Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet => Topic started by: kurite on April 22, 2010, 04:58:47 pm
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I was reading up on some of the ideals behind the paleo diet and found a site that said we ate more vegetables than fruit back in the day? Is this true? I kind of get the sense that most members believe in eating more fruit than veggies?
Any thoughts?
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I would agree. Vegetables in the wild are more available through the year than fruits. That said, I think people only really went in for vegetables when cooking was invented. Prior to that, eating roots and tubers would have been a real problem, given the concentration of antinutrients. Other veg such as garlic leaves would have been eaten raw, way before cooking got started in the last 10% of the Palaeolithic era.
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Depends on the veggie and depends on the fruit.
And depends on your definition of what a fruit and what a veggie is.
My fruit definition is anything with seeds.
So I feed my kids cucumbers and zuccini. They are fruits. But some people call them veggies just because they aren't sweet.
There are good things like celery which are vegetables. Then there are carrots which are root crops.
It all depends. It all depends on what you got in your area.
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I suspect they ate whatever they could. This means, in some areas (and times), LOTS of fruit & veggies and occasional meats. In other areas (and times), it meant mostly veggies, or mostly fruit, or mostly meats.
Planet Earth is a big place with myriad environmental conditions, and the paleo (as well as neolithic) period covered a lot of time. Homo sapiens alone walked out of Africa some 200,000 years, spread quickly throughout Southeast Asia & Europe, lived through several Ice Ages (glacial maximum) in areas both cold and hot, and are extremely adaptable and opportunistic.
Veggies over fruit? The question is too general. Paleo humans didn't, on the whole, favor one or the other.
I suggest experimenting and seeing for yourself what YOUR body prefers (if either). So long as you have broken any particular "addictions", your body will not steer you wrong.
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Most vegetables in there wild state are pretty damn bitter, my feeling is these would have been last case scenario foods and/or heavily cooked.
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Bitter? Why would you say that?
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Is modern garlic bred to be extra strong because of cooking? Would real wild garlic have been nicer?
Also... Some people would say that any desire for sugar is a sign of an addiction there. People who think sugar is bad...
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Bitter? Why would you say that?
They usually contain alkaloids. Wild lettuce is notoriously bitter
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I suspect they ate whatever they could. This means, in some areas (and times), LOTS of fruit & veggies and occasional meats. In other areas (and times), it meant mostly veggies, or mostly fruit, or mostly meats.
Planet Earth is a big place with myriad environmental conditions, and the paleo (as well as neolithic) period covered a lot of time. Homo sapiens alone walked out of Africa some 200,000 years, spread quickly throughout Southeast Asia & Europe, lived through several Ice Ages (glacial maximum) in areas both cold and hot, and are extremely adaptable and opportunistic.
Veggies over fruit? The question is too general. Paleo humans didn't, on the whole, favor one or the other.
I suggest experimenting and seeing for yourself what YOUR body prefers (if either). So long as you have broken any particular "addictions", your body will not steer you wrong.
What an excellent post. Thank you
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They usually contain alkaloids. Wild lettuce is notoriously bitter
Actually wild lettuce isn't bitter until it is full grown. If you eat it young than it is not bitter at all. Modern day lettuce does this to as far as I know.
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I have always eaten carrots like its a fruit cause of the high sugar content...But I guess fruits do taste better and they are probably preferred back in the ages..
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I'm definitely of the type that believes we can eat within the kinds of foods we are adapted to - ideally in comprobable quantities that we would have as research unfolds - but ultimately is on the preference of the individual
so while even things like fruit oils might fit within this definition of 'paleo', it doesn't make them healthy, especially in large percentages of the diet. You can apply this to other 'offenders' and percentages of course.
I tend to go in for things like celery and other non-herb vegetables as being positive, but these ARE totally products of agriculture. At the same time, not all wild foods are bitter from experience going on wild food hikes.
I do think most non-root veg in the paelolithic would have been more in the form of herbs, and would not contribute much fiber or starch or even bulk.
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I'm under the impression that a reason for eshewing vegetables is that they have a much slower transit time than raw meats, and are far less digestible than vegetarians claim, so they might present more problems for us than with healthy primitives, who also would likely just be picking them fresh and infrequently so, not picking and choosing them in between meat meals.
the paleo doctrines mentioned the OP are probably based on cooking, in that case raw or cooked vegetation is beneficial in moving cooked meat through the body.
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What an excellent post. Thank you
Very kind of you to say. Thank you.
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I prefer veggies over fruit mainly because fruits tend to spike my insulin levels, making me low blood sugar, which defeats the purpose of eating in my case. I never get hungry, only low blood sugar.
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Maybe one or the other was more common in the wild, but really I doubt there's any rhyme or reason to which was consumed more often.
We probably ate them opportunistically, when we came across edible varieties on our travels. What that means to me is that ideally you would want both sporadically, and in as wide of a variety as possible.
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vegetables are for pussies. traditionally we ate things like roots, mushrooms and leaves. fruits are just diabetes waiting to happen.
roots & leaves > nuts, seeds & mushrooms > vegetables & berries > fruits > pepsi, coffee, pizza & donuts
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vegetables are for pussies. traditionally we ate things like roots, mushrooms and leaves. fruits are just diabetes waiting to happen.
roots & leaves > nuts, seeds & mushrooms > vegetables & berries > fruits > pepsi, coffee, pizza & donuts
Love your analysis.
Any suggestions for roots?
Leaves?
Which seeds?
Which mushrooms?
I want to try raw mushrooms. Which ones are safe?
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I don't tolerate sugar be it fruit, or any kind, or anything with a seed on my diet. Sugar once or twice a year similar to natives when they harvest honey for pollen and bacteria purposes or from tree sap or pollen.
Veggies, water, fats, organs, meats, and bones and plenty of sun.
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I preferred the butternut squash at first as it made my energy more even, but I find that now I'm starting to get adapted to low carb, I don't want it at all, I'm happy with a bit of fruit.
It feels ok to just eat under 30g carb from fruit, then leave it..I'm not getting bad cravings or energy drops.
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I was reading up on some of the ideals behind the paleo diet and found a site that said we ate more vegetables than fruit back in the day? Is this true? I kind of get the sense that most members believe in eating more fruit than veggies?
Any thoughts?
Until today I still have never seen ANY wild vegetable in any country that looked palatable in its raw uncooked form.
Take the wild carrot for example, very small, very hard, like a piece of wood.
Why on earth started humans breeding vegetables? There must have been an extreme shortage of real food.
Sometimes I have the feeling that the whole 'wild vegetable thing' is just a myth or nonsense.
Wild fruits are ok. Wild meats are ok. Do we need anything else?
Löwenherz
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Until today I still have never seen ANY wild vegetable in any country that looked palatable in its raw uncooked form.
Take the wild carrot for example, very small, very hard, like a piece of wood.
Why on earth started humans breeding vegetables? There must have been an extreme shortage of real food.
Sometimes I have the feeling that the whole 'wild vegetable thing' is just a myth or nonsense.
Wild fruits are ok. Wild meats are ok. Do we need anything else?
Löwenherz
I never understood that whole thing either. Another example is a potato. Supposedly they were poisonous while still wild and we bred it to be not poisonous. But what was the purpose?
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Love your analysis.
Any suggestions for roots?
Leaves?
Which seeds?
Which mushrooms?
I want to try raw mushrooms. Which ones are safe?
no clue about mushrooms or roots in practice - was saying it theoretically.
leaves - i use organic spinach, as well as just an organic spring salad mix that they sell at the store ( i don't even know what they put in there ). but you have to make sure any leaves you get are organic because they have a huge surface area so if they are sprayed you will get a huge dose of toxins. theoretically i know i should be using more leafy greens but they don't stay fresh very long so i am reluctant to buy them in fear that they will go bad before i can use them.
seeds - i use hemp and chia. chia seeds i blend. hemp seeds you can eat just like that, they are much softer and better tasting. sprout the seeds if you can - this will make them more easily digestible ( i don't do this myself, but i probably should )
i also use this:
http://www.thesynergycompany.com/ps_ingredients.html
which contains roots, mushrooms, leaves, grasses, sprouted seeds & algae ... but i only use about one spoon per day because of the high cost. and even aside of the cost i would rather consume fresh food than dried powder - but it is very convenient if you use a blender on a daily basis as i do.
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I never understood that whole thing either. Another example is a potato. Supposedly they were poisonous while still wild and we bred it to be not poisonous. But what was the purpose?
To become independant from volatile food availability? After that we all became starch addicted. And today brainwashing is our daily business. See McDougall & all these other well educated experts. All physicians I know still recommend whole grains. Oh God!
The authors of the Bible knew this as Cain and Abel show us.
It must have been Devil's plan...
Löwenherz
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leaves - i use organic spinach
IIRC Spinach is un-paleo, bred from some inedible leaf I think, don't remember exactly though..
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Be careful eating such foods raw. They contain anti-nutrients.
no clue about mushrooms or roots in practice - was saying it theoretically.
