Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet => Topic started by: JaX on November 09, 2008, 03:11:27 am
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I have access to some very good raw, unheated, unfiltered, local honey with lots of pollen in it.
I've heard two sides to the honey argument. There are those that argue honey, regardless whether its raw, is a pure sugar with little or no benefits. Then there is the other argument, held by for example AV, who says raw honey does the body good and doesn't really affect blood sugar levels that drastically.
Now I gotta say I really love raw honey. I could eat it by its own (although I don't think it's a good idea) so when I eat it I always mix it with nuts (lots of fat) and I often eat it after a meal with protein/fat. But even though I mix it with other things I end up eating a lot of honey when I buy it. I might end up eating 100 grams of honey which is 100 grams of sugar - which is a lot.
Can someone tell me exactly what AV said about honey? what are the benefits and how much it should be used? I really can't understand he discourages fruits but then says honey is perfectly fine. I mean honey has a lot higher sugar density than fruit and less vitamins. 100 grams of apple has 20 grams of sugar but 100 grams of honey is 100 grams of sugar.
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Aajonus eats raw honey with butter. I tried that and it makes sense.
I also add raw honey with extra virgin olive oil and use that as a dip for cucumbers. Good snack.
Raw honey is also useful for scrapes and cuts.
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I was following Av's primal diet for about 4 years which included LOTS of raw honey - usually eaten with plenty of raw butter. Honey and dairy products were the last foods I've dropped on my way to my current diet which is largely fatty grass-fed meats & organs, fish/seafood, bone marrow and a few low-carb fruits/veggies.
Like you Seeker, I love raw honey but I finally had to admit that it was doing me no good whatsoever. Ok, it may well be rich in minerals and enzymes (over 5000 apparently found so far!) but I found the overall effect to be negative. I would regularly experience the 'sugar blues' from using honey (even when combined with fats) and had to accept, in the end, that this wasn't some kind of mystical AV 'detox' but just the results of spiking my blood sugars.
I have felt a hell of a lot better without the magic nectar! But, that is just my own experience. I believe I have problems with candida (and always have had) so this may be the reason honey is not good in my case. My own feeling on it is that it is a wonderful food if used sparingly - as it would have been in nature when tribes were fortunate enough to come across wild hives. I think raw bee pollen is also potentially a wonderfully nutritious food, again, if used sparingly. It is so incredibly rich in amino acids, vitamins/minerals and enzymes that it would be a shame not to utilise it.
My suggestion to you would be this. If you have no issues with candida, hypoglycemia, diabetes etc then small amounts (perhaps 1 tsp a day MAX!) of raw unfiltered pollen rich honey eaten with fats would be a useful addition to your diet.
Michael
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Most RPDers find they do better if they greatly limit the honey. I would suggest going in for raw honeycomb(heather honeycomb is among the best honeycombs re taste) as honeycomb doesn't cause such a huge immediate spike in blood-sugar levels as raw, liquid honey(at least, that's what I found). Over a whole year, I'd say, eat a tablespoonful of raw honeycomb a week, and that's enough, really.
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One teaspoon of honey PER day or one tablespoon per week?... In those cases I think I'd better avoid honey altogether, because if I ate that I wouldn't satisfy the craving I have for honey and it would leave me craving more..
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An easy experiment (which I do with all carbohydrate foods) is to purchase a glucose monitor from a pharmacy, consume the carbohydrate (e.g., raw honey), and measure your blood sugar level every 10-15 minutes after consumption of the food. You will most likely observe how the blood sugar from consuming raw honey spikes up within 10 minutes of consuming it and starts to settle down after 30 minutes. Berries (eaten in equal amount of carbs) also cause a blood sugar spike but much smaller as compared to honey. Berries mixed with appropriate amounts of fat causes little/no sugar spike. A blood glucose monitor is very useful in seeing how your body reacts to carbohydrate foods.
Todd
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OK I finally put the claims re: raw honey to the test. I used raw comb honey--the kind that is made right in the cannister so there is no heating whatsoever--you can't get any rawer than that. They don't even have to hand-pack it, as the bees make the comb right in the containers. I found it via Internet search after Tyler mentioned how truly raw comb honey is not clear like the stuff sold in most stores. I had never heard of it before, so it was a pretty neat experience--and very tasty (and expensive).
First, here is some reference data for comparison:
Blood Sugar Numbers
http://www.naturaldiabetics.com/blood-sugar-numbers/
This is information assembled from the ADA website, and a number of other sources....
Recommended targets for Diabetics:
Fasting: below 110
1 hour post-prandial: below 180
2 hours post-prandial: below 140 (this is a controversial number, many sources are still using the older goal of 180)
Recommended targets for Diabetics:
Normal Blood Sugar Readings:
Fasting: below 100
1 hour post-prandial: below 140
2 hours post-prandial: below 120
Here are my results:
5.21.10
5:51PM My random glucose after 4 hours of fasting = 87
5:55PM ate 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey (experienced some burning feeling on the tongue; noticed cinnamon notes--excellent tasting honey)
6:55PM random glucose 1 hour after eating 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey = 186 mg/dl
7:55PM random glucose 2 hours after eating 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey = 146 mg/dl
So my blood sugar numbers after eating raw comb honey were apparently a bit high even for diabetics! :o I'll bet that my numbers get spiked even more by heated honey. I hope to test that soon.
Has anyone else tested their blood sugar before and after eating raw honey?
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made right in the cannister so there is no heating whatsoever--you can't get any rawer than that. They don't even have to hand-pack it, as the bees make the comb right in the containers. I found it via Internet search after Tyler mentioned how truly raw comb honey is not clear like the stuff sold in most stores. I had never heard of it before, so it was a pretty neat experience--and very tasty ... some burning feeling on the tongue; noticed cinnamon notes--excellent tasting honey) ...
Sounds nice. Maybe I'll try some. I'll mention it to my son too, since he eats a good bit of honey. It didn't have actual cinnamon in it, did it? Cinnamon burns my skin. I like the taste though. My friend who turned me onto RAF, she used to get raw honey with spices and cinnamon in it for her organic hot raw chocolate milk. I think she just bought raw because she knew it was more likely to be really organic.
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Mixing honey with nuts can caused digestion issues for me. (gas & bloating).
Mixing it with a pure fat with no proteins would be a better choice.
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The Rabbit Mountain comb honey is just pure raw comb honey with nothing added. It just has a note of a slightly different flavor that reminds me of cinnamon, which probably comes from the fact that the pollen, royal jelly, etc. are not filtered out of the honey.
Eating that honey gave me a craving for more, so I ate some of the Champlain Valley Apiaries extractor-spun raw honey and got quite chilled. I seem to be very sensitive to even raw honey (and raw fruits as well as lactose and all other carbs that are sugary or come from plants). The only carbs I seem to handle well are those that come from animal body sources (such as liver, shellfish and eggs).
I'm getting these strong effects from raw honey even while taking Dr. Ron's iodine daily, so I guess that hasn't offset my carb intolerance as significantly as I hoped it might.
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hot raw chocolate milk
Isn't there a contradiction in that?
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Mixing honey with nuts can caused digestion issues for me. (gas & bloating).
Mixing it with a pure fat with no proteins would be a better choice.
Fat and carbs don't go well together. That's the problem, not the protein
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Isn't there a contradiction in that?
Yes. I was vegan at the time, had been so many years. She said to me she's stricter than vegan. She said she would buy a little raw dairy for her baby. As it turned out she stretched the words raw and strict a bit of a way. Turned out whole fish was a little raw dairy, and frying eggs in her kitchen was a little raw dairy, melting cheese on vege burgers was a little raw dairy, and the whole family eating it was for the baby, even if this was all in a restaurant.
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which probably comes from the fact that the pollen, royal jelly, etc. are not filtered out of the honey.
Eating that honey gave me a craving for more,
That's from Colorado?
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Then... I'm a fruitarian who eats an occassional egg yolk :D
Yes. I was vegan at the time, had been so many years. She said to me she's stricter than vegan. She said she would buy a little raw dairy for her baby. As it turned out she stretched the words raw and strict a bit of a way. Turned out whole fish was a little raw dairy, and frying eggs in her kitchen was a little raw dairy, melting cheese on vege burgers was a little raw dairy, and the whole family eating it was for the baby, even if this was all in a restaurant.
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Then... I'm a fruitarian who eats an occassional egg yolk :D
I'm a raw vegan, I just add a little honey and suet.
PS I'll be right back. Taking a break for a snack. I'm dying for some high meat here. I have half a dozen different kinds.
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First, here is some reference data for comparison:Here are my results:
5.21.10
5:51PM My random glucose after 4 hours of fasting = 87
5:55PM ate 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey (experienced some burning feeling on the tongue; noticed cinnamon notes--excellent tasting honey)
6:55PM random glucose 1 hour after eating 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey = 186 mg/dl
7:55PM random glucose 2 hours after eating 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey = 146 mg/dl
So my blood sugar numbers after eating raw comb honey were apparently a bit high even for diabetics! :o I'll bet that my numbers get spiked even more by heated honey. I hope to test that soon.
Has anyone else tested their blood sugar before and after eating raw honey?
I've only just seen this post whilst trying to catch up on some of the discussions I've missed! Fantastic scientific investigative work Phil! Well done!
Boy, those results must've been disappointing for you. I'm excited to try this experiment myself now. I have access to raw honey-comb and possess a digital blood sugar monitor (somewhere?!) from my hypoglycemia days. I'll report back if I manage to conduct the tests!
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...Boy, those results must've been disappointing for you.
