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Messages - PaleoPhil

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301
General Discussion / Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« on: September 01, 2014, 12:33:06 am »
Technical definitions aside, when people talk of a food being "rotten," they normally mean that an unwanted process occurred. "Fermented" is a more clearly positive term and will be less likely to be offputting to others, though even that turns off some squeamish folks. I've seen Internet critics use the word "rotten" when they want to disparage fermented foods and discourage others from trying them.

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General Discussion / Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« on: August 29, 2014, 08:18:05 am »
I found the 2 gallon version at my local Walmart for $10 each, and bought two earlier today. Can't beat that as far as value!
Cool, thanks.

My understanding is that rotting is any decay process, including those involving microbes which are pathogenic to humans. Whereas what people refer to as "fermentation" typically involves beneficial microbes.

When most people talk of rotting, they seem to imply an unwanted process that produces particularly foul odors and dangerous substances. For beneficial processes, people typically use the term "fermentation."

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General Discussion / Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« on: August 27, 2014, 06:34:18 pm »
No studies. Yes, it makes the bones more digestible, and yummy.  :D

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General Discussion / Re: Bone broths best prepared raw, not cooked
« on: August 27, 2014, 06:53:44 am »
Brilliant Eric! This is the sort of useful and little-known info that is the best aspect of this forum. About how long would you estimate that you let the mix ferment? Do you leave the lids loose or take any other precaution to avoid explosion from gasses?

Most people also are unaware that dogs bury bones to not only hide them from other animals, but also to anaerobically ferment them. Thus, a domesticated dog in a fenced-in property that has no fear of his bones being swiped will likely nonetheless bury some if given the chance.

305
Interesting, thanks for the corrections. Too bad I can't correct my post. So is it called the Wai diet because his girlfriend created it, or what? Strange that the article said that Wai is his pseudonym. How is Thijs doing these days? Do you know if any more work was done on his research?

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Who is Wai Genriu, the creator of the "Wai diet"? Some people who follow the "Wai diet" don't know, because for some time the identity was kept confidential. Some even mistakenly guessed that "Wai" is an Asian female.  ;D It turns out that Wai Genriu is a pseudonym used by Thijs Klompmaker, who was a waiter in Amersterdam in the early days of his promoting his diet on the Internet. He eventually revealed his identity publicly:

Amsterdam waiter surprises medical world with osteoporosis publication
Interview, Gezond Nu 2006; 10 (Oct) / page 28-31 (Original in Dutch)
http://www.thijsklompmaker.com/interview.htm

He originally developed his diet as a way to treat his acne. Because his diet was low in calcium, he also developed an interest in the effect of lifetime high calcium intakes on long term bone health.

There are a couple of forums at his website, but they are not particularly active and he himself has not participated in them in some years:

http://www.waiworld.com/waitalk/index.html





https://twitter.com/KlompmakerThijs

307
Here's a timely article on salt that defies conventional wisdom. The link to the full article isn't working yet.
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Low-Salt Diets Increase Your Risk of Death by 27%?
Chris Kresser

The Wall Street Journal recently reported on the longstanding, international debate over salt and sodium guidelines and whether or not our current targets are set too low for optimal health. A new study came out recently in the New England Journal of Medicine supporting the belief that cutting back on sodium too much actually poses health hazards, including premature death. This study found that those who consumed fewer than 3,000 milligrams (mg) of sodium a day had a 27% higher risk of death or a serious event such as a heart attack or stroke in that period than those whose intake was estimated at 3,000 to 6,000 mg. ...


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Journals / Re: DaBoss88's healing schizophrenia journal
« on: August 22, 2014, 05:42:46 am »
Congrats, you DaBoss! ;)

309
Wild animals and wild-like humans prefer fresh blood. The fresher the blood, the greater the concentration of animal starch and other nutrients.

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Hot Topics / Re: Making Good Food Affordable
« on: August 18, 2014, 12:21:47 am »
Interesting that nuts and tubers were some of the most economical sources of Mg. The prebiotics ("nondigestible carbohydrates") in foods like these have also been found to improve Mg bioavailability, making the foods richer in them even more economical sources:

Nondigestible Carbohydrates and Mineral Bioavailability
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/129/7/1434S.full

The tiger nut (aka tigernut, chufa, etc.) is a nutty tuber that is also high in both Mg and prebiotics. Interestingly, its nutritional profile complements red meat well, as though the two were made to go together.
http://freetheanimal.com/2014/01/tigernuts-tuber-tubery.html

311
Hot Topics / Re: Blue Ice Fermented Cod Liver Oil Question
« on: August 17, 2014, 11:59:32 pm »
Thanks for the clarifications and info, Van.

