Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Welcoming Committee => Topic started by: KD on February 09, 2010, 08:54:23 am
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Trying to keep this as short as possible just to frame where I am at.
I started with veganism/raw dieting like 4 years or so ago, and have done most permutations of that. well over a year ago I started vising this forum as a guest and but then finally settled on Aajonus' program 100% (although at first I had no real access to dairy, so I guess in some way was closer to RPD other then the juices I was doing).
I had a number of issues that did not resolve this way from depression to physical health or was exacerbated for whatever reason.
In theory I realize how RPD or Primal in the end should be the most beneficial for my brain and overall health
just trying to figure out how to get from A to B. or at least someplace good in between.
like I said I have been hovering for years so finally decided to join
(EDIT: Small change to personal history in post per KD's request)
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My main symtpoms these days are extreme fatigue/stressed eyes etc... I'm approaching things as if its a candida issue even though I don't have alot of the other symptoms, eating carbs only in the form of green non starchy veggies, cooked raw and cultured + meat/eggs etc.... the only raw animals foods being raw eggs. Taking threelac probiotic after doing alot of research.
I've thought about incorporating raw dairy again into this plan either temporarily or if I did switch back to raw animals foods
I've read the stickys on transitioning etc...and I'm not sure mixing raw and cooked animals foods is a good idea -for me- I've eaten a few lbs of fattier cuts of raw grass-fed beef in the past month or so, and seems to not sit well with the other foods inside. People doing -or having done - a mixed approached would be of extra value for me right now.
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Avoid all raw dairy and raw veggie jucire and go rawpalaeo, IMO.
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Right, I've read enough posts by now to know that raw dairy has not worked well for a number of folks here. I can't say if it was helpful or detrimental for me, but I have a hard time believing if I was just doing organs and other animal fats like suet ( which of both I was getting occasionally) instead of dairy (which I was consuming in far less amounts then is recommend by AV) that the manic issues would have been avoided for that reason.
to me doing the raw dairy seems to be the most grounded (not saying what is healthiest or ideal for most people) esp integrating into a diet that is not all raw.
but sure, I'm always considering paleo, otherwise I probably wouldn't be here, just stating my experiences and thoughts, not my biases or beliefs :)
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Another thing I thought to mention is I was eating tons of raw chicken, I'd say in all of 6 months over 50% of what I ate was raw chicken.
I remember reading or hearing about Aajonus saying this was major detox for brain and nervous system, perhaps this was a factor. certainly people around me thought it was crazy! Mostly I was just bored and tired of the expense with local eastern coast fish, and at the time it was hard to get a hold of grass fed meat.
Doesn't seem like alot of paleos eat (store bought) chicken, perhaps just wild poultry?
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Raw cream & butter are absolutely necessary for beginners, you also need to include something like charcoal, to help deal with the extreme detox situations they might find
Charcoal is amazing for dealing with clients on medication, for any period of time
Charcoal is the first thing i introduce, along with raw cream & butter & some bee pollen to add some flavour to the cream, delicious
Also get kefir as soon as you can & replace the cream with it if you can
If you're not taking something like charcoal, or clay, you're opening yourself up to very dangerous detox symptoms, such as eczema or extreme allergic reactions, from medication & other toxic poisons which might be stored in your body
The raw cream & butter & to an extent milk, help ease beginners off a high carb diet & transition safely into a low carb ketogenic diet, without the energy problems most beginners experience if they try to transition on muscle meats alone
Charcoal in some water, before you eat, & take the cream as a pudding, with some bee pollen, or before you eat a main meal
The main mistake most beginners make is to go for the expensive, low fat cut muscle meats, most beginners need to go for the CHEAP fatty cuts, like brisket, or tougher cuts, like breast of lamb
Roll the cuts in butter or cream & take some charcoal before eating, to help deal minimize the detox symptoms & help your digestive system adjust to the changes
Also take plenty of organs, you only need a small amount, about 25 grams per meal to start with
I dont recommend raw sea food, or white meats, for beginners as it causes you to detox initially almost as fast as high meats
Doing the above will allow you to safely go on a raw paleo diet, even if you've been taking meds
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Hi KD. Good to see you posting.
I haven't tried charcoal or clay, but if it was me I might give it a shot. I don't know if you've tried them. It's not me anyway.
