Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: TylerDurden on August 07, 2008, 03:08:18 am
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Keith, you might consider trying the Bates Method(there's some info if you google). I don't guarantee its effects but it , at the very least, does reduce strain on your eyes.
Interesting reading re your journey to a RAF-diet. It seems a majority tend to go through a Raw Vegan/Fruitarian phase prior to going RAF.
I also got rid of most of my gas/farting when I went rawpalaeo(provided I didn't eat too many raw carbs).
Was that raw-meat-eating bodybuilder a "Randy Roach", by any chance?
As regards reading references re raw-meat-eating and mentions of disgust:- I've noticed, more and more, certain (non-diet-related) forums where my alter-ego, "RawPaleoGuy"/ "PaleoGuy" on allexperts.com, gets routinely lambasted for recommending "slimy" High-Meat.
*Anyway, my hope is that this board of forums will eventually become a true, extensive resource-/info-page that any RAF-newbie can access(free-of-charge!).*
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Keith, you might consider trying the Bates Method(there's some info if you google). I don't guarantee its effects but it , at the very least, does reduce strain on your eyes.
Interesting reading re your journey to a RAF-diet. It seems a majority tend to go through a Raw Vegan/Fruitarian phase prior to going RAF.
I also got rid of most of my gas/farting when I went rawpalaeo(provided I didn't eat too many raw carbs).
Was that raw-meat-eating bodybuilder a "Randy Roach", by any chance?
As regards reading references re raw-meat-eating and mentions of disgust:- I've noticed, more and more, certain (non-diet-related) forums where my alter-ego, "RawPaleoGuy"/ "PaleoGuy" on allexperts.com, gets routinely lambasted for recommending "slimy" High-Meat.
*Anyway, my hope is that this board of forums will eventually become a true, extensive resource-/info-page that any RAF-newbie can access(free-of-charge!).*
Yeah, I've looked into the Bates method... but I've read in his book, in his own very words, he says that if you cannot throw out your glasses altogether then his program will not work for you. You must be completely committed to living without any corrective lens while you are doing his program. I simply cannot go without my glasses at all times. Driving at night would be extremely dangerous and there's no way I could read the board during classes, and things like this.
And I had no idea "RawPaleoGuy" was you! I've read stuff by him (you) before, such as the Q&A's on yahoo, but never knew that you and he were one and the same! How very interesting!
And no, it was not Randy Roach. His name is Paul Lundkvist... his sn on bodybuilding.com is rawlife, and turns out he has a website: http://www.paullundkvist.com/4436.html
It is to him I owe my decision to eat raw animal foods.
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I agree re Bates Method - I have heard claims re some people improving eyesight even while still wearing glasses, but it was, admittedly, a 1000 times more difficult.
Re Lundqvist:- Yes, I noticed that guy's website and posted about it on my rawpaleodiet yahoo group. But Randy Roach is the true master of raw-meat bodybuilding, IMO, and has a book out soon(or now?) on the history of bodybuilding including the history of its nutrition(many bodybuilders, before the lethal steroid-use era, used to go in for raw meat diets).
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Ah yes, I think I've read that. It was extremely interesting!
I'll go check right now to make sure that what I read is actually what you're talking about
Edit:
What I read was this: http://www.westonaprice.org/men/splendidspecimens.html
which was in fact written by Randy Roach. But it seems as if he's written a book called Muscle, Smoke & Mirrors, which is much more comprehensive
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Yes, that's the one.
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Yeah, I've looked into the Bates method... but I've read in his book, in his own very words, he says that if you cannot throw out your glasses altogether then his program will not work for you. You must be completely committed to living without any corrective lens while you are doing his program. I simply cannot go without my glasses at all times. Driving at night would be extremely dangerous and there's no way I could read the board during classes, and things like this.
And I had no idea "RawPaleoGuy" was you! I've read stuff by him (you) before, such as the Q&A's on yahoo, but never knew that you and he were one and the same! How very interesting!
And no, it was not Randy Roach. His name is Paul Lundkvist... his sn on bodybuilding.com is rawlife, and turns out he has a website: http://www.paullundkvist.com/4436.html
It is to him I owe my decision to eat raw animal foods.
Two things, first being that I have a book about the Bates method where you can continue to wear corrective lenses. It's called Relearning to See by Thomas R. Quackenbush. I wanted to try the method too because I'm myopic. Maybe we can both try it and keep tabs on our progress? I think that might be the only way to keep me honest about daily practice.