I've said this before,, just because some ancient peoples ate a certain food doesn't mean it's healthy for us.
Of course, and I've also said I'm not into re-enactment many times before, including in my avatar description. Did you not notice it? I haven't said otherwise with CLO, so I'm not sure why you're repeating that now. It's also possible to go too far to the extreme in the other direction. Why should many generations of experience by multiple peoples just be thrown out for no good reason? Wouldn't that be unscientific? Anthropologists and evolutionary biologists certainly take it seriously. It's not about one form of evidence versus another. I keep my mind open to and use ALL the valid evidence available to me and don't exclude evidence just because it doesn't fit my pre-existing hypothesis (which would be an example of confirmation bias).

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You've quoted Ray Peat with applaud from time to time.   Yet you don't seem to heed his warning on pufa's?
Why would I have to agree with every jot and tittle of what Ray Peat says about PUFA's just because I agree with him on some things? Wouldn't that also be unscientific? I explained this already with regards to Jack Kruse, after Iguana asked me about him. I don’t feel the need to absolutely agree with anyone on everything.

Besides, I do share Peat's concern on PUFA's, I just don't fear them to the extreme that he does. Have you seen what I've written about hormesis and "The dose makes the poison"? If it wasn't understandable, below is a link to a blog article on it that summarizes it pretty nicely. However, the author apparently initially missed that sensible hormesis isn't about focusing only on hormetic stress (eustress) therapies--it's about using and balancing both eustress and de-stress therapies. The article is nonetheless especially relevant because he also talks about how Ray Peat and Peat-atarians don't take hormesis sufficiently into account. Here's an excerpt:
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Peat-atarians and Fear of Hormetic Stress
Jan 11, 2013 by MAS
http://criticalmas.com/2013/01/peat-atarians-and-fear-of-hormetic-stress
"In [the Peat-atarians'] obsession with reducing all forms of stress, they go too far. From my readings and more importantly, my personal experience, lack of stress builds fragility. The key is finding ways to episodically, not chronically, expose your body to safe stressors. This teaches your body resilience. This is called hormesis."
In case it still isn't clear, just because I posted a link to that article doesn't mean I agree with every bit of it, nor am I asking you to.

I already provided in another thread the lab report re: oxidation from Green Pastures before. I don't get the sense that you're going to accept that report because of the source, are you? Of course no one besides a seller will ever pay for a study on RFPCLO. There just isn't enough profit to fund studies that are seller-funded for most raw foods. That doesn't mean that raw foods aren't at all beneficial for anyone.

My current choice is between a raw CLO (from fermentation) foodlement and heated and refined supplements. Don't you normally give the benefit of the doubt to raw over cooked and more heavily processed? Which would you choose? Do you think I could save some money and still get a good result from the heated vitamin D supplements? I wish that grassfed meat and fat, pastured eggs, sunlight, cold therapy and so on had been enough to attain a decent vitamin D status, but so far they haven't, though my zinc status has improved wonderfully since including more RS-rich foods in my diet. Do you have any other ideas? Did you say yet what your vitamin D levels are?

In case anyone might get another miss-impression, I'm not interested in raising my low vitamin D status just for the sake of the numbers. My "doc," studies and multiple reports from other people suggest that doing so provides real health benefits and reduces risk of certain problems down the road. I do like Todd Becker's approach of trying to do it without supplements and I'm hoping that raw Paleo foods and hormetic therapies like his will enable me to get along without supplements or even foodlements in the longer run.

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I too have been tempted to experiment with cod oil.  But not heated, chemically refined.....
If you find something good, please do share what you find.

I hope this all helps explain what I meant. You're of course free to do whatever you wish and I'm not trying to prescribe for anyone else. YMMV. Good luck with whatever course you choose!

312
Journals / Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« on: August 17, 2014, 02:46:05 am »
Recent Iodine Warnings:

A couple people warned against taking too much iodine (such as more than 0.5 mg/day) recently. Not much explanatory detail was provided and I've already expressed qualms about high doses of iodine, so I'll just post this in my journal for now in case anyone's interested and for possible future reference.