From:
http://www.healthy-eating-politics.com/toxins-in-food.html
Hydrazines: volatile carcinogens found in many raw mushrooms, including shiitake and the white button mushrooms common to the grocery store produce section. Mice display a significant increase in the incidence of several types of tumors after they are fed uncooked mushrooms. Cooking the mushrooms destroys a third of the hydrazine compounds.
leaves - i use organic spinach, as well as just an organic spring salad mix that they sell at the store ( i don't even know what they put in there ). but you have to make sure any leaves you get are organic because they have a huge surface area so if they are sprayed you will get a huge dose of toxins. theoretically i know i should be using more leafy greens but they don't stay fresh very long so i am reluctant to buy them in fear that they will go bad before i can use them.
Spinach is listed below. Note that the list includes strawberries, pears and peaches (three of my favorite fruits):
Goitrogens: a class of toxins in food which suppress the function of the thyroid gland by interfering with iodine uptake. Long term exposure can cause an enlargement of the thyroid (goiter). Foods containing these substances include soybeans (and soybean products such as tofu), pine nuts, peanuts, millet, strawberries, pears, peaches, spinach, bamboo shoots, radishes, horseradish, and vegetables in the genus Brassica (bok choy, broccoli, brussels sprouts, cabbage, canola, cauliflower, Chinese cabbage, collard greens, kale, kohlrabi, mustard greens, rutabagas, and turnips.
seeds - i use hemp and chia. chia seeds i blend. hemp seeds you can eat just like that, they are much softer and better tasting. sprout the seeds if you can - this will make them more easily digestible ( i don't do this myself, but i probably should )
Seeds have phytic acid:
http://www.healthy-eating-politics.com/phytic-acid.html
I stick with certain fruits. Banana, apple, blueberry, grapefruit, etc.
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Be careful eating such foods raw. They contain anti-nutrients.
From:
http://www.healthy-eating-politics.com/toxins-in-food.html
Hydrazines: volatile carcinogens found in many raw mushrooms, including shiitake and the white button mushrooms common to the grocery store produce section. Mice display a significant increase in the incidence of several types of tumors after they are fed uncooked mushrooms. Cooking the mushrooms destroys a third of the hydrazine compounds.
Spinach is listed below. Note that the list includes strawberries, pears and peaches (three of my favorite fruits):
Goitrogens: a class of toxins in food which suppress the function of the thyroid gland by interfering with iodine uptake. Long term exposure can cause an enlargement of the thyroid (goiter). Foods containing these substances include soybeans (and soybean products such as tofu), pine nuts, peanuts, millet, strawberries, pears, peaches, spinach, bamboo shoots, radishes, horseradish, and vegetables in the genus Brassica (bok choy, broccoli, brussels sprouts, cabbage, canola, cauliflower, Chinese cabbage, collard greens, kale, kohlrabi, mustard greens, rutabagas, and turnips.
Seeds have phytic acid:
http://www.healthy-eating-politics.com/phytic-acid.html
I stick with certain fruits. Banana, apple, blueberry, grapefruit, etc.
well bananas, apples etc are no good for me - too much carbs.
can you recommend any raw vegan foods that are relatively low in carbs ?
i mean if all you are trying to do is avoid antinutrients you might as well just eat sugar with a spoon.
i do know that spinach for example contains oxalic acid and seeds contain enzyme inhibitors but i am trying to look at the big picture - is it a good food overall ? if its low in sugar, high in protein, vitamins, minerals ( perhaps EFAs ) then i may be willing to turn a blind eye to some minor imperfection.
what else do you eat besides bananas ?
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well bananas, apples etc are no good for me - too much carbs.
can you recommend any raw vegan foods that are relatively low in carbs ?
i mean if all you are trying to do is avoid antinutrients you might as well just eat sugar with a spoon.
i do know that spinach for example contains oxalic acid and seeds contain enzyme inhibitors but i am trying to look at the big picture - is it a good food overall ? if its low in sugar, high in protein, vitamins, minerals ( perhaps EFAs ) then i may be willing to turn a blind eye to some minor imperfection.
what else do you eat besides bananas ?
Of course everyone is going to find the foods that work for them and they will probably be different from what I eat.
The problem I see you facing is that all of the foods that are lower in carbs also tend to be high in antinutrients, such as spinach, which you mentioned. Oxalic acid isn't so bad, as long as the vegetables are consumed in a separate meal and not mixed with other foods (blocks calcium absorption). Cooking foods containing antinutrients reduces the antinutrients and makes them more easily digestible. It is the opposite of meat (which is much healthier raw), generally.
I don't know what to recommend other than cooking such foods. Just to get an idea, how much carbs is too much carbs?? For instance, a large tomato only has 7g total carbs:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2682/2
It is a nightshade and contains tomatine, a fungicide. But you can deal with that by cooking it.
A large summer squash has only 11 grams of carbohydrates:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2748/2
I am not aware of any toxins in summer squash as well as okra (7g carbs in 100g serving) and cucumber (mostly water!).
The general rule (of which there may of course be exceptions) is to eat meat and fruit raw, but to cook vegetables and tubers. But each person usually finds that they need to make some tweaks to achieve what they want to achieve with their diet.
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Tomatine is a toxic glycoalkaloid found in the stems and leaves of tomato plants, which has fungicidal properties.[1] Chemically pure tomatine is a white crystalline solid at standard temperature and pressure.[2] Some microbes produce an enzyme called tomatinase which can degrade tomatine, rendering it ineffective as an antimicrobial.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomatine
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Tomatine is a toxic glycoalkaloid found in the stems and leaves of tomato plants, which has fungicidal properties.[1] Chemically pure tomatine is a white crystalline solid at standard temperature and pressure.[2] Some microbes produce an enzyme called tomatinase which can degrade tomatine, rendering it ineffective as an antimicrobial.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomatine
Thanks for correcting me, tomatine is not a fungicide, it has fungicidal properties...
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Thanks for correcting me, tomatine is not a fungicide, it has fungicidal properties...
I wasn't correcting you, if anything Wikipedia was correcting you, I just linked it. That's the entire Wikipedia section on Tomatine. I know nothing about it myself. It says though that it's in the stems and leaves, doesn't mention the fruit. Also I was wondering what's so bad about eating something with fungicidal properties.
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The general rule (of which there may of course be exceptions) is to eat meat and fruit raw, but to cook vegetables and tubers.
what are tubers ?
i'm not sure i'm buying this. apes eat leaves all the time and they don't cook them.
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I wasn't correcting you, if anything Wikipedia was correcting you, I just linked it. That's the entire Wikipedia section on Tomatine. I know nothing about it myself. It says though that it's in the stems and leaves, doesn't mention the fruit. Also I was wondering what's so bad about eating something with fungicidal properties.
I don't know much about the toxicity of fungicides, it may pass through the human digestive system with no effect, or it might interfere with digestion, or enter the bloodstream and bind to cell receptor sited where it shouldn't, I haven't found much information yet. But until I do find information one way or the other I personally will avoid it. The fact that something is a fungicide means it is quite bioactive, and I don't want some strange bioactive chemical entering my body.
Let me know if you come up with anything.
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what are tubers ?
i'm not sure i'm buying this. apes eat leaves all the time and they don't cook them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuber
Well, it is a matter of quantity. You can certainly eat small amounts of vegetable leaves in meals and be okay (that is, relatively unaffected by the antinutrients). But human digestion is different from that of apes:
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-2a.shtml
Humans are not vegetarians, humans are descended from vegetarians. So it makes sense that we can eat and digest raw leafy greens, to an extent. I am not saying that we can't digest it, just that we have evolved a digestion that exploits certain foods more optimally, such as meat and fruit.
And leafy greens have very little calories. As such, I am assuming that when you argue for including them in the diet, it is in a significant caloric amount, like 25% of calories. But this would be an enormous amount of vegetation. For me it would be, for instance, over 2 pounds of kale in one day. Or over 4 pounds of spinach. Lots of vegetables means lots of antinutrients, as far as I can tell.
I am not against putting a spinach leaf on my plate for presentation, but it is a waste of spinach (and money or time) to buy it or grow it just to use a few leaves. Also, I mono-eat, so my choices are going to be either a bunch of fruit or an enormous amount of vegetation or vegetables. My instincts and my patience both choose fruit.
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humans are descended from vegetarians
can you be a bit more specific ? who/what are these vegetarians that we've descended from?
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can you be a bit more specific ? who/what are these vegetarians that we've descended from?
If you trace the evolutionary lineage back far enough, some creatures that eventually evolved into H. Sapiens Sapiens lived in trees and ate lots of vegetable matter. You just have to go back 4 million years or so. See:
http://www.pnas.org/content/97/25/13506.full
At that time the only source of animal foods was probably insects.
From the paper:
"This suite of traits is distinctive of australopithecines and suggests a dietary shift at or near the stem of hominid evolution. Their thick-enameled, flattened molars would have had great difficulty propagating cracks through tough foods, suggesting that the australopithecines were not well suited for eating tough fruits, leaves, or meat. "
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If you trace the evolutionary lineage back far enough, some creatures that eventually evolved into H. Sapiens Sapiens lived in trees and ate lots of vegetable matter. You just have to go back 4 million years or so. See:
http://www.pnas.org/content/97/25/13506.full
At that time the only source of animal foods was probably insects.
From the paper:
"This suite of traits is distinctive of australopithecines and suggests a dietary shift at or near the stem of hominid evolution. Their thick-enameled, flattened molars would have had great difficulty propagating cracks through tough foods, suggesting that the australopithecines were not well suited for eating tough fruits, leaves, or meat. "
well if you look at apes they generally don't eat big animals ( they are no saber tooth lions ) but they do eat insects and small animals, which makes them NOT herbivores.
do cows eat insects ? i don't think so. apes are omnivores, just like humans.