Second is that I know Paul Lundkvist and if you'd like I can pm you his email. He lives in Sweden now so far as I know and last I heard he was starting a raw kombucha business there.
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Hey, that sounds like an idea!
I just looked at the book on Amazon, and it got nothing but good reviews!
Someone even said that there are no exercises, but just things that you practice 24/7?
Do you know if that's true? Because honestly with going back to college in a couple weeks I don't know if I could spare an extra hour a day devoted to eye exercises.
As for the email address, I've PMed Paul back and forth a couple times on the bodybuilding forums. Last I heard from him he was on vacation.
So thanks, but I don't think I need his email :)
That's really cool that you know him though, small world! How'd you meet if you don't mind me asking?
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Maybe starting a thread about natural eye improvement would be good. I have been using the book by Quackenbush for over a year now, with great improvement in my eyesight. The thing that got me to ditch my glasses and contacts was the fact that they rob your eyes of healthy UV rays. He does stress going as much as you can without wearing your glasses, but not like Bates.
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Yeah, I make sure to get some outside time without my glasses on as much as possible so that my eyes can get those UV rays...
in fact, a couple weeks ago I was taking walks outside without my glasses on each day, and it seemed as if my eyesight was just a bit sharper because of them. But it would go back to how it was after putting on my glasses again. Sometimes I'll even look right into the sun if it's early or late enough.
I've also noticed that colors are SO much brighter and more intense when I'm not wearing my glasses.
I already make sure to focus my eyes on something far away for a few seconds if I'm focused on something right in front of me (like the computer!) for more than a few minutes at a time.
I have some weird form of astigmatism. I have big problems with details and I can't read a single letter other than the big "E" on an eye chart.
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Maybe starting a thread about natural eye improvement would be good. I have been using the book by Quackenbush for over a year now, with great improvement in my eyesight. The thing that got me to ditch my glasses and contacts was the fact that they rob your eyes of healthy UV rays. He does stress going as much as you can without wearing your glasses, but not like Bates.
I've split and moved the topic. :)
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Hey, that sounds like an idea!
I just looked at the book on Amazon, and it got nothing but good reviews!
Someone even said that there are no exercises, but just things that you practice 24/7?
Do you know if that's true? Because honestly with going back to college in a couple weeks I don't know if I could spare an extra hour a day devoted to eye exercises.
As for the email address, I've PMed Paul back and forth a couple times on the bodybuilding forums. Last I heard from him he was on vacation.
So thanks, but I don't think I need his email :)
That's really cool that you know him though, small world! How'd you meet if you don't mind me asking?
The Bates Method/Quackenbush methods don't work if you view them as exercises. They should be seen as habits/techniques that you practise all the time, without really thinking about it. I think that's part of the reason why I didn't succeed with the Bates Method, because I devoted 30 to 60 minutes a day to it, but didn't follow the habits the rest of the time. Still, some of the techniques such as palming have been very effective in other ways.
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Hey, that sounds like an idea!
I just looked at the book on Amazon, and it got nothing but good reviews!
Someone even said that there are no exercises, but just things that you practice 24/7?
Do you know if that's true? Because honestly with going back to college in a couple weeks I don't know if I could spare an extra hour a day devoted to eye exercises.
As for the email address, I've PMed Paul back and forth a couple times on the bodybuilding forums. Last I heard from him he was on vacation.
So thanks, but I don't think I need his email :)
That's really cool that you know him though, small world! How'd you meet if you don't mind me asking?
I'm gonna look at some of the first "habits" and try and do them. One of them is to move your head back and forth a lot while looking around and not stare at stuff. I feel a little self conscious about it, but I'll give it a try.
As for Paul I met him on the rawfood.com forums back when I was a raw vegan and he was the only RAFer there. Basically my views approached his over the coarse of a couple of years and we talked a lot once I started on raw animal foods.
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I have multiple images.. or I guess it's formally called polyopia. It's worst with LED lights, text, and light colors on a dark background. I also supposedly have astigmatism (although my doctor didn't understand the polyopia thing so I kind of doubt his competence :P), and am slightly near-slighted.
I haven't read this, although I've thought about it a few times. Didn't see the link to the wikibooks for it posted, so I thought i would: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Perfect_Sight_Without_Glasses (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Perfect_Sight_Without_Glasses)
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For a long time, I have been thinking about just simply not using my glasses anymore. That's it. Just take them off and don't put them back on. With me going back on the raw paleo diet, maybe my vision will just correct itself....
