopped lamb liver/heart, cod liver oil, vegetable soups/purees made with homemade bone stock, etc. What do you guys think of him eating raw meats before he has teeth (still awaiting the 1st!)? Obviously, I'd slice it thin and chop it up small but choking may be a concern.
Any thoughts, suggestions or experiences?
Thanks,
Michael
Cook the vegetables thoroughly. Babies don't digest fiber well. I have experience with undercooked vegetables. Personally I find thinly sliced backfat nicer.
In other cultures they don't start grain until the teeth are in a bit. Meat they will start earlier if the teeth come in too late.
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I'd suggest raw egg-yolks and ground meat.
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After reading that the only foods easily digested by babies are mothers' milk and raw meat, I would suggest not weaning, but adding mother-chewed raw grass finished and grass fed organic beef; maybe well-chewed jerky, as it AFAIK has been proven acceptable to all, unlike raw wet meat.
Note the experience of delfuego, whose youngest son has never eaten other than pemmican since weaning, with great success.
Experimenting on a baby with stuff that makes many sick, such as cooked veggies (evil carbs!) or any veggies, dairy (allergens), cooked animal anything including broth seems to me too adventurous and therefore risky.
If it were my child I would say caution and proven safe/good nutrition is the way.
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I would recommend grassfed ground raw meat and grassfed ground suet/marrow when wheaning (basically what Lex eats), though I would recommend sticking with breastfeeding for as long as you can up to 3-4 years, which is what traditional HGs do. Pemmican appears to have worked well for Ray Audette's son (starting at age one!), who has a genius level IQ (anecdotally supporting my assertion that, if anything, avg Upper-Paleo-to-modern hunter-gatherer intelligence, as well as athleticism, was and is probably superior to avg. modern intelligence, rather than inferior, as so often portrayed -- primitive/RPD does not equal stupid):
10-02-2007, 11:05 PM
Ray Audette
Re: Nutritionally Complete One-Pot Meal
http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3361
The only food I know that be eaten exclusively long-term without vitamin or mineral deficiencies is traditional pemmican. It has only two ingredients, raw dehydrated meat and dessicated animal fat ( tallow ).
It was tested as a survival food by Vilhjalmur Stefansson ( perhaps Dr. E's favorite low-carb author ) under a grant from the U.S. Army during the 1930s Ironically only the Luftwaffe used it for this purpose during WW II. Stefansson also used it on several Arctic expeditions to cure scurvy among his crew.
My son Gray-Hawk weaned himself from his mother at age one year and ate pemmican as his only solid food for the next year ( he's 12 now and none the worse for it ).
--Ray Audette
author of NeanderThin
10-05-2007, 10:24 PM
Ray Audette Ray Audette is offline
New Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4
Default Re: Nutritionally Complete One-Pot Meal
Most commercial suppliers of pemmican overheat the meat ( health dept. rules ). This renders the resulting pemmican very tasteless and gritty. Good pemmican tastes like beef jerky pate. It's very easy to make.
My ancestors, French-Canadian Voyagers, ate nothing but Pemmican for 6 - 9 months every year while they paddled from Quebec to British Columbia ( and back ) to trade for furs. It is the most concentrated food and thus the best for travel.
Ray Audette
Re: Lowcarbing for decades?
http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-188444.html
Ray Audette
> Ignoramus19260 wrote:
> > Do you know of anyone who lowcarbed for decades, to maintain weight?
> > How did it affect them?
I have been eating a Paleolithic Diet for 20 years. I eat no grains,
beans, potatoes, milk of other animals or refined sugars. These are
not edible to Primates without technological intervention.
I'm now 53 years old, six feet tall, 150 lbs ( 7% body fat). I no
longer have diabetes or arthritis. I never work out but have
excellent muscle definition and jogers have problems keeping up with
me and my hawk when I take them hunting. I eat like a pig often
consuming 9 hamburger paties ( 3 "triples" hold the buns) when I go to
McDonalds. I have eaten a full pound of bacon every morning for the
entire twenty years.
My son Gray-Hawk has been eating this way since conception. When he
weaned himself from his mother at age one he ate almost nothing but
pemmican ( the ultimate low-carb food)for over one year. He's now nine
and considered a gifted athlete, tested at genius level I.Q. and is a
very gifted artist.
Increased animal fat consumption since the invention of railroads and
refrigeration has added more years to our lives than any other
statistical factor. Recent nutrition studies of hundred year olds
done by a leading medical school ( U of Georgia see biblography at
website))have shown that these long-lived individuals difer from the
rest of us only in that they eat more saturated animal fat than most
people.
Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com
Easy Childbirth on Paleo Diets
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/off-topic/easy-childbirth-on-paleo-diets/msg16719/#msg16719
.... From studies cited by [Vilhjalmur] Stefansson,
hunter-gatherers have far less trauma and labor in childbirth than do
agricultural women. Just removing the hazards of gestational diabetes often
found in modern women ( resulting in very large babies) would improve these
statistics considerably but I suspect much more is involved.
When Gray-Hawk ( seven on May 14th ) was born, it was without doctors or
drugs. We arrived at the mid-wives['] at 3:15 PM and he arrived at 5:20 after
2 hours of mild labor […]. As my prediction, five months earlier, of the easiest birth they had ever seen came true, the midwives bought six copies of my book.
After one year he weaned himself from his mother and would eat almost
nothing but Pemmican for the next year. About the only exceptions were
watered-down fruit juice and pork rinds for teething.
Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
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Thanks for your thoughts so far guys. I feel a little more confident now about what to give him. I, too, had read about African tribes, particularly, pre-digesting meats by chewing for their babies and - if possible - will try this method.
We certainly have no intention of stopping the breast feeding so perhaps weaning was the incorrect term. I'm hoping that he can remain on good quality breast milk for at least his first year in addition to the careful introduction of solid foods. If I can convince 'wifey' then I'd be inclined to follow your suggestions of raw egg yolk, raw ground grass-fed beef/lamb (probably with ground suet and/or bone marrow too), raw grass-fed chopped lamb liver/heart and - if possible - homemade jerky. Alongside the breast milk I would expect that to be an incredibly good start for him!
I would certainly prefer to avoid the fruit & veg if I can persuade my partner and would see no need for the stock either if we were avoiding these.
I will eventually get around to starting a journal on here of my experiences raising my son raw paleo (as much as possible) as others have previously expressed an interest. Hopefully, I'll be able to relay his general progress along with photographs of his facial development etc.
Thanks again for your input so far!
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I would be interested in reading his progress. I hope he turns out as well as Gray-Hawk.
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Especially without developed teeth and jaw muscles? Meat can be pretty tough to chew, especially raw. Well, I realized the answer one day flipping through the channels watching a mama bird vomit up food to her young'uns.
I'm not sure bird regurgitation is the same as bird vomit. Their digestive system is different than ours. I'm not saying that you mean they and humans are both the same. I believe the Inuits chewed for elderly people as well, if necessary.
