Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Exercise / Bodybuilding => Topic started by: TylerDurden on August 22, 2009, 01:27:19 am
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I'd like to restart martial arts after a very long time away from Judo(I was a green belt). I like Judo for the hefty exercixse involved(it's like wrestling), but I'd also like something more combat-based, these days.
I've heard lots of good things about Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, but have also heard of how Ninjutsu-practitioners(led by Hatsumi) beat them hollow in Japan in those trial-fights that the BJJ guys like to setup to "prove" the superiority of their art. I'm certainly not in favour of any too specialist martial arts like taekwondo(too focused on the legs) or self-defence(like aikido). I want to kick someone's butt!
I've also heard of Krav Magna but it sounds too Israeli-specialised or whatever.
Anyway, any recommendations/suggestions?
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You heard what about ninjutsu?
I've not heard much about Hatsumi's guys since he stopped "seeding" in the 1980s. The early guys are all bad ass, but I hear tale his new guys (especially in the last decade) are mostly studying history. Very commendable, but not very practical.
The only story I heard with regard to BJJ & ninjutsu was when one of Bussey's guys in Texas bit Rickson on the ear and wouldn't let go, so the "ref" stopped the match and DQ-ed him. He said his point was that there is cage fighting and then there is real fighting, and ground work is only so functional as your opponent's willingness to NOT cheat (in that it tends to ignore the realities of environment, for example, or that people might gouge eyes, bite, etc.).
BJJ, however, is great for what it is, and I'd be surprised if within that context (including UFC-style fighting) any ninjutsu practitioner could beat a BJJ practitioner in the ring.
For an overall system, I rather like what the pancrase guys do.
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From what I understand, 1 of Hatsumi's assistants beat the BJJ guy very quickly(re some sort of leg-attack). BJJ is supposed to be excellent re groundwork, but, obviously, once you're forced to the ground, you're pretty much dead already,anyway.
The reason why I'm in favour of ninjutsu, is that it was always designed as a way to beat stronger opponents than you PROVIDED you had better martial arts skill. When one considers martial arts like judo, they're just totally dependent on the arm-reach, height and central strength of the combatant, not necessarily due to skill. I used to easily beat lots of skinny guys but find it difficult to manage to beat the wrestler-physiques of the black-belt judokas on the mat.
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Hey tyler,
Thought this account might interest you with regards to Ninjutsu.
My much older half brother is friends with an man who is highly trained in a rediculous number of martial arts including ninjutsu. He has been involved in martial arts for 20+ years I think he said, and earns money working as a martial arts trainer for films. If I remember correctly he said that there were very few schools left (i seem to remember anywhere from 1 to 5 maybe), that teach the true martial art of ninjutsu of which he was particularly proud and fortunate enough to be a pupil of for a number of years, gaining the highest level of respect/skill. I seem to remember his teacher being someone rather important. As I said, the man had gained the highest level in this school, and we were amazed when he described what was required of him in order to do this. I remember him describing how he had to sit cross legged on the floor with his back to his teacher. His teacher would creep towards in near silence him and strike, and he was to counter! Needless to say after finding out the history and skill of this man my brother and I barely left him alone all night. The accounts were incredible.
He did say I seem to remember that despite being highly accomplished in all these different ma's, I remember him being highly qualified in karate for one, he said that he without a doubt he held ninjutsu in the highest of regards. I think it was the shear directness that he appreciated; the fastest most efficient responce to a situtation. He said that however it was an art formulated to kill, and as such all the blows usually were intended to be fatal, or incredibly damaging. It required him to be highly efficient and adaptable at using anything in his surrounds as a weapon to kill, and the surroundings themselves to his advantage. Day or night, all must be drawn upon. He said it also took tremendous ammounts of discipline. It is impossible to correctly identify a martial art as being truely superior, it is of course how the individual uses it - but Ninjutsu, when taught correctly, sounded absolutely deadly.
I would be more than happy to track him down if you ever wanted to speak to him first hand.
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Well as stated above there's cage fighting, and real fighting, from what I've seen in a cage fight BJJ is the most effective single MA and all my life I've heard rumors of the deadly death blows etc. but never have seen such a thing. I think if anyone knew any real deadly or extremely damaging strikes they would use them for a quick victory. I can knock someone unconcious with one punch which in real fighting would be deadly because I could then proceed to stomp or suffocate them or whatever. I just don't believe in these mythical deadly strikes. Unless ovecourse someone makes a weapon out of the environment. Ninjitsu sounds like a real world survival fighting skill involving makeshift weapons and using the environment etc. Within the confines of MMA competition where there are a few rules I've never seen anything as effective as ju jitsu. Therefore like you say it is impossible to really say there is any supreme martial arts style. The cool thing about MMA is that it has evolved fighting to a point where no master of any one style stands any real chance. You really do have to develop skill in multiple martial art styles to have a chance now days. We have taken fighting hand to hand to a higher level than it's ever been before by combining the best of multiple martial arts into one.
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Nicely put mate - i think that makes alot of sense.
I didnt mean fatal in a kind of 1 hit punch explosion like fist of the north star! Just like you said, things that would render someone completely vunerable, like gouging someones eye out, or punching them in the neck.
But as I said, well put.
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Phatdave, 1 of the reasons why I became interested about Ninjutsu was because of hearing about Hatsumi demonstrating that same trick of detecting an opponent silently stalking behind him. Plus, Ninjutsu was always meant as a serious art, whereas most martial arts are now just sport-oriented.
I doubt I'll ever become truly proficient in Ninjutsu, but I never once found Judo useful outside the DoJo(well, except for learning how to fall properly). Anyway, I gather there are a few clubs in London so I'll see how it goes.
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Well as stated above there's cage fighting, and real fighting, from what I've seen in a cage fight BJJ is the most effective...
Yes, it has a proven track record.
I'm not sure I'd use the term "best" simply because it is not a complete system, but is a takedown & ground fighting system. But as such, it works wonderfully in conjunction with a system designed primarily for the stand-up game (boxing, muay thai, etc).
Have you seen any of the pancrase (by whatever spelling) guys? Essentially the above-mentioned stand & ground games fused into a single system. Cool stuff. It might be worth looking into (due to it's transition work) AFTER you spend some time working BJJ.
Check out Sakuraba (in his prime was known as "The Gracie Hunter").
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44E-lW3aYhM
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and all my life I've heard rumors of the deadly death blows etc. but never have seen such a thing. I think if anyone knew any real deadly or extremely damaging strikes they would use them for a quick victory. I can knock someone unconcious with one punch which in real fighting would be deadly because I could then proceed to stomp or suffocate them or whatever. I just don't believe in these mythical deadly strikes.
Striking the carotid sinus on the carotid artery is a pretty effective knockout/kill point. There are others, like the crown of the head, the underside of the occiput, and one on the forearm.
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Yes, it has a proven track record.
I'm not sure I'd use the term "best" simply because it is not a complete system, but is a takedown & ground fighting system. But as such, it works wonderfully in conjunction with a system designed primarily for the stand-up game (boxing, muay thai, etc).
Have you seen any of the pancrase (by whatever spelling) guys? Essentially the above-mentioned stand & ground games fused into a single system. Cool stuff. It might be worth looking into (due to it's transition work) AFTER you spend some time working BJJ.
Check out Sakuraba (in his prime was known as "The Gracie Hunter").
