Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Raw Matt18 on November 12, 2014, 02:42:00 am
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ive been researching coconut oils and what I found was a lot of these oils aren't what they say they are. There is no legal definition of raw,un-refined,cold-pressed virgin. So im wondering if anyone knows a TRUE REAL coconut oil product I can buy?
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I've been pleased with both Tropical Traditions and First Quality International brands. If you want raw, the question to ask is How high a temperature does the oil reach during processing (such as centrifuging)?
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I am not convinced that superfoods such as coconut oil are any good at all. Far better to look at buying other types of animal or plant fat such as raw avocadoes, raw suet/marrow, raw durian etc. Also buying coconut oil makes one complicit in the global destruction of the environment as tropical jungles are being laid waste to make way for coconut plantations.
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How to make Cold Pressed Coconut Oil
How to Make Cold Pressed Coconut Oil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgYp6o0EOCE#ws)
It is quite easy to make, even our own Philippine government teaches anyone who wants to go into this business of making cold pressed coconut oil called virgin coconut oil.
We have a government agency in charge of the Coconut industry and disseminates technology http://www.pca.da.gov.ph/ (http://www.pca.da.gov.ph/)
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Yea I was planning on just replacing the coconut oil with a avocado a day until I find a respectable coconut oil brand i eat plenty of meat it's just so expensive i can easily eat 12 to 14 lbs of meat a week so with avocados they save some money,
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What about coconut, the nut? ;)
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Why not invest in some pastured pork belly or other super fatty animal foods? Animal fat is extremely healthy and always in season. Also organic dried coconut "smiles" seem to be pretty inexpensive, you can buy them in bulk, but I guess you may want to check the temp they are dried at.
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I do not use vco as food. yuck.
ive used vco for the vco detox.
i use vco for massage.
i use vco as a carrier oil for other oils such as clove oil and oregano oil.
you can also use vco as a vaginal lubricant.
Raw animal fats rule because they taste better, feel better and are more filling.
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Back to your original question, you bemoaned the fact that there is no "legal" definition of "raw, unrefined, cold-pressed virgin" used in coconut oil labels.
Sometimes a "legal" definition helps disguise a lie, such as if someone "legally" decided that raw meant any food heated under 165 degrees or some such nonsense. If you watch the coconut-oil production video that GS posted, you can see that raw does mean raw; the only "refining" was natural separation of the components of the coconut; there was no heat used in the pressing; and there was the impression that this was the virgin pressing of the grated coconut (even though the pulp bag does get repositioned and repressed several times, there was no separate collection of the first pressing). I don't think I'd go as far as to say the label wording is a scam.
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What about coconut, the nut? ;)
I imagine that on some meals you prefer more fat than meat, or vice versa. And this can be accomplished by simply eating the fattiest portions of the animal or fish that you're eating. the same can be said for using coconut oil. The oil can be used when pressed, vs. eating the whole coconut. I find it difficult to obtain enough fat from eating whole coconuts and even if I chew and swallow only the milk, there's still too much,,, maybe carbs for my liking.
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Any oil, no matter how raw they claim it is, is a processed food. Don't eat it.
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Any oil, no matter how raw they claim it is, is a processed food. Don't eat it.
why not eat it? Is your reasoning simply all processing is 'bad', or do you know something else?
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Most food processing are Neolithic and modern inventions, thus have been used for a very short time in our evolution compared to the duration generally needed for an adaptation. This means we are unlikely to be well adapted to them; in many cases an adaptation may not even be possible.
It’s so obvious… I’m amazed most here still don’t understand that, although it’s been discussed in details and at length many times. l)
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Saying something is so obvious I guess could convince the person saying this of his own beliefs. But again, show me the problem specifically with coconut oil. Please keep in mind that there are low temp ways to separate the oil without damage. To say that we are not adapted to coconut oil unless we eat the rest of the fibrous coconut itself seems a bit assumptive. But then you come from an instinct background. I have mentioned in previous post, that I see little difference in consuming coconut oil than you finding that you only want to trim off the fatty parts of the animal hanging in your fridge,, or for someone to chew on grass and spit out the fiber, or someone sucking the juice out of an orange, or spitting out the seeds in a cantaloupe or not eating the bone in a fish and so on. This all or nothing at all ( the taboo on processing) seems a little too doctrine orientated to me. And I agree, if heat, chemicals etc. were used, then yes, damage would occur and render the final product adulterated.
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Van, i think the point is that alimentary instinct is supposed, amongst other things, to regulate one's consumption of a specific food, to prevent one from over-eating (thus compromising digestion) or intoxicating oneself, especially when eating something known to be toxic at high doses (some mushrooms, roots,...).