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I'd bet more on shells and fish and shrimp on beaches and rivers than insects as human staple food.
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well if you look at apes they generally don't eat big animals ( they are no saber tooth lions ) but they do eat insects and small animals, which makes them NOT herbivores.
do cows eat insects ? i don't think so. apes are omnivores, just like humans.
Cows will sometimes ingest insects, spiders and flies so they must be omnivores too, but It's about morphology not diet. Durianrider isn't a Herbivore.
Different apes eat different things, some are Carnivores and some are Herbivores.
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well if you look at apes they generally don't eat big animals ( they are no saber tooth lions ) but they do eat insects and small animals, which makes them NOT herbivores.
do cows eat insects ? i don't think so. apes are omnivores, just like humans.
I wouldn't say "just like humans." Eating the diet of an ape would be less than ideal, even harmful for many humans. The fact that an ape diet is 95% vegetation means they are basically vegetarian. I guess you are using vegetarian to mean exclusively herbivorous. But many humans eat mostly from the plant kingdom and call themselves vegetarians, even if they are consuming as much as 25% of their calories from meat, fish, eggs or dairy.
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But many humans eat mostly from the plant kingdom and call themselves vegetarians, even if they are consuming as much as 25% of their calories from meat, fish, eggs or dairy.
and politicians call themselves honest, that doesn't make constant lying a definition of honesty. apes are not herbivores.
even if only 5% of your diet is animal say by weight it could still easily contain MOST of your daily protein intake.
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apes are not herbivores.
Herbivorous apes are not herbivores?
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and politicians call themselves honest, that doesn't make constant lying a definition of honesty. apes are not herbivores.
even if only 5% of your diet is animal say by weight it could still easily contain MOST of your daily protein intake.
Okay, meat has a lot of protein in it. What was your point?
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Okay, meat has a lot of protein in it. What was your point?
my point is you are not a herbivore unless you get close to 100% of your protein from plants. it doesn't matter how much useless filling you consume - what matters is where do you get your actual nutrition from.
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my point is you are not a herbivore unless you get close to 100% of your protein from plants. it doesn't matter how much useless filling you consume - what matters is where do you get your actual nutrition from.
I don't think we are in disagreement here, we are arguing semantics. Yes, what ultimately matters is what is consumed, what the nutritional qualities are. I suppose labels such as herbivore, omnivore, ... can be misleading. But labels are important for populists who want to make claims like "humans, like apes are vegetarian/herbivore/omnivore" and so on.
Anyways, the discussion got off track somewhere, we were discussion human evolution and ended up talking about modern apes, which tell us little about human evolution (they are more like "cousins" than "grandparents", to use an analogy involving family ties). My point was about our ancestors, not our close cousins. And as miles pointed out, ape species fall into many categories of opportunists, ranging from carnivores to herbivores.
I recall reading that insects made up only about 5% of the diet (by calories) of our herbivorous ancestors, compared to a much larger number of modern humans, and the argument goes that by eating more meat/fish our brains were able to evolve to their present large size. I am not saying this like it is gospel, don't misinterpret me, I am just wondering if anyone else has heard this and maybe someone could point me to the source.
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the argument goes that by eating more meat/fish our brains were able to evolve to their present large size. I am not saying this like it is gospel, don't misinterpret me, I am just wondering if anyone else has heard this and maybe someone could point me to the source.
i don't buy the argument. if it were true then all vegetarians would be retards, but i am not aware of any such statistical correlation.
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i don't buy the argument. if it were true then all vegetarians would be retards, but i am not aware of any such statistical correlation.
No, the point is that the decrease in brain size happens very slowly over many generations, not just over individual lifetimes. It's already proven by studies that the human brain decreased in size by 8 percent since the Neolithic due to a reduction in animal food consumption.
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No, the point is that the decrease in brain size happens very slowly over many generations, not just over individual lifetimes. It's already proven by studies that the human brain decreased in size by 8 percent since the Neolithic due to a reduction in animal food consumption.
I think there is more to it than more meat means bigger brain, I mean lions don't have huge brains. But I also think there is some truth to it, I just haven't unravelled it yet. I think TD is correct though that it takes generations for degeneration to set it. Omega-3s, for instance, are concentrated in sperm and mother's milk. But each generation that consumes an omega-3 deficient diet leaves less for the next generation.
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I think there is more to it than more meat means bigger brain, I mean lions don't have huge brains. But I also think there is some truth to it, I just haven't unravelled it yet. I think TD is correct though that it takes generations for degeneration to set it. Omega-3s, for instance, are concentrated in sperm and mother's milk. But each generation that consumes an omega-3 deficient diet leaves less for the next generation.
Eating more meat didn't make Homo brains bigger, it allowed Homo brains to become bigger.
So if some Homo sapiens sapiens now doesn't eat enough meat his brain cannot reach its potential as set by his DNA.
If a Lion doesn't eat enough meat its brain and body can't grow to their full potential either.
If a Lion eats lots of meat his brain will still only grow to its full potential as determined by his DNA, even if he's eating enough meat that his diet could support a 10% bigger brain.
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Eating more meat didn't make Homo brains bigger, it allowed Homo brains to become bigger.
So if some Homo sapiens sapiens now doesn't eat enough meat his brain cannot reach its potential as set by his DNA.
If a Lion doesn't eat enough meat its brain and body can't grow to their full potential either.
If a Lion eats lots of meat his brain will still only grow to its full potential as determined by his DNA, even if he's eating enough meat that his diet could support a 10% bigger brain.
Right, there is a programming (DNA) that requires certain inputs (meat, especially raw meat) in order for a certain genetic expression to take place (full potential). Anything less than what is optimal may result in growth, but the genetic expression will be different, the organism will be weaker or less able to thrive, reproduce, ...
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It's already proven by studies that the human brain decreased in size by 8 percent since the Neolithic due to a reduction in animal food consumption.
you seem to live in the fantasy world. the studies could have proven that the brain decreased 8% but the cause of this is pure speculation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio
mice are herbivores, and have the same size brain as humans relative to their body mass.
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I think there is more to it than more meat means bigger brain, I mean lions don't have huge brains. But I also think there is some truth to it, I just haven't unravelled it yet. I think TD is correct though that it takes generations for degeneration to set it. Omega-3s, for instance, are concentrated in sperm and mother's milk. But each generation that consumes an omega-3 deficient diet leaves less for the next generation.
wake up and smell the coffee - half an ounce of chia seed oil contains as much omega 3 as the entire human brain.
http://www.amazon.com/Virgin-Chia-12oz-Glass-Bottle/dp/B004PWMQKG/ref=sr_1_1?s=miscellaneous&ie=UTF8&qid=1299883679&sr=1-1
that's actually why i don't use chia oil - it has TOO MUCH omega 3. i just blend chia seeds in my Vitamix - they also add thickness to my smoothie.
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you seem to live in the fantasy world. the studies could have proven that the brain decreased 8% but the cause of this is pure speculation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio
mice are herbivores, and have the same size brain as humans relative to their body mass.
You're not being too bright. The fact is that those studies showed that brain-size decreased by 8 percent once we switched from the Palaeolithic era to the Neolithic era. The only major change around that time was a major reduction of animal food in the human diet and a corresponding consumption of grains, dairy and legumes. Given that the Eskimoes have the largest brain-sizes and were until recently eating all-animal food diets(well, 96 to 99 percent at least), that supports the notion that it was the eating of meat that made human brains bigger and that a reduction in meat-consumption led to a smaller brain-size.
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Eating more meat didn't make Homo brains bigger, it allowed Homo brains to become bigger.
in your dreams ...
what about the opposing thumb ? was that also due to high dietary fat intake ?
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You're not being too bright. The fact is that those studies showed that brain-size decreased by 8 percent once we switched from the Palaeolithic era to the Neolithic era. The only major change around that time was a major reduction of animal food in the human diet and a corresponding consumption of grains, dairy and legumes. Given that the Eskimoes have the largest brain-sizes and were until recently eating all-animal food diets(well, 96 to 99 percent at least), that supports the notion that it was the eating of meat that made human brains bigger and that a reduction in meat-consumption led to a smaller brain-size.
has it ever occurred to you that hunting requires greater intelligence than collecting welfare checks ? you can feed a retard on welfare anything you want and his IQ is still going to be zero.
our brains are withering away because we don't need them any more. eskimos need big brains because they live in an adverse environment.
humans are on a fast course to becoming dumber than sh1t, and you aren't going to be able to stop this with any dietary guidelines. you will have to get rid of welfare, unions, minimum wage laws and warning labels.
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in your dreams ...
what about the opposing thumb ? was that also due to high dietary fat intake ?
Err, ahem, primates have opposable thumbs like gorillas. That happened well before hominid brains got bigger.
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has it ever occurred to you that hunting requires greater intelligence than collecting welfare checks ? you can feed a retard on welfare anything you want and his IQ is still going to be zero.
our brains are withering away because we don't need them any more. eskimos need big brains because they live in an adverse environment.
humans are on a fast course to becoming dumber than sh1t, and you aren't going to be able to stop this with any dietary guidelines. you will have to get rid of welfare, unions, minimum wage laws and warning labels.