I've never been treated for cancer nor been treated with steroids or any of your meds, so I don't know from my own experience what may work for that. I did take a medication at a fairly high dose that is typically used for depression, anxiety, OCD, panic disorder, PTSD, PMDD and/or anxiety disorder. I was also taking (at first natural and then) synthetic thyroid hormone at the same time of the antidepressant. The natural I did not take very high of a dose, but the synthetic was slightly high, but still was according to what they found worked for me. I was able to get off all medication fairly quickly. I did have other medical conditions, but I refused treatment for them before the doctor even got the words out of the mouth to prescribe.
I have to hand it to you. I would have felt too bad psychically to accept any more than I did from them. It can take bravery to accept these helps that are so drastic. I didn't have the guts. I also had behind me knowledge of raw and health etc, so I felt a surety in avoiding medication. I guess I was always trained against chemo and steroids to some extents from a very young age, or I trained myself from what was shared with me.
In my situation, one thing that has helped me from reabsorbing my toxins, is totally raw and grassfed unsalted (kind of hard textured) cheese before each thing I eat or drink every time. I don't know if you have tried this, but if you have not, it may be worth a try. If you need an additional source, I can try to help you.
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Hi KD. Good to see you posting.
I haven't tried charcoal or clay, but if it was me I might give it a shot. I don't know if you've tried them. It's not me anyway.
I've never been treated for cancer nor been treated with steroids or any of your meds, so I don't know from my own experience what may work for that. I did take a medication at a fairly high dose that is typically used for depression, anxiety, OCD, panic disorder, PTSD, PMDD and/or anxiety disorder. I was also taking (at first natural and then) synthetic thyroid hormone at the same time of the antidepressant. The natural I did not take very high of a dose, but the synthetic was slightly high, but still was according to what they found worked for me. I was able to get off all medication fairly quickly. I did have other medical conditions, but I refused treatment for them before the doctor even got the words out of the mouth to prescribe.
I have to hand it to you. I would have felt too bad psychically to accept any more than I did from them. It can take bravery to accept these helps that are so drastic. I didn't have the guts. I also had behind me knowledge of raw and health etc, so I felt a surety in avoiding medication. I guess I was always trained against chemo and steroids to some extents from a very young age, or I trained myself from what was shared with me.
In my situation, one thing that has helped me from reabsorbing my toxins, is totally raw and grassfed unsalted (kind of hard textured) cheese before each thing I eat or drink every time. I don't know if you have tried this, but if you have not, it may be worth a try. If you need an additional source, I can try to help you.
I recommend charcoal, as its the first thing used for poisoning, even chronic poisoning, short of stomach pumping ... all pharmaceuticals are poisons, as theyre synthetic or extracted from their natural state
Clay is also good
Easily the best way to to go off medications, without the side effects, & withdrawl symptoms of ingesting toxic pharmaceutical poisons
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Raw cream & butter are absolutely necessary for beginners
Please, stop with the absolute blanket statements.
If I had done this "absolutely necessary" course of action when I started I'd have gotten much worse much quicker.
If you feel the need to push something like raw dairy please do so in a properly tempered way such as "In my experience raw cream & butter are great ways for a beginner to transition". It's not hard to take the extra two seconds.
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Please, stop with the absolute blanket statements.
If I had done this "absolutely necessary" course of action when I started I'd have gotten much worse much quicker.
If you feel the need to push something like raw dairy please do so in a properly tempered way such as "In my experience raw cream & butter are great ways for a beginner to transition". It's not hard to take the extra two seconds.
I explained why it was necessary
Obviously if you cant tolerate dairy dont take it ...
You need animal fats to transition to a ketogenic diet, raw cream contains a good mixture of high fats & carbs, i dont recommend milk for reasons in my main post above
Kefir is even better & highly recommended over raw dairy
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You need animal fats to transition to a ketogenic diet, raw cream contains a good mixture of high fats & carbs, i dont recommend milk for reasons in my main post above
Kefir is even better & highly recommended over raw dairy
Coconut kefir? The bubbly stuff that comes from culturing liver just right?
I agree, straight milk is good for mammal babies.
Does KD have to go ketogenic? I'm not sure of that.
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I agree, straight milk is good for mammal babies.
Then what is bent milk good for? No, I don't even want to think about that question.