In GCB's book "Manger Vrai" the author speaks of a person who once went on a wild-edible foraging walk with a guide and a group of people.The man stumbled upon some berries and, before trying them, asked the guide if they were edible. The guide wrongly answered yes, and so the man started putting some of the berries in his mouth. After eating a few berries, he found that the fruit's skin had turned nasty to the taste, but its juice was still palatable. He then had the idea to crush the berries with his tong on his pallet and only swallow the juice, then spit out what was left; Instead of chewing and swallowing the whole. In this way he could still feed on the berries, even though they had stopped being fully tasteful.
The story didn't end well, and the man was sent to the emergency room, having been poisoned by the berries, which where in reality a lot more toxic than what the guide had first claimed.
It is then understandable that eating a full coconut, while respecting the instinctive boundaries, is healthier than just eating its (processed) fat, since it's much harder to tell if one has had enough of it. Plus a lot of healthy stuff found in the juice and meat are left aside.
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I understand the significance of the poison berry story. And yet, I don't think it applies to coconut oil. If you eat it plain, there is a stop. And more than likely in any amount it's not going to harm you. In my experience the benefit far outweighs whatever risk one can come up with. And I emphasize again, that there are coconut oils that are mass produced using heat and chemicals and there are those that are Processed using extreme care to prevent oxidation and enzyme damage to the fats. So, again, I warn against doctrines. One needs to discover for themselves what works and what doesn't. for instance sometimes I like coconut oil, and sometimes I don't. And I don't eat it when i don't like it.
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Of course its clear that VCO is much more healthy than it's highly processed equivalents (heated, hydrogenated). And probably not as potentially toxic as compared to those berries, depending on the amount ingested. however it is still healthier to eat the whole nut than to eat it's fat only. There is some kind of "stop" signal to it, which is the feeling of having ingested enough oil, but it's not the same.
Hence the risk of over-eating it, meaning bad digestion, meaning poorer absorption of nutrients.
Also some people may find it unfortunate that all this perfectly good coconut water and meat may be thrown away in the process, cold pressed oil or not. Hopefully they leave it for the local fauna to enjoy.
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Any oil, no matter how raw they claim it is, is a processed food. Don't eat it.
I agree with this. I wish I would have thought of oils as harmful and off limits many years ago and forgone entertaining them as a food source at all.
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Please tell us/me of what side effects came from eating raw non rancid coconut oil from fresh coconuts. ( There's quite a difference in oils that are 'cold pressed' from dried coconut flakes). I'd like to learn about it. And maybe you might also include how you used it, and what you ate it with, if you remember. And if you were substituting animal fats for coconut oil, which is devoid of essential fatty acids,, and,,, if you were at the same time consuming other vegetable oils, like olive oil, or others. thanks
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Of course its clear that VCO is much more healthy than it's highly processed equivalents ... There is some kind of "stop" signal to it, which is the feeling of having ingested enough oil, but it's not the same.
I find a clear stop with good coconut oil, too, which has its own distinctive taste and smell. I challenge your statement that this is a different kind of stop because I think that the "feeling of having ingested enough oil" refers to satiety, or even fullness, not to a food-specific stop signal. You can still want more food, even when the coconut oil says, "Enough!"
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Ok, mostly for the sake of information.. I have this ongoing discussion with coconut oil suppliers,,, they say you don't need to refrigerate coconut oil. I emphatically say, 'oh yes you'. I tell them how I keep a small jar of it in my gym bag to apply to my leg... and how in a month that it has gone off, and smells rancid. The same applies to olive oil. I will go over to a friends house, and they will have a jar of olive oil in the kitchen. One whiff and I gag. The thing is, it goes bad day by day, and hence people just don't recognize it, plus they are mixing it with vinegar, or disguising it's taste by cooking etc. Once you open the jar and air gets to it, it's going bad. This is why I said there's such a difference when oil is made from dried coconut flakes, it has already started going bad. People say and write that it's got such a high amount of saturated fat that it won't go rancid.
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Coconut oil and oils in general are never satiating like raw animal fat(or cooked animal fat for that matter...) and my tendency would be to over eat oils and basically totally overload my system. Gallbladder attacks and liver issues were common as well as feeling generally unwell or less well then a diet rich in animal fats. I can even tell the difference between weeks I reach for butter and weeks I have access to animal fat, butter will eventually feel like there is some unfulfilled void, I don't ever get that with animal fat. It may be that butter also contains high amounts if certain minerals and that causes and imbalance and that is the void that is needing to be filled, where as animal fats do not. All I know is I wasted a lot of money and years of my life eating lesser quality foods by choosing refined oils over raw fats.
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Good, I understand what you're saying. I would have a real hard time to live on coconut oils without the majority of fats coming from animal. Having said that, and I'm sure you get this, balance is key... What I like about supplementing with c.o. is the extra energy the easily digestible oil offers, the variance in taste and texture, and i do think it does have some of the anti fungus, candida, virus properties people claim. I also think there's nothing like it for massages and dry skin. Again, I think it's the type of coc. oil one buys. Some are just awful thanks for getting back
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And yet, I don't think it applies to coconut oil. If you eat it plain, there is a stop.