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44E-lW3aYhM
I actually am an MMA fighter(very similar to pancrase). I'm a very dangerous striker but the 2 matches I've lost were by submission. It seems that once you have a reputation for knocking fighters out, then suddenly nobody wants to stand up fight with you any more. My last 4 fights have been a progression of better and better ground fighters who wanted nothing to do with my standup. The honest truth is, without what ground fighting skills I do have (rapidly improving), I would have lost every one of those fights. When a pure striker and a pure ground fighter clash, you should put your money on the ground fighter every time. I've learned this the hard way myself and seen it 100 times. My devastating striking stands a poor chance against a pure ju-jitsu guy. Thats why Gracie dominated the early UFC when all the different martial arts styles clashed. Which is why I say if you could only train at one form of martial arts, ju jitsu is your best bet. However with the evolution of mixed martial arts even a black belt in ju-jitsu isn't good enough. Now we have to be good at everything and ready for anything, which is AWESOME:-) I love a huge challenge. My last fight was against a Gracie ju jitsu fighter who's won multiple grappling tournaments. My job was to keep it on the feet and his job was to get me to the ground and submit me. He ducked a punch executed a good takedown, he had me in full mount but i threw him off because I'm a beast (literally the strongest light heavyweight fighter I've ever know of), but he transitioned onto some strange variation of a kimora so fast I had no chance, I faught his whole body with my arm, I was strong enough to resist an armbar so he switched it into a kimora which puts my arm in a very jeopardized position. It's supposed to dislocate my shoulder but my shoulder is too strong so I still didnt tap, then it dislocated my elbow and turned my forarm away from the rest of my arm in a rather interesting angle. I got to leave that fight in an ambulance, some people get broken bones and punctured blood vessels and nerve damage or blod clots from such a thing. Fortunately my tendons didn't snap they just got way overstretched to where they had to put a cast on me because my radius wouldn't even stay in the socket when the doc relocated it because the tendons were so loose lol. Keep in mind the guy who was able to do this to me could most likely not bench press or squat or dead lift much more than half the weight I can. He broke the stronger man using the amazing leverages that ju jitsu gives to a skilled user. I've seen more smaller or weaker guys beat stronger and bigger guys with ju jitsu than anything else. This guy couldn't have hit me hard enough to knock me out or make me quit (I've taken a mauling from much bigger guys and never been knocked out) , he couldn't hold me down and ground n pound me or beat me up on the ground, his only option was to beat me with a submission. We both knew that going in and I honestly expected to win but with that darn ju jitsu he was able to make it happen still. You can know for sure that after this experience, the submission fighting aspect of my fighting game is going to be my main focus.
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It's mostly speculation on my part, but I think a purely carnivorous raw diet may improve your instincts, reflexes, joint strength and flexibility, all at the same time. The potential downside is loss of bulk that you may use to pin and throw opponents and resist being thrown.
Re: sensing the opponent from behind. When I ate lots of carbs I was frequently startled and taken by surprise by people who approached me from an angle, from behind or from within a crowd. It was annoying. That is happening less and less often since I went carnivorous, and I am starting to detect those same people before they notice me. I seem to be rapidly changing from prey into predator.
Two people I know who went near-Paleo after I gave them some information reported that they have developed a sixth sense for detecting people without seeing them. These are very rational, unsuperstitious people. Years ago I even saw a report on a scientific study that found evidence of this sense. I know almost nothing of martial arts, but if this sense is real and can develop even further, then it may be theoretically possible for a carnivorous martial artist to consistently strike an opponent without even seeing him. In other words, you could not only detect him as he snuck up behind you, but you might be able to strike him in a vulnerable spot without looking, just as he approached you. I wouldn't recommend that, of course (especially in real life, where he might have a knife or gun), but it would be pretty cool if possible.
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Ninjitsu isn't a martial art. It translates to "the art of patience" and is a combination of martial arts, stealth, espionage, survival and many other techniques. It could also be called a way of life and philosophy, but imo it's been dead in any kind of pure and practical sense for decades or centuries. There is no "ninja fighting style" or system.
I do kickboxing and bjj and would recommend anyone looking to do martial arts for health/self defense/fun to do the same.
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Ninjitsu isn't a martial art. It translates to "the art of patience" and is a combination of martial arts, stealth, espionage, survival and many other techniques. It could also be called a way of life and philosophy, but imo it's been dead in any kind of pure and practical sense for decades or centuries. There is no "ninja fighting style" or system.
I do kickboxing and bjj and would recommend anyone looking to do martial arts for health/self defense/fun to do the same.
Actually,from what I've recently read, ninjutsu seems to not involve 1 martial-arts discipline but something like 7-9 others. It's apparently relatively similiar to Ju-Jitsu, from what I've read, its just that they have additional techniques as well for spying etc., and the techniques are more usually meant to kill or confuse an opponent rather than just disarming him. They did have some outdated techniques(such as throwing objects at armoured opponents) which are no longer relevant to modern times, but much of their disciplines appear to be still useful.
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Kyle & Tyler, you are both (to a degree, anyway) correct.
Ninjutsu (ninpo) is a single system composed of 9 schools that include hand-to-hand techniques (strikes & grappling largely from different schools), weapons techniques, and more (including the "18 skills" which includes everything from stealth to horseback riding to reading the stars).
Hatsumi is the recognized "top dog" who has incorporated the above 9 schools/lineages into a single school: The Bujinkan. The founders of all other schools - from Hayes' Quest Centers to Tanamura's Genbukan to even the now defunct RBWI - were once students of Hatsumi's.
As I said earlier, Hatsumi taught some devastating stuff back in the day (during his "seeding" period), but most of what he has been teaching in the past 2 decades is little more than "moving history". His guys put on period clothing, for example, to fully appreciate the grappling techniques or the cumbersome weapons.
There are still folks out there who teach "the real thing" (i.e. - the parts relevant to modern armed & unarmed combat), but you'd have a VERY difficult time finding them.
For Americans, my advice is to find someone who was with Hayes back in the 1980s and has rejected the popular move of running off to study (and thus follow) Hatsumi. I can't speak for what Hayes is doing now with his Quest centers, but the old Nine Gates curriculum placed the information in a solid structural framework that allowed techniques to become subordinate to higher aspects of conflict resolution.
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Yet a lot of Ninjutsu teachers state that Stephen Hayes is a bogus teacher.
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My point is that "ninjitsu" is a word that has meant many things over the years. I gave the literal translation, whatever anyone says it is now, whatever arts it teaches or has taught, is one of the temporary definitions of that literal term.
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It's mostly speculation on my part, but I think a purely carnivorous raw diet may improve your instincts, reflexes, joint strength and flexibility, all at the same time. The potential downside is loss of bulk that you may use to pin and throw opponents and resist being thrown.
Re: sensing the opponent from behind. When I ate lots of carbs I was frequently startled and taken by surprise by people who approached me from an angle, from behind or from within a crowd. It was annoying. That is happening less and less often since I went carnivorous, and I am starting to detect those same people before they notice me. I seem to be rapidly changing from prey into predator.
Two people I know who went near-Paleo after I gave them some information reported that they have developed a sixth sense for detecting people without seeing them. These are very rational, unsuperstitious people. Years ago I even saw a report on a scientific study that found evidence of this sense. I know almost nothing of martial arts, but if this sense is real and can develop even further, then it may be theoretically possible for a carnivorous martial artist to consistently strike an opponent without even seeing him. In other words, you could not only detect him as he snuck up behind you, but you might be able to strike him in a vulnerable spot without looking, just as he approached you. I wouldn't recommend that, of course (especially in real life, where he might have a knife or gun), but it would be pretty cool if possible.
You know I'll bet your onto something here and this is the kind of thing that really gets me excited about this diet.
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Ninjitsu isn't a martial art. It translates to "the art of patience" and is a combination of martial arts, stealth, espionage, survival and many other techniques. It could also be called a way of life and philosophy, but imo it's been dead in any kind of pure and practical sense for decades or centuries. There is no "ninja fighting style" or system.
I do kickboxing and bjj and would recommend anyone looking to do martial arts for health/self defense/fun to do the same.
Thats the way I see kung fu. A lifestyle and way of thinking more than a fighting style. I think hollywood gave us westerners a retarded idea of what kung fu is.
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Thats the way I see kung fu. A lifestyle and way of thinking more than a fighting style. I think hollywood gave us westerners a retarded idea of what kung fu is.