In paleo times, a mother would have probably chewed up the food first, and then fed it to her child. The food would easily go down, and the saliva would already have begun to break down the food. Not only that, but I'm sure anitbodies would get passed as well. Good luck convincing the wifey.
If the man has trustworthy habits, he may not have breasts, but maybe he could pre-chew food.
Some carnivorous animals, the older members of the group eat from carcasses first, and then the youngsters eat from it after. They also benefit from the saliva.
Some folivorous tree dwelling animals, the adults dwell mostly in the higher branches, while the younger ones spend their time mostly on lower branches. As you can imagine, there is bacteria that comes with excrement that the youths eat along with the leaves, which helps colonize their digestive systems so they can assimilate nutrients better.
I'm not saying you are a mere animal, or that we should follow one or more of their paths, but you get the point. There can be many benefits, we don't know how many, to eating naturally.
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I doubt it's necessary to pre-chew the food, as that would be rather time consuming. Grinding should be sufficient. Ray fed his son pemmican after only a year without pre-chewing it.
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I doubt it's necessary to pre-chew the food, as that would be rather time consuming. ... Ray fed his son pemmican after only a year without pre-chewing it.
I pre-chewed all pemmican that afterward I gave to my cats and they ate, but that's another story. They're picky about new foods, and more likely to try them if they see I deem them tasty. Might work for a baby too; I never thought of it.
Pemmican fat isn't raw, but if it works for the baby's health; go for it!
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Pemmican fat isn't raw, true, but my point was that the meat didn't have to be chewed for Gray-Hawk to eat it, just ground/shredded up. Plus, you don't have to render fat, it could be ground too, the way Lex does.
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What about heart and liver instead of muscle though...they're nice and soft and sit well in the stomach. Great that your kid has the chance to get a taste for raw meat :) early foods are so powerful I don't know if I can ever entirely lose cravings for em.
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I hope he turns out as well as Gray-Hawke too PaleoPhil!
I did give him some homemade jerky a few days ago just to hold and suck and get used to the idea. It was a piece long enough and firm enough that he wouldn't accidentally consume any of it but, already, he was going mad for it!! :) I will probably play with grinding some jerky along with ground suet (unheated) when the time comes and see how he gets on with it. The high heating of the fat in the pemmican making process is a concern of mine and a reason I don't eat it myself. I've tried melting suet at low temp in my dehydrator to mix with ground jerky but it didn't get anywhere near melting. I guess the melting point is too high. I don't think I'll be giving Charlie cooked fats in any form.
I'll certainly be giving him grassfed lamb liver and heart Josh. I agree that the softness of it will probably make it a good food for him - although in very small quantities of course due to the high levels of Vit A, D, copper etc. Early foods are so powerful - in both the indelible footprint they leave on the cell memory and, of course, the potential for creating (or not!) a lifelong strong constitution. Hence, anybody found feeding Charlie something I don't approve of (grandparents etc have been warned!!) will be receiving my wrath!!
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I hope he turns out as well as Gray-Hawke too PaleoPhil!
I did give him some homemade jerky a few days ago just to hold and suck and get used to the idea. It was a piece long enough and firm enough that he wouldn't accidentally consume any of it but, already, he was going mad for it!!
Yes, it's heartwearming seeing how much young kids love jerky and pemmican--much more than adults. This suggests to me that years of cooked modern diets damage people's taste buds and re-orient their brain and body chemistry quite considerably. I noticed there are even differences between the kids who were fed more modern vs. traditional foods as infants. One of my Paleo nephews was fed more modern stuff like wheat germ starting in the womb (which a prenatal care book my sister had read suggested would be good for developing fetuses, but is instead one of the worst food supplements a pregnant mother can take) and he likes jerky, pemmican and animal fat less than the one who was not as much modern junk. My super-Paleo nephew's parents were concerned that he loved fat too much, but I explained to them that it's a good sign, not a bad one.
:) I will probably play with grinding some jerky along with ground suet (unheated) when the time comes and see how he gets on with it. The high heating of the fat in the pemmican making process is a concern of mine and a reason I don't eat it myself.
Understandable. Like Delfuego, I heat my suet to 200 deg. when making tallow, which is below what the commercial processors and probably most people do, but I'm trying to think of a convenient way to do it at still lower temps. Eventually I think I'd like to get a professional grinder so I can just grind it like Lex does instead of rendering it.
I've tried melting suet at low temp in my dehydrator to mix with ground jerky but it didn't get anywhere near melting. I guess the melting point is too high. I don't think I'll be giving Charlie cooked fats in any form.
Yeah, it's probably best not to get him hooked on cooked foods too early.
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I'll certainly be giving him grassfed lamb liver and heart Josh.
Copper is an essential nutrient, there is none in Mothers' milk, so babies are born with enormous stores of copper designed to last them several years. Note the common distaste for liver, which is very high in copper.
These liver-hating kids are not crazy or perverse, they are trying to stay alive and well in spite of their parents' good intentions - with which the road to hell is paved. ;)
Giving your child liver will give a copper overdose=poisoning. Don't do it.
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Were there any particular studies to quote on cooked or raw liver for kids? Cooked liver I have always found very sickening. Raw is sweet and smooth and can get bubbly, but I don't eat it often.
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Were there any particular studies to quote on cooked or raw liver for kids? Cooked liver I have always found very sickening. Raw is sweet and smooth and can get bubbly, but I don't eat it often.
Studies can be googled, but not needed, as there have been chemical analyses of mothers' milk and babies' organs. Google should turn up confirmation.
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That's interesting William. I do seem to recall that liver was one of the foods that some African women would pre-chew prior to feeding it to infants.
I agree with you about the risks with excess copper which is why I mentioned it earlier. In your opinion, are even miniscule amounts too much? It's such a nutritious food that it seems a shame to eschew it totally.
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Children have a remarkable ability to intuitively know, by taste and smell, what it is their bodies need. This is true if the food hasn't been adulterated, by cooking, blending, freezing, mixing with other foods, and I don't know if the mother pre-chewing would alter the intuitive input or not. I have witnessed this process with great amazement.
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That's interesting William. I do seem to recall that liver was one of the foods that some African women would pre-chew prior to feeding it to infants.
With the carbs that are in liver, pre-chewing would likely reduce those, no?
Cooked liver turns green colored on the surface almost like the Statue of Liberty, if it sits out a couple hours. I've had raw liver for months. Mine has never turned green yet. I wonder if it's like av's study with the dogs, himself, swordfish and mercury he wrote up in a newsletter of his a couple of years ago.
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Children have a remarkable ability to intuitively know, by taste and smell, what it is their bodies need. This is true if the food hasn't been adulterated, by cooking, blending, freezing, mixing with other foods, and I don't know if the mother pre-chewing would alter the intuitive input or not. I have witnessed this process with great amazement.
I've read that infants shouldn't eat honey, due to risk of infant botulism. Do infants know intuitively not to eat raw honey or is the risk eliminated by a healthy system produced by RPD eating from conception? Wouldn't it be better to be on the safe side in this case and not let even an Instincto-dieting infant eat raw honey?
