Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: JaX on April 02, 2009, 03:40:17 am
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Do you liberally use salt or do you follow Loren Cordain's advice and stay away from it?
Experienced any benefits from adding it to food (better digestion, etc)?
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Rarely because I usually just eat meat and sometimes fruit. I put salt on the last batch of jerky I made.
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Well, a few like Lex have claimed that salt was essential(presumably a zero-carb requirement?). I've never felt a need for it. Though, once when I was doing raw zero-carb(and failing miserably) I was feeling so dehydrated despite drinking vast amounts of mineral water(and urinating it all out shortly after) that I added salt to the mineral-water I was drinking as that's supposed to hydrate the body more effectively than salt-free water. Didn't work, though, for me, that time.
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I had a period over a number of years when following the primal diet when I added no salt to my diet.
However, since adding it back in 3 or 4 years ago I've found that I suffer less digestive problems, no longer had such frequent periods of weakness/shakiness etc. I do suffer with adrenal problems which causes the body problems relating to salt regulation. So, for me, I seem to do much better with it!
I add a generous pinch of Celtic sea salt to all of my meals which are predominately made up of fatty cuts of beef or lamb with marrow, when available, and a few vegetable flavourings (parsley, garlic, onion...)
I also find I enjoy my meals much more WITH added salt but suppose this may be due to acquired taste or addiction.
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I had a period over a number of years when following the primal diet when I added no salt to my diet.
However, since adding it back in 3 or 4 years ago I've found that I suffer less digestive problems, no longer had such frequent periods of weakness/shakiness etc. I do suffer with adrenal problems which causes the body problems relating to salt regulation. So, for me, I seem to do much better with it!
I add a generous pinch of Celtic sea salt to all of my meals which are predominately made up of fatty cuts of beef or lamb with marrow, when available, and a few vegetable flavourings (parsley, garlic, onion...)
I also find I enjoy my meals much more WITH added salt but suppose this may be due to acquired taste or addiction.
ive recently been having some of the problems youve mentioned here and have begun to think i may have some (hyper) thyroid issues. i also consume little to know salt so your post here intrigues me...
do you (or anyone else) know in detail if and why salt is helpful with these symptoms?
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For the past 1+ year I've been eating raw paleo with zero salt. I drink coconuts and get hydration from fruits. I actually don't look for salt.
2 weeks ago when my son went for a checkup with a new doctor who is a raw weston price dieter, he recommended salt to my boy. My boy is a cooked food eater, he eats some raw meat with me.
So here I am the parent who needs to try out this salt thing because the doctor ordered it on my boy. I noticed the past 1 week I did a lot of salt on my meat, I didn't enjoy it. It felt like work and I felt blah. I can handle "some" minute quantities of salt, but not a lot of it. I did try lemons + salt on my oysters and that combination tastes good. But when I dip my oysters in vinegar, I don't like salt on it.
When I do partake in cooked meat, I think the salt helps somewhat. But when the meat is fully raw it seems really strange to put salt in it. I tried a salt rub on beef one time and I totally did not like it. My little girl likes dipping raw beef in the pools of blood that collect on the plate.
My theory is if you eat bloody meat and hydrating fruits, you get fully hydrated. If you must drink plain water, then you need salt with it because plain water is badly utilized. If I'm forced to drink water I squeeze lemon or calamansi and probably add raw honey to make juice.
See the Water Cure website to measure the amount of salt you need with the amount of plain water you drink. This is for water drinkers. http://www.watercure2.org/
For non-water drinkers like myself and barefoot and charlotte gerson, maybe we don't need salt. But I'm open to adjust. Maybe there is a combination of eating that requires salt and a combination of eating that does not need salt.
I did not notice any improvement in digestion when I add salt. I did notice I can eat more raw meat when I add a little salt.
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ive recently been having some of the problems youve mentioned here and have begun to think i may have some (hyper) thyroid issues. i also consume little to know salt so your post here intrigues me...
do you (or anyone else) know in detail if and why salt is helpful with these symptoms?
Lex has already answered this question here:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/andrew%27s-journal/msg9558/#msg9558
We need both sodium and chloride in the diet. Chloride is obviously part of HCl. And:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloride
"Chloride is a chemical the human body needs for metabolism (the process of turning food into energy). It also helps keep the body's acid-base balance. The amount of chloride in the blood is carefully controlled by the kidneys. Further reading:Renal chloride reabsorption
"Chloride ions have important physiological roles. For instance, in the central nervous system, the inhibitory action of glycine and some of the action of GABA relies on the entry of Cl- into specific neurons. Also, the chloride-bicarbonate exchanger biological transport protein relies on the chloride ion to increase the blood's capacity of carbon dioxide, in the form of the bicarbonate ion.
"The normal blood reference range of chloride for adults in most labs is 95 to 105 milliequivalents (mEq) per liter. The normal range may vary slightly from lab to lab. Normal ranges are usually shown next to your results in the lab report."
http://vitanetonline.com/forums/1/Thread/688
"Deficiency of chloride is rare. However, when it does occur, it results in a life threatening condition known as alkalosis, in which the blood becomes overly alkaline. A tedious balance between alkalinity and acidity is in constant flux, and must be vigilantly maintained throughout the entire body. Alkalosis may occur as a result of excessive loss of sodium, such as heavy sweating during endurance exercise, and in cases of prolonged vomiting and diarrhea. Symptoms include muscle weakness, loss of appetite, irritability, dehydration, and profound lethargy. Hypochloremia may result from water overload, wasting conditions, and extensive bodily burns with sequestration of extracellular fluids. In a situation in which infants were inadvertently fed chloride-deficient formula, many experienced failure to thrive, anorexia, and weakness in their first year of life.3"
For people who eat no salt, plant, or seaweed matter, getting enough chloride can be very difficult. Whereas sodium is found all over. Also, sea salt has magnesium and other trace minerals too. Thus, it is not some poison in reasonable quantities (which depend on activity level).
I sweat hard at a minimum of 1 hour a day 3 days a week practicing martial arts. A moderate amount of naturally occurring sodium, potassium and chloride is absolutely necessary for superior health.