Padmaja Doniparthi, MD warned to keep iodine intake moderate because it displaces other metals, according to Jimmy Moore, who saw Doniparthi say this in a presentation at The American Society of Bariatric Physicians Spring 2014 Conference: Diagnosis to Treatment—Recognizing Obesity as a Disease
http://bariatrictimes.com/the-american-society-of-bariatric-physicians-spring-2014-conference-diagnosis-to-treatment-recognizing-obesity-as-a-disease

Ray Peat warned that taking above 0.5 mg / day of iodine taken chronically can cause thyroid dysfunction, such as hypothyroid. He has also warned that VLC diets can cause hypothyroid, so if correct then doing both would presumably risk a double-whammy.
Starting around 11:06 in part 2 of this podcast - http://oneradionetwork.com/health/dr-ray-peat-ph-d-answering-a-plethora-of-questions-regarding-health-diet-and-nutrition-january-1-2014 -
It seems there's something to these warnings. Here's a negative experience from iodine supplementation recently reported by a former patient of Dr. Brownstein:

Quote
http://chriskresser.com/iodine-for-hypothyroidism-like-gasoline-on-a-fire#comment-172293

Tammy Kowalski
APRIL 10, 2014 AT 9:28 AM

Hello, I have Hashimoto’s, my blood test showed antibodies. I currently take about 60 mg of Naturethroid daily.I have tried iodine from Dr Brownstein, he is my mother’s Doctor. I saw him one time and he helped my thyroid symptoms by discovering that I had allergies to casein and gluten which were causing further inflammation to my thyroid. When I was on the Iodine after 6wks I developed a goiter, had horrible heart palpitations and my normally very regular menstrual cycle became erratic, I also developed painful and swollen breasts and worsening PMS symptoms, the worst part was my heart feeling like it was skipping a beat and then thumping really hard on the next beat. I also developed insomnia. After stopping the Iodine on my own suspicions everything went away after about a week or so. I have been fine on the Naturethroid now and my allergen free diet. However 2 months ago I switched my multi vitamin to one with 300 mcg of iodine in it without thinking. I missed a period, and had horrible cramping and painful swollen breasts, and started to develop bad heart palpitations and anxiety symptoms in my chest, also tightness in my chest, they kept getting worse, skipped beats and thumping about 3xs per minute all day, very scary. I finally figured out that it was the iodine in the vitamins. I also noticed my thyroid gland looked larger in my neck. I have been off the vitamins now for 3 weeks and I am back to normal. So now I know for sure that I need to stay away from iodine except for what I receive naturally in sea salt, that seems to be okay, I take a teaspoon daily of sea salt.

313
Hot Topics / Re: Making Good Food Affordable
« on: August 16, 2014, 08:31:20 pm »
Thanks Eric. Timely stuff, as indicated by this recent post at another forum:

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What the feking hell is up with skyrocketing food prices?
08-07-2014, 08:00 PM #1 Warmbear
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread109712.html

Heya, I dont know if this is just local or world wide but food prices are getting outside of my ability to eat regularly. Meat has almost doubled in the last 2 weeks, dairy, veggies, fish, everything has gotten stupidly spendy. I am having a hard time as is and for the last week I have had to forgo meat entirely but for liver twice a week and eggs.

Otherwise I am living on bone broth based soups and stews and rice with home made lard rounding out the calories. I have 4 people to feed and frankly the stress is ruining my sleep.

What the fekking hell is going on? There was a sign at my butcher saying that for the immediate future they would not be able to supply bulk meat purchases with special prices as their costs were just too high and the supply limited.

I was just speaking with an older lady at the local grocers who was in tears, she has hardly eaten anything but cat food and tuna and bread for the last 2 weeks and she felt terrible. She had never heard of making bone broth and could not imagine eating organ meat which is weird but what can you do.

I noticed the cost of the crappy processed foods were the same as always, hell Coke was on sale right next to the dairy aisle. 2L for 99 cents. 2L of milk was 3.92.

