Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: spicegirl_0101 on March 21, 2012, 01:16:53 am
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Hello!
I just wanted to say hello, get the first post out of the way and ask some questions.
I've eaten a "clean" diet most of my adult life. I have been paleo for over a year. I found myself cooking my steaks and burgers super raw. I also kept leaning toward sashimi (don't eat much of it b/c of availability/cost). So, I googled and found this place! Yeah. :)
I'm still riding with training wheels, just eating meat that has been quickly seared. I cook things like kale and broccoli. I do make 'kraut when I carve out the time. I'd love to ferment more veggies. I feel concerned about eating raw cruciferous veggies with a thyroid issue (Hashimoto's).
I recently stopped eating eggs altogether (like them raw in coconut milk). I stopped b/c I read that in Robb Wolf's book that people with autoimmune issues should try going egg-free for 30 days.
Here come some questions. Are there any special considerations for people with autoimmune issues? Also, anyone have thoughts on eggs in regard to this? I wonder if raw would be ok, compared to cooked.
I look forward to hanging out here more and getting more and more into RAFs.
Thanks!
spicegirl
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Most people on RVAF diets do better when removing all auto-immune diseases from their diet via removing all cooked foods. They also prefer not eating raw veggies, even juiced ones, in this regard.
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Hi Tyler!
Thanks for your response. I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that most people with autoimmune are helped by sticking with raw veggies?
I eat lots of raw veggies, just certain ones I cook. I'm open though, especially to trying different approaches and seeing how they "feel" and how my body responds.
Thanks!
:)
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No, he's saying avoid raw veggies, stick with raw animal foods.
But If I were you I'd experiment with all raw foods, including raw veggies, including juiced and see what works for you.
But ditto on the cooked foods, remove anything from your system that is going to look like an invader. Maybe focus on easily digestible animals foods and eating actual raw thyroid along with other organs and glands from animals on their native diets.
I'm sure others will chime in on dealing with thyroid issues. But autoimmune business is tricky, you've got to be really gentle with your system, as supportive and nurturing as possible and also totally aware of your reactions to inputs, as I'm sure you know.
Welcome, read lots, experiment, don't let anyone intimidate you in to or out of therapies you might find helpful!
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Thanks, Let'sCO!
Yes, I am incredibly in touch with my body. It is wild. I know exactly when I've eaten something that doesn't vibe with it.
The good news is that I feel really good when I keep it clean. And, I'm very "in touch" in general b/c of this. I love that.
I do eat a lot of organic baby spring mix salads. They feel right, but other, tougher veggies just seem wrong for me to eat raw.
BTW, I PMed you about one of your other posts where you talked about eating lots of coconut. Do you just eat raw coconuts? I can't stand the oil, smells and tastes horrible to me (and i'm pretty tolerant of new tastes). I think fresh might work for me. Though, I keep my diet REALLY low carb. That def helps with the hashi's. Guess I can just try and see how it fits for me, but was curious.
Thanks and cheers!
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Strange! I didn't gots no PM from you, maybe you're not allowed to yet since you're a new member?? Not sure what that's about, I'd think it would let you know if that was not one of your privileges!?!
Anyway, yep, I buy the whole, young coconut (though I'm not opposed to mature, they're a pain to me to process though and wayyyy tougher to chew)
They sell the young ones for about $1.50ea here in MN and they're quite heavenly! If you've got a good coco knife, which means it's sturdy, strong metaled, and fairly sharp, all it should take is 4 quick whacks on the top in a square large enough to scoop out the insides and you've got yourself a sweet, decadent, nutrient rich treat. Drink or ferment the water, then scoop out the flesh with a strong spoon. Or you can blend the flesh with the liquid for a yum smoothie, if you can tolerate other fruits you can add them, but then you're beginning to sugar bomb yourself. Sugar is a problem for me, so I go easy on it always. And my guess is that it's probably not too welcome in your system either in large quantities.
I haven't had a coconut since last summer, since it is when it's 90F+ out that I really crave them cold from the fridge, but I would eat them year round if they were easily available and in my budget. $1.50ea is a steal though as I've seen the same brands in the co-ops for $6.99ea !?!?!?!