:( Don't remind me. There was much swearing after I saw the numbers. I recently tried one cup of heirloom organic blueberries and even that sent my BG from 106 to 149 mg/dl an hour later. Damn! I was so hoping against hope that berries wouldn't have much impact on my BG :( --although I suspected they would. I didn't bother with the 2 hour reading, as it was getting late and I was hungry. [Note to those who think BG and insulin are meaningless--please no lectures about such tests being useless, I'm not in the mood and I also get other symptoms beyond BG spikes from raw honey and fruits--and please don't ask me to try to remember them all again, poor short-term memory is one of the symptoms. :) Thanks for your understanding.]
I'm excited to try this experiment myself now. I have access to raw honey-comb and possess a digital blood sugar monitor (somewhere?!) from my hypoglycemia days. I'll report back if I manage to conduct the tests!
Glad you're back to provide some rational discourse and real-world experimental data, albeit limited to one test subject. I guess I'll put off my summer break from this forum a bit longer.
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Honey is basically glorified sugar by the "health food crowd".People tend to make all kinds of excuses,theories,and whatever story to justify to themselves that its good to eat.
Sorry to spoil the party.
Btw,nuts are also a bad choice.I used to be in love with pistachios and macadamias until I had some problems recently and did more research on the processing.Honestly,they're only good if you pick'em from the tree yourself.In processing,nuts are dried to death.Macadamias are dried(in machines,not sunlight) for over 2 weeks to lower their moisture content from above 30% to below 1.9% ! That sucks.
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Honey is basically glorified sugar by the "health food crowd".People tend to make all kinds of excuses,theories,and whatever story to justify to themselves that its good to eat.
Begrudgingly, you're probably correct KS. Lex is certainly of the same opinion too. I think part of the justification with honey is related to the fact that it's a food which is naturally available in the wild (if one's fortunate enough to locate and successfully raid a wild nest!!). Also, other factors such as it's undeniable richness in minerals and over 5000 enzymes (which, according to some, is of no value anyhow as they're instantly destroyed by digestion). It's reputation is also probably enhanced by historical tales of it being used medicinally as far back as ancient Egypt and by long-living cultures such as the Georgians. It may very well be the case that, actually, it does us no good whatsoever and these are merely ALL just justifications for another great-tasting sugar addiction!
Btw,nuts are also a bad choice.I used to be in love with pistachios and macadamias until I had some problems recently and did more research on the processing.Honestly,they're only good if you pick'em from the tree yourself.In processing,nuts are dried to death.Macadamias are dried(in machines,not sunlight) for over 2 weeks to lower their moisture content from above 30% to below 1.9% ! That sucks.
I was aware that buying shelled nuts is a bad idea for this reason and that it's a compete waste of time when all these people diligently soak/low temperature dry their commercially shelled nuts (as I, too, used to do!). But, I wasn't aware that nuts bought in their shells had also been dried and had previously taken to buying 25kg bags of walnuts, macademias, hazelnuts/filberts in their shells from a local parrot food supplier. The economical advantage over small bags of shelled health shop nuts was staggering. I no longer consume any nuts myself.
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:( Don't remind me. There was much swearing after I saw the numbers.
I can imagine! Without wishing to pre-empt my results, I expect a similar outcome. I recall 8 hour glucose tolerance tests I conducted on myself pre-RPD days confirming my suspected hypoglycemic curve.
I recently tried one cup of heirloom organic blueberries and even that sent my BG from 106 to 149 mg/dl an hour later. Damn! I was so hoping against hope that berries wouldn't have much impact on my BG :( ... [Note to those who think BG and insulin are meaningless--please no lectures about such tests being useless, I'm not in the mood and I also get other symptoms beyond BG spikes from raw honey and fruits--and please don't ask me to try to remember them all again, poor short-term memory is one of the symptoms. :) Thanks for your understanding.]
That's incredible isn't it! Hopefully, at least, this should provide sufficient evidence for other's who discredit your very real and personal experiences with carbs - of course, apart from some who also discount the validity of such testing altogether!! :) I can relate to the short-term memory issues. Mine is virtually non-existent!
Glad you're back to provide some rational discourse and real-world experimental data, albeit limited to one test subject. I guess I'll put off my summer break from this forum a bit longer.
Thanks Phil. That should provide me with sufficient motivation to find that blood sugar monitor (involving rummaging around the attic!) and to get on with the testing! :)
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I recently tried one cup of heirloom organic blueberries and even that sent my BG from 106 to 149 mg/dl an hour later.
Were you insulin resistant before LC?
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That's from Colorado?
Oops, missed this question. Yes, that honeycomb was from Colorado. Other Internet sources of made-right-in-the-can raw honeycomb have popped up since and they're all small, so maybe they sell until they run out or maybe they just drop off the search engines from time to time due to low traffic.
Were you insulin resistant before LC?
I had the same symptoms, so presumably so, but I've never been clinically diagnosed, because physicians tend to only do fasting BG tests, where I tend to score very low, like 72-74, which makes them happy, but some sources online say that the low FBG #'s of many people may actually be falling too low and that there should be less variation in the daily BG, but I don't know for sure. I just suspect I may be moderately insulin resistant based on KGH's guess and my BG readings.
Re: raw honey--I've noticed a lot of disagreement between people over what to eat it with. I tend to put more weight on nature than human opinions, though I take everything into account. Nature provides grubcomb with the honeycomb. The grubs provide both fat and protein, but they tend to be fatty, so the fat-with-honey opinion sounds plausible, but I don't know the metabolic science behind it all to understand why it would help. Plus, for me neither fat nor protein seemed to offset the negative effects of honey very much, but maybe the fat helps people like HGs who have healthier systems.
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My daughter is a Type 1 diabetic. She tests BG all day, every day. There are 2 kinds of carbs - fast-acting carbs and slow acting carbs. The only slow acting carb foods are non-starchy vegetables. You will get a spike with any other carb food, whether it be fruit (including berries), honey, whole grains, starchy vegetables, or any other kind of sugar or carb. Eating carbs with fat does not prevent the spike. The body is very efficient at turning carbs into glucose. Even non-starchy vegetables will raise the BG, but it won't spike. Actually, even protein is turned into glucose by the body and will raise BG levels, though much more slowly. That is why you don't really need to eat carbs at all. The body will make what it needs from the protein. It is the spike (and the resulting insulin response) that causes damage to the body.
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Angeline: Nice post.These are the kinds of posts I like to read.Simple,informative,to the point,no fluff or dreamy theories/stories.
Phil:Just because nature put bees on the earth,it doesn't mean that honey is a good food for humans.Try living in a cave with no food, like a bear,for 4-5 months.Then yeah,you can eat honey as a reward. -d
Btw,I can tell those who eat honey are already salivating as they type their posts ;)
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Interesting post, Angeline, and it matches my own experience. Non-starchy veggies are the only plant foods I seem to handle well. KGH acknowledges that protein can be converted into carbs. His recommendation of 5% of calories as carbs is because of what Alphagruis has posted about--that such conversion is less efficient than eating carbs directly. How important that efficiency is, I don't know. What I do know is that it's hard to get carbs up to 5% of calories without eating some fruit, honey or cooked/dried tubers and so far I don't do well on those foods.
Phil:Just because nature put bees on the earth,it doesn't mean that honey is a good food for humans.Try living in a cave with no food, like a bear,for 4-5 months.Then yeah,you can eat honey as a reward. -d
Btw,I can tell those who eat honey are already salivating as they type their posts ;)
Perhaps you missed these parts of my post?...
"though I take everything into account"
"Plus, for me neither fat nor protein seemed to offset the negative effects of honey very much...."
I was only talking about the claims of some here, generally made without supporting evidence, that protein should be consumed with honey and that protein will ameliorate honey's negative effects much more effectively than will fat. Neither nature nor my own experience seem to support this idea that protein is much better to eat with honey than fat. As I mentioned, even fat doesn't seem to ameliorate honey's negative effects much for me, but fat is more linked in nature with honey than protein is--via the grubcomb in honey hives--so the argument is at least theoretically plausible (but still rather unconvincing for me) that fat would offset honey's negative effects, whereas I haven't seen anything supporting the protein argument. All I meant was that I would put more stock in nature on this question of eating protein vs. fat with honey than I would on other people's unsupported opinions here. Do you disagree with me on that?
I don't recall ever advocating eating honey and I've only reported negative experiences so far when I've tried it. I find my experience to contradict Aajonus' claims re: honey. I agree with your statement that just because something is on the earth doesn't mean we should eat it and I don't often eat honey, so I suspect that you misunderstood my post.
For those who advocate eating honey as some kind of a miracle health food, I wonder why it is that honey proponents rarely advocate eating bee grubs or other fatty insects? Could it be because people love the taste of honey and its culturally more acceptable and available than insects, and so folks make up health excuses to eat honey, rather than because honey really is all that healthful? Granted, there are some studies that have found health benefits to honey, but I wonder whether the benefits were largely due to the reduced intake of what the honey replaced in the diet--such as table sugar.
It's quite plausible that honey would be superior to table sugar, but whether it makes sense to add it to a largely carnivorous diet is another question. If it's the only carb source that someone can digest well and someone finds they do better when they include some carbs, or they wish to avoid killing off all their carb-digesting bacteria so that they can handle carbs better in social and convenience situations, then I could see those as reasons to eat it, but beyond that the case for raw honey still seems weak to me at this point as anything other than an occasional treat.
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Phil: "taking everything into account" is pretty vague/ambiguous.What's "everything"?It sounds like you're just trying to cover all the bases in case something slips by you.No offence.
If honey is not good,then why eat it as a "treat"?Might as well eat ice cream once in a while too ;) Or,if you want to talk about things strictly in nature,why not smoke a joint or eat a magic mushroom once in a while? -d
Let go of the honey buddy...let it go...let it go... ;D
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Phil: "taking everything into account" is pretty vague/ambiguous.What's "everything"?It sounds like you're just trying to cover all the bases in case something slips by you.No offence.
Sure, it's a bit of an exaggeration, but is there something wrong with covering all potentially reasonable bases? In other words, I'm not eliminating anything of potential value a priori and encouraging people to not assume that I am. I favor Socrates' approach of pleading ignorance about everything except my own ignorance.