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I started adding salt back into my diet when someone receommeded that it helped them with night time muscle cramps which I was experiencing as well. It did seem to help but to be truthful I have no idea whether the cramps were just a phase of adjustment or whether the salt did the trick.
I find I like the taste of salt but not nearly as much as I did when eating cooked food or especially grains. I think I've calculated that I add between 1 and 1 1/2 grams of salt to my food each day but then often skip a day or two - especially the day or so after I've eaten out and the steaks were over seasoned (sometimes to the point of being inedible and I have to send them back) which is common in restruants. It seems from my experience that I must need some salt and my actual usage is driven by need. One gram per day isn't much but it fully satisfys me on most occasions, and I find I don't even want that if I've had too much salt at a previous meal.
Never had digestive problems, though Dr. Barry Groves believes that salt is an important source of the chloride necessary for our bodies to make hydrochloric acid digestive juices. I suppose the need for added salt depends on other sources for chloride that you might consume. I would expect that those consuming raw sea foods would naturally get some salt in their diets directlly from their food. If I remember correctly, Steffannson indicated that the Inuit drank brackish water which contains some salt and he believed that this was important to their health.
I've cut out all fruits and especially their juices, as well as all plant based fats and oils from my diet and my health has been much the better for it. During my vegan years I believed these foods were critical for health. The success of my current way of eating has now lead me to believe quite the opposite. I think that our belief in the need for these foods is driven by custom, culture, and early eduction by parents, family, and politically correct do gooders. Unfortunately these can be difficult if not impossible influences to overcome.
For the past 3 or 4 years my only beverage has been water. I drink freely when thirsty and then drink until fully satisfied. I pay no attention whatever to whether I'm drinking before, after, or during meals and let thirst be the driver. I have never experienced a problem.
Lex
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There are, of course, plenty of natural salts within raw foods, so, IMO, sea-salt/rock-salt is unnecessary.
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There are, of course, plenty of natural salts within raw foods, so, IMO, sea-salt/rock-salt is unnecessary.
Chloride is not so easily found in foods. Which raw animal foods provide ample chloride? And just to be clear, sea salt is about 84% sodium chloride. For people eating zero carb, as well as people getting heavy duty exercise or living in a hot climate, extra sources of this electrolyte may well indeed be necessary.
http://westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/mineralprimer.html
"Chloride is widely distributed in the body in ionic form, in balance with sodium or potassium. It helps regulate the correct acid-alkaline balance in the blood and the passage of fluids across cell membranes. It is needed for the production of hydrochloric acid and hence for protein digestion. It also activates the production of amylase enzymes needed for carbohydrate digestion. Chloride is also essential to proper growth and functioning of the brain. The most important source of chloride is salt, as only traces are found in most other foods. Lacto-fermented beverages and bone broths both provide easily assimilated chloride. Other sources include celery and coconut."
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If it's distributed throughout the body does that not suggest that consuming bodies (flesh) you would consume chloride?
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Well, a few like Lex have claimed that salt was essential(presumably a zero-carb requirement?). I've never felt a need for it. Though, once when I was doing raw zero-carb(and failing miserably) I was feeling so dehydrated despite drinking vast amounts of mineral water(and urinating it all out shortly after) that I added salt to the mineral-water I was drinking as that's supposed to hydrate the body more effectively than salt-free water. Didn't work, though, for me, that time.
You never mentioned how you made up your zero-carb affair - and what pray was your feeling of being dehydrated (I do not have to urinat shortly after - but this may be the ionized concoction)? What was your raw paleo answer to not feeling miserably dehydrated?
It is brain taking...
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If it's distributed throughout the body does that not suggest that consuming bodies (flesh) you would consume chloride?
I don't know, does it? I provided at least some sort of evidence that chloride is not so easily found in foods This jibes with what Michael and Lex noted. I am asking for evidence to back up the claim that raw foods have enough chloride for proper functioning. I can't find this info within the limited search time I have spent looking for it. I would guess that blood might have a good amount, but blood is hard to find. But then again, this is a guess.
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I would guess that blood might have a good amount, but blood is hard to find. But then again, this is a guess.
From what I understand the majority of the ionic forms of sodium and potassium chlorides are in solution in the blood. Our slaughter process removes as much blood as possible and this may well be why some of us find adding a bit of salt to our diet helpful. Possibly if we consumed a significant amount of blood as part of our diet we wouldn't desire the externally added salt at all. This idea seems to fit with my personal desire for salt. When I've had sufficient salt then I don't want it added to my daily food for several days.
Lex
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We need the salt because our meat has been drained of blood. (Unless you have a fresh kill in front of you.) This makes sense to me now after reading these posts.
It also makes sense to me because when I get a cut, I like the salty taste of the blood. (Even though people would tell me not to lick my wounds as a kid.) I guess it was all perfectly natural.
I'm gonna start using a little salt on my meat now. Thanks Lex.
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Does sweat need to be salty?
Adding salt to my meat mix did nothing for my cramps when i went ZC. It's just an adjustment thing and lasts a couple of months.
I dont think its that important as ive been labouring all day in 40 degree heat with overalls and full face respirator and do an afternoon workout salt free.
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I just asked my ranch lady if I could get some beef blood. She said she'd have to get back to me, as no one has ever asked! Blood sausages are not that uncommon, I would think. But then again, I have a good vintage and may be out of the modern loop.
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Does sweat need to be salty?
Adding salt to my meat mix did nothing for my cramps when i went ZC. It's just an adjustment thing and lasts a couple of months.
I dont think its that important as ive been labouring all day in 40 degree heat with overalls and full face respirator and do an afternoon workout salt free.
But haven't you had problems with muscle cramping? Could be an individual thing too, I suppose.