Seems this has already been covered:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/sick-topic/
>_<
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Then what is bent milk good for?
bent?
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Coconut kefir? The bubbly stuff that comes from culturing liver just right?
I agree, straight milk is good for mammal babies.
Does KD have to go ketogenic? I'm not sure of that.
Culturing liver to make kefir?
Havent heard of that one, how do you culture liver to make kefir?
He doesnt have to no, its upto him at the end of the day, if he's terminally ill, or plain sick, he might have to
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Havent heard of that one, how do you culture liver to make kefir?
He doesnt have to no, its upto him at the end of the day, if he's terminally ill, or plain sick, he might have to
I've left liver in the fridge in a hard and closed container. It got bubbly, liquidy and nice tasting :P
I don't think KD's terminally ill at this point. I think he's just looking for better health, and in total remission from the cancer. It's not fun being on medications. I can understand wanting off, or just progressively better health. Whatever one can manage.
I said liver; because you said kefir is better than dairy. Did you mean milk? Doesn't matter. I was just trying to think of a paleo kefir. I don't think other meats have enough carbs to make it.
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Aajonus isn't against carbs, he loves them. He loves recommending raw veggie-juice in large quantities as well as plenty of raw honey and raw nuts.
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Tyler:
well as I already said I have a hard time believing if I was just doing organs and other animal fats like suet ( which of both I was getting occasionally) instead of dairy (which I was consuming in far less amounts then is recommend by AV) that the manic issues would have been avoided for that reason.
or the carbs I was eating in the forms of juices and some honey (wasn't doing nuts)
but you are right, I think I was trying to imply that I infered that burning carbs as main fuel source was manic energy akin to his discussion of fruits...this idea would allow for eating of some carbs.
Roony:
I think the emphasis on chicken and fish could have been A factor that accelerated things and unbalanced my brain, perhaps if I was more focused on beef/organs and tried the charcoal and unsalted cheese and such things could have progressed more slowly and smoothly. Or perhaps eating cooked foods like I think he prescribes for some.
Sure I've taken my share of drugs and have no doubt even with my diet experimentation over many years that these remain, but at the present I unfortunately have the requirement of keeping the current and only one in my system.
if my only worries were eczema or extreme allergic reactions, or depression, this of course would not be the case.
i'm sure they are factoring into my fatigue situation but as Rawzi points out medically I'm quite healthy, all the extensive lab stuff shows nada etc..
but I find your tips very helpful (although I was eating the cheap fatty cuts)
RawZi:
Sure I have plenty of scrutiny and knowledge and folks saying if you do this or that then x drugs are unnecessary that it is VERY hard to take stuff that doesn't even make one feel good - in fact its quite the opposite. its certainly all over the raw-vegan camps which I don't believe, and at this point I can't afford to go on my -or others -ideals over my experiences. Even if I have confidence that any approach could in fact do the long term healing and repair, it seems I need an approach that functions in the short and long terms and isn't going to land me in a prison or hospital away from any healthful food.
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Aajonus isn't against carbs, he loves them. He loves recommending raw veggie-juice in large quantities as well as plenty of raw honey and raw nuts.
He recommends nut formula (a recipe whose ingredients are nuts fresh made organic checked coconut cream or organic raw dairy cream butter dunno & raw egg) for some conditions/people at certain times. I think for some type of adrenal, and also for some type of a brain detox.
I know a lady who was diagnosed with a terrible brain cancer years ago and she is slowly getting healthier (definitely) and is eating 100% primal diet that includes nuts. She had been in terrible shape and also unable to walk, talk etc.
AV does say to not eat nuts every day (and I do mean nut formula). I think he says nuts make people stay awake when they would be better sleeping. I think some raw people get nightmares from eating nuts too. I know some people on raw vegan diets who lose their hair by eating nuts. Changing to cooked meat from raw vegan seemed to help better to some extent (in ones I saw). Maybe it's the brain detox through the scalp.
One (raw vegan) friend was going to lose all hair (very likely permanently) from brain detox (with or without nuts), but added (raw both) butter and meat to his own diet and started using (raw) butter as a scalp treatment (and egg for after treatment shampoo) and instead the hair got thicker, shinier and darker. We'll see as the years pass what happens following av's advice there.
The veggie juice he recommended me is zucchini and celery, fewer carbs there than kale/cucumber. He said my pancreas is too weak. I don't even know that he recommends kale to anyone. I think it may be the minerals in the juice he goes for.