Too often, vocal critics of RPD try to paint us into a corner as only considering certain limited evidence, such as merely trying to emulate Stone Agers, without taking biology, metabolism, chemistry, knowledge about other animal species, what our own bodies are telling us, etc., into account. In my case, this is a false assumption. I'm not a priori eliminating consideration of any of those sources of information. On the contrary, I consider them all and I actually put my own personal experience at the top, not emulation.
If honey is not good,then why eat it as a "treat"? Might as well eat ice cream once in a while too ;)
Firstly, I've found that I'm going to be damned no matter what I do. So I do what works for me and don't care much what others think--no offense intended.
Secondly, eating raw honey on occasion is still appealing to me, whereas ice cream is not any longer. Maybe that's in part due to the fact that honey gets mentioned so frequently on this forum. However, another interesting factor is that I was never a big fan of heated honey--it used to scratch my throat and not taste all that great--whereas raw honey tastes fantastic to me and doesn't scratch my throat nearly as much, especially the more raw among the raw honeys. Plus, I did actually try a couple ice cream sandwiches two or three years ago and experienced a bout of violent vomiting plus diarrhea at the same time that continued until everything emptied out. If that doesn't convince someone to avoid ice cream, or at least ice cream sandwiches, I can't imagine what would. ;D
Or,if you want to talk about things strictly in nature,why not smoke a joint or eat a magic mushroom once in a while? -d
I don't know if that's meant at all to be taken seriously, but just in case, I don't "want to talk about things strictly in nature", that's partly the point of why I go to the extent of saying I consider "everything"--to try to emphasize that I don't restrict my thinking so severely, which seems to be a common assumption made about RPDers, carnivores, low carbers, vegans and pretty much anyone who doesn't eat a SAD.
Let go of the honey buddy...let it go...let it go... ;D
;D Don't worry, I have mostly let it go. I don't think I've had any since my blood glucose testing of it, whenever that was.
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Useful posts King Salmon and Angeline. Sugar addiction is a wily old fox which can sneak up on even the most well intentioned! I mentioned some of the justifications earlier.
Valid experience Angeline. Thanks for sharing.
I think, perhaps, a little harsh to judge PaleoPhil as another addict however. My own understanding is that he's concerned with discovering the most viable means of raising carb intake to 5% of calories in line with the current thinking. Based on the science, it appears that the protein-to-glucose conversion efficiency rate is inadequate (perhaps even dangerous?) and the wise thoughts of KGH, alphagruis' and others on the subject, I think, need serious consideration.
My perspective is that the jury is still out on our dietary requirement for carbohydrate. I think this is a subject we all need to pull together on here as it's one of paramount importance. Perhaps we need to start a specific thread dedicated to this subject where personal bias' and egos can be left at the door and serious enquiring minds backed with relevant and up-to-date scientific studies can openly, rationally and objectively discuss the matter with the hope of discovering the truth based on current knowledge?
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Michael: I agree except for one thing.If adding 5% carbs is good,then why not add foods that are 5-6% carbs or less which also have a low insulin-spike?For myself,I use cucumbers for example.
Does honey fit into that profile?
Does this sound reasonable at all?I'm not claiming to be an expert.It just makes sense to me,that's all.
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Hi King Salmon,
I think the 5% carbs requirement refers to obtaining 5% of one's overall calories from carbs. If we're obtaining these carbs from foods containing only 5-6% carbs, then surely we're going to need to eat lorry-loads of them to attain the 5% overall figure? I believe this is the problem PaleoPhil is encountering and why he was interested in the possibility of foods such as raw honey. It doesn't seem viable to attain that figure from non-starchy vegetables. Alphagruis, I think, mentioned obtaining 50-100g carbs as a minimum. How many cucumbers would need to be eaten to obtain this volume?
You may have noticed that I raised the possibility to PaleoPhil in another thread, that blood could be considered a possibility for supplying the alleged required level of carbs. As he conjectured, there may very well exist in light of this the possibility that sufficient carbs could in fact be obtained from the animal kingdom and, indeed, it is our lack of consuming the whole animal which has raised this issue.
Likewise, I'm certainly no expert. A dedicated thread on this subject with input from alphagruis, Lex, PaleoPhil etc, I think, would prove highly useful.
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For PaleoPhil and anyone else who is aiming for very specific ratios of protein/fat/carb, there is a website - www.fitday.com (it's free) -which does the calculations for you as you enter in your daily diet plan (or whatever you ate whether you planned to our not). Liver has a little over 1 carb per ounce.
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Yes, I used Fitday to do my calculations and included liver, eggs and nonstarchy veg in it. Like Michael suggested, I would have to eat a lot of those foods and greatly cut back on my intake of raw meat and fat to get the carb % up to 5%, and I'm not interested in doing that. I think this may be one reason why KGH includes tubers, rice, half and half and some fruit in his diet--it's hard to eat like a carnivore AND get 5% or more of calories from carbs if you don't include cooked tubers, grains, fruit or honey, none of which agree well with my system. It was an interesting math experiment that is so far showing me that it's probably not very realistic for me to consider eating 5% or more of calories as carbs.
There's still one other possibility I recently learned about, but haven't tried and am skeptical about. Some traditional Africans and American raw food vegans/vegetarians apparently eat tubers that have been soaked and dried instead of cooked. My guess is I wouldn't handle those much better than I do cooked tubers and squashes, but I haven't tried any.
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Michael,yeah,I thought about that after I made my post.But,I had to leave and just left it as it was.
For me,I'll just stick to my RVLC.It's working great so far.Meat,seafood and plant foods 5-6% carbs or less is an easy WOE to keep track of, and I feel good.
The math in the "formula/WOE" you're talking about, sounds like a pain in the ass.Not to mention all the enzymatically incompatible foods you would most likely have to eat.
I get enough natural water/sodium/minerals/fats/protein..etc the body could ask for, without using a calculator.That's good enough for me.
Good luck with your experimentations fellow RPDers :)
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I must, King Salmon, that I'm not overly excited at the prospect of consciously raising carb levels either. I was quite happy with my meat, fat, eggs, fish and a few low-carb vegetables and herbs. Personally, I'm not convinced on the 5% carbs requirement given that it cannot, feasibly, be achieved without the items pointed out by PaleoPhil. I don't see how including tubers, fruit (modern high-sugar, hybridized varieties), honey etc could be necessary as they wouldn't have been eaten originally.
But, I am interested in the discussion following the seemingly informed opinions of alphagruis, KGH et al.
If it is deemed that we do in fact require 5% calories from carbs then, at this point in time, I think the idea that this should be obtained from animal products such as blood along with some of the low-carb vegetables/fruits would be more convincing.
PaleoPhil, re: my duplicate blood sugar tests - I managed to take a trip to obtain some local raw honeycomb yesterday and have been rummaging around the attic for my blood sugar monitor today. Unfortunately, I've been unable to locate it and I now suspect I disposed of it thinking I would have no further use for it! :) Given this discussion, perhaps it's becoming an increasingly pointless exercise anyway? Would you still be interested in my test results?
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Would you still be interested in my test results?
I'd be interested!
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I'd be interested!
OK. Thanks Haai. Anybody else?
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...But, I am interested in the discussion following the seemingly informed opinions of alphagruis, KGH et al.
Yeah, they're smarter than me, so I take their opinions seriously.
If it is deemed that we do in fact require 5% calories from carbs ...
And KGH appears to think that 8-10% carbs (about 50g) is more optimal than 5%, with 5% as the minimum.
then, at this point in time, I think the idea that this should be obtained from animal products such as blood along with some of the low-carb vegetables/fruits would be more convincing.
I checked into the carbs-from-blood idea, and only found one source. If this source is right, then blood doesn't appear to be a significant factor where carbs are concerned:
Lamb blood
per 100 grams
Total fat 0.4g (2.2%)
Total carb 0.1g (0.6%)
Protein 17.4g (97.2%)
Total macronutrients 17.9g
(From: http://www.fitbit.com/foods/Lamb+Blood/7287)
I'm interested in your BG results, but I wouldn't want you to get a BG meter just on our account. However, if anyone can eat raw honeycomb without spiking their BG, I would think that would be interesting to KGH and others who see honey as basically just another sugar. My BG spikes almost as much on raw honey as heated, though it is interesting that there's a small difference.
There are frequent offers in the USA giving away free blood glucose meters to Americans for anyone who fills out a survey. That's how I got mine. You don't have to be diabetic. If you can't be bothered with that, it sounds like the prices of the cheaper meters in the drugstores have come down quite a ways in the last few years.
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And KGH appears to think that 8-10% carbs (about 50g) is more optimal than 5%, with 5% as the minimum.
Thanks for informing me of that Phil. As you know, I've missed out on all this furore surrounding carbs which seems to have arisen during my absence from the forum. I'm not even sure where the 5% figure came from particularly as alphagruis was talking about 50-100g as a minimum. I really need to go away and do some research on this!
I checked into the carbs-from-blood idea, and only found one source. If this source is right, then blood doesn't appear to be a significant factor where carbs are concerned
Well done Phil. I'm tempted to say 'disappointing news' but, remaining impartial, this is merely another step closer to the truth. If I get a chance I'll do some searching myself just to further validate the results of your research.
I'm interested in your BG results... if anyone can eat raw honeycomb without spiking their BG, I would think that would be interesting to KGH and others who see honey as basically just another sugar. My BG spikes almost as much on raw honey as heated, though it is interesting that there's a small difference.
I would be incredibly shocked myself if it didn't spike my BG. I guess it's an experiment still worth conducting. Or, perhaps this is further evidence of my salivating for the raw honeycomb now sitting in my cupboard King Salmon?!? ;)
There are frequent offers in the USA giving away free blood glucose meters to Americans for anyone who fills out a survey. That's how I got mine. You don't have to be diabetic. If you can't be bothered with that, it sounds like the prices of the cheaper meters in the drugstores have come down quite a ways in the last few years.