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i'd like to add here 1 thing that comes to mind:
salt comes, initially (even rock salt), from the ocean
in the sea, salt is always dissolved
therefore
the most natural way to take salt is to have it dissolved in water -- such as making a brine w/ deionzed water
personally i make such a brine by adding to deionized tap water the right amount of hawaiian sea salt blended w/ red clay (for a marinade or meat dressing) or blended w/ black volcanic lava (for drinking plain water)
why sea salt & not rock salt?
sea salt contains volatile elements that have long dried/died out from rock salt
1 advantage i've observed:
if i add dry salt crystals straight to my food (= raw meat), after a few days of such practice i start getting edema in my legs or face
if i add the above-mentioned brine (oftentimes mixed w/ lemon juice) to my food, i enjoy the feasts & have no such edematic after-effect
[incidentally, fyi, to evaluate my experience, lemon being anaionic, is the very only type of fruit i've put in my mouth since august 08]
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I don't know, does it? I provided at least some sort of evidence that chloride is not so easily found in foods This jibes with what Michael and Lex noted. I am asking for evidence to back up the claim that raw foods have enough chloride for proper functioning. I can't find this info within the limited search time I have spent looking for it. I would guess that blood might have a good amount, but blood is hard to find. But then again, this is a guess.
Raw Kyle made a rather obvious point. While chloride is claimed to mostly come from plant-sources(according to biased vegan-leaning nutrition websites(note how they very rarely mention animal foods as a source UNLESS it simply can't be found in plant-food), it should be noted that we eat meats from animals raised on all sorts of plant-foods, so that their meat should have plenty of chloride in them.Plus, raw meats are often washed in chlorinated water before sale.
The argument re blood isn't too convincing. I mean, if one is eating raw liver(as opposed to specially dessicated liver), then there's always some blood in the liver(often huge amounts). Also, while the blood is almost completely(?) leached out of meat via kosher/halal practices, normal meat-industry standards do not require such blood-draining methods(otherwise why is it so easy to get hold of bloody, juicy steaks in restaurants, grassfed or grainfed?).
Re salt:- I tend to get a sort of toxic minor shock in my mouth when I eat more than incredibly minute amounts of salt, a bit like what I now sometimes experience after eating too much raw honeycomb, but much sharper and sudden in effect. I definitely do badly with salt if I keep on using it.
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You never mentioned how you made up your zero-carb affair - and what pray was your feeling of being dehydrated (I do not have to urinat shortly after - but this may be the ionized concoction)? What was your raw paleo answer to not feeling miserably dehydrated?
It is brain taking...
I simply did all the right things re eating plenty of raw animal fat etc., during my 2(or 3?0 raw zero-carb trials. As regards the dehydration, it does sound strange given my huge water-intake, but I was suffering in all sorts of different ways, so my body was clearly telling me to back off. It was raw organic fruit which did the trick, ultimately. Same goes for raw dairy, by the way - it also never quenched my thirst, during the 2 experiments when I tried it again to see if I'd become immune to raw dairy like some primal dieters pretended to claim.
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Re salt:- I tend to get a sort of toxic minor shock in my mouth when I eat more than incredibly minute amounts of salt, a bit like what I now sometimes experience after eating too much raw honeycomb, but much sharper and sudden in effect. I definitely do badly with salt if I keep on using it.
i actually tried eating a pinch of salt with my beef yesterday (haven't had any salt in at least 4 months) and i did notice that my tongue went kind of numb. not completely numb but i could definitely notice something different. no other problems though. anyone else experience this? also, i seem to have lost the taste for salt; it didn't taste nearly as good as when i eat beef alone
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My point was simply that it's a strange argument to say that we need external chloride to store in our flesh and we cannot get this salt from eating flesh of animals who have the same requirements of chloride storage.
But ya there is no blood on sold meat. Anything left is just a little bit of blood watered down by lymph fluid.
I'm just pointing out that if you could actually eat the whole animal there would be no need for external salt supplementation.
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One last thing: People who swim/surf in the ocean are absorbing sea salt through their semi permeable skin. Those folks may not need added salt. Also, those of us who are island dwellers by ancestry, yet landlocked presently may need more salt, just as we need more iodine, as that is what we have adapted to. Seaweed and fish have salts in them. To each his own on this, just like zero carb, I say.
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I simply did all the right things re eating plenty of raw animal fat etc., during my 2(or 3?0 raw zero-carb trials. As regards the dehydration, it does sound strange given my huge water-intake, but I was suffering in all sorts of different ways, so my body was clearly telling me to back off. It was raw organic fruit which did the trick, ultimately. Same goes for raw dairy, by the way - it also never quenched my thrist, during the 2 experiments when I tried it again to see if I'd become immune to raw dairy like some primal dieters pretended to claim.
I find it that fruits especially those high in sugar dehydrate me a lot.
When I'm very low in carbs I usually drink very little. But there has to be a balance between protein/fat. Too much or too little fat makes me very thirsty after a meat meal.
How many carbs do you need per day to avoid these bad effects? Do you just eat 1-2 pieces of fruit+meat/organs daily or do you also eat raw vegetables?
The occasional days when you eat no carbs, do you immediately feel some bad effects or does it take longer on zero carb before you become dehydrated etc (btw is dehydration the only problem you run into on ZC?)
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My usual routine is to eat only meats for 2-4 days at a time, and then to have a sizeable amount of fruit on the 2nd to 4th day, rather than just 1-2 pieces every single day(I don't often eat large fruit, it's mainly berries(blueberries/raspberries/strawberries) or cherries. There are also times when I'm forced to eat raw fruit only for a few days when good-quality raw animal food is for some reason unavailable(such as has happened, occasionally, while on holiday etc.) I also eat raw vegetables(radishes a few times each year, a bunch of carrots once or twice a year,samphire(eaten quite frequently over a 1 to 3 month period, and the occasional salad with raw apple-cider vinegar when visiting my family).Oh, and I eat the bits of seaweed I get when I buy my raw mussels.
Initially, when I try raw zero-carb, I get great benefits re increased levels of concentration/alertness(though nothing else). This 1 good effect lasts for c.2 weeks. After 2 weeks, I start getting sharp hunger-pangs(which are not sated by however much raw meats I eat, only sated by eating raw carbs). If I continue avoiding raw plant-food after that point, that's when I start getting extremely dehydrated(no matter how much water I drink- the water just gets quickly urinated out without being absorbed)- I also get a total collapse in appetite, so that eating my raw meat/fat becomes almost unbearable, having to force myself to eat even tiny amounts.My heart-rate goes through the roof and I feel like I'm on my death-bed
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My usual routine is to eat only meats for 2-4 days at a time, and then to have a sizeable amount of fruit on the 2nd to 4th day, rather than just 1-2 pieces every single day(I don't often eat large fruit, it's mainly berries(blueberries/raspberries/strawberries) or cherries. There are also times when I'm forced to eat raw fruit only for a few days when good-quality raw animal food is for some reason unavailable(such as has happened, occasionally, while on holiday etc.) I also eat raw vegetables(radishes a few times each year, a bunch of carrots once or twice a year,samphire(eaten quite frequently over a 1 to 3 month period, and the occasional salad with raw apple-cider vinegar when visiting my family).Oh, and I eat the bits of seaweed I get when I buy my raw mussels.