You still haven't understood what on earth we are talking about. None of us are suggesting that eating meats or not eating meats makes one more or less intelligent within one generation. Clearly, given the evidence, it takes many generations for brains to get smaller or bigger. As for hunting, again that's wrong. After all, there are plenty of other hunter-gatherer tribes with smaller brains than the Inuit who also lived in harsh environments(eg deserts etc.) and who hunted a lot.
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Err, ahem, primates have opposable thumbs like gorillas. That happened well before hominid brains got bigger.
so check this timeline for me:
1 - opposable thumb
2 - primates become most intelligent animals
3 - humans start to eat meat
wouldn't you say cause has to precede the effect ?
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so check this timeline for me:
1 - opposable thumb
2 - primates become most intelligent animals
3 - humans start to eat meat
wouldn't you say cause has to precede the effect ?
You are again missing the point. If opposable thumbs were so important, one would expect gorillas to be far more intelligent than they actually are. And the biggest rise in apeman brain-size in the Palaeolithic era occurred in tandem with a massive increase in meat-consumption by apemen.
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the biggest rise in apeman brain-size in the Palaeolithic era occurred in tandem with a massive increase in meat-consumption by apemen.
i am not denying that the two are related.
i am also not denying that CO2 and global temperature is related. unfortunately for Al Gore global temperature rise is the cause and CO2 increase is the effect.
in case of brain size and hunting lifestyle - the two apparently drove each other. bigger brain made man able to hunt ( using weapons ) while a hunting lifestyle in turn put evolutionary pressure on man to grow an even bigger brain.
macronutrient breakdown of diet at best had a secondary role here.
our brains became most powerful not because of what we ate but because of how we used to get that food - namely using weapons. wolves, tigers and lions are relatively dumb despite being carnivores - because they don't need to make any special tools to hunt.
it is because humans have:
1 - an opposing thumb
2 - can't run very fast, and don't have huge claws
that the only way for us to hunt was by using brains.
go back to the timeline - the cause must precede the effect. how could we have started hunting BEFORE inventing weapons ? and how could we have invented weapons if we needed meat to grow a brain that could invent them ?
your theory is bogus :)
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in other words humans are top of the food chain because we are the smartest - not the other way around.
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you seem to live in the fantasy world. the studies could have proven that the brain decreased 8% but the cause of this is pure speculation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio
mice are herbivores, and have the same size brain as humans relative to their body mass.
I don't see what that proves. The brains of mice are mostly composed of neuronal bundles involved in maintaining homeostasis and motor control, with little devoted to cognitive tasks. So it is irrelevant what the ratio of brain to body mass is with respect to frontal lobe development. The brain grows from the stem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medulla_oblongata
In humans it can generally grow larger or smaller in any individual, and as TD pointed out it grows larger in Inuit. But the added weight and volume takes place primarily in those regions not dedicated to basic vital functions. You only need so much brain matter for hormonal regulation, motor control, and so on anyhow.
If mice are fed a diet at odds with their genetic programming, I would expect to see similar deficits in brain development. For instance, feeding mice soy or meat instead of their preferred vegetation (I'm just speculating on the actual food to make the point).
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The precursor to human intelligence was actually evolved long before the appearance of the great herbivore apes. The proto-primates were insectivores that had to develop a weaselly brain that was the template for human intelligence. The evolving primates were forced to abandon the insectivore way of life and evolved to eat more plants, but the essence of a carnivore lay dormant within recessive genes. These genes were reactivated in our ancestors with the reintroduction of a more carnivorous diet.
The addition of large amounts of animal flesh to the diet is what gave our ancestors the raw materials to power the next stage of mutations that resulted in greatly increased size and function of the brain. Without large amounts of animal proteins and fatty acids, those brain increasing mutations would not have happened.
Our genetic code experienced a quantum leap over the past couple of million of years that propelled us to the top of the food chain. The changes occured parallel with the larger reliance on meat. The corolation went hand in hand. The more meat the apeman ate the larger and more complex the brain became, the smarter they became the more meat they were able to attain,and so on. This is what drove us to the greatness of the top rankin preditor.
There are other forces involved in our rise to intellegence, but this is my theory in a nutshell.
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go back to the timeline - the cause must precede the effect. how could we have started hunting BEFORE inventing weapons ? and how could we have invented weapons if we needed meat to grow a brain that could invent them ?
your theory is bogus :)
No, the weapons likely evolved. You are posing a scenario where humans suddenly invented all kinds of weapons (strawman argument). The first hunting weapons were probably pokey sticks used to spear fish in water or something crude like that. Fish are meat but unlike mastadons we don't need to fear them (unless we are talking about whales or something). Eating that meat allowed the brain to grow bigger when the DNA mutated in such an advantageous direction, which was selected for and favored by the environment.
You are saying that the current environment (no hunting, everyone on welfare or entitled) is, evolutionarily, one in which smaller/less developed brains can flourish and be selected for, as if smaller brains were an advantage. This is incorrect.
The advantage has nothing to do with brain size (after all, I know some geniuses who have not worked in years and are basically milking the system, not that I advocate that). Social patterns and norms are such that mates are not chosen, at least primarily, based on intellect. What reason is there for people to seek a mate smarter than them, or less intelligent? Such considerations have little merit in modern industrial society. Since mates who seek to reproduce and eventually become a family unit also must sustain their offspring for many years in order for them to carry on the genes of the parents, it seems as though the hallmark of success is stability. I see it as irrelevant whether that comes through welfare or a steady job (or jobs).
Your theory also assumes that intelligence is hereditary, but heritage may be a small or insignificant factor. Environmental factors such as nutrition may be more important.
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wake up and smell the coffee - half an ounce of chia seed oil contains as much omega 3 as the entire human brain.
http://www.amazon.com/Virgin-Chia-12oz-Glass-Bottle/dp/B004PWMQKG/ref=sr_1_1?s=miscellaneous&ie=UTF8&qid=1299883679&sr=1-1
that's actually why i don't use chia oil - it has TOO MUCH omega 3. i just blend chia seeds in my Vitamix - they also add thickness to my smoothie.
Chia seeds contain ALA (Alpha-linolenic acid). An ounce contains 13% oil (57% of which is ALA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chia_seed)
It is EPA (Eicosapentanoic acid) that the body uses to make eicosanoids, plostaglandins, etc... so your body must convert ALA into EPA. This is a 3 step process that requires Delta 6 Desaturase in the first step, elongase enzyme in the second step, and Delta 5 Desaturase in the third step. It is an inefficient process, the maximum that can be expected is about 6% of the ALA being converted to EPA.
But Delta 6 Desaturase and Delta 5 Desaturase are needed by the body for metabolizing Omega-6 fatty acids, so competition for the use of these enzymes usually means even less than 6% ALA is converted into EPA.
Half an ounce of Chia seeds will give you 4915mg*0.5*6%=147.45mg of usable Omega-3 fatty acids most optimistically, but realistically it will be half that or lower, on the order of 50-75mg. You are getting less Omega-3 FAs from Chia seeds than you think.
And with your Chia seeds you also get a dose of antinutrients (phytates and lectins).
Large amounts of seeds are hardly paleo, the humans that thrived and passed on their genes got most of their Omega-3 FAs from meat and fish, not seeds. Better to stick with raw meat.
For more information see:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/research-review-extremely-limited-synthesis-of-long-chain-polyunsaturates-in-adults-implications-for-their-dietary-essentiality-and-use-as-supplements.html
and Primal Body, Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas
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what you all fail to realize is human brain takes more than a decade to grow to full size. most other animals have their brains develop in a little more than a year. if any other animal on whatever diet it had continued to grow its brain for 10+ years well it would be like a martian. simply put diet is NOT a factor in brain size at all.
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what you all fail to realize is human brain takes more than a decade to grow to full size. most other animals have their brains develop in a little more than a year. if any other animal on whatever diet it had continued to grow its brain for 10+ years well it would be like a martian. simply put diet is NOT a factor in brain size at all.
Wrong again. Carnivores tend to be more intelligent than herbivores, so clearly diet is an important factor as regards intelligence.
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Wrong again. Carnivores tend to be more intelligent than herbivores, so clearly diet is an important factor as regards intelligence.
and doctors tend to be more intelligent than janitors - this obviously could only be because doctors eat a healthier diet !
also animals are more intelligent than plants, so this definitely proves that chlorophyll causes brain damage !
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what you all fail to realize is human brain takes more than a decade to grow to full size. most other animals have their brains develop in a little more than a year. if any other animal on whatever diet it had continued to grow its brain for 10+ years well it would be like a martian. simply put diet is NOT a factor in brain size at all.
But their brains don't continue to develop...
Proteus do you live under a bridge?
Read what Sabertooth wrote.
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what you all fail to realize is human brain takes more than a decade to grow to full size. most other animals have their brains develop in a little more than a year. if any other animal on whatever diet it had continued to grow its brain for 10+ years well it would be like a martian. simply put diet is NOT a factor in brain size at all.
Your argument here neither supports nor refutes the nutrition theory of human brain size development.
One could argue that since the human brain develops in over a decade, nutrition is vitally important during that time, affecting how large it grows. Or one could argue that it isn't, that nutrition is at best secondary to other environmental pressures (you suggested hunting/using the brain for survival). But I don't see how length of development (10+ years versus one) supports one theory over the other.