Thanks for the thought. I'll look into this if they turn out to be rather expensive.
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I have no problem with getting carbs from animal carbs. Sometimes for fun I have a huge omelet where my carbs for the day are like 7 or 8 or 1% of my total. Carbs from eggs and organs in my opinion are different than carbs from inferior plant sources.
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Thanks for informing me of that Phil. As you know, I've missed out on all this furore surrounding carbs which seems to have arisen during my absence from the forum. I'm not even sure where the 5% figure came from particularly as alphagruis was talking about 50-100g as a minimum.
I mentioned it, I believe, based on KGH's minimum. I figured it would be more doable for me to try than his optimal ~10% figure. Using Fitday, it's surprising how difficult it is to reach even 5% without the Paleonu compromise foods like dairy, tubers, rice, berries or dark chocolate.
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Yeah, they're smarter than me, so I take their opinions seriously.
And KGH appears to think that 8-10% carbs (about 50g) is more optimal than 5%, with 5% as the minimum.
I checked into the carbs-from-blood idea, and only found one source. If this source is right, then blood doesn't appear to be a significant factor where carbs are concerned:
Lamb blood
per 100 grams
Total fat 0.4g (2.2%)
Total carb 0.1g (0.6%)
Protein 17.4g (97.2%)
Total macronutrients 17.9g
(From: http://www.fitbit.com/foods/Lamb+Blood/7287)
Is that fresh blood? I don't know where this was from, but I remember someone saying that from the moment an animal is killed, the carbs begin to disappear rapidly..?
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Animal blood...wow that reminds me.When I was a kid my father told me about a doctor who recommended to a patient to go to the "abattoir"(slaughterhouse for those who don't speak French ;)) every day for a certain time period(don't remember how many weeks or months-too long ago)and drink a full fresh glass of blood as soon the animal was killed.The patient received great benefits from that.
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I can't imagine it would be fresh blood, but that's all I could find. Besides, from a practical standpoint, unfresh blood all one is likely to get.
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So, perhaps blood is a part of the answer if one was trying to determine a viable source of paleo carbs. Unfortunately, as PaleoPhil mentions, it's highly unlikely that fresh blood is going to be available within the context of modern lifestyles. Of course, it's likely that the benefits of the patient described by King Salmon were not even related to the carbohydrate content of the blood.
miles, where is it that the carbs in fresh blood disappear to exactly?! Is that scientifically possible? I'm well aware that vitamins are 'lost' from the moment fruit/veg is picked but carbohydrate surely isn't so susceptible to the fickle winds of oxygen etc? As far as I'm aware the carbs in rice, wheat, honey etc are not 'lost' when sitting in the cupboard? The sugar in a banana may turn to starch but it's still carbohydrate.
Any further evidence of this phenomenon would be most enlightening.
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My take on raw honey is that it really varies from one person to another and from one time to another. For nearly a year we went through 1/2 gallon in a month approximately - for 2 of us. This is what the local honey producers call "Aajonus grade" honey - completely unheated, not smoked etc.
For the last 4 months or so, my wife has greatly diminished the amount of raw honey she uses in smoothies and milkshakes. Her circumstance is that she is recovering from advanced spinal cancer by natural means using the Primal Diet books with some special emphasis such as making her own raw cottage cheese then having that with raw unheated flax oil (following the lead of Johanna Budwig, for those of you who have read up on cancer literature) and a small amount of kiwi fruit or organic pineapple or organic berries. She seems more calm with less raw honey. My observation from this is simply that if you pay attention to what your body is telling you, you can guide yourself within the guidelines of the Primal Diet.
Aajonus does clarify in his recipe book the vast difference between cooked honey - to be avoided - and raw honey.
Note: she also increased the size of her meat meals which could be contributing to the calmness.
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Fructose and perhaps fructose-heavy foods like honey and fruit may not be the best thing in the world for someone fighting cancer:
Cancer cells slurp up fructose, U.S. study finds
WASHINGTON | Mon Aug 2, 2010 5:22pm EDT
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6714ZH20100802
And here's the abstract: http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/early/2010/07/16/0008-5472.CAN-09-4615.abstract
Have you checked out the Warburg hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_hypothesis)?
I'm not surprised that your wife seems more calm since she cut down on honey. I got calmer myself when I cut down on plant carbs.
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Wild Honey Gathering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFZuTwiekaQ
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I don't like how the narrator talks about them towards the end of that video.
About the lamb's blood: I have some NZ Lamb's Liver and the nutrition table says it has trace carbohydrates, it tastes really nice, it tastes sweet. I have some Ox Liver, it says it has 8g carbs/100g and I didn't like the taste...
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Superb video Sully! Thanks for posting it. I enjoyed the other parts on You Tube too. It's a shame the subtitles are partially hidden by the title throughout.
What did you think about the health of this tribe in as far as we can judge by their appearance at least? They don't appear to be a picture of health to me but then they're doing the best they can under the difficult circumstances they face. Their diet, it seems, is not ideal but I wonder what the impact of all this, abeit raw, honey is on their overall physical & mental health?
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Well, I think in the video they say they refuse to hunt large animals for conservation or something. Which is a shame if that is true. I am sure they also eat some cooked starchy carbs (either from grains or tubers). Which is not ideal.
I myself would eat the honey like it is. Bite rite through it. I don't mind the wax. Maybe it serves a purpose to the digestion of the honey. Similar to an apple and its skin maybe.
They might cook or process the honey besides eating it raw (which is why they are probably squeezing it out of the comb). Some tribes make a wine from honey which includes heating it I think. They also might use it as a flavor enhancer to other foods, which in the process might include heating it.
So, I think wild raw honey could be beneficial. Wild honey may also have a much stronger flavor than domesticated honey, and perhaps have a quicker stop eating signal for our bodies, because of the stronger flavor and it being higher in nutrients.
I go by this....... Anything wild, undomesticated, and edible raw is good.
BTW, to me eating honey with the comb is ideal, it is funner to eat like that too.
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Sully,you should write a book,and call it "Omnivore's Delight" ;D
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Sully,you should write a book,and call it "Omnivore's Delight" ;D
Hah thanks, but I think i would call it Raw Wild Foods ;) I am messing around with my website if you haven't seen it (free website made through weebly). It's for raw wild foods. www.wildfoods.weebly.com
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Nice website Sully! I look forward to seeing it develop. Must say, you're looking good too man! (said in a purely heterosexual respectful way of course!) ;D
BTW, I noticed someone comment somewhere on your thumb luna elsewhere. I just noticed it was far worse on some of those older pics (particularly the one where you're crushing the walnuts) which is perhaps an indication of your continuing health improvement?
Interesting thoughts on raw honey. There seems to be gathering evidence against it but I can certainly understand your philosophy that anything wild, undomesticated and edible raw is good. Our paleo ancestors certainly wouldn't have been as obsessed as his modern counterpart with dietary and biological analysis. He would've eaten what he could which he found provided him with energy and long-term health. Honey may have been a part of this and it's perhaps the rare finding and minimal quantities it would've been consumed in that makes a difference. Of course, his general health and constitution would've been undamaged relative to our own too which makes it difficult to ever make valid comparisons.
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Nice website Sully! I look forward to seeing it develop. Must say, you're looking good too man! (said in a purely heterosexual respectful way of course!) ;D
BTW, I noticed someone comment somewhere on your thumb luna elsewhere. I just noticed it was far worse on some of those older pics (particularly the one where you're crushing the walnuts) which is perhaps an indication of your continuing health improvement?
Interesting thoughts on raw honey. There seems to be gathering evidence against it but I can certainly understand your philosophy that anything wild, undomesticated and edible raw is good. Our paleo ancestors certainly wouldn't have been as obsessed as his modern counterpart with dietary and biological analysis. He would've eaten what he could which he found provided him with energy and long-term health. Honey may have been a part of this and it's perhaps the rare finding and minimal quantities it would've been consumed in that makes a difference. Of course, his general health and constitution would've been undamaged relative to our own too which makes it difficult to ever make valid comparisons.
THanks. A comment on my picture,...hmmmm yeah probably saying I was too skinny. Although I looked skinny, I was actually extremly fit, had lots of energy too. I way about 150 now. Then I was 130 maybe.(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r85/Junts2005/Hunting-Gathering/DSCN0071-1.jpg)
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r85/Junts2005/Hunting-Gathering/DSCN4039.jpg)
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r85/Junts2005/Hunting-Gathering/DSCN4032.jpg)
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r85/Junts2005/Hunting-Gathering/8-26-084.jpg)
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ALTHOUGH, IN A FIGHT, I WOULD PROB MURDER MY OLD SELF, WELL, MAYBE NOT, IT WOULD BE A STRUGGLE LOL
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r85/Junts2005/Hunting-Gathering/DSCN5226.jpg)
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Yes, looking much 'tougher' in the latest 'rabbit' (or was it squirrel?!) picture!
I think you'd wipe the floor with that skinny, young guy in the first photo! ;) I'm sure our lovely paleo ladies are enjoying your pictures! :)
Hope you enjoyed your birthday Sully!
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Yes, looking much 'tougher' in the latest 'rabbit' (or was it squirrel?!) picture!
I think you'd wipe the floor with that skinny, young guy in the first photo! ;) I'm sure our lovely paleo ladies are enjoying your pictures! :)
Hope you enjoyed your birthday Sully!
Yep its a rabbit! :)
Wipe the floor, hmm, I don't think so. It would be extremely tough. I could lose, I wrestled people bigger than I was when I was skinny and dominated them. Even when I was a cooked vegan I would be tough to beat my former self because of training. If I didn't know martial arts, the story may be different though. I can't lie though, me vs myself fresh in those old pics, I would def. have the advantage now (but I could still lose).