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For a long time, I have been thinking about just simply not using my glasses anymore. That's it. Just take them off and don't put them back on. With me going back on the raw paleo diet, maybe my vision will just correct itself....
It probably would correct its self to some degree. I do think that you would need to take measures to help it all the way. I tossed my contacts over a year ago and though my vision is not perfect yet, it does not register to me that there is any blur unless I think about it. My vision is not all that bad now, altough I bet if the average Joe would walk outside and see through my eyes they would have a panic attack.....relaxation is also a key to improving sight.
I may not be able to read the smaller print on street advertisements, but I think I am much better off not knowing what it says. I also find that things are easier to see and that there is less blur when I am in a more natural environment.....again relaxation.
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I really would like to lose my glasses as much as possible, but my vision is just so bad!
I'm sitting like two feet away from my screen and I couldn't read a single word on here if it weren't for my glasses.
I wouldn't be able to tell who someone was from a distance while walking outside if I didn't have them on.
I certainly wouldn't be able to read anything up on the board in class without them.
:'(
Is there any difference between contacts and glasses when it comes to this? I'd like to get contacts instead of glasses but I'm worried they might be even worse than glasses for your eyes.
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I really would like to lose my glasses as much as possible, but my vision is just so bad!
I'm sitting like two feet away from my screen and I couldn't read a single word on here if it weren't for my glasses.
I wouldn't be able to tell who someone was from a distance while walking outside if I didn't have them on.
I certainly wouldn't be able to read anything up on the board in class without them.
:'(
Is there any difference between contacts and glasses when it comes to this? I'd like to get contacts instead of glasses but I'm worried they might be even worse than glasses for your eyes.
There's a very expensive process called "orthokeratology" where you buy specially-designed contact-lenses which reform your eyebal so that you can see perfectly at full vision. Trouble is, you have to insert them into your eyes every night and take them off every morning - should you forget to do this, after 2-3 days, your vision goes back to short- or long-sightedness, as applicable. Don't lose the lenses as they are so expensive. Bates Method practitioners state, though, that the Bates Method doesn't work with orthokeratology, as such. Have a look at the Bates Method yahoo group re all this.
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I really would like to lose my glasses as much as possible, but my vision is just so bad!
I'm sitting like two feet away from my screen and I couldn't read a single word on here if it weren't for my glasses.
I wouldn't be able to tell who someone was from a distance while walking outside if I didn't have them on.
I certainly wouldn't be able to read anything up on the board in class without them.
:'(
Is there any difference between contacts and glasses when it comes to this? I'd like to get contacts instead of glasses but I'm worried they might be even worse than glasses for your eyes.
My eyesight is like yours, practically blind without glasses.
Many years ago I tried contact lenses, my eyesight improved.
Could not continue, as they irritated the eyes, but I think they are better made now.
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well, my glasses broke yesterday. Snapped right in half...
So i've been going without them. I couldn't read the board in class lol...
I took them to an eye doctor place that does repairs, but my glasses were titanium and couldn't be soldered (sp?) and they didn't have any frames that my lenses would fit in.
So, who knows. Maybe I'll keep just not wearing my glasses hoping that my eyesight will improve. Most likely I will get new glasses or contacts.
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OK, so I got a replacement pair of glasses but I think I'm only going to use them when ABSOLUTELY necessary. I changed the font size on my computer to extra large so i could read it without glasses and without my face up to the screen, but it's still really blurry.
So does anyone have any thoughts on what the best natural eyesight improvement method is?
Bates? Quackenbush? Mercola has a vision course as well.
I'll check out that orthokeratology thing as well... but if it's expensive I doubt it'll happen
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I don't have ideas, but I was wondering if you experienced any headaches from glasses withdrawal.
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I had the tiniest hint of a headache for a very short time a little while after my glasses broke and I was unable to wear them. Really, it was nothing. However, today I've felt very tired and worn out, and my eyes feel heavy. It's not like me to feel tired... mostly since going raw paleo I've been all energy.
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OK, so I got a replacement pair of glasses but I think I'm only going to use them when ABSOLUTELY necessary. I changed the font size on my computer to extra large so i could read it without glasses and without my face up to the screen, but it's still really blurry.
So does anyone have any thoughts on what the best natural eyesight improvement method is?
Bates? Quackenbush? Mercola has a vision course as well.