If you have trouble sourcing whole, young coconuts, or find it too much of a burden to process them, a distant second is the whole flesh which can be termed manna or butter, at health food stores. This will not likely be raw, and is not the most palatable stuff on the planet at room temp, but as far as nourishment goes, it's reasonable. Maybe think about starting a journal so others can benefit from your experiments and we can continue to discuss there!
EDIT: I just reread and saw you mention you keep it low carb, cool, then you might definitely consider making Kefir from the water of the fresh young coco's. Does your body like fermented foods?
My baby bro and sister both suffer from autoimmune stuffs and even though I'm sure a raw diet would cure them, their parents are unwilling to take cooked foods from their diet or drugs from their 'therapies', so would love to hear more about how raw foods works for you! Cheers a best wishes!
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raw egg yolks from healthy farm fresh eggs(read: better than "organic valley", from a local pasture etcc.) can be very healing, also it might benefit you to season your veggies and meat with kelp and dulse, which are high in iodine and other minerals which will be beneficial to your thyroid. cooking or fermenting most of your veggies is the way to go! makes them more digestible. also not going to extremes of any diet is excellent advice. if you are okay with some cooked veg then eat em, if they dont make you feel well then dont. if you crave more raw meat, eat more meat, if you want more fats try taking fatty fish or anything with high omega-3 to see if that isnt the reason you crave. trust your body and figure out what works best for you as an individual
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Hi Let'sCO!
First, I'm sorry to hear about your siblings issues with autoimmune. Must be frustrating to know there are healthier and gentler options than meds. Grr.
Well, when I dropped grains over a year ago and my body responded favorably. There's less attack on my thyroid. I could feel it pressing a bit, and talking felt "strained."
Believe it or not, I used to make coconut kefir from fresh young green coconuts about 10 years ago! I've been at this a while. :) I read about it in Body Ecology Diet. Even back then I was drawn to that diet for the simplicity the fermented veggies, and the sushimi, etc.
See you around!
sg
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Thanks Jessica,
That is pretty much the philosophy I follow, though, it is going to take me a bit to figure out some things. I feel supported here though.
sg
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I find that vitamin D is very helpful for autoimmune problems. Eating high-fat and low-carb is also very beneficial, as it supports the action of the vitamin D. I have several autoimmune problems that I use vitamin D for, it keeps them under control.
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Hi CK,
Thanks! I usually take at least 5000 iu of D per day, sometimes 10k.
And yes, I'm really drawn to the high-fat, low-carb. When I first started eating more red meat (about a year ago), I couldn't get enough ribeye steaks (very rare). I craved the fat, it was wild.
Love being here. Feels like home! :)
sg
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Hello,
Would love to hear more results of your experiments. Egg free is worth doing.
Remember that duck eggs are different from chicken eggs.
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the fat in a ribeye steak is a lot for a steak but still nothing. Try to get something like a big chunk of suet so you can really have some fat to munch on. Also raw butter is another fat source I use that has been going great for me but dairy is more controversial.
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I'd also recommend adding raw wild fish into your diet.
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Hey SG, just a thought. I assume your vitamins are in supplement form? A lot of times they are extracted with solvents like kerosene, ethanol or acetone. Supplements aren't ideal period, but may be ok for some people. However with something touchy like an autoimmune issue(s), might be worth considering as a possible problem. Green Pasture's Fermented Cod or Skate Liver oils are a whole food that is relatively unprocessed in comparison to vitamins and other fish oils (including all other cod liver oils). They are a great source of vitamin D and A. They're not cheap, but they last for several months at the recommended dosage and give a LOT more bang for the buck since you get other critical vitamins like k2 and myriad other compounds we don't even know much about. Cheers!
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Thanks Troll and Let'sCO!
Let'sCO - I'm on it. I do want some of the liver oils you mention. I also am pretty careful about my supplements, though I could probably be more so.
Troll - Thanks for the reminder about different types of eggs. Raw yolks don't bother me, though I'm not in love yet. :) I do enjoy raw fish very much and will get more into my diet. I'm a little frugal about it, but I do think it will pay off.
Started my day with a raw breakfast. Feeling good about it.
I have tallow (my local organic, grass fed/finished source supplies it). I'll have to see where I can get suet. Do you guys just eat it???