If the girls like it, hey let me know! :) I am not into the girlfriend-boyfriend thing ladies, if we meet and I like you, you like me, you eat raw animal foods and you want to live on farm eventually, we marry. Simple as that, well it wouldn't be rushed like that, but you know what I am saying. ;)
Edit: oh yes, thanks, didn't do anything special for my birthday, just relaxing
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It would be an engaging contest - increased wisdom, experience and size against fearless youth and energy. Although, I'm sure you still have those things now anyway!
Remind me - what martial arts is it you're trained in Sully? Do you still practice?
I've tinkered with various over the years such as boxing and ju jitsu but have never really found one which clicked. I recently tried Aikido and am attracted to the philosophies of it so may start getting into this.
The problem has always been that I'm more into non-violent communication than violent. I can be physically aggressive if attacked but even when I've been threatened by gangs in the past when foolishly walking through City parks alone late at night I've chosen to use my far superior negotiation and amiable non-violent communication skills. In my experience, perhaps 95 out of 100 such confrontations can be resolved through diplomacy rather than aggression. Without resorting to apologetic inferiority, I've found that the power of showing understanding through the channel of verbal communication based upon a definite foundation of mysterious fearlessness, great things can be achieved.
Having said that, and particularly now that I have a family to protect, I do sometimes feel vulnerable and would like to dedicate myself to a capable defensive art for those 5 out of 100 occasions when diplomacy's limits are breached. Aikido appears to be based on philosophies of causing no harm to one's opponents through effective use of and control of energies. This seems to focus on gaining control of and manipulating one's opponent's centre of gravity. The blind master I trained with a few times was like some kind of Jedi! :)
I am not into the girlfriend-boyfriend thing ladies, if we meet and I like you, you like me, you eat raw animal foods and you want to live on farm eventually, we marry. Simple as that
How could they resist?! ;) Seriously, I know what you mean. Perhaps that's a part of the simplicity and critical prioritisation that's missing in many modern relationships?
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Seriously gone off-topic now!! :) Did you want to move this elsewhere Tyler?
Apologies to all if I seem to be rambling on in various threads completely off-topic!
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Seriously gone off-topic now!! :) Did you want to move this elsewhere Tyler?
Apologies to all if I seem to be rambling on in various threads completely off-topic!
Haha yeah, i will send you a pm, check out my videos in the exercise gallery too.
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The problem has always been that I'm more into non-violent communication than violent. I can be physically aggressive if attacked but even when I've been threatened by gangs in the past when foolishly walking through City parks alone late at night I've chosen to use my far superior negotiation and amiable non-violent communication skills. In my experience, perhaps 95 out of 100 such confrontations can be resolved through diplomacy rather than aggression. Without resorting to apologetic inferiority, I've found that the power of showing understanding through the channel of verbal communication based upon a definite foundation of mysterious fearlessness, great things can be achieved.
I totally agree. Have you read Marshall Rosenberg's "Nonviolent Communication"? Such a brilliant, brilliant book!
Having said that, and particularly now that I have a family to protect, I do sometimes feel vulnerable and would like to dedicate myself to a capable defensive art for those 5 out of 100 occasions when diplomacy's limits are breached. Aikido appears to be based on philosophies of causing no harm to one's opponents through effective use of and control of energies. This seems to focus on gaining control of and manipulating one's opponent's centre of gravity. The blind master I trained with a few times was like some kind of Jedi! :)
Aikido would be at the top of my list... The style/philosophy seems to suit my nature and I find aikido so graceful, like dancing.
How could they resist?! ;) Seriously, I know what you mean. Perhaps that's a part of the simplicity and critical prioritisation that's missing in many modern relationships?
<sigh> I think it would benefit me to be more simple.
Oh - to be topical - what is my view on raw honey? I think a bit of raw honey is yummy if one is craving it - especially helpful in getting off refined sugar. Raw honey can add some variety to one's diet (I used to enjoy a snack of raw tahini spread on a lightly toasted sprouted grain tortilla that I would tear off and dip into just a touch of honey). I have some raw organic manuka honey that I take internally sometimes (stirring a bit in a mug of water with a splash of raw organic ACV) and use externally on the skin.
My mom had a large, severe skin infection on the inside of her forearm. I took her to one of our chiros and while he doesn't prescribe antibiotics, he muscle-tested that it was really serious and required antibiotics. He also said applying raw manuka honey on it would help. My mom believes the honey stopped the infection from spreading (it had been getting bigger and awful-er), helped heal it, and helped clear the skin. I think raw honey (especially manuka honey for external application) is very useful in healing - used sparingly as a healing substance, not as something to consume tubs of.
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Thanks for book link Cinna! I haven't read Rosenberg's work but will add it to the list. You're keeping me busy! :) My own thoughts on non-violent communication, as always, has really just stemmed from my own experiences, work, observations and reflections. I do have various books on buddhism, taoism, Gandhi etc but, like many of my vast library of books, have only found the time to dip in and out of them. I live in hope that the wealth of knowledge at my fingertips will somehow diffuse into my spirit without the need to physically read the information! ;)
Aikido is beautifully graceful isn't it. I agree that to the spectator, perhaps even the practitioner at times, it is like dancing. I've heard stories of the creator of the art, Morihei Ueshiba, reducing his aggressors to tears by physically nullifying their attacks whilst whispering in their ear a form of psychological counseling. I guess that refers back to something you mentioned previously about other's anger and hatred being merely a consequence of their own insecurities and fears. Now that's non-violent, non-harmful self-defence. It can actually be beneficial to the welfare and personal growth of the attacker!
Interesting to hear of your mum's experiences with utilising honey's healing properties. I've used it in the past for various external issues myself and for others by using it alone or as a basis for homemade creams. As you said, manuka seems to be the best for this and, I understand, is even certified for medical application in Australia and New Zealand. My own investigations into various manuka honey's I've found here have unfortunately shown that it has been heated in production. Any commercially produced honey is almost certainly going to have been heated beyond ideal temperatures. Perhaps for external application this isn't relevant although I would expect a portion of the healing properties to be due to the heat-sensitive enzymes. I would certainly love to have access to truly raw manuka honey!
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Cinna,
Honey is an interesting sweetener according to Ayurveda. It is OK for people with weight issues (up to a point) It has a heating effect and so when you eat it it has the effect of warming and thus improving digestion and since that in itself will cause foods that are not digesting well to improve their digestibility it has a neutral effect.
Having said that I am not suggesting binging on it :D
For some people with excellent digestion it may be overkill and cause the digestion to be too hot and cause burning issues. When I was eating cooked food I could not handle honey. It was too hot. Now I have no problem with it.
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Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic raw-al from my off-topic ramblings! :)
Do you eat much raw honey now yourself? If so, what kind of quantity, frequency etc and do you notice any positive/negative consequences?
You seem very knowledgeable about Ayurveda as I've noticed you mention it elsewhere too. This is something I know little about, if I'm honest, but have always been drawn to and interested in. What are your experiences in Ayurveda?
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Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic raw-al from my off-topic ramblings! :)
Do you eat much raw honey now yourself? If so, what kind of quantity, frequency etc and do you notice any positive/negative consequences?
You seem very knowledgeable about Ayurveda as I've noticed you mention it elsewhere too. This is something I know little about, if I'm honest, but have always been drawn to and interested in. What are your experiences in Ayurveda?
The following is excerpts from "Ayurveda The Science Of Self Healing" by Dr Vasant Lad. Page 137 of my dog-eared copy...
"honey creates heat so it aggravates Pitta and pacifies Vata and Kapha. It's tastes are sweet and astringent. It is good for healing internal and external ulcers. Like Ghee, honey carries the medicinal properties of herbs to the bodily tissues and is therefore, used as a medium for many substances. Honey is an excellent blood purifier and is also good for the eyes and teeth. It alleviates cold,cough and congestion. When used to dress an external wound, it will help the healing process. Honey and water together energize the body and help to flush the kidneys. If taken in moderation, it reduces fat. Honey should not be cooked because cooking alters it's attributes and makes it incompatible with the body. Heated honey can clog the digestive tract and create toxins."
Since reading AV's books, I have started eating raw honey and raw butter not ghee.
Ayurveda says that you should never eat equal amounts of honey and ghee. Ghee is clarified (heated) butter but I treat raw butter as if it were ghee. However the texts also say that if you double the amount of each one, meaning twice as much of one as the other it is very good. Twice as much honey brings nutrients to the brain and twice as much butter brings nutrients to somewhere... ;D I have forgotten and do not wish to guess but were I so inclined I would say to the muscles ;D , but it's good whatever it was. It certainly wasn't good for memory. LOL
When I ate cooked foods I wasn't able to eat a lot of honey. Probably the fact that it wasn't raw unheated honey was a factor as before reading AV books I had no idea you could get unheated. I knew about pasteurized honey.
Since I started the diet (December 2009) I eat lots of butter/honey and it is great for my vata issues. Vata issues to me concern uneven digestion and elimination. Since learning about Ayurveda I now realize that my dad had serious vata issues ie constipation and I was headed that way also. This will tend to bring on issues with depression etc.. I have always loved butter/ghee and now I love raw butter and honey.
Not sure of the amount of honey butter I eat but it varies. If I eat a lot it is a good thing with my elimination issues. I tend to vary my menu daily anyways.
I learned about Ayurveda 24 years ago and have been mildly obsessed. There are lots of books and I had lots of friends who were so inclined and eventually I met a Vaidya who I ended up taking a practitioner course from mainly for informational reasons. Have meant to write a book on the subject but fear holds me back.
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Have meant to write a book on the subject but fear holds me back.
Please do write your book, Al. Many Ayurvedic books seem to exclude most animal products and I love to hear your RPD-Ayurvedic perspective - it is totally unique.