You're correct, as the translation for "kung fu" is close to the word "practice" or "training." There is so much bs surrounding the world of martial arts, in particular traditional Asian martial arts, that it's very hard to find out the truth about a style and it's history. I basically don't even worry about it, since there aren't any ninjas or monks winning fights in mixed martial arts. There was a ninjitsu guy at UFC 1, got pounded on and looked like a fool. Also once I saw a guy who said he could hit people without touching them get punched in the face by a Muay Thai fighter and gave up very quickly.
The martial arts history I like is Greek, like David is talking about with pankration. Alexander the Great brought martial arts into India, and then Indians (the Boddhidharma in particular) brought them into China, into the Shaolin temple. And then for centuries stories of people doing magical things clouded this history, and now we have very unclear lineages. Modern lineages are easy to see though, and the only martial arts schools winning any fights in mma are schools that focus on bjj, Greco-Roman and folk style wrestling, and Greco-Roman and Thai boxing.
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Fascinating. I already knew about India introducing martial arts to china but had no idea that alexander the great introduced martial arts to india. Must read up on this.
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Yet a lot of Ninjutsu teachers state that Stephen Hayes is a bogus teacher.
Yes, that position has been in vogue for quite some time.
It may well be true of his work in the past 10+ years - I don't know. I've never been to his Quest Center in OH. That said, it is definitely true (in my opinion) of MOST of the other ninpo teachers I've seen. Most of them were never half as good as Hayes was, and are now even worse.
Given that, I place little or no value on their opinion of Hayes.
The hold that view primarily because what Hayes taught them (he structure, not the techniques) is different from what Hatsumi teaches. They forget that Hayes' mandate from Hatsumi back in the 1970s & early 1980s was to create a structure in order to teach Americans the art of ninjutsu. Hatsumi didn't ask them - he asked Hayes. Hayes complied.
If they think Hayes is bogus, they think (whether they realize it or not) that Hatsumi has poor judgment.
That aside, I doubt you'll find a decent ninjutsu teacher...unless you are interested in studying history & culture as opposed to a real system of fighting.
RE: Other martial arts - If you are interested in fighting, BJJ, judo, & wrestling are great for ground work while boxing & muay thai are great for stand up. If you dig weapons usage, you might try some kali/eskrima. There are plenty of places that teach a combination of arts.
Personally, I don't like the modern model used to analyze fight technique (ground v stand-up), but I suppose it's useful for communication.
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Yes, that position has been in vogue for quite some time.
It may well be true of his work in the past 10+ years - I don't know. I've never been to his Quest Center in OH. That said, it is definitely true (in my opinion) of MOST of the other ninpo teachers I've seen. Most of them were never half as good as Hayes was, and are now even worse.
Given that, I place little or no value on their opinion of Hayes.
The hold that view primarily because what Hayes taught them (he structure, not the techniques) is different from what Hatsumi teaches. They forget that Hayes' mandate from Hatsumi back in the 1970s & early 1980s was to create a structure in order to teach Americans the art of ninjutsu. Hatsumi didn't ask them - he asked Hayes. Hayes complied.
If they think Hayes is bogus, they think (whether they realize it or not) that Hatsumi has poor judgment.
From what I have seen and expirienced the ground guys beat the standup fighters the vast majority of the time. Thats what evolved MMA into a mixture of everything, if you don't have it all you gotta stick to a sport that only does what you are good at like kickboxing if you don't have a ground fighting game or wrestling if you are afraid of being hit. I love MMA for bringing it all together.
That aside, I doubt you'll find a decent ninjutsu teacher...unless you are interested in studying history & culture as opposed to a real system of fighting.
RE: Other martial arts - If you are interested in fighting, BJJ, judo, & wrestling are great for ground work while boxing & muay thai are great for stand up. If you dig weapons usage, you might try some kali/eskrima. There are plenty of places that teach a combination of arts.
Personally, I don't like the modern model used to analyze fight technique (ground v stand-up), but I suppose it's useful for communication.
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I guess you have a point re Hayes.
I've been looking into this a bit more, and there seems to be a real mixture of martial arts available, Even an MMA/Ninjutsu mix. I already know Judo well enough(I'm a green belt, albeit somewhat inactivefor years) so may first start off with Ju-Jitsu, and go on from there.
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From what I have seen and expirienced the ground guys beat the standup fighters the vast majority of the time. Thats what evolved MMA into a mixture of everything, if you don't have it all you gotta stick to a sport that only does what you are good at like kickboxing if you don't have a ground fighting game or wrestling if you are afraid of being hit. I love MMA for bringing it all together.
MMA is a fantastic sport. I did some pancrase stuff way back when MMA was still only quasi-legal (at a fight in GA we were told if the police showed up we could be arrested - thankfully they didn't show up, though I lost that fight). It was great because it was the first time (in the ring, anyway) that you could combine the majority of your hand-to-hand skills with little concern for over-limiting rules. It was just as fun, with a greater sense of freedom, as when I was boxing & wrestling way back in high school.
I assume your response had nothing to do with my comments about Hayes, but had to do with my statement regarding the ground vs stand-up model that is currently popular. Within the context of MMA sport fighting, the division is probably the best there is. However, outside the ring I still dislike the current model because I think there are better ways to draw the analytical knife (one could divide physical conflict into weapons usage vs H2H or into striking vs grappling, for 2 common examples).
There is no doubt that the Gracie family (Rorion especially, as well as Royce [the "public face" of Gracie Juijitsu]) have earned a shining place in the history of martial arts alongside legends like Bruce Lee.
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Fascinating. I already knew about India introducing martial arts to china but had no idea that alexander the great introduced martial arts to india. Must read up on this.
There are some martial arts that may have predated this, but by and large I believe most modern hand to hand combat systems from Asia have at least some of their roots in the pankration practiced by the Greeks that invaded East to India.
I don't see why they don't just call mma pankration, that's where it's from. And if you look at the art from then it looks the same, guys mostly nude with leather straps on their hands to lower the chances of cutting the face with punches. I heard it used to be the main event of the original Olympics, now it's not even legal in the Olympics.
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From what I've learned and experienced, there is nothing quite as effective for self defense as learning a kickboxing style coupled with an effective grappling technique. I'm looking to start training in both although at the moment I only box.
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I would look into mixed martial arts Tyler. There are two known MMA/UFC fighters in the UK. Dan Hardy and Michael Bisbing. But anyway, look into many arts and only use what you see affective in a actual fight.
I would recommend reading into Bruce Lee's philosophy too. Here are some good martial artists too look into.
MMA FIGHTER
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From what I've learned and experienced, there is nothing quite as effective for self defense as learning a kickboxing style coupled with an effective grappling technique.
You mean actual self-defense or you mean for in the ring sport fighting? Combat sports are WAY cool, bu they are not self-defense. They can often be used for self-defense, but their viability in "all settings" depends on how you personally define "all settings", which is dictated by the circles in which you walk.
A 9mm Beretta is a pretty reliable self-defense aid, and superior in most cases to expandable batons, black-jacks, pepper spray, arm-bars, or a good left hook. They have the distinct dis-advantage of being primarily lethal, but then you did say self-defense.
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You mean actual self-defense or you mean for in the ring sport fighting? Combat sports are WAY cool, bu they are not self-defense. They can often be used for self-defense, but their viability in "all settings" depends on how you personally define "all settings", which is dictated by the circles in which you walk.
A 9mm Beretta is a pretty reliable self-defense aid, and superior in most cases to expandable batons, black-jacks, pepper spray, arm-bars, or a good left hook. They have the distinct dis-advantage of being primarily lethal, but then you did say self-defense.
I think I'd rather have the arm-bar or the left hook in close fighting, than the gun. I believe I've actually seen studies that said that, at close range, the unarmed fighter is actually more likely to win than the one armed with the gun. I believe the distance was 17 feet. Inside that range, the gun is no longer effective, because of the difficulty of aiming and shooting at an opponent who is running and dodging at you. An adult running at full speed can cover 17 feet very, very quickly.