I have a question about raw organ meat. The local/organic is usually frozen. I only need a little bit at a time raw. Do you let it thaw a little and then cut some off?
Again, I feel so at home here. Thank you!!!
sg
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Tallow is just suet rendered so see if you can get the suet from the person you get the tallow from.
Frozen is not as good as raw. Dont worry about letting your meat stay out in the fridge for a while either. The fermented liver oils I would call a food not a supplement.
Check out eatwild.com to see if you can find a supplier for fresh meats.
I find the best way to get into the diet is to go cold turkey and eat only raw foods. Thats what I did and it worked for me. The longer you go without eating cooked foods the more you will forget about them. I dont even remember what it tastes like 6 months in and dont rave it at all. I love my living foods and no longer understand why people would put anything valuable to them in a fire including food. Fire destroys things.
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Thanks TrollOTD,
Yeah, I had a raw burger for lunch (hidden among cukes and lettuce for the work fridge). I cooked some pork for dinner (only b/c it was thawed) and didn't like it as well.
I'm not ready for anything other than beef and fish raw. IDK if I can eat raw poultry or pork. I just don't want to mess with that right now.
Thanks for the tips. Ordering Green Pastures CLO right now. :)
sg
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My meat right now is pretty much only beef and fish right now due to availability. I dont think its a caused me any problems yet. Even if you eat a lot of beef and think this isnt diverse enough, every fish is very nutritionally diverse and this should give you enough variety.
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TOTD,
Just a little report - today marks day three and I'm feeling great! I feel lighter and energetic. My thyroid is already less enlarged. I can tell by my voice (others wouldn't notice, it is easier to talk though!).
Funny thing is when I was at the market yesterday (there's a great all grass fed (and finished) market right in my town) I was considering a whole duck. I guess I'm moving right along!
I had beef tips today with some grass fed butter. Lovely!
Oh, and thought I'd share some funny irony - my new slow cooker came today (the company replaced the one I had that broke). I may still make bone broths, but just had to laugh when I got that.
Thanks for all the help getting started!
sg
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Just want to say a big thanks on the support that came from this thread and forum.
I'm a natural for this diet. I'm on day 6 and eating raw liver. Wow, I like it so much better than cooked!
I'm going to ferment some veggies (have done this off and on for years). Also will get some good eggs soon (they're here, just have to make it to that store).
:)
sg
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They also prefer not eating raw veggies, even juiced ones, in this regard.
No, he's saying avoid raw veggies, stick with raw animal foods.
Ah wah dis? That can't be what you mean, Tyler. Please explain--surely you don't mean to diss all veggies. Perhaps you mean temporarily while the immune system is hypersesensitized, right?
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Raw vegetables contain lots of antinutrients so are best avoided, well, at least the ones highest in antinutrients, anyway.
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Are there certain vegetables that have less anti-nutrients than others?
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In my opinion, vegetables are really something you have listen to your body as to whether they're right for you or not.
I do really well with some green veggies in my life. Less inflammation, faster healing of physical injury ie cuts heal faster.
This really applies to all food, but probably to a little greater extent with veggies.
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In my opinion, vegetables are really something you have listen to your body as to whether they're right for you or not.
I do really well with some green veggies in my life. Less inflammation, faster healing of physical injury ie cuts heal faster.
This really applies to all food, but probably to a little greater extent with veggies.
What veggies do you reccomend? Do you eat them in salads and in what amounts? I eat a bit of kim-chi and sauerkraut right now, havent ventured back into whole/fresh veggies yet.
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Raw vegetables contain lots of antinutrients so are best avoided, well, at least the ones highest in antinutrients, anyway.
Do you mean for everyone, or just those with hypersensitive immune systems?
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Do you mean for everyone, or just those with hypersensitive immune systems?
For everyone.
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For everyone.
Amen,
It may be a huge generalization, but I am beginning to believe that most vegetables may not be a necessary part of a healthy diet, at least for a large percentage of humankind.
Veggies ,in general, have always been overrated as a health food , and their supposed health benefits are mostly fabricated. I once believed otherwise and liked the idea of eating homemade sour kraut along with vegetable salads covered with olive oil.
It seemed healthy, but after months of experimenting with different kinds of cooked, fermented and raw vegetables without any improvements. I finally gave up.