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Do infants know intuitively not to eat raw honey or is the risk eliminated by a healthy system produced by RPD eating from conception? Wouldn't it be better to be on the safe side in this case and not let even an Instincto-dieting infant eat raw honey?
Doesn't av give all babies unheated honey? My Mom gave me honey as a newborn, if I'm not mistaken, and I didn't get botulism nor colic, and never got pneumonia as a child nor flu nor the childhood diseases nor pollen allergies. I was healthy till they gave me milk and cookies in school. I believe cooked honey causes botulism. Honey is delicate. It should never be warmed above about ninety-five degrees fahrenheit. I didn't give mine honey, as I was vegetarian at the time.
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Recipe for Living without Disease
UNHEATED HONEY contains an insulin-like substance that is
produced by bees when collecting nectar. .... That honey
is wonderful for infants, fed in small amounts at a time.
Infant Immune Booster
8 Servings
1 cup organic raw liver
...
2 raw eggs
1/4 teaspoon unheated honey
Cut liver into small chunks. .... Squeeze pouch to speed
straining. Use nipple with large hole.
Copyright 2005 Aajonus Vonderplanitz, All Rights Reserved
I've seen new babies fed on his formulas, beautiful healthy babies looking and responding like breastfed ones.
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Thanks for the info.
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There is no need to wean, but also no need to feed anything other than breast-milk. Nature made no mistake. Many babies breast-feed exclusively are not interested in anything else for a couple of "YEARS" not months. That's best for them.
In addition, to help your son become self-directed, let him decide when to start eating. It is his choice. It is best not to spoon feed at all. Let your baby be with you when you eat. When he is interested and reaches out to try food with his own hand and his own volition, let him try safe and healthy raw foods that do not require spoon feeding. Feeding babies is an artificial and needless way of replacing breast-milk. Just like you don't "walk" him when he can't walk, there is no need to spoon feed before he can feed himself. But he can feed himself if you put food on his tray and he tries it on his own. He will spit it anyway. He needs only mother's milk.
Truly, your son will grow healthfully and intelligently on breast-milk alone and that's best. And he knows when to eat and the timing is up to him, when he can, on his own. I know this is not the usual mainstream thinking. But consider it. I raised three boys this way and I have counseled thousands with great results of independent children and healthy eaters. If your wife needs to replace breastfeeding or part of it, go for raw milk, the closest to the breast-milk. Humans thrive on milk for the first few years.
I hope this is not only jarring but also mind opening and helpful. Enjoy your baby and don't try to control when he weans. Nature knows best. The baby knows.
Naomi Aldort Ph.D. Author of Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves
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Naomi, wow, I enjoyed reading that. This being a paleo forum too, I think paleo peoples breastfed each child at least six years. I have listened to a podcast of yours on raising children. If you read through this forum, you will see I don't go around saying, "good job", when someone posts something good. That's not the way I normally act, plus I might add: If anyone here listens to your podcast, they will know that's not a good thing to do. I can't help it though, forgive me: Naomi, that was a great post!
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There is no need to wean, but also no need to feed anything other than breast-milk. Nature made no mistake. ...
I hope this is not only jarring but also mind opening and helpful. Enjoy your baby and don't try to control when he weans. Nature knows best. The baby knows.
Naomi Aldort Ph.D. Author of Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves
It's not jarring to us here, because it falls right in line with hunter-gatherer and Instincto practice.
RawZi, I thought the range of breastfeeding periods in HG societies was around 2 to 7 years, with most around 3 to 4 years, rather than a minimum of 6 (http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/priscilla_colletto.html, http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/extract/106/5/S2/1276).
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There's a member of this forum, Elainie, she provided many links in open discussion forum about different tribes while we were both members of GI2MR. There were Inuit nursing up to 6 - 9 years of age, Japanese boys now normal to be nursed while in elementary school, and many tribes with obscure names, I can't remember, but they nursed a long time. Although she still has an account here, she has not actively been contributing, I guess because she finds steamed vegetables and supplements to suit her well. I would guess if you post a question reference this to her welcoming committee thread, she would respond. She has several children and nursed seventeen years straight without interval, the last child I think for five years. She's also given birth (successfully) lotus style? (leaving the placenta attached till it dries up)
On PBS I've seen children even early teens running to suckle when scared (Africa). I do not think there was starvation or other issues involved. The people looked well.
RawZi, I thought the range of breastfeeding periods in HG societies was around 2 to 7 years, with most around 3 to 4 years, rather than a minimum of 6 (http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/priscilla_colletto.html, http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/extract/106/5/S2/1276).
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What I mean is, if one traditional tribe does it for less than 6 years, than 6 years is not the minimum for traditional peoples, right? Six might be better than lower numbers, but it would then not be the minimum.
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I've had cows, cats and goats. They nursed each for years each, when I allowed them to do what they do from the beginning. Human babies are born less developed than even other primates. From what I've read from primatologists, we are born earlier in our gestational cycles than other animals, because of the large human skull. Living without houses, stores, cars etc breastmilk is the most convenient, natural and consistent food possible. Consistency is important in raising children. Some more agricultural tribes may have nursed for two and three years, but more paleo ones I believe nurse six, seven and eight years.
What I mean is, if one traditional tribe does it for less than 6 years, than 6 years is not the minimum for traditional peoples, right? Six might be better than lower numbers, but it would then not be the minimum.
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There is no need to wean, but also no need to feed anything other than breast-milk. Nature made no mistake. Many babies breast-feed exclusively are not interested in anything else for a couple of "YEARS" not months. That's best for them.
In addition, to help your son become self-directed, let him decide when to start eating. It is his choice. It is best not to spoon feed at all. Let your baby be with you when you eat. When he is interested and reaches out to try food with his own hand and his own volition, let him try safe and healthy raw foods that do not require spoon feeding. Feeding babies is an artificial and needless way of replacing breast-milk. Just like you don't "walk" him when he can't walk, there is no need to spoon feed before he can feed himself. But he can feed himself if you put food on his tray and he tries it on his own. He will spit it anyway. He needs only mother's milk.
Truly, your son will grow healthfully and intelligently on breast-milk alone and that's best. And he knows when to eat and the timing is up to him, when he can, on his own. I know this is not the usual mainstream thinking. But consider it. I raised three boys this way and I have counseled thousands with great results of independent children and healthy eaters. If your wife needs to replace breastfeeding or part of it, go for raw milk, the closest to the breast-milk. Humans thrive on milk for the first few years.
I hope this is not only jarring but also mind opening and helpful. Enjoy your baby and don't try to control when he weans. Nature knows best. The baby knows.
Naomi Aldort Ph.D. Author of Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves
Hi Naomi,
Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences and recommendations.
We're certainly keen to breast-feed as long as possible. The main problem is that my partner is reluctantly being forced back to work for financial reasons. Without intending to pass the blame - it appears that the wonderful government in this country seem to do their utmost to ensure parents are unable to fulfill their obligations of raising their children properly! Whether it's a conspiracy to ensure the production line of disassociated little worker bees continues I'm not sure?! :) Fortunately, we've managed to arrange our finances that she's only going to work 3 days per week. But, we're a little unsure about how she's going to be able to breast-feed him on her 4 days out of work whilst also expressing milk for the days she's not there. In addition to that, there are pressures from childminders and nurseries that they must be on solid foods!! Crazy I know! Any suggestions?