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fyi, Andrei Arlovski, a top 10 HW and former UFC champ eats a cooked paleo diet. He didn't use that term to describe his diet but he says he only eats meat, veggies and fruit. For breakfast, he eats a sirloin steak with 8 egg whites and 2 yolks, he specifically asks for no butter.
For reference, see: UFC All Access Andrei Arlovski
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I think I'd rather have the arm-bar or the left hook in close fighting, than the gun. I believe I've actually seen studies that said that, at close range, the unarmed fighter is actually more likely to win than the one armed with the gun. I believe the distance was 17 feet. Inside that range, the gun is no longer effective, because of the difficulty of aiming and shooting at an opponent who is running and dodging at you. An adult running at full speed can cover 17 feet very, very quickly.
The study(s) you are quoting said nothing of unarmed. They were talking abut a gun vs a knife (with the gun in the cops holster). Never take an arm-bar to a gun-fight...but a knife is actually a good idea.
Basic stats (they vary slightly from year to year because they up-date based on annual reports to police/hospitals) show several things (I'll find the most recent ASAP):
1) 95% of all gun-play happens within 6-9 feet.
2) Of the remaining 5%, 90% takes place within 12 feet.
3) You have roughly a 50% chance of survival if you are shot.
4) You have roughly a 30% chance of survival is you are stabbed/cut with a knife.
If you want self-defense, better get some gun & knife training to supplement your hand-to-hand. Further, that hand-to-hand better be aware of everything from eye jabs to biting to your opponents friends jumping when you're trying to apply that from behind triangle choke or pretty judo arm-bar.
Even Rickson Gracie learned that (again) when he did that now infamous clinic in Texas when they guy from Bussey's camp bit his ear and wouldn't let go while keeping his thumb pressed next to Rickson's eye (the "polite" eye gouge).
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Were talking about hand to hand combat not guns. You can carry a gun with you, but many public places and people won't feel comfortable with that.
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Were talking about hand to hand combat not guns. You can carry a gun with you, but many public places and people won't feel comfortable with that.
Actually, the title of the thread is "Ultimate Martial Arts" and in response to Spearhead's statement, "From what I've learned and experienced, there is nothing quite as effective for self defense as learning a kickboxing style coupled with an effective grappling technique", I asked:
You mean actual self-defense or you mean for in the ring sport fighting?
The conversation has flowed between various sub-topics, but with regard to the title of the thread and the use of the term "self-defense", weapons and multi-attackers and imperfect environments are a reality, whether anyone in certain places feels comfortable with that or not. MOST situations in which you may need to employ any self-defense knowledge/skill won't include a ring, a ref, a list of rules, and 2 opponents squaring off.
That said, I don't mean to imply that guns are the end of the topic. But lack of guns does not mean you're back to hand-to-hand. "Found" weapons (chair, belt, pen, butter knife, rock, tire iron, broken bottle...from lethal to non-lethal options) give you an edge over the unarmed man trying to take your wallet, mug a stranger, rape your girlfriend, or even the asshole at the bar or party who has had too much to drink and is giving you shit about eating raw meat.
Hand to hand is great for the ring, but if you want something that works outside of the ring, you'll want to adjust your thinking beyond kick-boxing and arm-bars.
Also of note: Many traditional "Martial Arts" encompass more than fighting, and may also include positive uses for what seem to be merely fighting techniques.
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The study(s) you are quoting said nothing of unarmed. They were talking abut a gun vs a knife (with the gun in the cops holster). Never take an arm-bar to a gun-fight...but a knife is actually a good idea.
Basic stats (they vary slightly from year to year because they up-date based on annual reports to police/hospitals) show several things (I'll find the most recent ASAP):
1) 95% of all gun-play happens within 6-9 feet.
2) Of the remaining 5%, 90% takes place within 12 feet.
3) You have roughly a 50% chance of survival if you are shot.
4) You have roughly a 30% chance of survival is you are stabbed/cut with a knife.
If you want self-defense, better get some gun & knife training to supplement your hand-to-hand. Further, that hand-to-hand better be aware of everything from eye jabs to biting to your opponents friends jumping when you're trying to apply that from behind triangle choke or pretty judo arm-bar.
Even Rickson Gracie learned that (again) when he did that now infamous clinic in Texas when they guy from Bussey's camp bit his ear and wouldn't let go while keeping his thumb pressed next to Rickson's eye (the "polite" eye gouge).
My martial arts system approves of and teaches biting. It's an integral part of any well-rounded self-defense system, in my opinion. I guarantee my system has about 10x the cheap low-down-dirty tactics of any other, bar none. He who cheats first and hardest, wins. It's a fight. It's not a tea party, unless it's a really rough tea party. LOL
Of course, the highest skill is to never to have to actually physically harm someone. However, it's nice to know some of this stuff, just in case.
As far as weapons training, yes, I have plenty of knife training. Not much gun, but my response to a gun would probably be to hide behind something or run away. If I can't do either of those, my opponent is probably pretty physically close to me, and subject to bites/kicks/knees/elbows/eye gouges/pressure point attacks, all simultaneously.
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My martial arts system approves of and teaches biting. It's an integral part of any well-rounded self-defense system, in my opinion. I guarantee my system has about 10x the cheap low-down-dirty tactics of any other, bar none. He who cheats first and hardest, wins. It's a fight. It's not a tea party, unless it's a really rough tea party. LOL
What system do you study?
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What system do you study?
W e i J i a T z u J a n M e n. I space it out like that because I don't want certain people googling the name and finding me posting about it here, never mind who. It's a Chinese/Tibetan system with a lot of Hindu, Mongolian, and Indonesian (Silat) influences and forms. Very old, the system is about 1000 years old, and many of the forms within it are many times older.
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I tried to google it but couldn't find anything. Is it spelled correctly? Is there a web-site for info?
Silat is some bad-ass shit. I met a guy from Indonesia a coupla years ago who has been in the US for a few years. Supposed to be some major silat guru (according to his pals, he never said a word about it - we just played Indonesian folk songs on guitar for a couple of hours at a party in the Indo-community around here). Trying to hunt him down for some lessons.
I like some of the kali stuff (when they aren't pillow fighting). Ever seen the Dog Brothers? Now THAT is some serious sparring.
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I tried to google it but couldn't find anything. Is it spelled correctly? Is there a web-site for info?
Silat is some bad-ass shit. I met a guy from Indonesia a coupla years ago who has been in the US for a few years. Supposed to be some major silat guru (according to his pals, he never said a word about it - we just played Indonesian folk songs on guitar for a couple of hours at a party in the Indo-community around here). Trying to hunt him down for some lessons.
You could also spell it Tzu instead of Tsu, Chan instead of Jan. No, there's no website. It's a family/monk system, quite secretive. There are people who teach an open-door version of it, but that's heavily watered-down. The last inheritor of the system just died about 2 months ago. Quite a bit of knowledge was lost with him. I stopped studying in 2003, but I had meant to start again this year, but then he died. Oh well.
Silat is the business. It's one of the most brutal arts in existence. I suspect that it started with some moves used to fight tigers in the jungle, based on some of the moves. I could be wrong.
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Regarding "Ninjutsu", I've been involved in the Bujinkan for about 13 years and I will second SkinnyDevil's motion that it's tough to find a good teacher these days. What Hatsumi teaches now (and what 99% of all Bujinkan-affiliated teachers teach) is highly stylized and at best marginally applicable to real world self defense. I believe it was Nagato sensei or Noguchi sensei who made short work of the BJJ guy years ago, but the average non-Japanese 10th dan+ would get mauled by even an amateur MMA fighter today. Few teachers even venture into the survival arts and stealth stuff anymore.
If you want a good ninjutsu teacher, you almost have to find someone who started 20+ years ago and who's dropped out of the Bujinkan. I'm lucky in that I've found just such a person. We train 2 or 3 times a week, indoors and out, and we train hard. We do a mix of stand-up fighting, ground fighting, unarmed vs. unarmed, armed vs. unarmed, and armed vs. armed. About half of our training time is sparring, of one sort or another. And we practice with a variety of weapons, though focusing on those we might encounter in modern life.