I know not every one will have problems with eating vegetables as a part of an overall well balanced diet. There are some who may do just fine with eating large amounts of vegetables.
Some people seem have a mountain goats ability to handle veggies, but I believe there is only a limited health benefit from eating large amounts. Perhaps for people who eat cooked foods along with grains there are elements within some vegetation food that can balance out the negative elements of the standard diet.
Fiber, plant sterols, anti oxidants and other compounds may be beneficial in cleaning the gut and protecting from the damage caused by the metabolizing of non paleo foods, but if you are not eating toxic foods in the first place there should be no need to eat much vegetable matter to mitigate negative reactions and so called oxidation stress or whatever nonsense the vegetable advocates profess.
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I cant imagine though, that paleo man didnt eat vegetables. If he was hungry and saw some wild lettuce growing wouldnt he eat it? I know it would make me less hungry. Wouldnt that be the only criteria for what paleo man chose to eat and if so, wouldnt we be adapted to it?
I know that experience always trumps theory either way and I havent experimented enough with vegetables while on this diet to say I know anything about it through experience.
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That is the Instincto view.
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Troll you asked what veggies I eat, pretty much anything, but I eat them instinctively not because I have any real desire to (until I start smelling them, then I get excited, motivated, but the thought of them alone does little for me), I love the taste of animal foods, the meatiness and creaminess of them. Compared to the fibrous nature of raw veggies which don't do a lot for me. But having experimented with them for a long time I know a little vegetation in my diet pays dividends. I'm especially attracted to peppers, brassicas, but preferably wilder ones like field cress, also heirloom cabbage. Ginger is a big one, something strong in there that my body likes, garlic also occasionally. I like foraging in the warm months for totally wild edibles like dandelion and lamb's quarters, and other wild leafy greens. I eat them while I graze our cows, or gather them when I have spare time. Where we live has wonderful biodiversity and if you took advantage of seasonal forage, you could provide your whole summer's vegetable needs just from forage.
But I know people who say just coming in to physical contact with certain common vegetable plants brings harm to their skin, so really an individual journey.
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I cant imagine though, that paleo man didnt eat vegetables. If he was hungry and saw some wild lettuce growing wouldnt he eat it? I know it would make me less hungry. Wouldnt that be the only criteria for what paleo man chose to eat and if so, wouldnt we be adapted to it?
I know that experience always trumps theory either way and I havent experimented enough with vegetables while on this diet to say I know anything about it through experience.
My uncle is an experienced chief and student of anthropology, and he held the theory that hunter gatherer man would gorge themselves on animal foods after a kill, and would forage for plant foods between kills or if fresh meat wasn't available. Paleo man would eat what he could find in order to stave off hunger, but I doubt that a broccoli or lettuce patch would be his first choice.
By intermittently alternating between plant and animal foods, paleo man was able to survive environmental food shortages, and perhaps they developed certain adaptions to protect their offspring against harmfull elements in plant foods. It explains why so many people can live off of plant rich diets these days without becoming deathly ill. But that in no way proves that a diet rich in vegtible foods is in anyway the optimal diet of man. I see anecdotal evidence everyday of people grazing the store bought produce section, many of them don't look any better off than those who cruse the snack food isles.
Other issues with vegetables involve unnatural methods of production. I assume that many people on the paleo diet buy produce off of the local store shelf so you should be warned about quality issues. The soils are so depleted and contaminated that even "organic" vegetables are suspect. Even AV warns against modern toxins in organic greens. So if you are going to indulge then be cautious about the source.
My contention against vegetables is not from a dogmatically is it paleo or not stance. Its from a healing perspective, in which I have noticed that vegetables have a very limited ability to heal and rejuvenate, and for the most part people with damaged digestion often have trouble in handling the anti nutrient content. Vegetables in general are also so void of nutrition that they fill the gut with useless fiber that does nothing for healing and rebuilding a damaged being. The anti nutrients in many vegetables cause the immune system to exhaust itself trying to mitigate the toxic substances.
My advice is that if you are strong and healthy and don't have any issues with vegetables, then thats great, go ahead and include them as a part of a well balanced paleo diet, but if you are trying to heal from serious health problems, then I suggest you use caution when including vegetables foods because of their known negative effects.