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Thanks for book link Cinna! I haven't read Rosenberg's work but will add it to the list. You're keeping me busy! :) My own thoughts on non-violent communication, as always, has really just stemmed from my own experiences, work, observations and reflections. I do have various books on buddhism, taoism, Gandhi etc but, like many of my vast library of books, have only found the time to dip in and out of them. I live in hope that the wealth of knowledge at my fingertips will somehow diffuse into my spirit without the need to physically read the information! ;)
Oh my goodness, you don't have to read the book at all - from what you had written, I really thought that you had read the book. My favorite parts of NVC are being in control of yourself and how you respond to someone (not letting your feelings/behavior be manipulated, even if one is being hostile/critical/judgmental, etc. towards you); truly connecting with someone and his/her needs; and especially, not having to necessarily apologize or be sorry. We can "hear someone out," but not feel guilt/shame regardless of their feelings/judgments about us. That last concept was pretty revolutionary to me.
I found a few Marshall Rosenberg quotes online:
"Everything we do is in service of our needs. When this one concept is applied to our view of others, we'll see that we have no real enemies, that what others do to us is the best possible thing they know to do to get their needs met."
"I'm interested in learning that's motivated by reverence for life, that's motivated by a desire to learn skills, to learn new things that help us to better contribute to our own well-being and the well-being of others. And what fills me with great sadness is any learning that I see motivated by coercion."
"Every criticism, judgment, diagnosis, and expression of anger is the tragic expression of an unmet need."
"All violence is the result of people tricking themselves into believing that their pain derives from other people and that consequently those people deserve to be punished."
"We only feel dehumanized when we get trapped in the derogatory images of other people or thoughts of wrongness about ourselves. As author and mythologist Joseph Campbell suggested, "'What will they think of me?' must be put aside for bliss." We begin to feel this bliss when messages previously experienced as critical or blaming begin to be seen for the gifts they are: opportunities to give to people who are in pain."
"Analyses of others are actually expressions of our own needs and values."
These quotes don't do justice to the book - it truly is brilliant. I recommend the book to those who have to deal with difficult people and are interested in dealing with them in a highly compassionate way. :D It's a bit of a practice, a discipline, an art.
I find all the information available in the world overwhelming. I can only dip in and out of books as well... I don't think you need to physically read much information. I think I mentioned to you before, you access infinite wisdom just great.
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Thanks for the book tip, raw-al, and for sharing some of your thoughts on Ayurveda. I've perhaps all too easily dismissed the suggestions of some of my friend's in the past with their approaches indoctrinated in schools of ayurveda, buddhism, kinesiology, energy medicine etc. I do recognise that my sometimes fixed opinions based on modern sciences are not infallible. I try to keep an open but rational mind at all times and don't like to exclude any school of thought in reaching my own conclusions so will most certainly read into this fascinating subject.
Oh my goodness, you don't have to read the book at all - from what you had written, I really thought that you had read the book. My favorite parts of NVC are being in control of yourself and how you respond to someone (not letting your feelings/behavior be manipulated, even if one is being hostile/critical/judgmental, etc. towards you); truly connecting with someone and his/her needs; and especially, not having to necessarily apologize or be sorry. We can "hear someone out," but not feel guilt/shame regardless of their feelings/judgments about us. That last concept was pretty revolutionary to me.
Really?! Thanks Cinna. Actually, from your comments on your favourite ideas from the book, I could see how you may've been given this impression as your examples are ideas central to my own approach. I guess I'm fortunate that this is simply my own natural way for which I take no credit but, perhaps, should be grateful for my parents guidance and upbringing.
Rosenburg's book is actually now sitting in my Amazon basket along with his other work Raising Children Compassionately. Thanks so much for the recommendation! 8)
I don't think you need to physically read much information. I think I mentioned to you before, you access infinite wisdom just great.
Thanks again! I need to remain conscious of any potentially negative inflationary ego consequences from your kind words! :) I think you allude to an important point there in that there is an infinite wisdom available to all and, I agree, that it's not actually necessary to physically overload on read information. From Dr Alexander Leaf's famous 1973 study, I recall the wise words of some members of a particular long-living traditional culture suggesting that the cause of Western man's ubiquitous maladies can be honed down to an excessive appetite for reading!
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Thought I would toss this in about raw honey. (Someone was talking about sugar issues.)
Cinnamon is actually quite good for people with sugar issues. I couldn't explain it but it will help metabolize it. Since starting the raw diet I find that honey is quite good with the butter at probably 1 part honey to 3 parts butter. When I first started I was eating a lot more honey/butter but like everyone else I have toned down quite a bit. I still like it because it helps me with elimination, a family tradition.
Cinnamon has been checked out in scientific studies for this reason and I am sure that a quick Google will verify the details.
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you know what guys, i don't think raw wild honey is worth the trouble, check out this pic and video of bear grylls getting a bee sting, haha, i am kidding of course, but it's a nice vid, i think he was allergic,
credit to miles, for sharing it with me
i couldn't stop laughing when i first saw the pic
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_zG660dzV_rs/SSPU3U3DzZI/AAAAAAAADVs/Ayvr8MmOLu0/IMG00148.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-aOqb0Wmmk&feature=related
the honey looks good though, quite different than honey comb i see in the store, quite a price to pay for honey though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CASoKaayOqA
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You peeps who eat raw honey. How much of it do you eat, do you get problems if you eat much and do you notice a big difference if you've eaten it in the comb?
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I can only stand raw honeycomb. Raw, liquid honey from jars is , I suspect, always heated to some extent, as I always get reactions therefrom , but not from raw honeycomb.
As long as I only eat 6-8 ounces at a time, once a week, on a seasonal basis, I have no issues with raw honeycomb. Were I to consume much more, I would have issues.
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My youngest daughter was stung as a baby and she puffed up all over her body. It was quite disconcerting and we got her off to the hospital where they have her a shot of adrenaline. Apparently she could have died as her throat might have puffed up and choked her. She had to carry an epi-pen after that in case she go stung again. Supposedly it can be cumulative in that the second and succeeding times it gets worse. However it supposedly may also be something you grow out of.
Raw honey or comb is a bit too strong for me to eat straight. However when mixed with butter and or cream or milk or coconut it is manna from heaven. I prefer 1 part honey to 2 or 3 parts butter. The honey acts as a digestive for the butter.
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I was stung in the ear and eye and hand before. I got a black eye and dumbo ears. No severe swelling as to a alllergic reaction.
Miles,
I prefer raw honey comb over in jars. As Tyler said it might have been heated to some degree. Honey comb taste better to me too. The wax turns to kind of a gum, and it seems to take out the honey from the crevasses in my teeth as I chew it.
besides that, i just prefer honey comb, just funner to eat.
the honey bear grylls ate seemed much different than honey comb in the stores (lighter, less honey) wild honey is prob better, more nutrients etc(prob less sugar and a stronger taste too, which would make it harder to over eat on), but it may come at a cost>bear grylls face
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From wiki:
Honey has a long history of human consumption and is used in various foods and beverages as a sweetener and flavoring. It also has a role in religion and symbolism. Flavors of honey vary based on the nectar source, and various types and grades of honey are available. It is also used in various medicinal traditions to treat ailments. The study of pollens and spores in raw honey (melissopalynology) can determine floral sources of honey.[5] Because bees carry an electrostatic charge, and can attract other particles, the same techniques of melissopalynology can be used in area environmental studies of radioactive particles, dust, or particulate pollution.[6][7]
I feel the same way about it as Daniel Vitalis. I don't think raw is a benefit regarding honey in a world this poluted.
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It's really surprising how Aajonus and few others here can eat generous amounts of honey and butter without gaining any. I started to gain immediately after mixing these two.
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Aajonus eats raw honey with butter. I tried that and it makes sense.
I also add raw honey with extra virgin olive oil and use that as a dip for cucumbers. Good snack.
Raw honey is also useful for scrapes and cuts.
This is why I joined this forum! I'm going to try that as a snack and see how I like it. Also, I've never heard of raw honey for scrapes and cuts. Does it help healing faster or stop infections, or both?
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You peeps who eat raw honey. How much of it do you eat, do you get problems if you eat much and do you notice a big difference if you've eaten it in the comb?
I usually abstain from honey and most carbs these days miles. But, I have indulged in a little raw honeycomb again recently and am pleased to say that it didn't cause me any noticeable negative effects. I did only consume quantities that would be considered small by any Primal dieters - maybe half the carton over a period of a week? When I used to consume jarred raw honey I would certainly experience sugar highs/lows with even small amounts.
The trouble with this is that it makes it tempting to repeat the 'experiment'! ;)
Also, I've never heard of raw honey for scrapes and cuts. Does it help healing faster or stop infections, or both?
I thought EVERYBODY knew this now Marissa?! How did you manage to miss such mainstream information?! ;) It's alleged to prevent/overcome infections and increase the efficacy of healing as far as I recall. I believe that as far back as the Egyptian period, honey was utilised as a preservative in mummification too.
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My problem with the honey is that I can hardly ever eat only small amount of it. Either I do not eat it at all or I eat quite a lot of it.
Recently I eat it very rarely and this way it's less probable that I would indulge in it. It works.
I eat primarily honeycomb, but I don't see any difference re addictiveness in comparison with liquid honey.
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That does seem to be a general problem with honey and most high-carb foods in my experience Hannibal. There always seems to be the danger of a 'slippery slope'! :) This latest occasion that I enjoyed a little honeycomb with cheese on my birthday was quite significant in that I was able to only consume a little of it (relatively) and didn't have subsequent cravings.
Ordinarily, I've always had issues as you described which has been a lifelong problem. I could never eat a single biscuit - it had to be the whole packet! Never a bowl of ice-cream - had to be the entire tub! :) Phew, glad those days are years behind me. Candida, disrupted hormone issues etc can be an awful way to eat and live!
If you believe in the theory at all - do you have a history of suffering systemic candida?