But anyway, I wish you the best of luck finding something that strikes your fancy.
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Go back to Judo!
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Two people I know who went near-Paleo after I gave them some information reported that they have developed a sixth sense for detecting people without seeing them.
Interesting.... That was said of me.. that you couldn't look at me without me knowing and looking back, even from behind. This was after I was eating 'paleo'(cooked meat though). I hadn't related it to anything until now.
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Interesting.... That was said of me.. that you couldn't look at me without me knowing and looking back, even from behind. This was after I was eating 'paleo'(cooked meat though). I hadn't related it to anything until now.
When 100% RPD something does happen, add some crap food and I lose it. I think it's a smell thing. Pheromones or something.
Also it seems RPDer's are more likely to be MMA than new agers.
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By 'new agers' you mean: Boxers, Judo Players, Greco-Roman and Freestyle Wrestlers?
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Go back to Judo!
I love Judo, but, to be honest, it's nothing more than amateur wrestling as it was always meant to be solely a sporty version of Ju-Jitsu. Compared to serious sports, such as Norse Wrestling or Savate , it's purely amateurish.
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Anybody here been able to train brazilian jiu jitsu and Muay Thai at an efficient manner by just eating animals?
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I'll probably be able to tell you fairly soon. I don't train Muay Thai, but I do Judo daily and that includes one 105min BJJ sparring session(white-belt rules) per week.
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I'm not a martial artist, but I like Bruce Lee's Taoist-oriented open-minded tinkering philosophy that he called Jeet Kune Do , which mirrored Paul K. Feyerabend's philosophy and has since been popularized and further expounded on by Nassim Taleb.
"To Lee, an endless process of trial and error was therefore preferable to establishing [one day's] intuition as an immutable law." (Bruce Lee's Taoist life lessons, http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2009/07/bruce-lees-taoist-life-lessons.html)
Interestingly, some claim that Taoism had many libertarian-type elements. Not being an expert on Taoism myself, I'll refrain from making the claim, but it is interesting that Dr. Taleb seems to have libertarian leanings. There seem to be many interesting connections between Paleo diet/lifestyle, Jeet Kune Do, Taoism, libertarianism, tinkering, and epistemocratic philosophy. There's even a blog that discusses many of these connected phenomena: "Healthcare Epistemocrat: interdisciplinary inquiries into the human condition via essays (+ ancestral fitness n=1 self-experimentation)," http://epistemocrat.blogspot.com/2009/08/ancestral-fitness-choice-architecture.html.
The tinkering philosophy of Jeet Kune Do also seems to be present, albeit in a more brutal form, in Mixed Martial Arts, and apparently with some positive results. I think I read somewhere in this forum that in the ten years or so of MMA tinkering, there has been greater advancement in martial arts knowledge than in the centuries of cerebral debates between various strict schools of martial arts that came before it.
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I think I read somewhere in this forum that in the ten years or so of MMA tinkering, there has been greater advancement in martial arts knowledge than in the centuries of cerebral debates between various strict schools of martial arts that came before it.
Open-door schools, sure. However, a fighter well-trained in a closed-door system would destroy every MMA fighter out there. MMA has weight classes. It's a sport. You want real fights? Let people strike the throat and eyes, bite, stomp the throat, etc. THAT'S fighting. Sport is sport. I'm not saying you can't use sport to train, but a real fight has more to do with training and presence of mind than speed or strength.
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I take Muay Thai and raw meat helps. In the past I could only go for an hour of Muay Thai but now I can go up to two before I have to rest.
The science of the eight limbs just got a lot better.
Do take note I've not been on this diet for long. :D
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The tinkering philosophy of Jeet Kune Do also seems to be present, albeit in a more brutal form, in Mixed Martial Arts, and apparently with some positive results.
You want brutal tinkering, go visit the Dog Brothers.
http://www.dogbrothers.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Zuj5jdY-k
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Open-door schools, sure. However, a fighter well-trained in a closed-door system would destroy every MMA fighter out there. MMA has weight classes. It's a sport. You want real fights? Let people strike the throat and eyes, bite, stomp the throat, etc. THAT'S fighting. Sport is sport. I'm not saying you can't use sport to train, but a real fight has more to do with training and presence of mind than speed or strength.
Right, but I was talking about advances in knowledge and I wasn't comparing MMA to street fighting, I was comparing it to restricted training and competition within various schools of martial arts/sports. They seem to be learning more by very open fighting between martial artists from a variety of schools, using whatever techniques they wish, than they did by restricting themselves to fighting only within a single school or two and not allowing. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm no expert, but this seems to be apparent even to an uneducated person like myself. There were assumptions made about which schools of martial arts would fare best in MMA and the actual results were apparently surprising to many.
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Right, but I was talking about advances in knowledge and I wasn't comparing MMA to street fighting, I was comparing it to restricted training and competition within various schools of martial arts/sports. They seem to be learning more by very open fighting between martial artists from a variety of schools, using whatever techniques they wish, than they did by restricting themselves to fighting only within a single school or two and not allowing. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm no expert, but this seems to be apparent even to an uneducated person like myself. There were assumptions made about which schools of martial arts would fare best in MMA and the actual results were apparently surprising to many.
Apples and oranges. I'm talking about legitimate fighting systems whose practitioners can easily beat the best streetfighters. You are talking about schools whose teachers were never taught more than the oversimplified basic moves, without much integration into real self-defense scenarios, and who cannot fight for squat. Basically, any school/system that would noticeably improve by learning something useful from current trends in MMA isn't worth much to begin with. :)
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You want brutal tinkering, go visit the Dog Brothers.
http://www.dogbrothers.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Zuj5jdY-k
Thanks, man. I wasn't actually looking for that stuff at the time, but that's pretty interesting. I'm partial to the Maori style (Mau rakau) because it's visually interesting, and to Maori culture in general. I'm not claiming it's the best or anything--I'll let the martial artists debate that amongst themselves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLvwvqcUF70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofybOAqLWZM
The Maori seem to be the only indigenous people who have managed to get back on top, or at least about equal with the modern folk. Maybe because of their fierceness. The Lakota held out for a long while, but were eventually subdued (though they claim they were never defeated, which is cool--love their spirit too and mean no disrespect).
Apples and oranges. I'm talking about legitimate fighting systems whose practitioners can easily beat the best streetfighters. You are talking about schools whose teachers were never taught more than the oversimplified basic moves, without much integration into real self-defense scenarios, and who cannot fight for squat. Basically, any school/system that would noticeably improve by learning something useful from current trends in MMA isn't worth much to begin with. :)
Yeah, man, I think we're talking about two different things, like you said.
Like the Lakota people, I'm less impressed by talk and more by action. If a martial arts system is good, let's see it win in fair competition in the MMA system or whatever system people choose. If they don't want to try it and actually compete, then I lose interest. When people make claims, I have no way of knowing if they're true or not until I see it with my own eyes.
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Being able to hold its own in MMA makes a martial art interesting, but I don't think I'd use that as a single criterion to judge a system's worthiness. The weakness of MMA is its rules and the surroundings in which it is generally done. One person fights one other person in an open area clear of debris, with rules set up to protect both fighters against groin shots, shots to the back of the head, throat shots, eye gouging, fish hooking, and probably various other things. Also, both combatants can fight knowing that neither is carrying a concealed weapon and may, at any moment, use it, and both can fight knowing that they aren't going to suddenly be attacked by three more people.
I think the idea of MMA is useful, though. Any good combative system teaches bodily alignment, striking, grappling, using space and surrounding obstacles, weapons of various types, aerobic and anaerobic fitness, and bodily conditioning. Until perhaps 1980 or 1985, ninjutsu, now represented by the Bujinkan organization, did all of these, although not anymore. Some martial arts schools excel in some of these areas, for instance judo and kyudo are wonderful teachers of alignment, and judo and BJJ good styles to train in for anaerobic fitness.