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By intermittently alternating between plant and animal foods, paleo man was able to survive environmental food shortages, and perhaps they developed certain adaptions to protect their offspring against harmfull elements in plant foods. It explains why so many people can live off of plant rich diets these days without becoming deathly ill. But that in no way proves that a diet rich in vegtible foods is in anyway the optimal diet of man. I see anecdotal evidence everyday of people grazing the store bought produce section, many of them don't look any better off than those who cruse the snack food isles.
What you say about the likelihood of gorging on meat and eating from plant sources between hunts makes a lot of sense, and it's largely what several indigenous populations do to this day. I would, however, caution against judging health based on a person's appearance alone or based on what you see them buying at any given time. That guy picking out the best kale in the farmer's market could have downed an entire king size bag of Cheetos on his drive over. ;)
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Sometimes apearances are all we have to go on.
After many years of not only watching what people buy, but also talking with other health consious people and getting a broader perspective of what people actually do and how they live I have made many conclusions based on intuition and inspired by my observations.
This one guy Robby does a diet very close to cooked paleo, he is 25 years old and eats greens with every meal. He also eats a Lot of cooked mushrooms. He suffered from gout and kidney problems, but when I tried to explain about how the anti nutrients and cadmium levels in greens are hard on the kidneys, and that mushrooms have been known to aggravate gout, or that the cooked meat contains AGEs, he just, wouldn't take me seriously.
I have talked to farmers at the farmers market and else where who grow and eat tones of vegetables and many of them try to live healthy, but still many of the most ardent health freaks among them look less than vibrant, and many have health problems despite not eating much junk food.
I encourage people to look for signs of good health in people around them and make their own observations about what makes for good health. Human intuition can pick up on things that much of scientific inquiry often misses completely. Such as the fact that vegetables are not healthy for many people.
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An instructive exercise is to go to your local conventional supermarket, take note of what the people look like there, or even better your local super walmart, and then go to your local co-op if you have one. Really amazing to see the difference in appearance AND energy/aura. It's downright fascinating and really never gets old to me.
Also you can look at what people have in their carts. I'll see people at our co-ops with an entire cart of industrial foods....but don't worry, they're organic lol.
If you are really paying attention though, people's appearances are a map of their lifestyle, I learned this from animal tracking, but anyone who sits and observes can begin to notice the signs.
People who smoke have gray, lusterless skin, yellow teeth, stringy hair.
People who are obese tend to overload on carbs.
People with raging acne tend to live mostly on processed foods and high amounts of refined sugar.
Paleness is a big indicator too. People who are healthy tend to get out and get sun. Pale, pale skin in the warm months is a sign if internal emotional dis-ease. The sun is a direct-to-body supercharger and revitalizer.
Baldness tells us about how much grain someone eats.
Someone who looks horrid for their age, but has a basket full of fresh fruits and veggies can be guessed to be a vegan, who isn't getting the signal that their diet isn't providing everything their particular body needs.
All of this needs to be taken in context of course. If you are a good observer, and aware, you can totally start to profile people in a big way, almost to a creepy extent. But you need some background knowledge in health in order to connect the effects (people's appearances) with the causes. ie grains, sugar, smoking, etc.
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haha great observations, i have worked as a cashier at a health food store for years....so many overweight unhealthy folks come through for healthy candies and chocolates, sodas and icecreams, i just wanna shake em, and the vegans........oh the chubby men and pale wifes with tofurkey dogs and soy milk :(! its weird people who have the most money generally buy the healthiest foods, as if it is a luxury to have time to cook and be educated about diet ':(!
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I never undertood this whole antinutrient thing, what exactly is it? Can I getsome research on the bad effects of veggies?
as far as paleness goes I am pretty much as white as people get before being called albino. One thing I noticed after some time on this diet is that while I am still just as white, my skin is a lot more pink right now looks much healthier in my opinion. I think it means that my blood is circulating better and can thus be seen through my skin more.
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I also went through a healthy junk junk food phase. Drinking "healthy" organic sodas, organic fruit juices from concentrate, organic cookies and candies and all sorts of crap. My only rule was organic for a long time and it was just not good enough. Needless to say it caught up with me. What a pipe dream these processed organic foods are.