Initially, when I try raw zero-carb, I get great benefits re increased levels of concentration/alertness(though nothing else). This 1 good effect lasts for c.2 weeks. After 2 weeks, I start getting sharp hunger-pangs(which are not sated by however much raw meats I eat, only sated by eating raw carbs). If I continue avoiding raw plant-food after that point, that's when I start getting extremely dehydrated(no matter how much water I drink- the water just gets quickly urinated out without being absorbed)- I also get a total collapse in appetite, so that eating my raw meat/fat becomes almost unbearable, having to force myself to eat even tiny amounts.My heart-rate goes through the roof and I feel like I'm on my death-bed
Very interesting Tyler! Thanks for sharing
I too get rapid heart beat after too long on zero carb (1 week). At some point it's like my whole body including digestion slows down and doesn't flow as well. I start feeling heavier and slightly more bloated, no matter what the ratio of fat/protein. I then start finding meat less and less appetizing and it doesn't digest so well. I start craving low-density foods which digest fast and easy (I don't crave sugar in particular I should mention, just something that takes less energy than meat to digest). I also experience heart palpitations.
I think it's related to hormones, cortisol/adrenalin, which rise on zero carb. Maybe overall lowered metabolism too.
Maybe the paleo hunter was ZC longer periods than us, but he sure didn't live in the same environment as the present, exercised more, got more sun, and, wasn't raised on industrial/processed foods from the beginning of life.
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I'd actually like to hear if some long time zero carbers went though the same symptoms in the beginning of ZC and if it went away or changed.
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My heart-rate goes through the roof and I feel like I'm on my death-bed
If you are peeing water strait out again and your heart-rate goes through the roof then this must have some thing to do with a mineral disbalance. Why do you think carbs are the answer? You should be able to notice if you feel bloated or any other symptoms?
Nicola
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If you are peeing water strait out again and your heart-rate goes through the roof then this must have some thing to do with a mineral disbalance. Why do you think carbs are the answer? You should be able to notice if you feel bloated or any other symptoms?
Nicola
What about when one eats high quality organs as well (such as liver, kidneys, heart) which are full of minerals?
I have tried using different salts and it didn't help with my rapid heart beat and the very vivid/disturbing dreams I experience when I am ZC for longer time. If you are suggesting taking Magnesium/Ca/mineral supplements when on ZC then it's not really an optimal diet in my view. A good diet should work without the use of supplements as crutches.
I've also noticed many zero carbers have very black circles under the eyes. I tend to think the problems some people experience on long term ZC are due to hormone levels.
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If you are peeing water strait out again and your heart-rate goes through the roof then this must have some thing to do with a mineral disbalance. Why do you think carbs are the answer? You should be able to notice if you feel bloated or any other symptoms?
Nicola
I'd already been eating very mineral-rich raw organ-meats, so mineral-deficiency couldn't possibly be the answer. Craig once suggested that people with adrenal-related issues might have problems with RZC. I used to have adrenal-related issues(which went away by the 2nd time I went RZC, but it's possible that my adrenal glands were still a bit weak, despite the healing).
But, most likely, it's just a case of different physiology not adapted to zero-carb etc.
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I'd already been eating very mineral-rich raw organ-meats, so mineral-deficiency couldn't possibly be the answer. Craig once suggested that people with adrenal-related issues might have problems with RZC. I used to have adrenal-related issues(which went away by the 2nd time I went RZC, but it's possible that my adrenal glands were still a bit weak, despite the healing).
But, most likely, it's just a case of different physiology not adapted to zero-carb etc.
What I can not understand is that the zero carb members on Charle's forum do not mention any problem of feeling dehydrated. The next thought was digestion; cooked vs. raw? Charles mentioned again today to eat fat in the warm weather and not drink lots of cold water and eat salad.
Seeker mentioned raw meat feeling heavy and not moving threw - again the other zero carb members (cooked meat) do not mention this.
Adrenals and stomach acid - digestion/metabolism is all hooked together.
Lex has never reported of any problems, eats raw zero carb and lives in a warm climate.
Hydration, perhaps we can find out more?
Nicola
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Perhaps it's just that the cooked-zero-carbers are less honest than RAFers.
As regards the notion of eating fat in hot weather, that's ridiculous. I find, for example, that eating lots of raw animal fat/meat, while effective in winter re heating up the body, is a really bad idea in summer - so, in the summer, I tend to eat more raw fish/shellfish than in winter, as well as adding in
slightly more raw fruit/veg and lowering the amounts of meat/fat I eat, doing more fast-days etc. If I eat large amounts of raw animal fat/meat in the summer, I just sweat like a pig.
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Perhaps it's just that the cooked-zero-carbers are less honest than RAFers.
As regards the notion of eating fat in hot weather, that's ridiculous. I find, for example, that eating lots of raw animal fat/meat, while effective in winter re heating up the body, is a really bad idea in summer - so, in the summer, I tend to eat more raw fish/shellfish than in winter, as well as adding in
slightly more raw fruit/veg and lowering the amounts of meat/fat I eat, doing more fast-days etc. If I eat large amounts of raw animal fat/meat in the summer, I just sweat like a pig.
???
You mentioned organ meat; didn't you eat muscle meat every day - perhaps that is the key? Those other zerocarb members on Charle's forum are not eating organs.
I am not so shore about the fat - if we look at Charles and know that he does a lot of exercise what can we say?
Nicola
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???
You mentioned organ meat; didn't you eat muscle meat every day - perhaps that is the key? Those other zerocarb members on Charle's forum are not eating organs.
I am not so shore about the fat - if we look at Charles and know that he does a lot of exercise what can we say?