I fully agree with your comments about letting my son choose when and what he wants to eat. I have no intention of spoon-feeding him but aim to simply arrange a selection of healthy paleo foods on a plate for him to pick and choose as he wishes. He has certainly started showing an interest when we're eating and drinking which suggests to me that he is choosing to try food in addition to his breast milk now. But, if he decides not to eat it then that's fine. It's actually reassuring to know that you think he could go "years" on breastmilk alone. I was confident of that myself (if my partner's eating correctly) but your advice will assure her also.
I've now looked at your website and am going to order your book from amazon - it looks wonderful! Congratulations on all of the good work you're clearly doing Naomi. I must say, also, that I am immensely impressed with the musical talent of your sons - Lennon and Oliver! This has great significance for me as myself and my partner (who play piano/vocals and flugel horn respectively) are very keen for our son to study both cello and piano. I hope he can become as great as your own children (if he chooses to do so, of course!).
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I've read that infants shouldn't eat honey, due to risk of infant botulism. Do infants know intuitively not to eat raw honey or is the risk eliminated by a healthy system produced by RPD eating from conception? Wouldn't it be better to be on the safe side in this case and not let even an Instincto-dieting infant eat raw honey?
That's my understanding too PaleoPhil. I'm not sure what age they refer to in this but I think it was only in the very early period of development. I do think that it would be safer not to give an infant the choice just to err on the side of caution. However, I no longer consume honey myself anyway and see absolutely no reason why I would need to give it to my son.
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RawZi, can you link me to any of the sources Elainie provided or provide some of your own (I'm not interested in becoming a member of that raw vegan forum)? If the Inuit nursed "up to" 6 - 9 years, that means some nursed for fewer years, right? The typical HG numbers I've seen have been more in the 3-4 year range. That doesn't mean that some people didn't breastfeed for 6-9 years, just that I haven't seen those numbers reported as avg/typical for HGs. For example:
"Over 25 years ago, Schaefer (1973) reported that, among Canadian Eskimos, the traditional 3 to 4 years of prolonged breastfeeding ...." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1595048/
Since the typical spacing period between having children among HGs is also generally listed as 4 years, the 3-4 year breastfeeding figure matches up well with that.
Michael, if caregivers that your child should get solid food then you could give it Lex's raw mix or pemmican. That could be the option you give the caregivers: breast milk or raw mix or low-heat pemmican. If they have a problem with that, then you could refer them to Dr. Kurt Harris, Drs. Micheal and Mary Eades, Dr. Ron Hoffman, etc.
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RawZi, can you link me to any of the sources Elainie provided or provide some of your own (I'm not interested in becoming a member of that raw vegan forum)? If the Inuit nursed "up to" 6 - 9 years, that means some nursed for fewer years, right? The typical HG numbers I've seen have been more in the 3-4 year range. That doesn't mean that some people didn't breastfeed for 6-9 years, just that I haven't seen those numbers reported as avg/typical for HGs. For example:
"Over 25 years ago, Schaefer (1973) reported that, among Canadian Eskimos, the traditional 3 to 4 years of prolonged breastfeeding ...." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1595048/
Since the typical spacing period between having children among HGs is also generally listed as 4 years, the 3-4 year breastfeeding figure matches up well with that.
I'm not an expert at the history or anything along those lines of breast feeding. Elaine put forth lots of amazing stuff about it at GI2MR, but eventually deleted her account, and in that forum all your posts disappear when your account is off.
From your link:
McKim et al. (1998) discovered that, among Canadian Eskimos, 18.4% initiated breastfeeding, 4.5% were still breastfeeding at 4 weeks, and no one was breastfeeding at 16 weeks and beyond.
From rawpaleoforum I read members writing that Eskimos even a hundred years ago were contaminated by white man with the idea and providing of cooking pots. This tells me other issues sources nutrition could have been affected even that far back in time, maybe further.
I remember as a child reading books and articles about real people (mothers babies) who breast fed. There was an African tribe that the women kept the babies on their backs all day while these same mothers were working all day. The women had a practice of taking their children off their back carrier every single hour without fail and nursing them for at least a minute. They wouldn't have another child for four and a half years each time, even though they utilized no other method of family planning.
Is there proof, like carbon dating or something, that in times of history (or prehistory in this case as it be) of not nursing more than four years? I did not nurse any child of mine that long, but I do personally know women who nurse longer each child, and I have seen this in the flesh. If there are people who do this now, and the families are healthy, I see no reason it was not possible then. I assume most people have not seen this, as it surprised me. I thought it looked very strange at first. I did not think Americans ever nursed past two years of age.
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.... From your link:
Right, those are figures from 1995, well after "the traditional 3 to 4 years of prolonged breastfeeding" had been abandoned. I have seen multiple sources claim that the typical breastfeeding period among numerous HG peoples was 3-4 or so years. None claimed that 6 years was the minimum. I would be very interested in any that did, because that would be an intriguing claim that if true could greatly alter the current standard view.
From rawpaleoforum I read members writing that Eskimos even a hundred years ago were contaminated by white man with the idea and providing of cooking pots. This tells me other issues sources nutrition could have been affected even that far back in time, maybe further.
Perhaps, but that would also affect Elainie's sources.
They wouldn't have another child for four and a half years each time, even though they utilized no other method of family planning.
Exactly. There's that 4+ year figure again, that frequently gets mentioned.
Is there proof, like carbon dating or something, that in times of history (or prehistory in this case as it be) of not nursing more than four years? I did not nurse any child of mine that long, but I do personally know women who nurse longer each child, and I have seen this in the flesh. If there are people who do this now, and the families are healthy, I see no reason it was not possible then. I assume most people have not seen this, as it surprised me. I thought it looked very strange at first. I did not think Americans ever nursed past two years of age.
I've never claimed that no one ever nurses a child beyond 4 years and have seen video reports showing modern women nursing 8 and 9 year olds. All I'm saying is that 6 years is not generally accepted as the minimum number of years of breastfeeding among HGs. If you come across any evidence that it is, I'd be interested to see it.
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Right, those are figures from 1995, well after "the traditional 3 to 4 years of prolonged breastfeeding" had been abandoned. I have seen multiple sources claim that the typical breastfeeding period among numerous HG peoples was 3-4 or so years.