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Too much two dimensional thinking on a multi-dimensional subject
The fact is the genetic code is a multidimensional phenomenon that is still not fully understood. It has the capacity to proactively adapt to both positive and negative environmental conditions. Our particular code could of became attuned to the reality that larger brains gave us a survival advantage, and there was a perfect storm of occurrences, primarily the addition of Foods rich in proteins DHA, and other brain building fatty acids that are primarily responsible for the martian like qualities of the human brain.
The Idea that something like chia seeds could provide the same level of nutrition that lead to the development of the human mind is ridiculous.
There is an other nutritional based theory that could explain the human brains great leap forward prior to the development of sophisticated hunting techniques. Tribes of ape-men who gathered mollusk, shellfish,snails, crabs and fish that were caught by hand without the need for sophisticated hunting methods. The coastal and creek dwellers had found the ultimate source of brain food.
The high DHA content of their food source could be the main component that facilitated the epigenetic mutations that lead to the epic size and power of the human mind. The high level of eicosanoid generating DHA within the diet of coastal dwellers could in itself have triggered the genetic code to forge the changes needed to build such a brain. Without the large amount of DHA provided by cracking open shell fish or whatever else they could capture on the waters edge, then the evolution of our minds would have remained retarded.
The land based ancestors of Dolphins and whales had also found an easy source of nutrient dense food by the waters edge, and they had evolved into the second most intellectual animal species while on a carnivorous diet. If they had the advantage of thumbs the perhaps they could have developed an intelligence superior to ours, but because they lack the hands to construct tools and build establishments, they remain second best, but I do wonder what powers of consciousness they do possess even with their handicap.
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http://www.economist.com/node/16214142
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The house of cards which is the human brain and the intelligence contained within, is precariously perched , and was built on a foundational diet high in Fatty acids and proteins derived from animal foods. These animal food elements are essential for maintaining optimal function. The modern diets that are devoid of the DHA rich foods that were used by the ape men to develop and maintain larger brains, are obviosly responsible for the decline in brain size and function of modern people . This decline is easily measured by basic scientific inquiry. The study's that prove that even slight deficiency in DHA can lead to retardation, as well as severe health issues are extremely convincing.
On a personal note, I have tried flax oil and even ate some soaked chia seeds, and had terrible experiences with decline in health and mental function. (Chia and flax are not fit for human consumption, based on my own experience) Consider yourself warned, if you are one of the poor fools who still believe otherwise.
On an other personal note, I ate about a pint of raw oysters last night and feel such foods have helped me reached a new peak of metal acuity. Its amazing how just a few servings of raw sea food a week can improve ones thinking. This is more than just my imagination, before this diet I had sever decline in mental functioning and clarity of thought, as well as a plethora of physical health issues, that kept me from even being able to be happy. Now I have found a happiness that I don't think was possible before, which is a good sign that I am doing something right. Not only My own happiness, but I have applied what I have learned to raising my children and so far the results are amazing.
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look guys, your arguments are mostly crap, but thank you for bringing up the whole DHA vs ALA issue. i heard that fish oil is the best source of W3 before, and bought fish oil capsules for my parents to help with THEIR diet, but for myself i continued relying on blended seeds ( hemp and chia )
i didn't think conversion rate was so low. now i will either add some fish oil to my own diet or increase my seed-based W3 intake by going for that pure chia oil after all, rather than blending seeds.
if ALA is just a precursor, it makes me less afraid of overdosing on it.
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http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pHINwjeuF9gC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=DHA+in+ruminant+fat&source=bl&ots=_qTcTbaDfh&sig=cqNlpyarrxI32C10T25q63NydaA&hl=en&ei=uqR7TdeSA5KHhQeuma3zBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=DHA%20in%20ruminant%20fat&f=false
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On a personal note, I have tried flax oil and even ate some soaked chia seeds, and had terrible experiences with decline in health and mental function. (Chia and flax are not fit for human consumption, based on my own experience) Consider yourself warned, if you are one of the poor fools who still believe otherwise.
seeds are packed with enzyme inhibitors specifically to prevent getting digested so they can pass through your digestive system and plant themselves in the soil intact. this is why at the very least you have to soak and blend them BUT i think it may not be enough. i think consuming the oil extracted from them would be much better. have you tried using oil extracted from flax or chia ?
On an other personal note, I ate about a pint of raw oysters last night and feel such foods have helped me reached a new peak of metal acuity. Its amazing how just a few servings of raw sea food a week can improve ones thinking. This is more than just my imagination, before this diet I had sever decline in mental functioning and clarity of thought, as well as a plethora of physical health issues, that kept me from even being able to be happy. Now I have found a happiness that I don't think was possible before, which is a good sign that I am doing something right. Not only My own happiness, but I have applied what I have learned to raising my children and so far the results are amazing.
i would LOVE to add raw seafood to my diet. do you know what is the parasite situation with oysters ? shrimp ?
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http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pHINwjeuF9gC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=DHA+in+ruminant+fat&source=bl&ots=_qTcTbaDfh&sig=cqNlpyarrxI32C10T25q63NydaA&hl=en&ei=uqR7TdeSA5KHhQeuma3zBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=DHA%20in%20ruminant%20fat&f=false
ok ok i get it ! fish and animals contain DHA, plants only precursor.
but tell me ( and i know dairy is not paleo, but i like cream cheese ) - which would be a better source of DHA - fatty meats ? liver ? eggs ? or milk fat ?
since i started posting here a few days ago i have started tossing whole eggs into my smoothies where before the only fat in them was from seeds.
does an omega 3 egg contain DHA ?
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Yes it is.
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Yes it is.
how so ?
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how so ?
Oh sorry I just read the facts and it doesnt.
Currently there are many products on the market which claim to contain health promoting "omega 3", but contain only ALA, not EPA or DHA. These products contain mainly plant oils and must be converted by the body to create DHA and are therefore less effective. DHA and EPA are made by microalgae that live in seawater.
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You're not being too bright. The fact is that those studies showed that brain-size decreased by 8 percent once we switched from the Palaeolithic era to the Neolithic era. The only major change around that time was a major reduction of animal food in the human diet and a corresponding consumption of grains, dairy and legumes. Given that the Eskimoes have the largest brain-sizes and were until recently eating all-animal food diets(well, 96 to 99 percent at least), that supports the notion that it was the eating of meat that made human brains bigger and that a reduction in meat-consumption led to a smaller brain-size.
How do Eskimo brains compare in size to those pre-agricultural brains which are said to have decreased in size by 8% to the modern day?
I ask because Esqimaux also have access to a lot of omega-3 specifically, from fish/seal oils etc, as well as having a diet high in raw animal food and just animal food in general.
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look guys, your arguments are mostly crap, but thank you for bringing up the whole DHA vs ALA issue. i heard that fish oil is the best source of W3 before, and bought fish oil capsules for my parents to help with THEIR diet, but for myself i continued relying on blended seeds ( hemp and chia )
i didn't think conversion rate was so low. now i will either add some fish oil to my own diet or increase my seed-based W3 intake by going for that pure chia oil after all, rather than blending seeds.
if ALA is just a precursor, it makes me less afraid of overdosing on it.
Excuse me but I don't think what I have posted is crap, these are my beliefs and If you have any intelligent argument to prove me, or who ever else you may be responding to, wrong, then I am sure we all would love to here it.
as for your theory about the conversion rate being high, it may be possible while one is young to be able to handle large amounts of ala's along with other volatile plant oils, but over time(mark my words) the anti nutrients that are contained within if consumed in high enough amounts, will ravage your hormonal systems, and it will result in negative health effects over time.
How old are you and how long have you been using plant oils?
the negative effects may take years to show, but mark my words you are putting yourself at risk for major health issues. It may take ten years or more depending on how well you are constituted, but if you continue to consume enough hemp, chia, or whatever other seeds you are blending, you will experience negative health effects.
There are many examples of long lived and healthy people who used raw animal fats as a primary source of nourishment.
What examples do you have that the oils of seeds are somehow supperior?
Excess ALA can be harmful once the body ages and becomes less able to convert it efficiently. There are also many toxic byproducts in plant oils that an older body wont be able to cope with.
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seeds are packed with enzyme inhibitors specifically to prevent getting digested so they can pass through your digestive system and plant themselves in the soil intact. this is why at the very least you have to soak and blend them BUT i think it may not be enough. i think consuming the oil extracted from them would be much better. have you tried using oil extracted from flax or chia ?
I was pre-diabetic and had other problems and I though that eating a salad with flax oil and a couple of spoon fulls of soaked chia seed befor meals would help lower the glycimic load. It did work somewhat at first but overtime the anti nutrients caused me more harm than good.
I think it lowered my vitality some how.
i would LOVE to add raw seafood to my diet. do you know what is the parasite situation with oysters ? shrimp ?
You are a newbie, I forget sometimes that not everyone that post here has been fully initiated.
My father was a trained biologist that actualy studied parisites in shell fish; there are numbers of differnt ameombas and such that can live symbioticaly with other life forms without causing any harm. My father thought I was crazy for eatting raw clams and oysters, but as you will learn here, raw foods even if they contain a few ameobas are generaly without any harmfull effects. The food poisoning issues with shell fish are usualy linked to cooked foods.Every now and then someone here will get a reaction to raw shellfish, but it isn't serious and resolves after a couple of days of diarrhea. Once your digestive system becomes fully adapted to raw paleo then you can eat about anything without worry.