Nicola
The trouble is that other RAFers have also mentioned becoming too hot after eating too much meat/fat in the summer. Also, when I used to eat cooked foods pre-RAF diet, I would also feel hotter if I overate cooked animal food, especially if fatty.
Re organ-meats:- The only organ-meats I was eating during my zero-carb trials were marrow, suet, heart and tongue, I didn't touch organs like liver/kidney which are lower in fat. The argument re only eating muscle-meat falls apart as the zero-carb Inuit all ate organ-meats. I was eating plenty of raw animal fat etc.
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"I start getting sharp hunger-pangs(which are not sated by however much raw meats I eat, only sated by eating raw carbs). If I continue avoiding raw plant-food after that point, that's when I start getting extremely dehydrated(no matter how much water I drink- the water just gets quickly urinated out without being absorbed)"
here's a possible alternative explanation:
candida overgrowth, systemic fungi
> thirst (fungi want to drink)
> fruit cravings (fungi want to eat sugars or starches)
"I also get a total collapse in appetite, so that eating my raw meat/fat becomes almost unbearable, having to force myself to eat even tiny amounts.My heart-rate goes through the roof and I feel like I'm on my death-bed"
here's a possible alternative explanation:
low hcl acid or other digestive fluids in the stomach
in this regard, see the list posted in another thread:
"Here are a few of the symptoms of low stomach acid:
belching or gas within one hour of a meal
bloating shortly after eating
bad breath
loss of taste for meat
nausea after taking supplements
brittle fingernails
undigested food in stool
foul-smelling stools
stomach pain
desire to skip meals
estrogen buildup
acne rosacea
depression"
some1 else's experience:
"my whole body including digestion slows down and doesn't flow as well. I start feeling heavier and slightly more bloated, no matter what the ratio of fat/protein. I then start finding meat less and less appetizing and it doesn't digest so well. I start craving low-density foods which digest fast and easy (I don't crave sugar in particular I should mention, just something that takes less energy than meat to digest). I also experience heart palpitations."
this sounds like a combination of the 2 issues just mentioned above: fungi + low digestive fluids
"think it's related to hormones, cortisol/adrenalin, which rise on zero carb. Maybe overall lowered metabolism too."
yes, when it comes to sugar/carb metabolism & availability through the blood, the liver works in sync w/ the adrenals & the pancreas
also, the minerals needed for all 3 glands to work properly may not be available or usable by the body due to poor digestion -- a vicious circle, indeed
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incidentally, 1 thing i've noticed in my case is that if i eat & drink everything i eat or drink together w/ the appropriate amount of a brine (as explained by me earlier in this thread) i do not need any kind of sweetener nor to i feel like eating anything sweet such as fruit for ex.
i've experimented even such things as drinking coffee or a raw cacao infusion: they are fine w/ the brine, no need of any type of sugar
so the key is in the minerals...
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... & the brine is even more effective (& tasty too) when combined w/ the right amount of lemon...
huh!
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I start getting extremely dehydrated(no matter how much water I drink- the water just gets quickly urinated out without being absorbed)- My heart-rate goes through the roof and I feel like I'm on my death-bed
Now in some cases crystal salt may lower high blood pressure within a few days. Other effects that people may notice rather quickly is that their bodies are more easily hydrated. They drink water, but it seems to finally do what water’s supposed to do in the body. You may start to find your cravings for sugar diminish. Crystal salt helps us to stay hydrated because it electrically charges the body in such a way that we can use water more efficiently so our blood will stay naturally thin, move easily and gracefully through our arteries and capillary system without increased blood pressure.A lot of people report that chronic pains lessen to some extent even after taking crystal salt for only one or two weeks. Other benefits are more of a long-term nature such as the detoxification of the body which is something you would never want to rush. If you use crystal salt in your diet regularly, you should have sufficient iodine coverage. Also with weight loss, crystal salt can help over time. There are immediate, midterm and long term benefits from taking crystal salt but I would not try too much to envision when these benefits should occur because the wisdom of your body always knows best. Now as we know from medicine, dehydration is a problem that can support the origin of any disease that we know of. On the other hand, hydration on a cellular level, which requires more than just drinking water, it requires water and the right type of salt that can help us with any health condition and can also improve our well being in general.
Many studies have been done in Europe on crystal salt. These studies show that crystal salt contains calcium and magnesium. These minerals are essential for staying healthy. Peter Ferreira conducted a study on 400 people (done over a 2 year period) that proves the importance of crystal salt in our diets. In his book “Water and Salt”, he found that by using crystal salt, blood pressure can be balanced, calcium deposits can be eliminated, usable oxygen in blood can increase, red blood cells can be un-clumped, blood can be detoxified, the full spectrum of elements that resonates with our bones and enzymes and builds bone marrow can be utilized, radiation is neutralized, capillaries can become more elastic and blood flow increases, extra electrons are added to the body, (which are free radical scavengers), the entire spectrum of electrolytes that the body needs can be received, uric acid can be detoxified from sodium chloride intake, a possible increase of elimination of heavy metals through the stool may occur, and cravings for sweets are reduced.
The salt can detox in two different ways: By taking the brine or salt you detoxify through the elimination process and the other by bathing in a salt bath, using the Miracle Krystal Bath Salt you detoxify through the skin. The bath is a gentler way and can be used by people who have been more severely poisoned through industrial chemicals. The bath is gentler because the toxins come through the skin and do not have to pass through the liver and kidneys to exit the body.
One of the first symptoms of detoxification that a lot of people notice when they start using the brine is that they have a natural desire to drink more water. This is not the same as being really thirsty from over-eating salt, as you may have experienced in the past with table salt, but it’s a natural inclination because the body needs more water to flush out the toxins that are set in motion by the use of the brine. Some people experience mild detoxification symptoms in the form of a light headache for a day or two, maybe some skin rashes, change in body temperature, a skin irritation, constipation or bowel movements. Usually these detoxification symptoms are very mild and only if they should persist and bother you would I recommend you stop using the brine and simply use the granulated salt on your food which will not cause a detoxification reaction.