From your same link:
Native American women often fall into these categories (Long et al., 1995). The Inupiat Eskimos—a particular group of Native Americans who live in the North Slope region of Alaska, along the coast of the Arctic Ocean—seem to be experiencing a decline in the prevalence of breastfeeding. During the last 25 years, authors have documented that the Inupiat's lifestyle has changed from one of isolated subsistence to that of economic and social involvement in the prevailing American culture. This change has affected all areas of life (Blackwood, 1981). The Inupiats, like many other Native and Eskimo groups, have experienced lifestyle alterations directed away from their traditional cultural values. Within many Eskimo cultures, among the first things affected by acculturation was a change in the sources of food (Sayed, Hildes, & Schaefer, 1976). Blackwood (1981) reports that, during the 1950s, efforts were made by public health workers to replace and/or supplement breastfeeding with formula feeding, leading to a large shift toward formula feeding, especially in the first few months of life. Over 25 years ago, Schaefer (1973) reported that, among Canadian Eskimos, the traditional 3 to 4 years of prolonged breastfeeding had been shortened or abandoned with the increasing use of bottle feeding.
This could have been the 1950's, the 3-4 years, I don't think that could be compared to paleo there. Go to an organization like La Leche League International. I'm sure they have many links and books at their disposal, as well as info right at the front of their minds. They were amazingly helpful to me and mine when I had little questions or doubts in any way about breast feeding.
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All I'm saying is that 6 years is not generally accepted as the minimum number of years of breastfeeding among HGs. If you come across any evidence that it is, I'd be interested to see it.
I believe you that it is not generally accepted in academia or civilization. Even if it is accepted at a couple of universities or in several studies, it may never be generally accepted, and I do accept that. I do not know every one who conducts each study nor their experience nor motives. At this point in life I am a little happier with intuition than written "evidence". If I come across evidence, I will show you.
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From your same link:
...Go to an organization like La Leche League International. I'm sure they have many links and books at their disposal, as well as info right at the front of their minds. They were amazingly helpful to me and mine when I had little questions or doubts in any way about breast feeding.
Here's what they say: <<"Pediatricians and parents should be aware that exclusive breastfeeding is sufficient to support optimal growth and development for approximately the first 6 months of life and provides continuing protection against diarrhea and respiratory tract infection. Breastfeeding should be continued for at least the first year of life and beyond for as long as mutually desired by mother and child." * As solids are introduced, usually around the middle of the first year, your baby will shift his primary source of nutrition from your milk to other foods.>>
That sounds like pretty standard advice for today. The info from Paleo nutrition and anthropology sources indicates that breast milk alone is sufficient up to 4 years, but that high quality foods like raw meat and fat and pemmican are also fine after 6 months to a year.
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Here's what they say: <<"Pediatricians and parents should be aware that exclusive breastfeeding is sufficient to support optimal growth and development for approximately the first 6 months of life and provides continuing protection against diarrhea and respiratory tract infection. Breastfeeding should be continued for at least the first year of life and beyond for as long as mutually desired by mother and child."
That's this link: http://www.llli.org/FAQ/firstfoods.html (http://www.llli.org/FAQ/firstfoods.html)
I mean, telephone your local LLLI chapter. Speak with your area's group LLL leader, wherever you are. She can tell you things and give you information that is not on their FAQ list above.
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OK, I already received a reply from the local La Leche League contact and it matches much of what I found elsewhere, with various numbers ranging between 2.5 to 7 years:
<<This is such a fascinating question and really brings out the point that breastfeeding is not merely a biological function but is strongly influenced by culture. I think the reason you've found varying ranges is because the ranges varied. Katherine Dettwyler, of Texas A&M University, has studied and written on the "natural" age of weaning. Based on various biological factors and comparing humans to primates, a "natural" age of weaning might be anywhere between 2 1/2 and 7 years of age. Baby teeth were once referred to as "milk" teeth; children begin to lose their first teeth between the ages of 5 and 7. www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html
The longer duration of breastfeeding helps the child spacing and increases the likelihood of that child reaching adulthood.
According to Meredith Small, author of Our Babies, Ourselves, the !Kung San people of the Kalahari Desert, Botswana, are "some of the last remaining hunters and gatherers on earth." They are a semi-nomadic people still living for the most part a traditional, for them, lifestyle. The children nurse for four years. The Ache of Paraguay are a people who were traditionally hunter gatherers in a forest habitat and have been living in reservations for the last 40 years. Their current lifestyle "combines settled horticulture with long treks into the forest. These treks basically present the same restrictions, opportunities and dangers that living in the forest presented only a few years ago." The children here nurse for two years. "Ache women have an average of eight live births, much more than the !Kung San people of other South American Indian groups."
On the other hand, I recently read in The Spirit of the English Language by John Wulsin that Chaucer probably nursed until he was five. Juliet, of Romeo and Juliet nursed until the age of three.>>
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Here's what they say: <<"Pediatricians and parents should be aware that exclusive breastfeeding is sufficient to support optimal growth and development for approximately the first 6 months of life and provides continuing protection against diarrhea and respiratory tract infection. Breastfeeding should be continued for at least the first year of life and beyond for as long as mutually desired by mother and child." * As solids are introduced, usually around the middle of the first year, your baby will shift his primary source of nutrition from your milk to other foods.>>
That sounds like pretty standard advice for today. The info from Paleo nutrition and anthropology sources indicates that breast milk alone is sufficient up to 4 years, but that high quality foods like raw meat and fat and pemmican are also fine after 6 months to a year.
Fascinating research and discussion guys. I wish I had more time to study this subject myself and participate in this more fully but, unfortunately, I don't at the moment and am not greatly versed in this area. My gut feeling is that these points, PaleoPhil, are relevant and sufficient for our needs. Also, Naomi's comments regarding empowering our children to choose when to feed themselves is important and would also be a factor in the variance of age ranges you're finding, I think.
For my own son, I hope my partner is able to feed him for the first 2 years at least but will also be offering him raw paleo foods soon (now 6 months old) as he seems to be showing an interest in foods/drinks and is demonstrating a noticeable decrease in weight gain over recent weeks. As with all these discussions regarding diet and health, it's important not to lose sight of the importance of individual needs and circumstance.
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I agree 100% with everything you said, Michael. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Hello Michael
I am just curious as to how the last few months of weaning and feeding of your son has gone? What is his diet like now that he is getting a lot older and more independent?
Cheerio
Treis
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Hello Treis,
Albeit a little late, may I wish you a warm welcome to the forum. Thanks for your interest in this subject. I'll relate a little of the experiences so far to you and others who may be interested or find it useful.
My son, Charlie, is now almost 15 months old and is certainly a little boy now as opposed to a baby. He is walking quite well and shows great interest in everything. He is incredibly strong too and my partner already finds it's beyond her to control him when needed as he's too strong for her. I sometimes struggle myself! One can feel the incredible strength in his arms and bones already - particularly if unlucky enough to receive an accidental blow to the face from a flailing arm or head. Growing up in a large family I have much experience around babies and children and have never known anything like it! His head, particularly, is like a solid lump of rock! His teeth, also, never fail to raise a comment when we're out. Strangers are forever amazed at how big and white they are! :) I'm beginning to wonder if he is foregoing the milk teeth stage!
Charlie is still being fed breast milk extensively which I'm extremely happy about. He's shown no indication of choosing not to continue with this as yet and we intend leaving this choice up to him.