I myself along with many others here eat rotten meat as part of a healthy diet, sounds crazy at first but bacteria in rotten meat can be beneficial.
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look guys, your arguments are mostly crap, but thank you for bringing up the whole DHA vs ALA issue. i heard that fish oil is the best source of W3 before, and bought fish oil capsules for my parents to help with THEIR diet, but for myself i continued relying on blended seeds ( hemp and chia )
i didn't think conversion rate was so low. now i will either add some fish oil to my own diet or increase my seed-based W3 intake by going for that pure chia oil after all, rather than blending seeds.
if ALA is just a precursor, it makes me less afraid of overdosing on it.
In order to overdose on dietary omega-3 from the animal kingdom you would have to be force fed nothing but foods high in omega-3 until you were sick. It is impossible if you are simply eating meat and fish high in omega-3s. Your fears are of your own making, I'm afraid.
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http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pHINwjeuF9gC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=DHA+in+ruminant+fat&source=bl&ots=_qTcTbaDfh&sig=cqNlpyarrxI32C10T25q63NydaA&hl=en&ei=uqR7TdeSA5KHhQeuma3zBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=DHA%20in%20ruminant%20fat&f=false
Now I am even more excited about eating my lamb brain, thanks for the informative link.
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ok ok i get it ! fish and animals contain DHA, plants only precursor.
but tell me ( and i know dairy is not paleo, but i like cream cheese ) - which would be a better source of DHA - fatty meats ? liver ? eggs ? or milk fat ?
since i started posting here a few days ago i have started tossing whole eggs into my smoothies where before the only fat in them was from seeds.
does an omega 3 egg contain DHA ?
The best eggs are pasture raised free range eggs, they can have an omega-6 to omega-3 ratio of close to 1:1, I am not sure of the actual omega-3 content, let me see if I can pull something up...
According to this:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/111/2
A medium egg has 4.4 grams of fat, which breaks down further to:
Total Omega-3 fatty acids
32.6
mg
Total Omega-6 fatty acids
505
mg
If these were in balance it would be 269mg of each fatty acid, so my guess would be that there is something like 200-250mg of Omega-3 in each pasture raised free range egg.
It is in the fat though so regarding your question of best source that would have to be a fat, such as suet, lard or cream from an animal raised on pasture.
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the negative effects may take years to show, but mark my words you are putting yourself at risk for major health issues. It may take ten years or more depending on how well you are constituted, but if you continue to consume enough hemp, chia, or whatever other seeds you are blending, you will experience negative health effects.
Take it from a former vegan, vegetables are nutritionally inferior and the body will slowly deteriorate as a result of consuming too much vegetation and seeds/nuts and too little meat and other animal products. My brothers, though vegetarians and not vegans, also have experienced degeneration. One has had testicular cancer (at 32 years of age), the other IBS and colitis (at age 26). We grew up all active and eating what would have been considered a healthy diet at the time, your basic food pyramid and plenty of whole foods. Cutting out meat, fish and (in my case) dairy has been very destructive, though only 2 of us have come to our senses (one is still punishing himself with vegetarianism).
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My father was a trained biologist that actualy studied parisites in shell fish; there are numbers of differnt ameombas and such that can live symbioticaly with other life forms without causing any harm. My father thought I was crazy for eatting raw clams and oysters, but as you will learn here, raw foods even if they contain a few ameobas are generaly without any harmfull effects. The food poisoning issues with shell fish are usualy linked to cooked foods.Every now and then someone here will get a reaction to raw shellfish, but it isn't serious and resolves after a couple of days of diarrhea. Once your digestive system becomes fully adapted to raw paleo then you can eat about anything without worry.
i'm not afraid of bacteria and general parasites like amoebas and stuff. i am only afraid of parasites that are specifically evolved to live in flesh. i don't want no worms eating my organs for breakfast. i trust my immune system to sort out bacteria and crap like that.
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so you fear the worms, There is no way to guarantee that you can avoid some type of worm infection, but from the experience of an entire community of raw animal food lovers, there is nothing to worry about unless you have full blown Aids or something, Even if you have a severe immune issues, the benefits of raw animal foods out weigh any fears of worms.
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Take it from a former vegan, vegetables are nutritionally inferior and the body will slowly deteriorate as a result of consuming too much vegetation and seeds/nuts and too little meat and other animal products.
I wholeheartedly agree.
My own experience proved this. Especially plant fats are really bad. The only exception seems to be coconut fat. Today I'm even very skeptical about avocadoes.
Löwenherz
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I wholeheartedly agree.
My own experience proved this. Especially plant fats are really bad. The only exception seems to be coconut fat. Today I'm even very skeptical about avocadoes.
Löwenherz
Check out:
http://www.backyardnature.net/chiapas/avocado.htm
Wild avocados are very small compared to the stuff you find in stores and in farmer's markets. I think they are okay for human consumption in very limited amounts, just like honey and other fruits that have been bred to be absurdly large and sweet.
Coconut is mostly saturated fat so it is closer to animal fat in that respect, which is one reason why it may be easier for humans to metabolize.
The following article explains well how MCFAs found in coconut oil can benefit health:
http://www.preventionisbest.com/site/saturatedfat.html
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now we are back on topic
I eat coconuts as my main plant food. Once I got adapted to its laxitive effect, it can really work wonders. I eat about half a coconut a day now
I also started eating tomatoes again and will eat an avacado about every other day.
I still avoid most fruits because of my past blood sugar and candida issues , but low glycemic fruits and vegetables like avocados,lemons and tomatoes seem to be alright.
sugary fruits give me runny stools on top of making me feel bad
What I am doing now is working out great for me.
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now we are back on topic
I eat coconuts as my main plant food. Once I got adapted to its laxitive effect, it can really work wonders. I eat about half a coconut a day now
I want to include coconut in my diet. How do you eat it? Doesn't it have a really hard shell? I must admit my complete ignorance of coconut, I have never eaten one whole.
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You eat it with the mouth... ;D
Seriously, just break the shell by knocking it on a concrete block or a big stone. Then get the meat with a rounded knife. But first, make a hole with a sharp knife, so you can extract the water and drink it. There are 3 small spots at about 120° of each other. One is softer, it's the one to pierce. To break the shell, knock it preferably on the middle facing mid-distance between the 2 other spots.
Don't do like him! (http://www.snotr.com/video/2014)
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You eat it with the mouth... ;D
Seriously, just break the shell by knocking it on a concrete block or a big stone. Then get the meat with a rounded knife. But first, make a hole with a sharp knife, so you can extract the water and drink it. There are 3 small spots at about 120° of each other. One is softer, it's the one to pierce. To break the shell, knock it preferably on the middle facing mid-distance between the 2 other spots.
Thanks, I watched a Youtube video on eating coconut, the guy used a hammer and screwdriver. I don't like the idea of having all kinds of tools and paraphernalia to eat, right now I am happy with nothing but a plate, a carving knife and some meat hooks. I like eating with my hands.
It would be a great summer fruit to throw on the ground or against a rock, sit down and eat.
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Coconut is mostly saturated fat
fun fact - 100% chocolate contains more saturated fat than lard ...
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I want to include coconut in my diet. How do you eat it? Doesn't it have a really hard shell? I must admit my complete ignorance of coconut, I have never eaten one whole.
He he, we've got coconuts everyday.
I promise to take a video of me opening and eating coconuts just for you.
Remind me if I forget.
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I agree that a lot depends on how you define vegetables and fruits. I prefer juicing vegetables like celery, spinach, camote (sweet potato) tops, parsley, cilantro, and carrots. Put I also like to include fruit like zucchini and cucumber in my juices. I don't eat a lot of vegetables but mostly juice them. The fruits I eat are lots of tomato, cucumber, avocados, and plenty of coconuts (juice and meat). I also occasionally eat whole fruit like watermelon, banana, oranges, apples, and berries. There are good vitamins and nutrients that are better sourced from some amount of vegetable juices and fruit but you still need mostly fat and animal protein.
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To open a coconut
I take the back end of a meat cleaver and hammer out a little clip, then cut a small square where I can pour the water out from(it takes practice but I have gotten good at it). Then I will chip the shell away as much as is needed to expose bite sized flesh pieces to cut out.(it works great for me)
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fun fact - 100% chocolate contains more saturated fat than lard ...
Probably explains some of its health benefits.
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He he, we've got coconuts everyday.
I promise to take a video of me opening and eating coconuts just for you.
Remind me if I forget.
I can't wait. 8)
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I agree that a lot depends on how you define vegetables and fruits. I prefer juicing vegetables like celery, spinach, camote (sweet potato) tops, parsley, cilantro, and carrots. Put I also like to include fruit like zucchini and cucumber in my juices. I don't eat a lot of vegetables but mostly juice them. The fruits I eat are lots of tomato, cucumber, avocados, and plenty of coconuts (juice and meat). I also occasionally eat whole fruit like watermelon, banana, oranges, apples, and berries. There are good vitamins and nutrients that are better sourced from some amount of vegetable juices and fruit but you still need mostly fat and animal protein.
AMEN ! ! !