Brine Detox Information: For some people the brine can be a powerful detoxifier. Those who are taking any prescriptions or over the counter medications, or have any condition that may be salt sensitive, are advised to consult a knowledgeable healthcare professional before taking the brine. We strongly suggest that you start with one drop and slowly increase to a maximum of one teaspoon per day. More is not necessarily better. Small amounts on a daily basis will bring the best results. If you experience any symptoms of discomfort, stop taking the brine immediately and consult your healthcare professional. Not recommended for children under the age of 18. Not recommended for pregnant or nursing women. Drink a minimum of two quarts of pure water daily when using the brine.
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Been as we are talking about hydration and fruit - suger!...
Foods That Damage
Sugar Is Poison!
The average person living in the Western world consumes about 125 pounds of refined table sugar every year! Did you know that sugar is poisonous to the body and that it leads to, or directly causes, 146 health problems and diseases? Here are just a few examples:
Sugar can suppress the immune system and it contributes to the reduction in the body's defense against bacterial infection (infectious diseases). Scientists have proven that too much sugar is the death of the immune system.
Sugar upsets the mineral relationships in the body. It also interferes with absorption of calcium and magnesium.
Sugar produces a low oxygen environment = cancer and candida (fungal) growth environment.
Sugar causes a loss of tissue elasticity and function.
Sugar can cause and/or lead to appendicitis, atherosclerosis, arthritis,asthma, cancer, candida (fungal overgrowth), eczema, emphysema, gallstones,heart disease, hemorrhoids, multiple sclerosis, osteoporosis, periodontal disease, varicose veins, etc.
Sugar weakens eyesight and it can cause cataracts.
Sugar contributes to diabetes and obesity.
Sugar can impair the structure of DNA (genes).
Sugar is the #1 enemy of the bowel movement.
Sugar can cause headaches, including migraine.
Sugar can cause depression.
Sugar causes indigestion and constipation.
Sugar feeds cancer and other fungal diseases, i.e. candida (fungal overgrowth).
Sugar is an addictive substance, and it can be intoxicating, similar to alcohol.
Sugar causes high blood pressure in obese people.
For the complete list see Sugar, 146 Reasons Why Sugar Is Ruining Your Health.
The fact that sugar greatly depresses the immune system has been known for many years, mainly because of Linus Pauling. He is the only person ever to receive two unshared Nobel Prizes — for Chemistry (1954) and for Peace (1962). He concluded that white blood cells need a high dose of vitamin C, and so he developed his theory that high doses of vitamin C were needed to combat the common cold, the flu, and even cancer.
Did you know that vitamin C and sugar have similar chemical structures so that means they compete with one another for entry into the cells? New research confirms Dr. John Ely's 30-year theory that sugar (glucose) competes with ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) for insulin-mediated uptake into cells.
Consuming sugar can effectively crowd out the ascorbate (vitamin C). The effect of the Pauling Therapy [high doses of vitamin C] is reportedly much more pronounced and immediate when sugar is eliminated.
If there is more sugar around less vitamin C is allowed into the cell, and vice versa. It is interesting that taking vitamin C also helps curb cravings for sugar, alcohol and carbohydrates. Since our bodies cannot make vitamin C on its own, it must be obtained from foods or supplements on a daily basis.
In his book Sugar Blues, Bill Dufty points out numerous examples of physical diseases and psychological disorders that can be traced back to diets that are deficient in whole unprocessed foods, and dominated by highly processed fats and sugars.
One example he notes is that "by 1662, sugar consumption in England had zoomed from zero to some 16 million pounds a year, this in little over two centuries. Then, in 1665, London was swept by a plague." However, the bubonic plague was blamed on rats?
The problem with sugar consumption is not just limited to refined table sugar. Other types of sugars are just as damaging, i.e. corn syrup and sweeteners, honey, maple syrup, molasses, glucose, fructose (fruits), and all artificial sugar substitutes and sweeteners, i.e. NutraSweet, aspartame, saccharin, etc. – see the partial list below.
Names for Sugars and Sweeteners (partial list)
Aspartame
Acesulfame-K
alitame
cane
sugar
carmel
carob powder
corn starch
corn syrup
crystalline powder
carbohydrate
cyclamate
date sugar
disaccharides
dextrin
dextrose
erythritol
fructose
galactose
glucose
invert
sugar
lactitol
lactose
levulose
malts of any kind
maltitol
maltodextrin
maltose
manitol
mannitol
monosaccharides
Naturlose
NutraSweet
polydextrose
polysaccharides
ribose
saccharin
sorbitol
sorghum
suamiel
sucanat
sucrose
tagatose
talose
trehalose
Xylitol
Artificial sugars are particularly damaging to the body because they are neurotoxic, meaning they cause damage to the brain, spinal cord and nervous system. In Sugar-Free Blues Jim Earles writes this about aspartame:
"Researchers at Utah State University found that even at low levels aspartame induces adverse changes in the pituitary glands of mice. The pituitary gland is the master gland upon which the proper function of all biochemical processes depend.
When aspartame is digested it breaks down into the amino acids phenylalanine and aspartic acid, plus methanol. Methanol, or wood alcohol, is a known poison.
Methanol is also found in fruit juices, and our regulatory agencies have seized upon this fact to assure us that the methanol by-product of aspartame is not harmful. They fail to point out that the methanol content of a diet soft drink is 15 to 100 times higher than that of fruit juices."
Fruit Is Not As Healthy As You Think
Did you know that fruit is not the healthy food it is claimed to be? Fruit is mostly fructose sugar with some vitamins, minerals and other nutrients. Those vitamins and nutrients are easily obtained from meats, eggs, and vegetables.
Did you know there is more vitamin C in broccoli and peppers than in any fruits sold at the grocery store today, and that meats and eggs also contain vitamin C?
Even healthy people should limit fruit consumption to two per day and they should always be accompanied by plenty of saturated fats to slow the release of fructose into the bloodstream.
That is why strawberries and cream tastes so good together! Like all other sugars, fructose causes insulin resistance (see the section below), as proven in scientific tests. Fruits that are lowest in sugar are grapefruit, lemon and lime.
Also a high carbohydrate diet is just as damaging to your body as sugar – see the section below Scientific Proof Carbohydrates Cause Disease. Did you know you can obtain all of your body's blood sugar requirements by eating meats, eggs and saturated fats, and no carbohydrates!