Is this an anti whole foods conspiracy by the food companies?
I also try to think in terms of $/calorie and $/nutrient, rather than just $/lb, and I explained in another thread that the cost of a high quality local raw honey per calorie is actually much cheaper ($4/kcal, per Nutritiondata) than an example that was given of an allegedly cheaper food (top sirloin $10.30/kcal, per Nutritiondata). The honey was actually even cheaper by the pound ($8.90 vs. $10) as well, though less so. On a related note, according to anthropologists, honey (and bee larvae) provides the biggest calorie payoff per calories expended for humans in the wild, and thus is highly regarded.

Comparing cost/nutrient is more complicated, because different foods fill different niches in the diet (not just vitamin/mineral niches, but also by feeding different bacteria, for example), so a comparison of meat vs. honey, fruit, or veg is a matter of apples and oranges. They each fill a role. Plus, many nutrients don't even get counted (such as prebiotics) and many are not even understood by science. Cost/nutrient probably makes more sense when comparing different types of the same food (ex: 100% grassfed meat vs. CAFO meat) and also when trying to figure out how to fill various nutritional needs economically, such as your vitamin A example.

314
Hot Topics / Re: Blue Ice Fermented Cod Liver Oil Question
« on: August 11, 2014, 05:50:53 am »
To my taste, Fermented Blue is an oxidized fat, just as is the beef fat that hangs in my fridge for over three weeks, and that is primarily saturated fat, hardly as damaging as pufa's that are oxidized.
Van, The concerns re: raw fermentation-produced-CLO (RFPCLO) were already addressed in this thread: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/study-finds-oxidized-(aka-'rancid')-fish-oil-to-be-benign/msg109922/#msg109922

Please do let us know if you come across any data showing high levels of peroxides in Green Pastures RFPCLO or harm from the recommended doses of RFPCLO, aside from your guess that your throat sting from RFCLO is a bad sign--which the Healthy Home Economist claimed is a good sign:
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Keep in mind that sometimes the fermented cod liver oil can cause a slight burning sensation in the throat, which is due to the beneficial lactic acid from the fermentation. - See more at: http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/fermented-cod-liver-oil-best-supplement/#sthash.0Z5RHQsw.dpuf

I can't find it now, but I also recall reading that the fermentation process produces natural antioxidants that prevent any significant oxidation for a long time, or something along those lines. This is apparently one reason that Eskimos preserve seal and whale oil and other fat sources via fermentation (note: the fat itself isn't fermented, as you pointed out--the protein around it is, and this apparently preserves, as well as concentrates, the oils).

Is the throat tingle really so concerning as to cause you to still be more negative about raw FPCLO than you were about standard heated cod liver oil and Dr. Mercola's krill oil (which reportedly doesn't contain much vitamin A and D, and is also heated)? I have yet to notice any critical remarks from you about the heated oils.

I actually liked the tingle, and it went away after a period of use. There seems to be an adjustment period.

What are your vitamin D levels? Mine were measured low, despite eating grass fed fats, fish, oysters, some duck eggs, and other food sources, and trying to get sun exposure and also trying some of Todd Becker's other alternatives to vitamin D supplements. So I'm back to taking reasonable doses of RFPCLO. My healthcare practitioner said that nearly everyone she tests is low in vitamin D. I suspect I may be low in vitamin A too.

We do agree that it's wise to not overdo it on CLO or other sources of PUFAs, even raw Paleo. The dose makes the poison. I think that omega-3 PUFA still tends to get oversold in Paleo circles. My main reason for taking the RFPCLO some days is the vitamins A and D, rather than the fish oil.

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Haplogroups would be useful organizational tools in a multiregional model, but.... the commonly accepted alphanumeric haplogroup nomenclature is designed for the Out-of-Africa migration maps. Personally, I don't know what this would entail, but I imagine that it would be exponentially more complex to have a more realistic model with multiple points of human origin. As it stands now, the evaluation of haplogroups is strongly supportive of migration from a single original point.

Link to a haplogroup map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup#mediaviewer/File:World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png
Yes, I'm familiar with the Out-of-Africa Y-DNA-haplogroup tree model. What I meant was, the multiregional proponents could create and support their own tree based on their views, which would be a more complex model, like you indicated. This is a start, though it doesn't have the haplogroups on it:



It would be interesting to see the alternative.