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I eat coconuts as my main plant food. Once I got adapted to its laxitive effect, it can really work wonders. I eat about half a coconut a day now
Do you eat the hard white meat of mature coconuts?
I have no problems with self made coconut milk and coconut cream, but if I eat the hard flesh I always get massive digestive discomfort. I think my system can't handle the extreme hard fiber. It always causes bloating and yellowish runny burning stools if I eat more than a little bit.
Löwenherz
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I find fruits, nuts, and etc useless and food sensitive prone/allergy prone and useless except for leaves mainly lettuce, arugala, etc green leaves.
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How do Eskimo brains compare in size to those pre-agricultural brains which are said to have decreased in size by 8% to the modern day?
I ask because Esqimaux also have access to a lot of omega-3 specifically, from fish/seal oils etc, as well as having a diet high in raw animal food and just animal food in general.
No idea as there has not been an official comparison between the two. Perhaps check brain volumes in each case in separate studies?
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I ate a coconut. A whole coconut. I am so full I don't think I will want to eat the rest of the day. It was delicious!
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I ate a coconut. A whole coconut. I am so full I don't think I will want to eat the rest of the day. It was delicious!
Was it the soft fresh kind? I've only ever had the old dry kind.
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How do Eskimo brains compare in size to those pre-agricultural brains which are said to have decreased in size by 8% to the modern day?
I ask because Esqimaux also have access to a lot of omega-3 specifically, from fish/seal oils etc, as well as having a diet high in raw animal food and just animal food in general.
A very similar question was asked and discussed at this thread recently:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/brain-size-t4725/msg63890/#msg63890
They say our brains have shrunk 10% since adopting an agriculture based diet thousands of years ago. Well does anyone know about Inuit/Eskimo brain size since they have been still eating mainly raw carnivore for much longer then anyone else?
And it links to another thread where it was discussed:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/brain-size/msg23790/#msg23790
Quote from: TylerDurden on January 03, 2010, 05:54:00 pm
... What is interesting is that the Inuit have the largest skulls,. reportedly, of all humans(though again that isn't necessarily a sign of greater intelligence).
... "The French cranium measurers ran into serious problems in Greenland. They were working from the theory that there was a linear relation between a person's intelligence and the size of his skull. They discovered that the [Inuit] Greenlanders, whom they regarded as a transitional form of ape, had the largest skulls in the world." --Peter Hoeg, Smilla's Sense of Snow, pp. 17-18
It seems to be a popular topic.
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Was it the soft fresh kind? I've only ever had the old dry kind.
The meat was a little hard, I think. I don't know as I have never had fresh, this is my first time eating whole coconut.
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Wild avocados are very small compared to the stuff you find in stores and in farmer's markets. I think they are okay for human consumption in very limited amounts, just like honey and other fruits that have been bred to be absurdly large and sweet.
Coconut is mostly saturated fat so it is closer to animal fat in that respect, which is one reason why it may be easier for humans to metabolize.
....
Wild coconuts are also smaller than domestic ones, as with many fruits and veg.
domestic coconut:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Koeh-187.jpg/220px-Koeh-187.jpg)
(http://www.sailusfood.com/wp-content/uploads/coconut_kobbarikaya.JPG)
wild coconut:
(http://www.coconutstudio.com/Wild%20Coconuts_files/P3140440_wild_coco_sliced_x.jpg)
(http://www.coconutstudio.com/Wild%20Coconuts_files/P3140437_open_coco_x.jpg)
According to this source - http://www.coconutstudio.com/Wild%20coconuts.htm - domestic coconuts contain four times as much flesh as wild coconuts and have much less husk.
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I would expect the wild ones to be smaller. Nice pics.
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Yup, and I would expect wild avocadoes to be smaller too, as with most wild fruits--and thanks for the pic of the wild avocado, I hadn't seen one yet.
Personally, I found that I digest avocadoes much better than coconuts, though not perfectly. I particularly have a problem with young coconut water, coconut oil, Artisana raw coconut butter, coconut cream and green coconut flesh. Dried mature coconut flesh seems to give me the least problems of coconut foods, but I can only seem to handle a relatively small to moderate amount even of that. Small amounts of coconut oil and raw coconut butter give me nausea, and I wasn't able to gradually adapt to them over time, despite expecting that I would be able to based on some of the extremely positive recommendations for these foods here and by the WAPF and elsewhere. I suspect that it's partly because I have difficulty digesting MCTs, whereas I have less problems digesting foods high in monounsaturated fats, such as avocadoes, bone marrow, animal suet (which is also high in long-chain saturated fats), and olive oil. Plus, maybe green coconut flesh and water is harder on my stomach. I still like the flavor of coconut, as I enjoy the taste of coconut sorbet, so it would be nice if some day I could handle coconut fat better, as it would expand my quality-fat options, and I put a lot of effort into making it work, but after a while it appeared to be effort and time poorly invested.
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I have no problems eating fresh young green coconut and consume 4-5 a day since they are cheap and plentiful in the Philippines. I find they really help improve my skin as well. Coconut water and young soft coconut meat are great saturated fat to consume! http://bit.ly/g7VO7Y
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"opinions are changing on whether saturated fats are the arterial villains they were made out to be ..." http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/01/5-tropical-fruits-that-can-change-your-life.aspx
At long last! Still a long way to go, though.
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Here are the fruits I eat from time to time. I eat only small quantities of most fruit except for young green whole coconut which I end up drinking a lot of during the day. The meat of the young coconut is very soft like jelly and very easy to digest.
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"Homo sapiens alone walked out of Africa some 200,000 years, spread quickly throughout Southeast Asia & Europe, "
You do know this is a THEORY, right?
They found a 'white' humanoid (white hair, pale, pink skin) about 4 feet high and around 47 million years old in central Europe. They named it IDA. This fossil is believed to be the first link to european white man...and it blew the entire Out of Africa out of theory. They found IDA in 2008 I think.
Man didn't walk out of Africa, the Supercontinent broke up and giant land masses drifted away, creating all our human races we have today.
If we all came out of Africa, we'd all have the same blood type. Some of us are RH negative, how do you explain that?
Nowhere else on this planet have Kangoroo fossils been found, nowhere. Why would this animal not be on all other continents, knowing we once had a Supercontinent?
Is it possible that an animal can evolve into something else over millions of years, like animals that are only seen on Galapagos Islands? ABSOLUTELY!
Nobody walked out of Africa and turned white, that's ridiculous.
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You know Africa is connected to Europe by land, right?
You also know that, in the out of africa theory, homo heidelbergensis split in two - sapiens and neanderthalensis, and Neanderthalensis was already in europe before sapiens got there?
You also know that Australophithecus Afarensis, the precursor to homo in the out of Africa theory, was white?
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http://www.backyardnature.net/chiapas/avocado.htm
Wild avocados are very small compared to the stuff you find in stores and in farmer's markets. I think they are okay for human consumption in very limited amounts, just like honey and other fruits that have been bred to be absurdly large and sweet.
I don't know, as I've eaten from avocado trees avos that you never see in stores, very large, smooth, green and the flesh a watery flavor/texture but good, if not at all nutty like the haas. This was not in Chiapas though.
Also I've found papayas in the forest bigger than large watermelon, that also taste fine. The fruit on the trees were all odd sizes, much taller trees. The papayas in stores are all even size and much smaller.
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I don't know, as I've eaten from avocado trees avos that you never see in stores, very large, smooth, green and the flesh a watery flavor/texture but good, if not at all nutty like the haas. This was not in Chiapas though.
Those are lowland style avocadoes, native to Guatemala, and now cultivated in Florida. The blacker kind with rough skin are descended from highland avocadoes, that come from colder areas, and are grown heavily in southern California.
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Yup, I got some right now. I made guacamole with fresh jalapeno peppers, and it hit the spot. But I think the key with avocados if you eat them at all is moderation.
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I particularly have a problem with young coconut water, coconut oil, Artisana raw coconut butter, coconut cream and green coconut flesh. Dried mature coconut flesh seems to give me the least problems of coconut foods, but I can only seem to handle a relatively small to moderate amount even of that. Small amounts of coconut oil and raw coconut butter give me nausea, and I wasn't able to gradually adapt to them over time, despite expecting that I would be able to based on some of the extremely positive recommendations for these foods here and by the WAPF and elsewhere.
My own experiences are very similar to yours. Nevertheless I'm a huge fan of raw coconut fat. Let me explain:
First of all I have to mention that my body needed a long time to adapt to this fat. I remember that I already felt attracted to the taste and smell of all these "exotic" coconut products during christmas time in my childhood. But 30-40 years later, when I first tried pure fresh raw coconut cream as recommended by Aajonus I vomited like never before! Raw coconut fat is very saturated and feels very powerful and cleansing. I needed several weeks to get used to it. Today I can eat as much as I want without nausea or stomach trouble.
Raw fresh coconut milk and raw fresh coconut cream from unspoiled (!) coconuts work very well for me. ALL other coconut products cause problems. I say unspoiled because over 90% of all mature coconuts we can get in Germany are completely spoiled, unfortunately, and people don't know it. The water in the nut gives easily information on the quality of the meat.