Yes, why not? Cooked foods gives “stop” signals as well, but we can’t know if it’s when the proper amount has been eaten. It’s often late, after too much has been ingested.
And more than likely in any amount it's not going to harm you. In my experience the benefit far outweighs whatever risk one can come up with.
Perhaps, but perhaps not. Some people can eat a cooked meal once in a way without any noticeable reaction.
So, again, I warn against doctrines. One needs to discover for themselves what works and what doesn't.
It’s difficult and often impossible to discover for oneself what might harm us in the long run. So, it’s better to apply the precautionary principle, even if some processed foods could perhaps be completely harmless. Ronald J. Ziegler (once again...):
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With some foods, i tend to trust myself and learn. Otherwise,, I can show a reason to not eat just about any food on the planet, according to one person or another's belief system. that would include hybridizing of vega and fruit, the sugar in fruit, the pollution in fish, the atomic fallout in everything, the casein and bad calcium to mg. ratios in milk, the eating of eggs out of season, the high polyunsaturated oils in fish, the nightshades, the food combining rules, the eating of food not grown in your area, the eating and following a paleo type diet and its alienating potential to the people we live next to, cooking of any foods, drying of any foods, grinding of any foods, freezing of any foods, eating fermented foods, eating nuts or legumes including peanuts, eating meat that has even had vaccinations or drugs, eating meat from animals that have been castrated, eating meat from specially bred cows etc., drinking juice, veg. or fruit, eating after dark, eating more than one meal a day, eating more than two meals a day, drinking water or getting your fluids from what raw material you eat, drinking water with meals, taking supplements, naturally derived from food or not, ever using antibiotics, and the list goes on.
that is why I suggest we name what our experiences are to certain foods and practices and let that speak for itself. Or short of that simply state what your personal hesitation to eating or drinking something versus declaring it gospel and creating excessive concern.
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I find a clear stop with good coconut oil, too, which has its own distinctive taste and smell. I challenge your statement that this is a different kind of stop because I think that the "feeling of having ingested enough oil" refers to satiety, or even fullness, not to a food-specific stop signal. You can still want more food, even when the coconut oil says, "Enough!"
Sorry for the late answer, also I see other people have already given some part of an answer to your question.
To complete this I'll say eating oil, and in this case VCO, and feeling a "stop" after some time is pretty much the same as eating cane sugar and finding a "stop" to it.
I don't know how to describe this other than the feeling of having eaten enough sweet, in the case of cane sugar.
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JK, does that mean that we must eat the whole orange with the peel? And then, why not the leaves, bark, and wood of the orange tree? The shells of nuts? The bones with the marrow? And following your example, what about the sugar cane (plant) that cane sugar (boiled down cane juice) is made? May we not chew the juice and spit the fiber from that plant stalk?
I can follow your example in terms of the instinctotherapie dictates, which do define grinding as a form of undesirable processing, but as far as general discussion here, "raw" is the guiding principle, so we have to say "Yes" to the original poster: Yes, there are fresh, raw coconut oils on the market. Yes, it takes an asking questions and a certain amount of discernment to find a good one, as there is no standardization of the words on the label.
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Ok, maybe I should've been more clear on my stance.
Yes, raw,extra virgin coconut oil is much better than any other types of coconut oils. It's as healthy as an oil can get, I guess.
However, eating the coconut meat (where the oil is originally extracted from) is healthier, as it is more nutritious, and one can find a much clearer stop signal to it when the needs of the body are covered. Coconut oil has a much blander, constant taste. It's hard to tell when you've had enough of it. Except when you've had enough of that particular greasy taste. At least that's how it is for me.
I don't really get your point with those comparison. Is it because I said the whole food was healthier and more easily recognized and taken care of by the human's alimentary instinct? When I said "the whole food", I didn't mean the coconut : its meat, its juice, its shell. Its tree, its soil where the tree has grown, the entire planet, our solar system, etc...
In itself, the coconut meat fresh from the nut is already a "whole food", recognizable by our primitive instinct for this reason. The oil is a food altered -from it's original "meat" form- in a way that is possibly never naturally available in an environment where (ancient) homo evolved, so why should our alimentary instinct be capable of dosing our intake of the product properly?
Now, if you want to include coconut oil as a part of your diet, I have no problem with that. It's already 100 times better than hydrogenated margarine. It's healthy, nutritive compared to the rest. But if you can get real coconuts instead, this should be your first option, IMO.
As for the sugar cane, I have never tried any, but seeing that Orkos sells them I guess you can eat it the way you described or such.