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General Discussion / Re: How ferment raw honey? (Not Mead)
« on: August 07, 2014, 09:04:20 am »
Not all fermented honey is creamed, though the fermented honeys that are sold will tend to be made from high-glucose honeys that otherwise would become very thick/creamy. Totally liquid honey, saps and nectars can ferment, just not as easily.

Creamed honeys are easier to ferment, not because they're creamed, but because in order to become creamy (thick) over time, they must be high in glucose, and glucose ferments more readily (thus, fermented honeys have a higher fructose/glucose ratio than unfermented, and they also tend to be more liquidy than the unfermented original honey).

Real Raw's unfermented honey is creamy and quite firm, but their fermented honey is quite soft and becomes even more liquidy over time as it slowly ferments further.

317
Info / News Items / Announcements / Re: Vice article featuring Me
« on: August 06, 2014, 05:38:51 am »
Hey Derek, You could shoot for world champion men's pole dancer.

Pole Dancing-Not Just for Women Any More
For the first time, the World Pole Dancing championships have allowed men to compete.
http://live.wsj.com/video/pole-dancing-not-just-for-women-any-more/7DEF202E-E66F-4F3A-868E-5AD4A6082118.html#!7DEF202E-E66F-4F3A-868E-5AD4A6082118

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Question: Can someone please explain how this "haplo groups" thing works and how I as a lay man can understand this geneticist giberish?
Haplogroups (male/patrilineal and female/matrilineal) are just collections of similar haplotypes (and haplotypes are collections of specific genetic variations) that share a common ancestor, organized so as to be able to study human genetics and ancestral "family trees." In other words, it's a convention that is intended to make the work of science easier.

What's being tracked presupposes that everybody started out from one common ancestral group, which suggests that haplogroups only have meaning in an Out-of-Africa paradigm.
Why wouldn't haplogroups also be useful organizational tools in the multiregional model? If Europeans have Neanderthal ancestors, as most scientists currently hypothesize, then why couldn't we use haplogroups to organize Neanderthal genetic trees the way we do with non-Neanderthal lineages (if enough evidence is accumulated)?

If 80% or so of European DNA is supposed to be Neanderthal, as Tyler hinted it might be, then wouldn't that just mean that most of the European haplogroups have Neanderthal origin instead of H. sapiens sapiens?

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Looks pretty good. Legume plants have been consumed by humans and pre-humans for millions of years (so, of course, some are edible raw and acceptable even to Instinctos), and there is ample scientific evidence that including some in the diet is not harmful, and probably beneficial. The "Godfather of Paleo," Dr. Boyd Eaton, OK'd legumes. If no legumes are "Paleo," then what is Paleo and why is it more Paleo?

A recent study suggested that healthy people only need around 7 hours of sleep. Stressed people will probably need more. Maybe a better way to put it might be "Sufficient sleep--get enough sleep so that you can wake up without an alarm clock."

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Info / News Items / Announcements / Re: Vice article featuring Me
« on: August 04, 2014, 07:00:24 am »
Congrats Derek, I think that's the best video yet! It looked like the interviewer was much more open-minded and friendly and you got to show off your excellent physical fitness.

It's rare to see men pole-dancing in the media, so maybe that will also generate some good media interest for you.

321
Hot Topics / Re: Meat vs Veg: An Energy Perspective
« on: July 29, 2014, 11:53:21 am »
I wonder what the energy input/output figures would be for some other energy-output-rich ancestral foods - honey, insect larvae, and tiger nuts. Tiger nuts can be mass-produced, so they would be the most relevant to your topic.

"Modern food systems turn industrial fuels into food."

Yup, the Green Revolution was basically the conversion of petroleum into food for humans.

On an even broader perspective, civilizations generally convert natural resources into trash and toxic wastes. "Progress" typically involves an acceleration of this process, though there are some green counter-trends (mostly in Europe, it seems).

322
Off Topic / Re: The (Real?) Stone-Age Diet
« on: July 18, 2014, 07:11:45 pm »
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The researchers found ingestion of the purple nut sedge in both pre-agricultural and agricultural periods.

They suggest that the plant’s ability to inhibit Streptococcus mutans - a bacterium which contributes to tooth decay, may have contributed to the unexpectedly low level of cavaties found in the agricultural population.

Dr Stephen Buckley, a Research Fellow at the University of York’s BioArCh research facility, conducted the chemical analyses.
He added: ‘The evidence for purple nut sedge was very clear in samples from all the time periods we looked at.