I'll check out that orthokeratology thing as well... but if it's expensive I doubt it'll happen
I have about 4 or 5 books on the subject and I really think quackenbush nails it. I do not have perfect sight, but it has improved greatly. You should look into getting reduced prescription glasses that way you can improve your sight and still be able to function.
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Thanks... from reading the reviews of Quackenbush on amazon.com it seems like good stuff. I think I'll buy it soon. And yeah, thanks for reminding me about the reduced prescription idea.
I just don't know how reduced is a good amount of reduced. Is it common to ask for this? I can't help but think whatever eye doctor I go to will try and talk me out of it.
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Yeah, it's iffy if you need glasses for driving - would you be liable in an accident if you were not wearing full prescription? You could always keep that pair in the car. (I almost studied law, but I like the straightforwardness of engineering best.)
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Hmm, well I didn't bring my car with me to school. So that's not a problem right now. And yeah, I could always keep the pair I have now for driving if I ever need too.
Hopefully by then they will be too strong of a prescription though ;D
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Hmm, well I didn't bring my car with me to school. So that's not a problem right now. And yeah, I could always keep the pair I have now for driving if I ever need too.
Hopefully by then they will be too strong of a prescription though ;D
Oh, that's right, you got hit by a car this summer on a bike! Be safe out there if you are less than 20/20. I am myopic and I think it's now part of my driver's license, but I can do fine without them.
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I just stopped wearing my glasses about five days ago and I didn't have any headaches but you have to be careful at night though. If the roads don't have streetlights you'll be stuck relying on the white reflectors on the road if there are any.
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I had the tiniest hint of a headache for a very short time a little while after my glasses broke and I was unable to wear them. Really, it was nothing. However, today I've felt very tired and worn out, and my eyes feel heavy. It's not like me to feel tired... mostly since going raw paleo I've been all energy.
I avoided wearing glasses like the plague because every time I took them off, my eyes would feel so damned tired that I couldn't function - the longer I wore them at a time, the worse this effect was. I realised, as a result, that all those stories re wearing glasses weakening one's eyesight was absolutely true, so I only keep my glasses for the occasional medical test that's required.
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Wow... my eyes are still tired and they're in a bit of pain as well. My body feels very tired still as well. I hope this is all eye related and goes away very soon.
But this is the longest I've gone without wearing glasses or contacts in I guess around 13 years, so it's to be expected, huh?
When I woke up this morning, I noticed my eyesight was markedly sharper. But that faded throughout the day.
I think it might be a tiny bit better than it was before when I wore glasses all the time, but I could be imagining it. I'm ordering Relearning to See right now.
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Let's be Quackenbush partners, I need motivation.
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sounds good, kyle. I will let you know when I get the book.
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Awesome!
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I just found the original Bates method book available free online: http://www.iblindness.org/books/bates/
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I've read the bates method, but I still don't seem to be able to apply it habitually, and some techniques I am still confused regarding how to even apply them at all. I have noticed an improvement in eyesight at times when trying the bates method though I have also noticed better eyesight as a result from RAF + fasting so it seems there is definitely more to eyesight improvement than muscle relaxation as discussed in the book. I do know that prominent Bates practitioners now emphasize that diet is an important complement to the bates method.
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Yes, I recall reading scientific reports that factors that contribute to myopia include heredity, diet, use of close-vision (such as in reading) and eye strain. There may be others that they're not aware of. I haven't read Bate's stuff, so he probably suggests others as well. Eyeglasses are also thought by some to further weaken the eyes. I remember my eye doctor saying that contact lenses don't deteriorate vision as quickly as eyeglasses do.
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I don't think that close reading per se would damage vision, rather the poor habits people have when they look close that causes bad vision. I think it's plausible that proper diet can lead to better functioning of the eye muscles and achieve relaxation of some sort without even trying.
You can confirm the idea behind the bates method yourself. Control the muscles around the eye manually by pushing the skin on the outer of your eye (around the ridge of your eye socket) with your finger to elongate and flatten the surface of the eyeball and your vision will become immediately sharper with more distinct colours.
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I don't think that close reading per se would damage vision, rather the poor habits people have when they look close that causes bad vision. ...
99.999% of people in the world don't use the Bates method, so when they do close reading it does damage their vision if they are prone to myopia. I agree that the Bates method sounds good and plan to try it myself, but my statement was correct for all practical purposes, so let's not pick nits please.
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99.999% of people in the world don't use the Bates method, so when they do close reading it does damage their vision if they are prone to myopia. I agree that the Bates method sounds good and plan to try it myself, but my statement was correct for all practical purposes, so let's not pick nits please.