Incredibly, he's only really been eating food over the last couple of months or so and, even now, it's not in great quantities. I suppose this is partly because he's still receiving great nutrients from the breast milk and also because the solid food he is receiving is highly nutritious so he only requires small amounts. Certainly, he appears to be growing very well compared to his peers and the weight difference is significant when compared to similar sized children. I don't subscribe to the modern day phenomena of blending anything and everything into puree to feed him and would rather he eats real food when his body suggests it's ready. I think great physical and psychological damage can possibly result from doing otherwise. This has caused a great deal of stress and friction between myself and my partner along with other family members as they're all so overwhelmingly brainwashed with the accepted views in this respect. Fortunately, my partner has now recognised that her concerns had no foundation. My mother on the other hand, I'm sure, would've been so happy if he were being fed vast quantities of pureed cooked vegetables and grains even if the resultant poor health was in stark contrast to his current accepted thriving health. If he is particularly unhappy or tired one day or if he has a couple of nights not sleeping well it all gets blamed by family on our dietary choices. They're so indoctrinated into current thinking and the accepted modern view that the obvious huge positive differences between him and other children somehow becomes overlooked!
His diet is not perfect in my own view in many respects and it is not precisely the kind of food I would CHOOSE to give him. There are compromises being made partly due to my partner's insistence and partly due to Charlie's own choices when accepting or rejecting particular foods. I have certainly endeavoured to feed him a variety if raw paleo foods in different forms as would be my preference but he's shown no interest.
Since he started eating, we have been able to feed him the following foods: raw grass-fed jersey butter, raw egg yolks, raw goat yoghurt, homemade beef bone stock used as a base to prepare a fishy broth (his preferred food) using a variety of fish & seafood including tuna, mackerel, wild alaskan salmon, mussels, cockles, crab & shrimp. I sometimes manage to scrape a little raw beef or raw lamb heart from a steak using a lemon zester and mix this into his cooled broth. He does thoroughly enjoy unpasteurised sheep/goat cheese but I'm not keen to provide him with dairy and have even stopped giving him the raw goat yoghurt. He drinks nothing but breast milk and glass bottled mineral water. To my amazement, he actually loves the Green Pastures Blue Ice fermented cod liver oil too so he occasionally has a 1ml shot of this with his meals.
He has never eaten (to my knowledge!) any fruits/fruit juices, vegetables or grains.
Is there anything else you'd like to know? I'm happy to answer any questions.
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.... I have certainly endeavoured to feed him a variety if raw paleo foods in different forms as would be my preference but he's shown no interest. ....
This boy appears to like liver (but be careful to avoid hypervitaminosis A from excess liver)--at least when it's mixed with raw milk and egg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54OGGE6zdXk.
It's not raw, but I've yet to encounter a young child that didn't like pemmican. I wonder if a raw form of pemmican would be tasty--like air-dried beef jerky blended with marrow or other soft animal fat that might not need to be rendered?
Based on http://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health/319-recipes-for-homemade-baby-formula.html, the following raw foods might be good for an infant/young child:
liver
coconut oil
fermented cod liver oil
And I would think that beef blood would be good. But I haven't researched infant foods thoroughly, so your guess is probably as good as mine.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts Phil.
Yes, I had seen that video recently on another thread somewhere. Very interesting, although I'm not so sure vast quantities of liver are a particularly wise idea for an infant.
I haven't tried giving Charlie any liver yet. He has had raw heart grated into his cooled broth but I've suspected the liver taste may be too strong so far. It's a fine balancing act to avoid excessive and expensive food wastage! :)
He strongly detests VCO (which I think is, perhaps, telling of it's position with regard to being a valid human food).
As I mentioned, he does love the fermented CLO and has been having a 1ml shot quite frequently.
I'm very keen for him to have jerky and he does enjoy sucking/chewing it and has done since he was about 8 months old. Hopefully, when his teeth are all through he'll be able to eat it along with some raw fats. I'm still not sure about pemmican and the ongoing 'discussions' on the forum about it have only confused me further. I'll probably avoid it if I can get him eating other RPD foods.
Any other suggestions greatly welcomed! :)
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts Phil.
Yes, I had seen that video recently on another thread somewhere. Very interesting, although I'm not so sure vast quantities of liver are a particularly wise idea for an infant.
I don't think the couple in the video specified the amount of liver used, and I don't recall Aajonus recommending large intakes for neonates, so I doubt it's "vast quantities."
I haven't tried giving Charlie any liver yet. He has had raw heart grated into his cooled broth but I've suspected the liver taste may be too strong so far.
The father in that video said the baby loved liver the first time he tried it.
I'm still not sure about pemmican and the ongoing 'discussions' on the forum about it have only confused me further. I'll probably avoid it if I can get him eating other RPD foods.
Any other suggestions greatly welcomed! :)
I meant raw pemmican rather than pemmican.
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No, you're right Phil, I don't think the video did specify exact amounts. I guess it just sounded like vast quantities to me when they said he drinks 5 or 6 bottles of this 'formula' every day and nothing else. Obviously, I don't know the amount of liver in the formula AV gave them (and loaned out my AV recipe book years ago so can't check!) but I'd be concerned about copper and vitamin A/D overdose nonetheless.
I'm still a little unsure what the consensus is on methods of making 'raw' pemmican particularly when my absence from the forum meant I was only sporadically following threads. I got the impression that William heats his fat greatly in excess of 118 deg C but considers it raw because he filters out the deleterious proteins. Inga, I believe, makes her raw pemmican using bone marrow which would be delicious but I have great trouble sourcing even tiny quantities of this, unfortunately.
Could you point me in the direction of any specific threads or links with instructions on making raw pemmican Phil?
Of course, the other problem I'd have is that I also greatly struggle to obtain sufficient quantities of raw suet too - hence my own return to raw grass-fed butter!
Any suggestions from other members who have raised RPD children or do not necessarily even have children but have some good ideas of how they'd try raising their own RPD children?!
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I was forced to make mt own custom formula when my wife couldn't keep up milk production for my second and third child's ravonous appetites.
Even before I discovered raw animal food diet, I was acutely aware of the piss poor quality of nearly all commercial baby formula.
What I did was take this stuff called Baby's only toddler formula(its the only organic formula that doesn't contain the toxic genetically modified fungus oil that is being called DHA. This is my latest conspiracy.
In 2004 the FDA Made it mandatory for DHA be added to all infant formula(seems reasonable)
Wrong, the only form of DHA being used is a profanely toxic form, that is derived from a Genetically modified fungus and extracted with hexane.
The trials on this stuff they call DHA showed serious concerns about sideeffects, It was given approval anyway and is now in every commercial formula. The brains of the baby's fed this stuff may be negatively effected by this unnatural form of DHA( this is a warning please take this threat seriously
http://cornucopia.org/DHA/DHA_Update_2_09.pdf
I believe this is more sinister, the trials of this stuff proved that it is toxic but it was forced into infant formula anyway, I know this stuff causes more than Just digestive issues, It builds inferior brains.Please under no circumstance should you feed this to your infant.