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I don't really get your point with those comparison. Is it because I said the whole food was healthier and more easily recognized and taken care of by the human's alimentary instinct? When I said "the whole food", I didn't mean the coconut : its meat, its juice, its shell. Its tree, its soil where the tree has grown, the entire planet, our solar system, etc...
ROFL! Don’t mess with JK, he’s got nuclear weapons! ;D
As for the sugar cane, I have never tried any, but seeing that Orkos sells them I guess you can eat it the way you described or such.
Sugar cane juice is routinely extracted between the teeth in the tropics and I’ve done it often too, also long before knowing about raw paleo. You just can’t swallow the fiber (as there’s no way to swallow a coconut shell! ;)), so you have to spit it.
We’ve got to be a bit realistic… a theory being nothing more than an imperfect provisional tentative of modeling the nature!
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I've been pleased with both Tropical Traditions and First Quality International brands. If you want raw, the question to ask is How high a temperature does the oil reach during processing (such as centrifuging)?
from where do you buy First Quality International brand?
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First quality is in canada, just look them up online. I just bought a very good c.o. from wilderness family. probably the best I've ever gotten.
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Here's their website: http://virginoildecococreme.com/ (http://virginoildecococreme.com/).
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Here's their website: http://virginoildecococreme.com/ (http://virginoildecococreme.com/).
how do u order from them??
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I have ordered from Quality First using the phone number and a credit card, but
I just bought a very good c.o. from wilderness family. probably the best I've ever gotten.
Van knows his coconut oil, so you should probably take a look at http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/ (http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/). I'll be looking at them, too.
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I have ordered from Quality First using the phone number and a credit card, but
Van knows his coconut oil, so you should probably take a look at http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/ (http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/). I'll be looking at them, too.
you mean the wildernessfamily's coconut oil is a higher quality oil?
anybody tried the ''truly raw'' coconut oil AV always recommended: http://www.thaiorganiclife.com/product/virgin-coconut-oil-pure-raw/ (http://www.thaiorganiclife.com/product/virgin-coconut-oil-pure-raw/)
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you mean the wildernessfamily's coconut oil is a higher quality oil?
I didn't mean that and I didn't say that.
Frankly, I would have no way of comparing the "quality" of one oil over. Van said he liked that brand. My statement followed with the website of his recommendation, only because you seem unable to use a search engine for yourself, as was the case in finding Quality First's website and ordering method.
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thanks for the link re. the fermented oil from Thailand, will try it. Let us know if you do.
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There no one selling pure coconut oil in the market.
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I contacted the co. in thailand, seems like it might be something different/healthy, but they don't have distributers in US..
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Original living coconut and wilderness family naturals seem like best US companies.
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As mentioned I'd steer clear of wilderness family. That is the oil I just recently bought. One way to judge c.o. is to put some in the palms of clean hands, rub for a while till warm and smell. What I'm noticing now is that most smell like cheap buttered pop corn butter,,, nothing to do with fresh coconut.
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i guess the best thing is to press out the milk/cream from fresh mature coconut meat... best quality, you control everything(almost)
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very costly, time consuming, and then, full of carbs, if you want them.
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very costly, time consuming, and then, full of carbs, if you want them.
Don't you think you're overstating it? You can just blend up the fresh meat, strain the mix through a fine sieve, then let it sit in the fridge for a couple hours. The oil rises to the top and solidifies. Use a small knife to cut around the edges, and you have the oil.
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i guess the best thing is to press out the milk/cream from fresh mature coconut meat... best quality, you control everything(almost)
If you're not in a coconut-growing region, it's hard to learn about the treatment of these imports in terms of irradiation, mold inhibitors, and stuff like that. I seem to notice that dried coconut flakes are "fresher" (please allow me to say that) than the fresh meat I scrape out of an imported coconut. Sellers of dried coconut flakes explain how to make coconut milk from the flakes, and I have tried this and gotten an acceptable product, considering how "not really fresh" it is.
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Don't you think you're overstating it? You can just blend up the fresh meat, strain the mix through a fine sieve, then let it sit in the fridge for a couple hours. The oil rises to the top and solidifies. Use a small knife to cut around the edges, and you have the oil.
hmm, I'll have to try that. I've always just put the fresh meat through a juicer and used what came out. And never really enjoying the way I felt after using very much. I typically don't like blending foods (oxidation etc.) but will try this to see what happens. thanks At well over two dollars a coconut, I wonder how much oil I'll get?
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hmm, I'll have to try that. I've always just put the fresh meat through a juicer and used what came out. And never really enjoying the way I felt after using very much. I typically don't like blending foods (oxidation etc.) but will try this to see what happens. thanks At well over two dollars a coconut, I wonder how much oil I'll get?
I'm not sure, but I remember being surprised at how much I got. It's been literally 11 years since I discovered this by accident, and I only did it the one time. I generally don't eat the oil anymore, it speeds up my metabolism too much. I do brush my teeth with it.