I think it's worthwhile to try out a lot of systems. Any one system has lots of holes, and as you try out others you can fill them, one at a time.
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Being able to hold its own in MMA makes a martial art interesting, but I don't think I'd use that as a single criterion to judge a system's worthiness.
Nor would I. Like I said, if someone has a different way of testing things that they think would be better, then by all means demonstrate it. I'm just not impressed by all-talk.
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...if someone has a different way of testing things that they think would be better, then by all means demonstrate it.
Best way I've found is sparring. My training partner/teacher and I spar almost every training session, and we often treat sparring as a way to experiment with different things. We've sparred in his home dojo, in fields with tall grass, in forests, on narrow bridges over streams, in crowded alleys with garbage all over, etc. Sparring is a very effective way to weed out bad combative techniques, you just need to be willing to sweat, bleed and nurture a few bruises.
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If sparring is superior to MMA, then someone should create a sparring competition to prove it and invite all comers. Otherwise, it's still just talk, sorry.
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If they cared enough to prove it, they might. But if they didn't feel like they had something to prove, or their priorities regarding family, work, etc. were such that being recognized as the world's greatest martial artist was low on the list, they probably wouldn't bother.
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If sparring is superior to MMA, then someone should create a sparring competition to prove it and invite all comers. Otherwise, it's still just talk, sorry.
I should point out here that the video I provided of the Dog Brothers is one such competition. It is also worth noting that they attempted to find audience with the UFC, who told them they were too extreme (the back-story & letter is available on their web-site). It's also worth noting that there are numerous competitions across the globe that don't have the press & coverage that UFC gets, but are just as valid.
I don't think anyone is saying sparring is "superior to" MMA events. But the point is valid that MMA events (from pancration to UFC, not to mention all the other combat sports available) are designed for a specific focus. Participation in UFC alone, for example, hardly proves who is the best fighter or whose system is superior. It only proves who is best when fighting under VERY specific conditions on THAT particular day.
But don't be fooled for a moment that just because a guy is good in a boxing ring, on a wrestling mat, or in a MMA cage, that he is necessarily prepared to deal with multi-attacker situations, or personal protection situations (guarding others), or a bad guy wielding a gun or knife, or even a one-on-one situation on a debris littered parking lot in the semi-dark of an urban night.
There will never be a single event best suited to test one's mettle. That's the beauty of diversity.
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...There will never be a single event best suited to test one's mettle. That's the beauty of diversity.
Here, here. The more, the merrier. That fits the philosophy of trial and error beautifully.
I wasn't advocating for MMA as a "perfect" medium for testing martial arts, that would contradict my point, which was that trial and error and actual doing produces more convincing results and more learning than just sitting around theorizing and talking or competing only against those who share a similar style/philosophy/art/etc. If there's a superior medium to MMA, then by all means promote it. If the UFC won't allow in the Dog Brothers, then perhaps the Dog Brothers could some day create their own competition and invite all comers, including people from the UFC. They would have to abide by the laws of whatever country they held the competition in, but if they felt that their current country is too restrictive they could always hold it in another country. There's often some nation somewhere willing to allow just about anything.
As for people not wanting to prove anything, that's fine too. I was only talking about advancing learning through trial and error, with more doing and less talking. This is what would interest me as an outsider. If someone's not interested in doing that, there's no law that says they have to.
As a side issue, one of the most difficult problems in martial arts competitions in which money is involved is cheating/fixing/corruption. I don't know how one could avoid that. It seems to be a catch-22, when money is involved there tends to be cheating, but without money the poorer potential competitors can't afford to participate.
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Well said.
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I spar in mma training. I'm not sure you guys are using all these words properly.
When it comes to "street fighting" or whatever you want to call it, that stuff is so random you can't really train much for it. Many a fight scene in movies is ended by one character happening to land near a blunt object, or get to the gun.
I would put all of my money on a top mma fighter against a street fighter though, because the top mma fighters are very gifted athletes and train for hours every day. That much training makes you so much quicker that even if the street fighter was going to try and use a tactic illegal in mma rules, like groin shots or biting, the mma fighter would have destroyed them with punches or kicks or grappling by then. Sometimes it's better to become good at a couple of things then allow everything. Muscle memory is one of the most important parts of any sport, and also fighting. The speed at which a top mma fighter would knock out a normal street fighter who exposes their chin for one second the wrong way, or would choke someone out on the ground who put themselves in the wrong position, would render illegal tactics useless.
In essence, the danger of illegal tactics locks in some of their poor usability. You can't "train" to kick someone in the groin, gouge their eyes, etc because your training partners would quickly either die, become unable to continue helping you train or decide you're not a very good friend. Just like with mma sparring, I can't through a full force punch or kick at someone's head very often, which is why punching bags and pads and mitts were developed.
In that perspective I think grappling is superior because you can actually perform the best grappling tactics in training, like chokes and joint locks. Thus you can perfect those techniques on a live opponent more then someone could perfect an eye gouge or bite.
My whole thesis here is that a perfected move is most times better then the freedom to do any move but not having perfected any of them. That's why I believe most top mma fighters would beat street fighters even in a strange location with things lying around to use.
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...You can't "train" to kick someone in the groin, gouge their eyes, etc because your training partners would quickly either die, become unable to continue helping you train or decide you're not a very good friend. ...
Spetsnaz troops were trained in such streetfighter techniques during the Soviet era (and I would think likely still are), and some of them did die during training, according to the retired Spetsnaz men in this program: http://www.spike.com/full-episode/green-beret-vs/32039
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I spar in mma training. I'm not sure you guys are using all these words properly.
When it comes to "street fighting" or whatever you want to call it, that stuff is so random you can't really train much for it. Many a fight scene in movies is ended by one character happening to land near a blunt object, or get to the gun.
I would put all of my money on a top mma fighter against a street fighter though, because the top mma fighters are very gifted athletes and train for hours every day. That much training makes you so much quicker that even if the street fighter was going to try and use a tactic illegal in mma rules, like groin shots or biting, the mma fighter would have destroyed them with punches or kicks or grappling by then. Sometimes it's better to become good at a couple of things then allow everything. Muscle memory is one of the most important parts of any sport, and also fighting. The speed at which a top mma fighter would knock out a normal street fighter who exposes their chin for one second the wrong way, or would choke someone out on the ground who put themselves in the wrong position, would render illegal tactics useless.
In essence, the danger of illegal tactics locks in some of their poor usability. You can't "train" to kick someone in the groin, gouge their eyes, etc because your training partners would quickly either die, become unable to continue helping you train or decide you're not a very good friend. Just like with mma sparring, I can't through a full force punch or kick at someone's head very often, which is why punching bags and pads and mitts were developed.
In that perspective I think grappling is superior because you can actually perform the best grappling tactics in training, like chokes and joint locks. Thus you can perfect those techniques on a live opponent more then someone could perfect an eye gouge or bite.
My whole thesis here is that a perfected move is most times better then the freedom to do any move but not having perfected any of them. That's why I believe most top mma fighters would beat street fighters even in a strange location with things lying around to use.
YOu are quite the comedian.
Yes, you can very much train the illegal and deadly techniques.
As to who would win, MMA or streetfighter, I agree that the MMA fighters would have a slight disadvantage.
As to who would win, MMA or real-deal Asian martial arts...please. It's not close. It's just laughable.
That's not to say that there's not a smooth gradient between them all. You can find people with a decent amount of experience in 2 or all 3. The best Asian martial artists dominate them all, though, if we're comparing the best in each area. If you don't know it, you haven't studied, and I will laugh at you. ROFL
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If someone is good at kicking*, it wouldn't be too hard to modify that to kicking someone in the balls. If someone's good at getting rear naked strangle*, well apart from being able to strangle them out anyway it wouldn't be too hard to modify it to a neck-breaking crank.