Anyway I take 2 parts baby's only toddler formula(fungus oil free) and 1 part goats milk then top it off with a teaspoon of raw coconut oil, once a day I add Baby's only DHA(egg based)This is extremely digestible and has helped me to grow the most beautiful babies you ever saw:
(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk1/sarahab88/100807_131746.jpg)
(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk1/sarahab88/100809_161911.jpg)
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...I'm still a little unsure what the consensus is on methods of making 'raw' pemmican particularly when my absence from the forum meant I was only sporadically following threads. I got the impression that William heats his fat greatly in excess of 118 deg C but considers it raw because he filters out the deleterious proteins. Inga, I believe, makes her raw pemmican using bone marrow which would be delicious but I have great trouble sourcing even tiny quantities of this, unfortunately.
Could you point me in the direction of any specific threads or links with instructions on making raw pemmican Phil?
Marrow is what I was thinking of. I gave up trying to understand why William thought his pemmican was raw. I tried coconut oil pemmican once, but it tasted so nasty to me and made me so nauseas that I haven't been able to eat coconut oil again since.
I received a late response from one of the La Leche League people. This should get Tyler good and riled up: ;)
I asked: I have a question: do you know what the range of time that Paleolithic or modern hunter gatherer women breastfed their infants was? I have seen figures ranging from 2 to 9 years, with 3-4 years being the most commonly avg. length of time reported.
Michelle has left a new comment on the post "La Leche League":
Hi there! Sorry for the late response but for some reason I don't get notification when people respond. I was scrolling through old posts when I saw this.
From what I have read, anthropologically the weaning age is from 2 to 7 years. Sadly, most American women fall way short of this.
That fits in with what I've read in anthropology books.
That being said, I think the main reason hunter gatherer women breast fed their babies more than 6 months was because breast milk is conveniently available healthy food, so why not use it. When the baby teeth come in, I figure it's probably OK to feed an infant mostly RPD foods. Ray Audette had good results feeding his son mostly pemmican starting at the age of 6 months (that should also get Tyler going ;) ).
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This should get Tyler good and riled up: ;) ..... (that should also get Tyler going ;) ).
ha ha :) Over to you Tyler! ;)
PaleoPhil, I'm glad that I wasn't the only one confused and mystified by William's pemmican posts! :) I would dearly love a sufficient and reliable source of marrow but just can't seem to get it. Coconut oil pemmican?! My god, you're brave even trying it. Just the thought makes me feel extremely nauseous right now!
My partner is still feeding vast quantities of breast milk to my son daily and, importantly, eating well herself. He'll be 15 months old in a few days time. I'm hoping she'll keep it up until at least 2yrs old which I'd be exceptionally happy with! He has plenty of teeth already but rarely bites her. No molars yet though so chewing meats etc is not possible. I'm hoping to get him on the good stuff as soon as the molars are through and he's learned what they're for! :)
Hey, sabertooth. Truly beautiful babies! Good work!
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Michael,
Breezed through the posts and here are a few thoughts;
Honey according to Ayurveda is only poisonous when heated hotter than then temperature of tea that you can drink. So never cook with it.
My Tibetan friend tells me that back home kids would sometimes suckle on the yaks in their youth. (obviously with their mother also)
I was listening to an audiobook recently (i forget which one) in which the author discussed a female anthropologist who worked in Africa in remote areas studying the locals who still lived as in the past. She concluded a bunch of things but a very interesting one was that the women there suckled the children for long periods and were regularly pregnant. Therefore these women had very few periods over their lives, say in the region of 100 - 125 as opposed to western women who would typically have 400 periods. She deduced from studying the effects of differing hormones on the body that the long lactation combined with the pregnancy was responsible for their remarkable lack of cancers associated with women. The menstruation in the first world countries was ravaging the women. So your wife is not just doing her child a favour. Good for her. I was breastfed.
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Well, I've already pointed out numerous ways in which pemmican can be seen as being unhealthy. As for the la leche league, they are extremists so can't be trusted re their claims. I would say, 2-4 years is more normal for HGs judging from reports, and besides the primary reason they did such breast-feeding was due to the contraceptive nature of breastfeeding. In the age of the Pill, weaning should be done much earlier. Besides, on a logical, evolutionary and scientific basis, babies should be given solid food once their first teeth are fully grown.
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Well, Tyler, your views apparently aren't as different from mine as I expected. Yes, 2-4 years seem to be the most common weaning points for HGs, based on what I've read in scientific sources, and that fits nicely in the 2-7 years range, which is the total range (also from scientific sources)--meaning it would include the more extreme outliers of HG groups. It doesn't mean that 7 years is a common weaning age, if that's how you took it. So it looks our numbers jibe, but no doubt you'll still find a way to disagree. ;)
I'm also not implying that 2-4 years is optimal or necessary in today's modern world. Nor am I implying that zero other foods should be eaten before weaning. IIRC, Ray Audette started giving his son pemmican (sinfully heated--bad Ray, bad! :P ) at the age of 6 months. Nor am I implying by mentioning Ray's version of pemmican that I think anyone should heat their pemmican the way Ray does, as I've seen enough of your rants on heated pemmican (but I hadn't seen you rant about LLL--who I'm not promoting, BTW--in quite a while, so that was entertaining--thanks. Good times, good times. ;D ). It's been quite a while since I've eaten pemmican of any sort, incidentally.
Your apparent confusion about RAW pemmican is understandable, given William's bizarre past posts on the subject. You may have missed my original question: "I wonder if a raw form of pemmican would be tasty--like air-dried beef jerky blended with marrow or other soft animal fat that might not need to be rendered?" (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/weaning/msg42882/#msg42882; note also that it was a question, not an assertion.) Does that not qualify as sufficiently raw? It's basically Lex's RAW mix (NOT his pemmican) except that air-dried lean meat is used instead of ground beef/organs and marrow instead of suet. If you've got some aversion to the term "pemmican" (perhaps due to William-inspired flashbacks? :P ), perhaps you can suggest another one-or-two-word term?
At any rate, I'm pretty sure Michael understood what I meant on these subjects, even if you didn't.
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The whole point of pemmican is that it is meant to be a food stored for long periods - a raw version would not last as long and therefore be useless as a stored food. So, I don't see the point of laboriously processing raw meats via drying in order to make pemmican.
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I agree that 2-4 years seems the most reasonable timescale for breastfeeding/weaning. As a note of interest, I have noticed that Charlie is becoming increasingly disinterested in breast milk already at 15 months old. He still relishes it upon rising and before bed but, other times, is often happy to go without or takes more interest in the external environment instead.
For the record, I did understand what you meant Phil thanks. If I could obtain the marrow, I would have no hesitation in making some raw pemmican for Charlie as I feel it would be a wonderful food source for him and may be something that he'd eat. I agree that perhaps we should 're-brand' it to disassociate it from it's rendered suet counterpart. With the elements of 'pemmican', 'bone marrow as fat' and 'raw' I would suggest, perhaps, 'prawmiccone'? ;)
To update the thread, I can now advise that I've managed to get Charlie to eat his first bowl of RAF! I'd frozen some wild alaskan salmon that wasn't going to get eaten in time. With this process supposedly removing the parasite issues that are still a concern for me with raw fish/seafood, I proceeded to defrost and mash this up for him. He spat it out as usual! So, I added a teaspoon of raw butter and dehydrated it at 95deg for an hour or so which greatly improved the texture. He's eaten the entire steak! :) I'll be experimenting along these lines with other fish too and am hopeful that, eventually, I'll be in a position to feed him a good variety of raw fish, seafood and meats. Of course, I won't be freezing the meats but hope he'll eat them as his teeth continue to develop.