I think the emphasis on chicken and fish could have been A factor that accelerated things and unbalanced my brain, perhaps if I was more focused on beef/organs and tried the charcoal and unsalted cheese and such things could have progressed more slowly and smoothly. Or perhaps eating cooked foods like I think he prescribes for some.
I think brown rice, baked chicken, sourdough bread, depending on the health needs the person is going thru or age.
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RawZi:
Sure I have plenty of scrutiny and knowledge and folks saying if you do this or that then x drugs are unnecessary that it is VERY hard to take stuff that doesn't even make one feel good - in fact its quite the opposite. its certainly all over the raw-vegan camps which I don't believe, and at this point I can't afford to go on my -or others -ideals over my experiences. Even if I have confidence that any approach could in fact do the long term healing and repair, it seems I need an approach that functions in the short and long terms and isn't going to land me in a prison or hospital away from any healthful food.
I just want to tell you I'm glad you're here, even if you're not ready to eat raw paleo yourself, due to whatever reasons. You've been through a lot, and I know you need support, just like everyone in this world does. It's too bad that in some other raw forums they care more about a chicken's life even more than their own children, parents or their lifelong neighbor in some cases (or even more than the environment). I love animals too, but sooner or later things have to be weighed out.
You should get fully well in this lifetime, as you can, hopefully soon, and live a long good life. You didn't tell me KD is you, but I can tell. I know you're a wonderful addition to this planet and so many people. You also have guts to speak and not just read, even if you're finding you can't presently practice the same exact diets as us without landing yourself in trouble galore.
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(First I posted about this, shocked that you could think someone's hair falling out is a positive thing, then deleted it),Hmm.. With the hair falling out... We can grow it back, other animals can grow their limbs back. Do animals, which have this ability, discard their limbs in a similar way? That'd have to be something pretty serious I guess... But the hair thing seems to make a lot of sense.. I've heard before of them using the hair to tell if people had excessive quantities of certain chemicals. And it's not much of a loss...
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(First I posted about this, shocked that you could think someone's hair falling out is a positive thing, then deleted it),Hmm.. With the hair falling out... We can grow it back, other animals can grow their limbs back. Do animals, which have this ability, discard their limbs in a similar way?
I never thought of that. Maybe if a limb of an animal got poisoned, it could fall off with the poison in it, and regrow from clean tissue. I have no idea, as I've never seen something like that either.
My cat lost all her fur by taking a "properly" vet prescribed veterinary medication. I took her off the medicine with the same vet group's reluctant consent, and her hair grew back, first surprisingly red/orange/rust then turned back to it's original shiny color instead. That vet twelve and a half years ago along with the others were insisting she be put to sleep too, for her own good, as she was sicker than they've probably ever seen and educated guess couldn't survive. Let me tell you, she has been strong and healthy and beautiful ever since her hair grew back. She did get arthritis later on, but raw meat nipped that away, and she is boisterous and can do just about anything with all her parts (besides uterus) intact. That too had problems before then. Kitten-hood wasn't the best time for her. She's been very happy acting ever since she recovered her hair(fur).
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Whenever I see 'detox' I tend to spring in to ultra-scrutising mode. Hence the initial reply.
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If you're going to eat dairy I strongly recommend butter 1st, then cream and cheese, lastly milk. Cultured is good but all I see in stores is low fat yogurt anymore, although farmers markets sometimes have full fat yogurt.
Having said that, dairy is completely unnecessary. I'm sure you know that. If you feel like it's helping you then use it, but I've tried a number of times to do an AV type thing with dairy and it always makes my stomach feel off, kind of airy and weak. When I eat raw meat (muscle, fat and organs) I do not get this feeling, even if I eat a lot.
Even though this is a raw forum I think that transitioning from cooked paleo foods is easier and more healthy for most people than raw neolithic ones. That is to say that I think eating some cooked meats and veggies is better for many people than raw dairy. You should be able to figure out what works better for you.
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Even though this is a raw forum I think that transitioning from cooked paleo foods is easier and more healthy for most people than raw neolithic ones. That is to say that I think eating some cooked meats and veggies is better for many people than raw dairy.