Coconut water from young coconuts (in higher amounts) gives me diarrhea and candida like symptoms. Coconut oil makes me feel nauseated. It tastes terrible. I think Aajonus is right that coconut oil is NOT raw. And it's stripped of all the other nutrients. That makes me even more skeptical. Somehow the natural nutrient balance is destroyed. Raw coconut milk is phantastic, coconut oil and canned coconut milk are disastrous for me. What a big difference. And funnily enough many people in the streets of Sri Lanka exactly reflected my own feelings: "coconut oil not good, coconut oil not good!" and "coconut milk very very healthy!". In their traditional diet they used self-made coconut milk every day. Today you can see huge plastic bottles of "healthy vegetable oil" everywhere.
I can only eat small amounts of the hard white meat from mature coconuts. Otherwise I get MASSIVE trouble in my gi tract, especially in the colon. The harsh fiber of the meat feels very harmful. That must be the reason that nobody in the tropics eats hard coconut meat in significant amounts. The very soft jelly meat from very young unripe coconuts is OK for me, but I don't eat it either because it's very low in fat und therefore not very nutritious.
Artisana coconut butter contains the fiber of the mature coconuts. Although it's very finely ground, it irritates my colon. Furthermore it gives me nausea. I'm surprised that it works so well for Sabertooth.
So, I really love coconuts, but I avoid all coconut products. My body is a rebellish consumer..
Greetings from Florida
Löwenherz
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I say unspoiled because over 90% of all mature coconuts we can get in Germany are completely spoiled, unfortunately, and people don't know it.
You mean they don't know it until they crack it open and look inside? Or do you mean it's sometimes difficult to tell even once you've cracked it open and can see inside it?
You are definitely right that a large % are already spoiled in the shop. I often get coconuts though where it's difficult to tell. Sometimes the coconut water tastes bad, but the meat looks and tastes fine. Or sometimes a small part of the coconut looks discoloured ie spoiled, but the rest looks and tastes fine.
I totally agree btw that homemade fresh raw coconut milk and cream is great stuff. Far superior to coconut oil.
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Raw coconut fat is very saturated and feels very powerful and cleansing. I needed several weeks to get used to it.
I have no noticeable problems at all with saturated raw animal fats. As a matter of fact, raw grassfed suet seems to make me feel better than any other food I've tried so far. I suspect that the issue with coconut fat for me may be the medium chain triglycerides, as they are well known to be nauseating in many people.
I tried EVCO and later Artisana coconut butter, both highly touted by some here and by other rawists and WAPF dieters, for months and they nauseated me more at the end of the experiments than at the beginning. Now I have difficulty eating even mature coconut meat and find the taste unpleasant (I can now detect the taste of the oil in it), whereas in the past I enjoyed small amounts of it. It seems like my experiment with trying to gradually adapt over months to coconut fat actually resulted in developing more of a revulsion for even small amounts of coconut fat. The WAPF and others say that people that medium chain triglycerides nauseate should gradually adapt to coconut fat, and I followed the instructions but they unfortunately didn't work for me. I was hoping it would work because it would add another source of fat for me and I do love the taste of the non-oily part of coconut (for example, coconut sorbet is my favorite sorbet or ice cream type dessert and I can eat it without any nausea, though the added sugar probably helps with that--hmm, that gives me an idea to maybe some day try mixing in raw fermented honey with raw fresh coconut milk or cream).
Raw fresh coconut milk and raw fresh coconut cream from unspoiled (!) coconuts work very well for me.
What about raw fresh coconut water from mature nonspoiled coconuts? How do you make your coconut milk and cream?
ALL other coconut products cause problems. I say unspoiled because over 90% of all mature coconuts we can get in Germany are completely spoiled, unfortunately, and people don't know it. The water in the nut gives easily information on the quality of the meat.
How do you tell which coconut is spoiled? Are you able to tell before you buy them? If you can tell only from the water then are you saying that you have to buy ten coconuts and discard nine to get one good one?
The harsh fiber of the meat feels very harmful. That must be the reason that nobody in the tropics eats hard coconut meat in significant amounts. The very soft jelly meat from very young unripe coconuts is OK for me, but I don't eat it either because it's very low in fat und therefore not very nutritious.
The soft jelly meat is also nauseating for me.
Artisana coconut butter contains the fiber of the mature coconuts. Although it's very finely ground, it irritates my colon. Furthermore it gives me nausea. I'm surprised that it works so well for Sabertooth.
It also tastes dry and horrendous to me. After the praise of it as delicious "ambrosia" I was shocked to discover how disgusting it was to me. Perhaps it's like durian, with a wide range of tastes for different people?
Thanks for sharing your experience, Lowenherz.
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How do you tell which coconut is spoiled? Are you able to tell before you buy them? If you can tell only from the water then are you saying that you have to buy ten coconuts and discard nine to get one good one?
In my opinion the water of a mature coconut must taste fresh and very sweet. If the water is perfect, you can be sure that the meat is equally good. If the water is very sweet the fat content of the meat is usually the highest.
The water becomes sourer and sourer. And in the last stage it becomes super stinky. This 100% rotten stage seems to be standard for the german food market. hehe. Germans are always happy if their food is CHEAP, that's most important. Cars deserve much more dedication and money than food! We have the lowest food prices of all industrial countries in the world. Even Walmart here in the USA is MUCH more expensive. What people usually do: They just throw away the stinky water, eat small amounts of the meat and don't think about it. And they usually don't know how fresh ripe coconut meat should taste. It's still considered a super exotic food.
The problem is mold! The sourer the water the more moldy spots you can find IN the meat. But they are not very easy visible. If I eat such moldy meat I get urticaria and other problems.
It's not possible to see if a coconut is good without tasting the water. But at least I don't have to open them if the water is not ok. It's no joke, I really have to buy 10 coconuts to get one good one. Therefore I use frozen coconut meat from Asia shops as an alternative. Some few importers offer high quality.
I put mature coconut meat in a strong juicer to make coconut cream. Coconut milk is usually made with a blender and sieve.
It's interesting that your body completely rejects all forms of coconut fat. But if I remember correctly, you are not the only one in the paleo sphere.
I'm still not sure if coconut fat can replace animal fats from land mammals. If I had to choose between bison fat and coconut fat, I would prefer bison fat. Beef suet is most often inedible. It depends on the breed. US Angus and Hereford offer the best fats, imo. Whereas suet from scottish Galloways is most often super disgusting and/or inedible, for example.
Löwenherz
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In my opinion the water of a mature coconut must taste fresh and very sweet. If the water is perfect, you can be sure that the meat is equally good. If the water is very sweet the fat content of the meat is usually the highest.
So one can't tell until after buying the coconut, with 9/10 coconuts being inadequate? Doesn't sound like coconuts would be a viable food for people on limited budgets in areas where coconuts aren't cheap or free.
Cars deserve much more dedication and money than food! We have the lowest food prices of all industrial countries in the world.
I agree with your priorities--food over cars--but I'm not going to buy a food that I throw out nine tenths of.
The problem is mold! The sourer the water the more moldy spots you can find IN the meat. But they are not very easy visible. If I eat such moldy meat I get urticaria and other problems.
I don't have a problem with lemon juice and water, so I don't think sourness is the problem for me. Again, the MCT's seem to be the problem for me, as they reportedly are for many people. Why no one seems to accept this is inexplicable to me.
It's not possible to see if a coconut is good without tasting the water. But at least I don't have to open them if the water is not ok. It's no joke, I really have to buy 10 coconuts to get one good one.
Thank you for your honesty on this subject. So refreshing to encounter it.
It's interesting that your body completely rejects all forms of coconut fat. But if I remember correctly, you are not the only one in the paleo sphere.
Yes, others here have reported it and I have read that it is not an uncommon phenomenon.
I'm still not sure if coconut fat can replace animal fats from land mammals. If I had to choose between bison fat and coconut fat, I would prefer bison fat. Beef suet is most often inedible.
Inedible? Not to me. It doesn't taste marvelous, though not bad when good quality--especially when air-dried first and thoroughly chewed--but the benefits and feeling of well being it produces for me make it very worthwhile for me. The well-being it produces is better than any drug or alcohol.
Thanks for sharing your experience, Lowenherz.
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The only place I have found that sells whole coconut that doesn't taste rotted is the whole foods and they cost about 2 dollars a piece.
It's much more economical and delicious for me to just buy my two jars of coconut butter each week. It's 10 dollars a jar at the co-op, and I never have to worry about it being rancid. I spend close to 1200 dollars each year on coconut butter, I am hopelessly addicted to the MCTs.
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Edit:
I agree with your priorities--food over cars--[or perhaps you weren't being ironic and think cars should be a higher priority than food, in which case we differ--to me cars are a necessary evil] but I'm not going to buy a food that I throw out nine tenths of [or even much of the water and some meat--coconuts are rather expensive here.]
It's still considered a super exotic food.
I think it's somewhat still the case here too, LOL, with generally just a half dozen or fewer coconuts at the local markets and small displays holding most of the tropical fruits. Many people here don't know what the tropical fruits that people rave about in this forum are.
I haven't noticed a moldy taste in the water and meat of the coconuts I've tried, just the taste of the oil/fat, even in the water, which nauseates me if I eat more than a little unless sugar is added. Even if the issue is the oil, maybe I could get used to it if I kept at it for months and months, but I don't want to go through all that nausea and lost interest. On the other hand, the idea of adding honey might be worth trying at some point. I haven't heard of anyone doing that, though. I wonder why?