Interesting that you've noticed no significant difference with the addictive tendancies of liquid honey and honeycomb. I suppose we could draw various conclusions from this. Perhaps the liquid honey I source is not raw, perhaps your honeycomb is not raw, perhaps there's some other marked difference between the two that I source and your own (unfiltered liquid honey, sugar syrup fed bees etc). Perhaps, even, there has been a recent biological improvement in my own physiology which could now mean that liquid honey, also, would not effect me as it usually has done. I'm actually still very interested in buying a blood sugar monitor to put such theories to the test as I previously discussed with PaleoPhil. That may help to answer some of these questions.
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I tried a truly raw honeycomb--as raw as you can get. They have the bees make the honeycomb right in the package, so that it doesn't have to be heated or smoked or even moved in the slightest. It was still addictive and it still spiked my BG. Interestingly, it spiked it less than jarred, centrifuged raw honey, but not much less.
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Thanks for sharing the results of that particular experiment Phil. Very interesting! I must buy a blood sugar monitor and start running some of my own tests!
Your source of raw honeycomb sounds absolutely amazing! I've never heard of anything like that before. What a shame you can't enjoy a little from time to time.
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Heh, heh. I still do occasionally eat raw honey anyway. It is addictive, though, so I only buy small amounts at a time so I won't eat too much, and I try to limit the # of times I buy it. If it starts to become a problem for me, I'll stop buying it altogether.
I have been doing more research on BG spikes and insulin resistance, though, given my issues. If I recall correctly, Dr. Davis thinks that any spikes over a certain level are unhealthy, but Dr. Harris seems to think that occasional spikes are OK as long as your BG drops back down again within 2 hours, which is what my guess was too, but I need to do more reading and testing on this, because I don't remember all the specifics and most of my tests have not shown proper return to baseline BG after 2 hours, which is discouraging.
However, I did a test today on some juice that my carb-pushing mother gave me (and my best friend also pushes me to eat carbs, and then there are the carb advocates here who go on and on about delicious fruits and honey and some even criticize VLC/ZC and VLCers/ZCers, so it's quite a bit of nagging and temptation to deal with--so far my willpower has held up pretty well) and my BG did drop back down after 2 hours, so that may be a good sign, or it may be because I only drank 1 glass of juice. One test is also of course not enough to go on.
One interesting change is that my fasting blood glucose was higher on the last few tests. It was 100 or more, like Lex's. This may be the same adjustment phenomena as happened to Lex after he had been on a ZC diet for a while. Strangely, despite these higher fasting BG measurements, lately I haven't been reacting quite as badly to carbs as I did back when I was eating plenty of them. I still do react negatively, though, so this may not amount to much of anything.
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perhaps your honeycomb is not raw
It's definitely raw. I get it directly from one beekeeper.
Something like that - http://www.pacificcrestapiaries.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/waxcappings.jpg
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It's definitely raw. I get it directly from one beekeeper.
Something like that - http://www.pacificcrestapiaries.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/waxcappings.jpg
I shouldn't really be surprised, Hannibal, that, like your meats, you have access to the most incredible looking honeycomb! :) We can discount the possibility of poor quality honeycomb from the equation then. Have you done any experimentation with blood sugar monitoring in a manner similar to PaleoPhil?
Heh, heh. I still do occasionally eat raw honey anyway. It is addictive, though, so I only buy small amounts at a time so I won't eat too much, and I try to limit the # of times I buy it. If it starts to become a problem for me, I'll stop buying it altogether.
It sounds like a class C drug! :) Not too far from the truth perhaps?!
If I recall correctly, Dr. Davis thinks that any spikes over a certain level are unhealthy
Yes, that's what I recall too. I certainly need to read up on these opinions more fully and take careful note of specific levels and timescales before I conduct any testing myself.
I think the testing you're doing is generating some extremely valuable information for yourself and the general forum knowledge base.
I'm surprised the juice had a less dramatic effect on your BG 2hr post test levels. I wouldn't of expected this which, in itself, highlights the usefulness of the testing. It's also interesting that you've observed an improved BG reaction since eating VLC/ZC for a period of time and that your fasting BG levels have increased. Perhaps these are indications of improved insulin resistance and a sign that the body has already made progress with healing. Of course, at this point, it wouldn't take long to entirely reverse any gains made by a recurrence of carb over-consumption.
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I'm surprised the juice had a less dramatic effect on your BG 2hr post test levels. I wouldn't of expected this which, in itself, highlights the usefulness of the testing. It's also interesting that you've observed an improved BG reaction since eating VLC/ZC for a period of time and that your fasting BG levels have increased. Perhaps these are indications of improved insulin resistance and a sign that the body has already made progress with healing.
I was surprised by the juice results too. Despite the good BG response, I did get some of the usual symptoms from it the next morning. Maybe fructose is more of a problem for me than BG spikes from glucose. It's early to tell yet, whether that one test means anything.
Of course, at this point, it wouldn't take long to entirely reverse any gains made by a recurrence of carb over-consumption.
I think you're right.
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Phil, interesting experiment. I am using little amounts of honey myself, to sweeten up life a bit, although I think a couple of table spoons on empty stomach is a bit too much, no wonder it threw your BG out of balance (I wouldn't be able to eat it anyway, too sweat and stingy)
I try not to start my day with honey, eating food high in fat and protein instead.
During the day I eat honey three times (not in one go), 1 tea spoon each, mixed with quarter cup of sour cream, cocoa powder and nuts.
So I consume 1 table spoon of honey per day, tried to get rid of it completely, but life became too sad :)
I wonder how BG behaves during such consumption, didn't do any tests but seems everything is allright.
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I wonder how BG behaves during such consumption, didn't do any tests but seems everything is allright.
1 teaspoon of honey with a bunch of fat.. there's really no need to be that paranoid about the BG :)
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1 teaspoon of honey with a bunch of fat.. there's really no need to be that paranoid about the BG :)
Yeah, after a while trying low carb I noticed that honey is EXTREMELY sweet, really no need to use more.
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Phil, interesting experiment. I am using little amounts of honey myself, to sweeten up life a bit, although I think a couple of table spoons on empty stomach is a bit too much, no wonder it threw your BG out of balance
I've seen videos of reportedly healthy hunter-gatherers and traditional peoples consuming enormous quantities of honey/comb or mead in a single sitting, so I suspect that truly healthy folk don't experience the same sort of BG spikes and negative effects that many metabolically deranged moderners do--or maybe their bodies have other unknown mechanisms that prevent harm from BG spikes. Unfortunately, there's no profit in studying this, so it likely will never be thoroughly investigated.
(I wouldn't be able to eat it anyway, too sweat and stingy)
Heated honey, and even some unfermented raw honey, makes my throat sting and itch, but raw fermented honey never does, in any quantity. You might want to try other honeys, such as Really Raw fermented honey, before you assume that all give you sweating and stinging--though I can't promise you any benefits either and too much of even RF honey does have some other negative effects on me.
[quote[During the day I eat honey three times (not in one go)[/quote]I rarely consume honey more than once a day, and many days I eat none. However, some days I do eat more than 2 tbsps. I seem to handle up to about 2 tbsps without big BG spikes, though sometimes I consume more and don't get a spike and other times I consume less and do. It probably depends in part on what else I eat, and I've found that the same BG monitor can produce significantly different results on the same drop of blood (on 2 different test strips), so I tend to look more at the longer-run picture than focus on single results, though I do try to avoid BG spikes above 140-160, based on what multiple sources suggest.
When I eat more RF honey, I notice that my hair and scalp benefit, but if I eat it too many days in a row, I notice that some of my teeth start to loosen, so it's a balancing act. Oddly enough, I don't seem to get acne outbreaks from RF honey or wild Maine blueberries like I do from certain other fruits. Nature is incredibly complex.
Despite still eating rather LC many days, I never find RF honey to be too sweet, unlike heated honey and even some (unfermented) raw honeys. Even when I first tried RF honey while I was VERY LC, I didn't find it too sweet, whereas some other honeys, sweet heated wines, and other foods do taste too sweet to me. I can remember even before I went Paleo when a friend made a Kool-Aid-type drink for me, and I gagged. To me it tasted like Kool-Aid powder with a touch of water added, but to her it was perfect.
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Fermented honey is an interesting idea. I suppose it is not so sweet because sugars in it are predigested by bacteria?
I actually don't mind honey to be very sweet as it allows me to use lesser amounts to sweeten up sour cream dessert.
Seems like this need is purely psychological, just need something to have with big mug of hot tea.
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Yes, bacteria and yeast.
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I've seen videos of reportedly healthy hunter-gatherers and traditional peoples consuming enormous quantities of honey/comb or mead in a single sitting
what do you consider to be an enormous quantity of honey (comb)? How many grams?
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They didn't have scales to weigh the mass of the honey, but in one documentary, the men were sitting below the honey-hive trees, gorging on big hunks of honeycomb with their bare hands and licking their fingers, eating nothing but honeycomb and grubcomb until full. In other words, they apparently saw it as a food rather than a special dessert that you limit yourself to 2 teaspsoon fulls. And I've never seen primitive people say stuff like modern people do along the lines of "Be careful to limit your intake of this toxic sugar called honey or it will rot your teeth and kill you. Sugar is sugar after all, and fructose is even worse. Fructose is in honey and also grows on fructose trees, don't ya know. I weighed myself this morning and found I had lost 2.3 pounds by avoiding honey and other evil sugars and carbs." ;)
Of course, I'm not saying that "metabolically deranged" [and lifestyle deranged] modern folk [necessarily] can do what healthy aboriginal folk can do, but it is interesting how traditional practices like honey eating tend to fly in the face of common beliefs.
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I notice that even 2 tea spoons of honey give me acid reflux :( So no more honey for me, replacing it with Stevia which tastes terrible to me.