That is because "58% of the protein and about 10% of the fat you eat are converted to glucose," as stated by Prevention Magazine.
Insulin Resistant Cells
Sugar and a diet high in carbohydrates creates insulin resistant cell. Insulin is a hormone secreted by the pancreas. It helps the body utilize blood glucose (blood sugar) by binding with receptors on cells like a key would fit into a lock.
Once the key, which is insulin, has unlocked the door, the glucose can pass from the blood into the cell. Inside the cell, glucose is either used for energy or stored for future use in the form of glycogen in the liver or muscle cells.
The body's cells become insulin resistant because they are trying to protect themselves from the toxic effects of high insulin, which is required to regulate blood sugar levels when the diet is high in sugars and carbohydrates.
This causes the cells to down-regulate their receptor activity and the numbers of their receptors so they don't have to receive ?that noxious stimuli' all the time.
It is like having this loud disgusting music being played and you have to turn down the volume. Insulin resistance by the cells leads to blood sugar problems like hypoglycemia and diabetes, and also to high blood pressure.
In Insulin and Its Metabolic Affects Ron Rosedale, M.D. states: "A less known fact is that insulin also stores magnesium. But if your cells become resistant to insulin, you can't store magnesium so you lose it through urination.
Intracellular magnesium relaxes muscles. What happens when you can't store magnesium because the cell is resistant? You lose magnesium and your blood vessels constrict. This causes an increase in blood pressure and a reduction in energy since intracellular magnesium is required for all energy producing reactions that take place in the cell.
But most importantly, magnesium is also necessary for the action of insulin and the manufacture of insulin. When you raise your insulin, you lose magnesium, and the cells become even more insulin resistant.
Blood vessels constrict and glucose and insulin can't get to the tissues, which makes them more insulin resistant, so the insulin levels go up and you lose more magnesium. This is the vicious cycle that begins even before you were born."
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Neither of the suggestions seem likely to me. By the time I went in for raw zero-carb I'd already got rid of the various health-problems I'd incurred from years of doing cooked diets. And I didn't have any symptoms of low stomach-acid either (indeed, my digestion very quickly improved as soon as I went in for a carb-filled raw animal food diet(and cut out the dairy).
Other possibilities could be that some people who've been for decades on a carb-rich diet cannot simply switch over as their body has become rigidly accustomed to carbs.
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Although I still don't like salt, I find I can tolerate it the more (raw) meat I eat, and I mean tolerate it well.
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I thought candida overgrowth too. Sounds very similiar to what I experienced.
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I thought candida overgrowth too. Sounds very similiar to what I experienced.
Tell us how you cured it and how long it took. What were the symptoms you had along the way?
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incidentally, 1 thing i've noticed in my case is that if i eat & drink everything i eat or drink together w/ the appropriate amount of a brine (as explained by me earlier in this thread) i do not need any kind of sweetener nor to i feel like eating anything sweet such as fruit for ex.
i've experimented even such things as drinking coffee or a raw cacao infusion: they are fine w/ the brine, no need of any type of sugar
so the key is in the minerals...
rafonly could you please explain exactly the amounts of brine and lemon juice you consume with your meat? Do you drink the brine solution/lemon before or after the meal?
I'm going to try drinking some fresh squeezed lemon juice with my meats to see if that aids digestion. I think I might have low HCl since I belch a lot after a fatty meat meal.
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I'm going to try drinking some fresh squeezed lemon juice with my meats to see if that aids digestion. I think I might have low HCl since I belch a lot after a fatty meat meal.
Lemon juice has nothing to do with your body's HCl.
Nicola
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Lemon juice has nothing to do with your body's HCl.
Nicola
it is acidic though and I think it helps keeping the acidic pH of the stomach. This alone activates many enzymes which need acidic conditions. So it's not the same as adding HCl but it should provide some benefit.
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of course lemon is different from the stomach hcl acid -- lemon was still a fruit last time i checked...
nevertheless, lemon is helpful to overcome digestive weakness or fungi overgrowth, which may be correlated (google lemon fungi or digestion); helpful as well, afaik, are sea salt dissolved in water & dried (or fresh) ginger
some of the virtues of lemon:
~ the only fruit that is anionic
~ citric acid (an indispensable element in the digestive process)
~ antioxidant power
~ mineral content
it's useless to tell some1 else what to eat or drink, how much, in what proportions, when, etc.
every1 = an individual: some1's food = some1 else's poison
in the end, every1 has to do their own experimentation
that said, i tend to think that a combination of the 3 items i just mentioned may turn out to be the right thing for some people
such as, for ex, a meat dressing made of brine, lemon, ground dried ginger (to sip or to dip minced meat in), or a ginger tea complete w/ sea salt & lemon, or other preparations of the 3
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Lemon juice has nothing to do with your body's HCl.
Nicola
using lemon WITH the meat, i can't digest the meat. sometimes it helps my meat digestion though if i take lemon first thing in the morning, and have the meat later in the day
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I recently tried using some salt in my water when I work out (b/c of this discussion). Also I'll put a lemon or lime in there too. Made a big difference. Have a lot more energy.
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I added salt to my meat tonight and my legs are really aching now and my feet have ballooned. Ouch.I havent had salt for a long time.
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I added salt to my meat tonight and my legs are really aching now and my feet have ballooned. Ouch.I havent had salt for a long time.
I like to add just a very little (less than a teespoon) of sole to my drinking water once a day (I see salt in context with water and not with meat)- it kind of gives the water that special touch and does have it's benefits in our body (many functions in our body need sodium and chloride)! I noticed the glace I use gets a white crust from the alkaline ionized water I drink; when I put a little sole in the same glace it helps brake up that deposit. My thoughts are that we have many deposits in our system which could be eliminated/transformed with salt too (amongst all the other life essential properties salt has).
Your body will react - reacting does not have to be a negative - it is just a reaction.
Nicola
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Anyone here tried the water and salt cure recipe at http://www.watercure2.org/mankind.htm as first written by Batmanghelidj ?
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I added salt to my meat tonight and my legs are really aching now and my feet have ballooned. Ouch.I havent had salt for a long time.
Yes, salt really does increase water-retention, so I'm not surprised. Beats me why anyone recommends salt. I can handle perhaps a pinch of it once in a great while, but it has similiar effects if more is consumed.