If someone's good at take-downs/throws* it wouldn't be too hard to throw someone on to their head, over a drop, into a wall or something. If someone's good at punching* it wouldn't be too hard to modify that to punching someone's nose in or whatever...
*In real-time combat-situations, e.g. MMA.
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If someone is good at kicking*, it wouldn't be too hard to modify that to kicking someone in the balls. ...
Hey, thanks for the idea! >D
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I'd like to restart martial arts after a very long time away from Judo(I was a green belt). I like Judo for the hefty exercixse involved(it's like wrestling), but I'd also like something more combat-based, these days.
I've heard lots of good things about Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, but have also heard of how Ninjutsu-practitioners(led by Hatsumi) beat them hollow in Japan in those trial-fights that the BJJ guys like to setup to "prove" the superiority of their art. I'm certainly not in favour of any too specialist martial arts like taekwondo(too focused on the legs) or self-defence(like aikido). I want to kick someone's butt!
I've also heard of Krav Magna but it sounds too Israeli-specialised or whatever.
Anyway, any recommendations/suggestions?
If your looking for something combat based I would highly reccomend Krav Maga. BJJ is fun to learn and spar but you state here that you want to kick someones butt (haha) then Krav would be your place to start. A lot of BJJ, cannot be applied to real life situations and personaly as someone who has taken classes in multible MMA styles, and as a female that walks the streets to one of the most dangerous cities in the United States, would never recomend them as self defence. Spetsnaz is ok as someone previously stated, but learning to throw an knife while back flipping out of a jeep is never going to be used by myself. Its combat training using weapons and taken to a level that most civilians will never go, where Krav Maga is based on disarming, neutralizing a threat, and avoiding injury mainly without weapon use or using nearby objects. Its hard to find a good Krav Maga instructor or school just due to the violence of technique but I promise you it is the most extreme work out I have ever had. If your going to learn something combat based this will teach you everything that you need to know. MMA isn't real combat applicable, ask anyone in the armed forces in the middle east whats taught and they will tell you Krav over any other. But don't get me wrong, Krav is not MMA, its not to be taken lightly or played with. This fighting style is extremely dangerous and I wouldn't recommend anyone that wants to learn for cage fighting/MMA due to accidental death. Learning this is the best thing that I've done for myself besides changing my diet!
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I think some day I may try learning martial arts. I would prefer a defensive style over a lethal style like Spetsnaz training, because I'd be looking to learn more about increasing confidence, discipline, survival skills, physical health and enjoyment than killing ability. I'm very impressed by the knowledge here. Much of it is beyond my current comprehension.
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I think some day I may try learning martial arts.
God made men. Colonel Samuel Colt made them equal.
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God made men. Colonel Samuel Colt made them equal.
LOL! Jokes like that are one reason why I like having you around, William.
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As to who would win, MMA or real-deal Asian martial arts...please. It's not close. It's just laughable.
That's not to say that there's not a smooth gradient between them all. You can find people with a decent amount of experience in 2 or all 3. The best Asian martial artists dominate them all, though, if we're comparing the best in each area. If you don't know it, you haven't studied, and I will laugh at you. ROFL
Here's a few videos I found straight away on youtube. Never have seen a video of an "Asian martial artist" beating an mma fighter. I'm confused as to what that means in the first place, many mma fighters are Asian, and many use Karate, TKD, Muay Thai etc...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlleDPgmDVM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlleDPgmDVM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCv8wClAC38 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCv8wClAC38)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6mMtHqXyYc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6mMtHqXyYc)
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Look, I'm not talking about strip-mall karate/taekwondo/etc.. I'm talking about arts like Tai chi, xing yi, ba gua, (though I'm not excluding karate/TKD/etc. either) etc. Granted, the lines get extremely blurry, but basically, I'm talking about family systems and monk systems. MMA is just a mish-mashed smorgasboard of oversimplified, crude versions of the real arts. A skilled practitioner of one of the "pure" family systems can easily defeat the biggest, most muscular, fastest, strongest MMA fighters.
My point is, a high-quality family system can defeat a low-quality mishmash of oversimplified arts, which is what MMA is today.
What's a high-quality family system? That's not easy for a newbie to find out. You usually need several years of training in a very average system to even get good enough to judge the skills of other practitioners well.
Also, most of the better systems don't let just anybody study. You usually have to do a few years of the basic stuff before being allowed to learn the real stuff, although there are some rare exceptions.
So, to sum up, if you study with the best in the world in all of the following: Muay Thai, Greco-Roman, boxing, sport TKD, etc., you are still not going to have the skills to defeat a high-level fighter in one of the better family systems.
To be fair, the best fighters in the family systems usually learn at least a little grappling, kicking, boxing, etc. The differences between the best systems are pretty small, once you get to the highest levels.
Meanwhile, though, I'd put myself against any of the MMA fighters in a no-holds-barred match, and maybe even an MMA-style bout, and I'm only about 140 pounds, and 5'8". It's not size/speed/strength, it's training. I am extremely fast, but that's not why I feel sure of my prowess. I was fast before I got the best of my training, but I wasn't nearly as good then.
I'd also put any MMA fighter against thousands of pot-bellied Chinese grandfathers who have taught high-level tai chi, ba gua, etc.. Those old guys, the better ones, could easily beat Ken Shamrock, et al.
If you don't believe it, you can fight me, or I can direct you to some of my fellow students, or I can point you to the parks in the bigger cities that have large Chinese populations, including New York, San Fran, and any city in China. Good karate and TKD systems are also quite badass, although not quite at the same level, I think.
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I started off in tradition northern kung fu. Learning forms, basic 12 Tan Tui, spear forms, etc. etc. I also learned some wing chun from a friend.
I started martial arts at age 13 at the http://www.chinesekungfucenter.com/
Very traditional, pretty much nothing but adults there since its not that entertaining to your average younger 10 and under kids. I payed about 40 bucks a month (pretty cheap). Becuase I was under 16. I went there for about 2 years. I always did tons of training at home. Because my shaolin classes were only 2 days a week.
I however, don't do kung fu forms anymore now at the age of 18. My martial arts growth was very similar to Bruce Lee's. His philosophy was hack away at what you see unessential. Simple is effective. Have a style of no style.
I must admit though. I built a marvelous foundation at the kung fu center. Holding horse and mountain climbing stances (also known as bow stances). Doing Tan Tui over and over repetitively. We did tons of frontal heel kicks in that class. Pretty much in all the forms. But in truth, the basics I learned were the most important things, and which I still use till this day.
By the way. The founder of that school was Grand Master Yin from Taiwan.
http://www.chinesekungfucenter.com/master.html
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I'm not against MMA-style training. What I think bugs me about it is that it's the same rules, all the time. Great fighters definitely spar with rules, but they mix it up in training a lot more, like "no punches, only grappling" for 2 or 3 minutes, then "no kicks", then "no hand techniques", then "only one hand", then "no hands, versus two opponents", etc. You mix it up, keep changing it.
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Here's a few videos I found straight away on youtube.
Sweet. I have an old VHS tape of those Gracie fights with Rorion Gracie doing the narration. GREAT stuff. I like when Rickson mauls the judo guy from Russia.
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I train at Hassett's jui jit su at 422 Delsea Drive (Rt. 47) Sewell, NJ 08080. I'm sure someone there or myself can demonstrate my techniques if you want to check it out.
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I train at Hassett's jui jit su at 422 Delsea Drive (Rt. 47) Sewell, NJ 08080. I'm sure someone there or myself can demonstrate my techniques if you want to check it out.
Is that a general invitation? :)
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Definitely. John Hassett has had many people from other schools come over.
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ahh that traditional martial arts vs mma debate.
we'll never know until a proper high ranking traditional martial artist squares off with fedor or someone similar. and even then it proves nothing.
i think its the artist not the art. and i think the person that will be most successful is the one which develops his own style which suits him. we all have strengths and weaknesses.
i also feel logic dicates that since fights in reality are brutal, direct and short that a simple and direct art would be the way to go. there's power in simplicity.
bruce lee had the right idea.