Raw-al, thanks for your thoughts. You're most fortunate to have been breast-fed and should thank your mother for giving you such a wonderful start in life. I'd read about the studies you mentioned somewhere too recently. I think the benefits of breastfeeding for mother and child are limitless! I could relate a further personal tale which may be relevant to such discussion - My ex-partner and the mother of my 12 year old daughter sadly died 18 months ago following a long battle with breast cancer. She was just 34. She breast-fed my daughter for just over 12 months. She had 2 further young children with her new husband who were aged 3 and 4 when she died (too closely spaced!) neither of which were breast-fed. Of course, there were probably other factors too (poor diet, heavy mobile phone use, living near a pylon etc) but I think the breast-feeding and lack of spacing on her two later children were a big factor in her breast cancer.
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Michael,
Interesting, I know when I mention these studies I am sometimes concerned that women who are childless by choice or by chance may feel bad and I therefore feel I should withhold comments because I don't think that making someone feel bad is good.
My GF was unable to breastfeed (very long story) but she did her best and found a book written by a lady who had a theory about feeding the child with food for their brain. She diligently followed the instructions and low and behold he graduated from Yale in medicine and psychiatry at the top of his class and went to Harvard to do his fellowship in child and adolescent psy. at the top of the class. He is brilliant, athletic in a healthy way and very kind.
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raw-al, good point. Although I'm aware of such possibilities and manage to refrain at most times my poor memory and eagerness/passion for the subject matter can sometimes lead to small indiscretions! I hope nobody here took offence at my comments and offer my apologies if they made anybody feel bad. I wasn't intending to be at all judgmental and, even speaking from my social work background, am sure that all mother's/parents do the best they can given their own unique circumstances.
Wonderful success story raw-al! That's incredible! Congratulations and thanks for sharing. I'm assuming this is also your son? I'd be interested in details of the lady/book. Of course, as parents, we all want our children to achieve great success (and happiness) and I'd be extremely proud if Charlie were to do half as well as your son. Importantly, I think, was your final note that he's also very kind. Without such humanity I think the rest is worthless.
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My GF's son is the progeny of a prior engagement. I have tried to squeeze the name of the book but it has faded from her memory. Apparently the mixture that she fed her son was quite interesting. I will try again for the name of the book or author. He is 36 now.
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Tyler, you may not see the point, but I (and Michael) see several, many of which I have related to you in the past, but for some reason you have repeatedly ignored my answers and obsess over long-term preservation, which few here other than Lex seem interested in. I myself have zero interest currently in long term preservation except for the purpose of aging or fermenting meat.
Unless one is trying to save money or time or ferment foods, I don't see a lot of point in making foods last forever in the modern world, as fresh food is always readily available. I do have an interest in making tasty healthy foods that I can port around and easily and quickly chew and digest and that might help keep my food intakes and body weight up. RAW pemmican (such as raw, air-dried jerky plus raw marrow) has NOTHING to do with long term food preservation (as far as I know--unless one can make high meat with it). I cannot account for why you would imagine that someone would be talking about long-term food preservation when discussing fully RAW pemmican.
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Sidebar:
I know you see heated pemmican as evil, so please spare us the diatribes, but there's also a potential reason for me (not you) to consider eating heated pemmican and heated beef jerky instead of raw beef. According to studies, heating the lean portion of beef denatures the bovine serum albumin (a potentially antigenic protein which can trigger antibodies that I tested positive for) and thus partially inactivates it. This is something that has been discussed in this forum multiple times in the past.
"Recent findings: Heating generally decreases protein allergenicity by destroying conformational epitopes."
([urel=http://journals.lww.com/co-allergy/Abstract/2009/06000/Rare,_medium,_or_well_done__The_effect_of_heating.11.aspx]"Rare, medium, or well done? The effect of heating and food matrix on food protein allergenicity,"[/url] Current Opinion in Allergy & Clinical Immunology)
It's interesting that you yourself have argued in the past that heating the lean portion of meat is less of a problem than heating the fat, and you've apparently even eaten cooked lean meat at times, and the BSA issue coincides interestingly with this. Maybe one option for me would be raw marrow mixed with heat-dried jerky. I'm also considering spending more to buy other meats that I don't develop as much antibodies to, but I've got to find my test results. Please note: I'm not advocating this for anyone else, so spare me the lectures.
My hair loss and constipation seem to have increased a bit over the last few months, so I think my sensitivity to the BSA in raw lean beef may be increasing mildly. Danny Roddy's experience seems to also suggest that BSA in raw beef may be the main issue:
Yes, my hair loss has ceased for the time being. My hair has gotten thicker and more robust as well. The pain and inflammation I used to experience is no more on pemmican.
In the interest of full disclosure a week on raw introduced me to shedding. I'm back on pemmican.
I'm not sure if there's a direct correlation, but I've noticed that my five o' clock shadow has gotten a little darker since I switched to muscle fat.
January 11, 2010 | Danny Roddy
http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/5/17/diseases-of-civilization-hair-loss.html#comment6889599
My overall experience is not identical to Danny's, though, as he said he gets colder when he eats ZC and gets warmer when he eats carbs like potatoes. For me it is the opposite.
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My point was simply that pemmican was always meant as a food to be brought along while travelling, because of its long-term durability . Otherwise, if long-term storage is not an issue, it makes more sense to just bring along some raw animal foods. in the form of raw eggs or raw muscle-meats or whatever. Though perhaps raw pemmican might look more like a cooked/processed food once it's been ground up or whatever? That would be useful in social situations, I suppose.
I am deeply sceptical re notions of allergenicity of raw meats. Granted, there are now more and more people with very unusual allergies due to faulty environment(lack of exposure to sufficient bacteria etc.) but there are better ways to get round this sucha s sensitisation over time rather than processing a food. Anyway, last I checked, cooking usually increases the allergenicity of a food(that's already been proven as regards comparison studies between raw and pasteurised dairy).
I am not so bothered re your mention of "raw pemmican", I do draw the line though at frequent mentions by others re rendering fats, which is extremely unhealthy.
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I came across another source on weaning age among traditional peoples that fits in pretty well with the others:
"Babies are wholly breast-fed until the end of the 2nd year when meat is added to their diet. Children often nurse irregularly until the age of 4 or 6." (Studies on the Metabolism of Eskimos, by Peter Heinbecker, the Departments of Biological Chemistry and Physiology, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis. Received for publication, July 9, 1928. http://www.jbc.org/content/80/2/461.full.pdf)
Weaning seems to have been a gradual process, rather than an instant cut-off age.