This plant was evidently important to the people of Al Khiday, even after agricultural plants had been introduced.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2694799/The-root-matter-Ancient-tooth-plaque-reveals-ancestors-cooked-barbeques-feasted-weeds.html#ixzz37lQZbzSa
Good find, Tyler. Purple nut sedge is related to the tiger nuts I reported on before:

"The [tiger nut aka yellow nut sedge aka chufa] tubers are edible, with a slightly sweet, nutty flavour, compared to the more bitter-tasting tuber of the related Cyperus rotundus (purple nutsedge)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_esculentus

323
Journals / Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« on: July 14, 2014, 07:16:50 pm »
You seem to be one of the one or two  on here who really keeps mentioning zero or low low carb.
Let's hope you're right and that chronic ZC/VLC is nearing its last death throes. It does seem to be rapidly dying out.

Recently I saw someone ask if kefir and honey are ZC. What next, pure cane sugar? ;D  Quite a far cry from the old days when even liver, eggs and brains were sneered at as too-high in carbs by many ZCers.

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And to my point those of us who include fibrous and starches bound up with cells of plants, i.e., grasses, sea weeds, greens, root vegetables, raw corn,   and as mentioned the indigestible fibers in fruits that pass through our bowels,,
Interesting, do you eat significant amounts of grasses and raw corn? What kinds? I suspect that raw corn would contain significant RS. Have you tried to discuss this at all? I'm guessing the reaction would not be much better than the reaction to RS was early on.

On a related note, some people who have been consuming plenty of RS report that their ability to digest corn has improved dramatically. I'm tempted to try some corn myself, as my corn digestion was terrible toward the end of my pre-Paleo days, and your comment on corn has further tweaked my curiosity.

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Are getting food for beneficial bacteria in the colon,, seemingly naturally as part of our non zero carb inclusive diet.
Yeah, like I indicated multiple times now, it was never a matter of RS vs. other prebiotics and fibers. It was always more along the lines of the more the merrier (though probably not so much the more modern ones, like bran).

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What also isn't mentioned much, that I have seen, is the amount of protein eaten, and how it's prepared, cooked or raw.
Duck Dodgers did a good job of finally addressing that at Free the Animal. It was quite interesting.

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This is at least where my interest lies, and not the unending accounts of how many have suffered do to low low carb ...
There seems to be no winning. If I don't provide plenty of examples, then the complaint is that I didn't provide enough evidence. If I do, then the complaint is that it's too much.

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I'm wondering what would happen if you preached RS in Washington's zero carb forum, obviously with a different name, and supply the evidence that the Inuit did eat RS in the various forms,  that the plains Indians at least when they ate fresh kill were getting animal forms of RS.  You might just save some of them over there.
Not likely. I'd be quickly banned. Charles is quick on the trigger and warns people that his forum is only for true believers in ZC, which is his choice, as it's his forum.

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Journals / Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« on: July 14, 2014, 08:15:45 am »
a lot of 'probably' in there.
Yup, there's never certainty in science. There's also uncertainty in your and my guesses. It will be interesting to see what future scientific investigation reveals.

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I'm not suggesting for a minute that they grazed on grass.  But while hunting or foraging, chewed on especially spring grasses, just as I and many other's have done,,
Do you mean that probably not a lot in the way of grass blades was wholly grazed/consumed, instead just the occasional chewing/sucking of some grass stalks here and there, and the food focus was more on the tubers and possibly also the seeds? If so, I agree that that's more likely--especially the tubers, it seems, based on the research I cited above and other research and the experience of myself and others.

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I still have not seen evidence  that any fibrous material with sugar or starch, making it to the large intestine isn't food for these bacteria, just as grass does for cows.    That is why I've said several times, that pieces of lettuce, seaweed, corn, carrot, the fibrous parts of oranges or other fruits, nuts,  etc. anything with starchy fiber potentially can feed these fatty acid producing bacteria.   If you know from literature or experience otherwise, please let me know.    And suspect anyone not strictly trying to go as close to Zero Carb as possible are being provided quite a host of foods for their guts.
By "sugar", do you mean fruits? I believe the primary fermentable prebiotic they contain is pectin. Sugars themselves (sucrose, glucose, fructose, galactose, maltose and lactose) are not normally classed as prebiotics, as they are mostly digested in the mouth, stomach and small intestine, rather than the colon.