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there's power in simplicity.
bruce lee had the right idea.
:), i agree ;D
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ahh that traditional martial arts vs mma debate.
we'll never know until a proper high ranking traditional martial artist squares off with fedor or someone similar. and even then it proves nothing.
i think its the artist not the art. and i think the person that will be most successful is the one which develops his own style which suits him. we all have strengths and weaknesses.
i also feel logic dicates that since fights in reality are brutal, direct and short that a simple and direct art would be the way to go. there's power in simplicity.
bruce lee had the right idea.
Of course it's worth noting that Bruce's most famous book, "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do", is a mish-mash of sorts...kung fu, western boxing, wrestling, judo, fencing....
Just thought I'd stir the pot a tad.
===edit===
I wonder if Bruce Lee owned a hand gun? (stirring that pot a bit more)
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true skinnydevil,
but skinny devil, what he did is simplified those arts he used, take what is useful, discard what is useless, and create what is essentially your own is what he believed, he used only certain techniques he saw effective from those arts, in one of his books, there's a section on the pros and cons of various arts,
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yeah. his style was a mish mash of arts. but he took what was good from each art like scully said. and tried to simplify as much as possible
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Yeah, and I have no problem with that. Just referencing earlier critiques in this thread that MMA is a "mish-mash" (and thus not as valid as older arts).
I think one of Bruce's greatest observations was the utility of western fencing. It HUGELY impacted his thinking & fighting, but it is largely ignored by modern martial artists.
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Look, I'm not talking about strip-mall karate/taekwondo/etc.. I'm talking about arts like Tai chi, xing yi, ba gua, (though I'm not excluding karate/TKD/etc. either) etc. Granted, the lines get extremely blurry, but basically, I'm talking about family systems and monk systems. MMA is just a mish-mashed smorgasboard of oversimplified, crude versions of the real arts. A skilled practitioner of one of the "pure" family systems can easily defeat the biggest, most muscular, fastest, strongest MMA fighters.
. . . . .
Sounds like pure fantasy to me. Not even one of these guys has given in to the temptation of making a fortune in pro MMA?
Meanwhile, though, I'd put myself against any of the MMA fighters in a no-holds-barred match, and maybe even an MMA-style bout, and I'm only about 140 pounds, and 5'8". It's not size/speed/strength, it's training. I am extremely fast, but that's not why I feel sure of my prowess. I was fast before I got the best of my training, but I wasn't nearly as good then.
Why don't you enter an MMA competition then?
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I'm with Hans on this one.
While I think MMA fighters may feel their methods carry over into real life (to a certain extent they do, but not against multiple attackers, sharp objects, or guns, for example), I think many "traditional" martial artists (namely, those who study eastern arts) carry a false sense of security about their skills.
These veracity of these beliefs is easy to test, however.
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Sounds like pure fantasy to me. Not even one of these guys has given in to the temptation of making a fortune in pro MMA?
Why don't you enter an MMA competition then?
I offered him a chance to demonstrate his techniques at my gym. I'm just an amateur but I would gladly demonstrate my techniques with anyone who is willing.
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Anyone can be beat, that's the beauty of life. :)
When it comes to hand to hand combat, or anything really.
Learn whats effective discard what's ineffective. Simple as that.
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What you need to learn is effective killing techniques. Too many martial arts nowadays focus on competition style and mean nothing out in the streets when a guy pulls out a knife, or multiple opponents face you. I like pekiti tirsia, krav maga, any kali art, and muay thai. You will need some bjj though because ending up on the ground is inevitable. However, you dont need to be a black belt, a blue, or purple would take care of most opponents. I am a blue now and spar with any size opponents who are not bjj practitioners, some can be 300 lb, but it doesnt matter, it is all technique and moving fast.
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think one of Bruce's greatest observations was the utility of western fencing. It HUGELY impacted his thinking & fighting, but it is largely ignored by modern martial artists.
This is true! I forget his name but there was a well known karate (point) fighter who published a few how-to books. He mentions one of his main reasons for success was that he incorporated fencing foot work.
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This is true! I forget his name but there was a well known karate (point) fighter who published a few how-to books. He mentions one of his main reasons for success was that he incorporated fencing foot work.
Yeah, but in fencing and karate point fighting, the fighters move back and forth on a straight line and don't really move sideways a lot. In full-contact combat sports, sidewards movement is very important, so I could see problems with fencing footwork there.
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The handwork is more what Bruce drew from than the footwork, as far as sport fencing. However, non-sport fencing texts are available. Spanish fencing footwork is superb.
As an aside, Musashi was exposed to (& influenced by) Spanish fencing techniques.
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I'd like to restart martial arts after a very long time away from Judo(I was a green belt). I like Judo for the hefty exercixse involved(it's like wrestling), but I'd also like something more combat-based, these days.
I've heard lots of good things about Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, but have also heard of how Ninjutsu-practitioners(led by Hatsumi) beat them hollow in Japan in those trial-fights that the BJJ guys like to setup to "prove" the superiority of their art. I'm certainly not in favour of any too specialist martial arts like taekwondo(too focused on the legs) or self-defence(like aikido). I want to kick someone's butt!
I've also heard of Krav Magna but it sounds too Israeli-specialised or whatever.
Anyway, any recommendations/suggestions?
As for me if we study the origins of martial arts it has its roots related to religion.
Religious people see martial arts as their way to improve their mind and body unity which some call it perfection.
It's sad that today some forgot the origins of martial arts.
After all when we all get old the real martial arts is MARTIAL HEART.
Thanks!
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As for me if we study the origins of martial arts it has its roots related to religion.
I hear this said and have read it a thousand time.
I also vehemently dispute it's accuracy.
Religious institutions may have adopted martial practices for exercise or moving meditation or spiritual refinement or any of the other things one reads, but hardly invented martial arts. Humans fought long before they invented religion. Thinking humans refined what little technique they had long before they sat in lotus. Humans fashioned a pointy stick long before they fashioned an idol.
Perhaps the root of modern eastern-based martial arts had it's roots in religion, but modern eastern-based martial arts are hardly the whole of martial arts.
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Here's your cave man martial arts!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9jS80DwUKA
Anyone in CA who wants to check 'em out, tell Marc that Skinny Devil sent you.
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Here's your cave man martial arts!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9jS80DwUKA
LMAO!!! That shit's funny. :D ;D
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Hahaha! Funny is not the typical reaction, but hey....
It's fun (though painful). I highly recommend a similar experience for all everyone at least once in a lifetime.
Here ya go - interesting all the way thru, but if you're short on time, just zoom to the last 2 minutes or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML1OZCHixR0
This clip leaves out some crucial elements you get in the longer version....ape-men being driven from the water hole by another tribe; a leopard killing on of the ape-men; and then (after the epiphany of tool/weapons usage), killing a large animal for food and reclaiming the water hole by killing the leader of the opposing tribe.
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Interestingly the Dog Brothers call their principal strike the "caveman" ;D
Those guys are nuts. I've done sparring with the light kind of rattan sticks... It was painful enough. Huge bruises that took weeks to go away. These guys use the heavy version... crazy.
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Hahaha! Funny is not the typical reaction, but hey....
Oh yeah, dont get me wrong. I love it. It is such a boyish thing to be inspired by Conan to whack the shit out of eachother with heavy sticks. All boys should do this as a mandatory part of their schooling!
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Hans: Yeah, rattan hurts like hell. Worse than the split bamboo of shinai (though a good thrust with shinia will crack ribs...speaking from experience!). Try rolling up newspaper real tight and wrapping with duct tape. A tad more forgiving than rattan or oak, but a GREAT training tool!
Brother: In all seriousness, I think it should be a mandatory part of every child's education (or at least a lighter version). All of my kids engaged in this sort of thing growing up...even my daughter!