I switched from cooked neolithic. It works/worked better for me than cooked paleo. Raw neolithic has worked better for me than cooked. RAF is easier to maintain, as raw vegan is too perfectionistic. Perfectionism can lead to problems. I've never been 100% raw paleo though for more than a few weeks at a time or months. I think I need dairy at least every couple weeks at this time. Hopefully sometime I won't again.
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Kyle, I thought I read recently you were trying some AV principals in your diet again, were you once again doing dairy recently?
I went ahead and ordered butter and got it thurs. like I said, I have done RAF before and am trying to integrate as many healthful RVAF princples into my present cooked paleo/primal diet for the reasons/fears about a 100% raw diet - for myself only. I think I've had at least 5 raw meat and/or butter meals in the last 5 days or so, so this has nothing to do with an adversion to eating meat raw. I am weighing the idea of ordering frozen grass-fed fats (as these are not even slightly available in my area) to supplement this approach.
I think I know what you mean about the stomach feeling off, for me its more like there is alot more blood pumping to my stomach even than with cooked foods. but I'm often eating 800 cal or so of the butter per meal, and even than I'm still not getting enough food per day really.
Rawzi:, I find even cooked paleo (at least the version I am practicing) to be incredibly 'perfectionistic', perhaps I wouldn't use that word but I seemed to eat a wider range of things/pack meals and snacks easier etc.. even as a raw vegan. On RVAF I think I didn't care because I felt good, cooking in the afternoon is like crazyness to me.
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Kyle, I thought I read recently you were trying some AV principals in your diet again, were you once again doing dairy recently?
Yes that's correct, and is why I'm saying what I'm saying now. After a year or so sometimes I forget how something worked and try it again, and also the great flavor of cream and butter blended with eggs and honey helps with selective memory. Maybe I should give myself more time to get used to it, but after a week of trying to drink a cream or butter AV drink a day I think it's safe to say that at the very least they aren't as good for me as meat. Whenever I eat meat I feel very good after wards, no indigestion of any kind. And I don't have to get used to it, which is why I think the dairy won't work. If you have to "get used to" a certain food, while others digest perfectly and give you good health right away, I'm betting the latter is healthier overall.
If you have any specific questions I'd be glad to field, either here or in my journal. I've tried pure AV before, and many incarnations of that with more paleo principles.
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Ah, yeah I certainly have fonder memories of the AV drinks myself. Perhaps because I've removed honey from my diet, but I made one with 4 oz of butter and a few eggs, and it was really hard to get down. I think your logic about "getting used to it" makes sense. It doesn't seem to cause me as many physical problems, but I've never really found raw dairy to be very appetizing other than cheese, which I am not eating now. Its always strange to me when paleos or even vegans talk about dairy in terms of addictions or taste, I have to force it down, and would prefer meat/fat myself. Eating it with meat is preferable, but still more of a project then a joy. I feel the same about cooked meat, I get very little joy out of it, and since I only eat meat I make myself, its certainly not exciting or more social than eating raw meat.
do you eat your animal fats from frozen or fresh sources?
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My animal fats are always frozen. The only place I've been able to get suet and other body fat is from Slankers, which ship their meats frozen out of necessity. One chance I might have is in the warmer seasons to get lamb shoulder from the Reading Terminal Market in Philadelphia. I get that frozen now, but sometimes in warmer seasons they have more fresh meat available. Also I sometimes get food from a co op I belong to, which sources from Pennsylvania Dutch farmers. They have more fresh in the Spring and Summer as well, but don't have suet on their list of items. I may ask them about it some day, they do have lard and tallow they make themselves, so they should be able to sell the raw material for that. Between those 3 sources I get 99% of my raw meat, and they're all grass fed sources. I should inquire at Whole Foods because sometimes they have grass fed cuts. Maybe they're throwing some fat out that I could get for free or discounted. I personally feel fine on frozen meat, but then again I never tried eating 100% fresh for a while to see if I felt better on that.
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I asked in another thread about places like WF discarding fat, and the consensus seemed to be that they ship the muscle meats as is and maybe just divide into smaller portions. that real butchering is becoming a thing of the past.
I can get grass fed muscle meats from WF - and the fattier cuts like chuck and shoulder are actually quite cheap - but not consistently
I used to eat some grain fed WF meat raw, but now cook it.
Slankers was what I was considering, I'll mull it over some more in the next few days, thanks for sharing your experience.