Maybe it's good idea to binge for a week or so on seasonal fruits or honey when following strict LC for the rest of the year.
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When I eat honey I usually eat a whole jar (450g) within 5 minutes. Same goes for honeycomb.
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Haai, you're like a bear man! Not sure if even bears can eat that much in 5 minutes :D
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When I eat honey I usually eat a whole jar (450g) within 5 minutes. Same goes for honeycomb.
I would do the same if I ate honey a couple times a year, unfortunately it's there - right in front of me! Well, a couple teaspoons a days seems to be reasonable.
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When I eat honey I usually eat a whole jar (450g) within 5 minutes. Same goes for honeycomb.
WOW, talk about a blood sugar spike. I admit honey has some addicting qualities (Sugar)! I wonder if you have a yeast imbalance or something? I used to eat honey consistently, granted not like you though. I feel, and this is JMO here. If I'm going to eat honey, I'm only going to eat Raw Manuka Honey UMF (there are different potencies, the higher the number the more potent it is) from New Zealand. It has powerful anti-bacterial properties. Google it! Once you try it, you'll never go back! It's the only brand of Honey that I would use personally!
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http://www.reallyrawhoney.com.au/about-us/ (http://www.reallyrawhoney.com.au/about-us/)
what about this?
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WOW, talk about a blood sugar spike. I admit honey has some addicting qualities (Sugar)! I wonder if you have a yeast imbalance or something? I used to eat honey consistently, granted not like you though. I feel, and this is JMO here. If I'm going to eat honey, I'm only going to eat Raw Manuka Honey UMF (there are different potencies, the higher the number the more potent it is) from New Zealand. It has powerful anti-bacterial properties. Google it! Once you try it, you'll never go back! It's the only brand of Honey that I would use personally!
I have no idea if I have a yeast imbalance or something at this moment in time. I would say that I definitely used to have one though. Some people say that raw honey helps fight yeast problems, or at least does not worsen them.
I have tried Manuka honey before. It is indeed very nice, but also very expensive! Other favourites of mine are heather honey and tyme honey. Another great honey in my opinion is: http://www.funkyraw.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=340 (http://www.funkyraw.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=340) The only downside to that one is that smoke is used during the extraction of the honey from the hives, but I love the taste, especially when it has crystallized.
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mesquite honey is my absolute favorite, i am super tempted to buy 3 lbs from my friends down in arizona. i know where their hives are and i know the guy who harvest the honey, it is totally legit. its the creamiest looking honey i have ever seen. i definitely eat large amounts, up to a cup, of honey when i eat it , maybe 4 times a year at most? but i usually end up with super energy from that. it feels extremely healing internally for me
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Try Heavenly Organics! 100% Sustainable, 100% Fairly-Traded, 100% Humane… Really good stuff. I have tried the"Wild Forest"Neem Honey, I'd highly recommend it. www.heavenlyorganics.com/index.aspx (http://www.heavenlyorganics.com/index.aspx)
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I made the same test - with raw honeycomb aproximately 100 grams - i get very similar results
OK I finally put the claims re: raw honey to the test. I used raw comb honey--the kind that is made right in the cannister so there is no heating whatsoever--you can't get any rawer than that. They don't even have to hand-pack it, as the bees make the comb right in the containers. I found it via Internet search after Tyler mentioned how truly raw comb honey is not clear like the stuff sold in most stores. I had never heard of it before, so it was a pretty neat experience--and very tasty (and expensive).
First, here is some reference data for comparison:Here are my results:
5.21.10
5:51PM My random glucose after 4 hours of fasting = 87
5:55PM ate 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey (experienced some burning feeling on the tongue; noticed cinnamon notes--excellent tasting honey)
6:55PM random glucose 1 hour after eating 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey = 186 mg/dl
7:55PM random glucose 2 hours after eating 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey = 146 mg/dl
So my blood sugar numbers after eating raw comb honey were apparently a bit high even for diabetics! :o I'll bet that my numbers get spiked even more by heated honey. I hope to test that soon.
Has anyone else tested their blood sugar before and after eating raw honey?
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but after i read many posts from this blog http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/ (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/) i am not so sure that insulin spikes cause insulin resistance.
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I reported blood glucose spikes, not insulin spikes. I confused the two the same way when I first read Stephan's blog post on it in the past.
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Don't insulin spikes follow blood glucose spikes?
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Yes, though, as Ivanrk pointed out, Stephan wrote about how insulin spikes are not a problem. It's the blood glucose spikes that are the problem, according to him and Chris Kresser. When I asked Chris about it some time ago, he set me straight on this (at least, I think he did :) ).
Insulin spikes OK:
"...insulin spikes after meals temporarily decrease fat release from fat cells, but if you look at total 24 hour energy balance, insulin spikes, in conjunction with all the other hormones that are released in response to food ingestion, do not cause fat accumulation. This is exactly how you would expect the system to work if it were designed to constructively handle a wide variety of macronutrient ratios, which it is. Just as cholesterol did not evolve to give us heart attacks, insulin did not evolve to make us fat." http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html)
“All this postprandial insulin spikes = fat gain stuff is nonsense as far as I can tell.”
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/05/liposuction-and-fat-regain.html (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/05/liposuction-and-fat-regain.html)
Glucose spikes above 140-160 mg/dl = bad:
“Sustained glucose above 160 mg/dL or so causes damage to multiple organ systems. Some people would put that number closer to 140 mg/dL. …. Insulin doesn’t clear all the glucose as it enters the bloodstream, however. Some of it does accumulate, leading to a spike in blood glucose. This usually doesn’t exceed 160 mg/dL in a healthy person, and even if it approaches that level it’s only briefly. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/11/glucose-tolerance-in-non-industrial.html (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/11/glucose-tolerance-in-non-industrial.html)
Chris K. wrote: “postprandial or after meal stress is one of the most significant risk factors for heart attack”
http://chriskresser.com/the-healthy-skeptic-podcast-episode-9 (http://chriskresser.com/the-healthy-skeptic-podcast-episode-9)
Interestingly, when people eat VLC chronically, they tend to become peripherally insulin resistant, so that eating more than a tiny amount of carbs spikes the BG and is allegedly damaging and thus, eating carbs from time to time may help avoid major BG spikes and the damage that reportedly comes with it, assuming this is all correct.
If BG spikes above 160 mg/dl are bad, as even many LCers apparently accept, then if you're VLC and choose to continue eating some carbs, or if you choose to eat particularly sugary foods like raw honey and sugary fruits, then it may be a good idea to check your postprandial BG measurements, to see how much your BG gets spiked at various quantities, to find the safe intake levels for you.
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Am I missing something, because it seems to me that if you got blood glucose spikes "from honey", that you would simply decrease the amount of honey you eat at a time.. until the blood glucose doesn't 'spike' anywhere near bad levels.. I mean you're never going to be able to compare 4 oz of raw honey to 4 oz of raw meat and say that the honey is bad for you because it spikes BG more than the raw meat, because the amount is just too high.
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My daughter is a Type 1 diabetic. She tests BG all day, every day. There are 2 kinds of carbs - fast-acting carbs and slow acting carbs. The only slow acting carb foods are non-starchy vegetables. You will get a spike with any other carb food, whether it be fruit (including berries), honey, whole grains, starchy vegetables, or any other kind of sugar or carb. Eating carbs with fat does not prevent the spike. The body is very efficient at turning carbs into glucose. Even non-starchy vegetables will raise the BG, but it won't spike. Actually, even protein is turned into glucose by the body and will raise BG levels, though much more slowly. That is why you don't really need to eat carbs at all. The body will make what it needs from the protein. It is the spike (and the resulting insulin response) that causes damage to the body.
that's my view also. what's noticable is that even fruit creates an insulin spike although it is said that fructose does not raise insulin.
imo compared to the massive negative effects from the sugar honey can't possibly offer me enough benefits so i stay away from it. doesn't work with my low carb diet anyway and i don't crave sweet foods so what would be the point? i'm always reminded of "sugar - the bitter truth" when it comes to anything that contains fructose so common sense tells me to avoid it at all costs.
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that's my view also. what's noticable is that even fruit creates an insulin spike although it is said that fructose does not raise insulin.
Fruit contains sucrose and glucose too.
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Am I missing something, because it seems to me that if you got blood glucose spikes "from honey", that you would simply decrease the amount of honey you eat at a time.. until the blood glucose doesn't 'spike' anywhere near bad levels..
Correct, and that's basically what I do, though I don't fret if the BG level goes briefly into low bad levels.
that's my view also. what's noticable is that even fruit creates an insulin spike although it is said that fructose does not raise insulin.
Do you maybe mean blood glucose spike, rather than insulin spike? BG can be measured at home with a drop of blood and a glucometer, whereas insulin levels are typically measured by analysis of a blood draw by a lab.
compared to the massive negative effects from the sugar honey can't possibly offer me enough benefits so i stay away from it.
Have you tried fermented raw honey?
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On a related note, I tried buckwheat raw honey (from Northwoods Apiaries in Vermont), which Mark Sisson and others have raved about, and found it to be the first raw honey whose taste I don't care for at all. I'm not fond of the taste of Manuka honey, but I found buckwheat honey to be even less palatable. Buckwheat honey also stung my throat slightly.
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Buckwheat honey is my favorite at the moment, I love the taste. Much less sweet than the other types of honey.
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The buckwheat honey chapped my lower lip, as with other raw honeys, a minor annoyance. The really interesting thing is that following this with eating some fermented raw honey started to heal my lip within 20-30 minutes, and it was mostly healed by an hour and a half later. It's amazing how much of a difference fermentation makes when it comes to honey.
The buckwheat honey had a strong odor that I especially smelled while eating it, and it was unfortunately reminiscent of the odor from fields freshly fertilized with cow dung. Maybe because buckwheat is similar to the forage that many cows eat? So I don't think I'll be trying it again any time soon.