Do you mean that there are other prebiotics beyond resistant starch (RS isn't yet technically classed as a prebiotic, but for simplicity's sake I'll use that term for all foods that feed gut bacteria), such as inulin, that are also converted into butyrate? If so, I agree with that and I've indicated that myself in the past. It was never about just RS and all the prebiotics are hypothesized to be beneficial in one way or another, even those that don't contribute to butyrate production. Whether they all are or not and to what degree is not written in stone and is a matter for future further investigation.

It seems that RS may have been especially impactful among prebiotics for me and hundreds of other LC Paleo dieters because it's the one that tends to get most thoroughly excluded in such diets. That doesn't mean that the others aren't also important, just that they don't tend to get excluded as severely, from what I've seen, and they also don't tend to be as controversial. Ironically, the passionate backlash against RS only served to further draw attention to the topic at multiple blogs and forums. The primary source of the passion seems to be the word "starch," which seems offputting to many VLCers, perhaps because "starch" was so thoroughly demonized in the past (and another major uproar occurred when Paul Jaminet started using the term "safe starches"--he was criticized by a host of LC gurus, despite himself advocating a LC diet). As a result, at times the voluminous discussion about RS may seem like RS is the sole focus, but that was never the intention.

Hope that clears things up some.

Interestingly, yet another prominent LCer has started writing positively about RS and other prebiotics--Dr. William Davis, author of Wheat Belly:

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2014/07/fertilize-garden-called-bowel-flora/

He joins, Mark Sisson, Tom Naughton, Richard Nikoley, Paul Jaminet, Norm Robillard, Chris Kresser, Dr. Jack Kruse, Prof. Stephan Guyenet, Melissa McEwen and other current and former LCers (I think they all at least tried LC or VLC at some point in their lives, if I'm not mistaken) who have written at least something positive about prebiotics. As these and other folks write more and more positive stuff about prebiotics and more and more positive reports are shared at their blogs and elsewhere, and more and more research is published showing benefits from prebiotics and that they were included in ancestral diets, I'm noticing less and less negative comments about RS and other prebiotics from the fans of these folks and LCers in general. I'm not expecting Dr. Ron Rosedale, Dr. Richard Bernstein or Ray Peat (who's not a LCer, but seems to have a basically low opinion of prebiotics) to follow suit any time soon, though, but who knows, anything can happen. Heck, even Jimmy Moore said he's going to try experimenting with RS.

No doubt, more folks will also go overboard with RS and other prebiotics, as seems to happen with everything.

325
Journals / Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« on: July 14, 2014, 06:22:57 am »
The tubers, rather than blades, of savannah grasses, are currently regarded as the bigger source of food of ancient hominids, though who knows what future investigation will reveal.

Quote
Some hominids have grass and sedges diet
By SHAIRA PANELA, GMA NewsNovember 14, 2012 7:48am
http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/282172/scitech/science/some-hominids-have-grass-and-sedges-diet
Lee-Thorp also said that A. bahrelghazali probably consumed “underground tubers, bulbs and stems, and papyrus” noting that primates usually have difficulty digesting grass blades.


Two million years ago, human relative 'Nutcracker Man' lived on tiger nuts
January 9, 2014
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140109003949.htm
A new study concludes that ancient ancestors who lived in East Africa between 2.4 million-1.4 million years ago mostly ate tiger nuts with additional nourishment from fruits and invertebrates, like worms and grasshoppers. The study examines the diet of Paranthropus boisei, nicknamed "Nutcracker Man," through studying modern-day baboons in Kenya to help to explain a puzzle that has vexed archaeologists for 50 years.


Ancient human ancestor 'Nutcracker Man' lived on tiger nuts
09 Jan 14
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2014/140109_1.html
Dr Macho, from the School of Archaeology at Oxford University, said: 'I believe that the theory -- that "Nutcracker Man" lived on large amounts of tiger nuts- helps settle the debate about what our early human ancestor ate. On the basis of recent isotope results, these hominins appear to have survived on a diet of C4 foods, which suggests grasses and sedges. Yet these are not high quality foods. What this research tells us is that hominins were selective about the part of the grass that they ate, choosing the grass bulbs at the base of the grass blade as the mainstay of their diet.

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