I think that's a bit of a stretch to say 99.999% of people don't use the bates method. The bates method is meant to teach you to develop good habits. Many people don't need to do the bates method because they already have good vision/eye habits so reading close shouldn't damage their eyesight. Eyesight degeneration from poor diet for example is probably misdiagnosed as being caused by reading close.
If it's vision habits causing vision loss I tend to think that vision loss wouldn't slowly degenerate but the effect be immediate. Meaning that if you have perfect vision then your eye muscles must be working properly so vision loss must be a result of poor nutrition. But then again not many people probably have perfect vision, and just how 'bad' do your habits have to be to cause vision to degenerate? Though why did less than 2% of the traditional Inuit have even any detectable Myopia? Yet now myopia is far greater in Inuit 30 years or younger than the elderly Inuit. And as discussed by Bates in the book, traditional people did lots of close work with art, tools, pottery etc and these people obviously did not study the Bates method.
I have decent vision, but very bad near vision habits, but it's not causing a slow degeneration in vision (yet?). If I have to stare at something very close for a long time my distance vision becomes significantly worse immediately, but after a night's sleep returns to normal.
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Raw Kyle, boxcarguy, did either of you buy the Quackenbush book?
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I think that's a bit of a stretch to say 99.999% of people don't use the bates method. The bates method is meant to teach you to develop good habits. Many people don't need to do the bates method because they already have good vision/eye habits so reading close shouldn't damage their eyesight.
I see what you mean. I was referring to people with myopia, not people with perfect vision. What I meant was that 99.999% of people with myopia don't try to reverse it and assume it's irreversible. Mine reversed a little bit within weeks of when I first went gluten-free, and my night vision especially improved.
Eyesight degeneration from poor diet for example is probably misdiagnosed as being caused by reading close.
They have both been reported to contribute and usually both habits exist in people with myopia, though correlation is of course not causation. The research I read did not say it was a matter of either-or, but rather a multiplicity of factors with diet being #1.
The correlation between close-reading and myopia could also be due to lack of sunlight from being indoors, which Bates believed. Whether the cause is excessive use of close vision or lack of sunlight, the Px is the same: spend more time outdoors with your eyeglasses off.
...as discussed by Bates in the book, traditional people did lots of close work with art, tools, pottery etc and these people obviously did not study the Bates method.
I'm less interested in debating points than in whether you have some techniques that have worked for you. If you have had improvement or do get some in the future, please do relate how many diopters your vision improved and share the techniques.
BTW, my sister's vision also improved on a Paleo diet, as did her eyes' response to that puff-of-air glaucoma test. Her ophthalmologist was mystified by the improvement and said something like her eyes were as healthy as someone 20 years younger. I haven't bothered to get my eyes tested in over 5 years, because my eyesight has not deteriorated beyond the correction ability of my eyeglasses since I went Paleo, whereas I used to have to get a stronger Px every 2-3 years or so.
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Shortly after I started to eat raw meat, I got new glasses. It was time for bifocals, but it was 2 for 1 so I got regular prescription glasses and reading glasses. In a year or so I no longer used the regular glasses, except for driving at night.
I did this again a few years ago, with a further improvement in vision. I have extreme myopia.
The original weakness started at about 8 years of age, due to a high cooked carbohydrate diet.
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Raw Kyle, boxcarguy, did either of you buy the Quackenbush book?
I have it. It's a boring read but packed with what appears to be some very good information. I tried some of the exercises but wasn't able to keep up motivation for them. I'm near sighted, but it's not very bad, sometimes I have to squint but it doesn't affect me very much. I would like to try the method but realistically I know that I probably wouldn't have the motivation like the first time I tried, I can't seem to focus on more than a couple of things at once (a little eyesight joke there).
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I found Bates difficult to read, but I found this summary that's much shorter and clearer: http://www.i-see.org/bates_nutshell.html and leaves out the more controversial bits.
I tried Bates' relaxation exercises but they didn't have any noticeable effect for me. He did say that only a small minority of people respond quickly, so I'll try to keep an open mind and won't write him off yet, though I'm certainly not going to focus the sun with a magnifying glass on my eyeballs ("The sensitiveness to light was relieved in a few minutes by focussing the light of the sun upon the upper part of the eyeball when she looked far down, by means of a burning glass," http://www.iblindness.org/books/bates/ch15.html) and I don't consider floaters to be optical illusions like he did.