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Yes, salt really does increase water-retention, so I'm not surprised. Beats me why anyone recommends salt. I can handle perhaps a pinch of it once in a great while, but it has similiar effects if more is consumed.
Well, it would be interesting to see if on a zerocarb diet, salt still increases salt retention :
On http://blog.zeroinginonhealth.com/?p=805 :
"...water lost on carbohydrate-restricted diets is a reversal of the sodium retention that takes place routinely when we eat carbohydrates. Eating them causes the kidneys to retain salt rather than excrete it. The body retains extra water to keep the sodium concentration of the blood constant."
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Well, "Wodgina" is on zero-carb.
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Well, "Wodgina" is on zero-carb.
Was it refined or unrefined salt that caused water retention ?
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"I added salt to my meat tonight and my legs are really aching now and my feet have ballooned"
ahah!
this sounds pretty similar to what i reported earlier on this thread; here it is again after some editorial additions & subtractions:
salt comes, initially (even rock salt), from the ocean
in the sea, salt is always dissolved
therefore
the most natural way to take salt is to have it dissolved in water -- such as making a brine w/ deionzed water
why sea salt & not rock salt?
sea salt contains volatile elements that have long dried/died out from rock salt
1 advantage i've observed:
if i add dry salt crystals straight to my food (= raw meat), after a few days of such practice i start getting edema in my legs or face
if i eat the above-mentioned brine (oftentimes mixed w/ lemon juice & ground ginger) right before or along w/ my food, i enjoy the feasts & have no such edematic after-effect
incidentally (i'm adding this bit now) lemon, anionic as it is, helps eliminate excessive urea (acquired from raw meat food)
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incidentally (i'm adding this bit now) lemon, anionic as it is, helps eliminate excessive urea (acquired from raw meat food)
What do you think did man do when he had no lemons?
http://www.newtreatments.org/reams
Nicola
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the most natural way to take salt is to have it dissolved in water -- such as making a brine w/ deionzed water
In summer when I must do physical stuff in sweaty weather I must drink brine or be sick, so it depends on the circumstance.
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I should also mention I was in the ocean for about 3 hours that day but later on I craved a bit of salt so added it to my meat (not much) 2 to 4 hours later my legs started to really ache like growing pains when I was a kid then looked down and my feet were all swollen. They had gone down by the next day and the thought of adding salt to my food again the next day made me feel sick.
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after i wrote "incidentally (i'm adding this bit now) lemon, anionic as it is, helps eliminate excessive urea (acquired from raw meat food)" earlier in this thread, this reply came:
What do you think did man do when he had no lemons?
http://www.newtreatments.org/reams
good question
i sure wonder about this, myself
so here's a couple of tentative points that come to mind at the moment
differences between the cro-magnon & a current human being such as i
~ physiology
i tend to think that the saliva & other digestive fluids & enzymes of the cro-magnon were significantly different from mine
~ biosphere
i'm quite certain that the mineral profile in the (land & water) biosphere was significantly different back then -- minerals being indispensable for the optimal functioning of such glands & organs as the liver, adrenals, pancreas, intestines, kidneys, etc.
resources to process & eliminate the excessive urea that results from a raw meat meal
~ quality, quantity, timing of water drinking practices to optimize the kidneys work (which leads to urine flows into the toilet bowl or the peeing field)
~ quality, quantity, timing of the (raw or otherwise) meat eaten
the cro-magnon eat wooly mammoths & other fatty large animals
> a far cry from the goat carcasses you find today in any halal market or the chops, steaks, fillets, or ground beef sold, in the "fresh" or frozen condition, by grass-fed merchants
perhaps the lemon became needed & thus available only w/ the advent of the large-scale farming or herding enterprises? & the same applies to using a brine?
who knows!
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Well, it would be interesting to see if on a zerocarb diet, salt still increases salt retention :
On http://blog.zeroinginonhealth.com/?p=805 :
"...water lost on carbohydrate-restricted diets is a reversal of the sodium retention that takes place routinely when we eat carbohydrates. Eating them causes the kidneys to retain salt rather than excrete it. The body retains extra water to keep the sodium concentration of the blood constant."
I used to hardly ever use salt, but..
This is about a year ago when I made the switch from raw vegan to raw animal foods. I eliminated starch and most vegetation completely (it was summer, so I did eat strawberries occasionally from the farmers market, but that it's about all). At the time I was drinking about a glass of raw milk with eggs (I hadn't had milk in about 10 yrs!) a day and raw goat cheese (no cheese for about 5 yrs). I'd say my carbs were around 20-30%. The only meat I was eating was beef from a local farmer...my intro to eating raw meat. As a crutch (to eat raw), I added salt... kind of a lot of salt... it was celtice sea salt or that stuff from herbimare. I expected to pay dearly in water retention, but that was my way to try raw meat. Anyway, despite the dairy and added salt, I lost 8 pounds practically overnite! It was awesome bc I was at exactly the bf I wanted to be for photo shoots and stuff and I didn't have to 'starve' to get there.
Soon enough, though, I liked my raw meat and did't 'need' the salt. Didn't notice any changes when I eliminated it (better nor worse).
And just recently I tried zc, but so far that's been a disaster. Still working on it!... and so far without salt.
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funny
it so happens that a few weeks ago i totally lost my taste for lemon
so my food is 100% fruitless again
the 6-7 weeks i used lemons, however, were not a waste: i got rid of excess candida -- for several days in a row my stool turned into light brown/beige lumps that would smell like yeast & then overnight went back to its normal brown cylinders
yet this is not the end of my campaign for freedom from excess fungi
for 1 thing, the hawaiian sea salt i add to my drinking water & also sip (as a brine w/ added ground ginger) at eating time is not only a mineral supplement & a digestive aid, but also an antifungal
2nd thing: lemon is not the only anionic thing in the world; edible clay is also anionic
see:
http://www.californiaearthminerals.com/science/ (http://www.californiaearthminerals.com/science/)
so now, for me, it's hawaiian sea salt (always dissolved, never dry crystals), clay, wild harvested algae (fucus/bladderwrack)
every1 = an individual > some1's food = some1 else's poison