Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Members' Journals => Journals => Topic started by: actionhero on May 21, 2010, 04:05:04 am
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I've been thinking about this for a while now and I feel it's time to just do it and see what happens. While my vitality has increased dramatically and my health improved beyond what I ever expected I can't deny the science about the role insulin has on bodily deterioration. The reason that I'm not experiencing any problems from high fruit could be that I just haven't reached a critical mass of insulin resistance so no symptoms are developing. But in about 20 years from now I might have a different story to tell. I can't make a correct observation about reality if I've never experienced full adaption to fat burning and using it as my main source of fuel.
So for 6 months I'm going on a zero carb no matter what experiment. As of now fruit is out. Only raw lean meat, raw fatty meat and some organs. After 6 months if I am not 100% convinced that I am doing better without fruit I will introduce it back but not sooner. I'm mostly interested in how zero carb affects my energy levels, vitality, awareness and attitude. Also trying to discover if some next level of health exists. Very excited to see how this goes.
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look forward to reading your experiences!
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So for 6 months I'm going on a zero carb no matter what experiment.
I like your fighting spirit.
But when I did raw vegan, I only lasted 2 months.
I did fruitarian, I only lasted 2 months.
I did all cooked meat optimal diet and only lasted 1 month.
Proceed with caution. Maybe keep in touch with fellow zero carbers to coach you on the fine details.
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I wish you luck. I have been ZC since March 2009, and raw ZC since September 2009, so more than 6 months now.
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Well, judging from the past accounts, those who do well on raw, zero-carb are the ones who already knew they had some sort of food-intolerance towards most carbs by the time they started RZC. At least , all the long-termers are like that(Lex, paleophil etc. etc.)
The catch is the transitionary period which even successful RZCers find mildly inconvenient re symptoms, and there are many unsuccessful RZC-triers who have been unable to continue, with most of the latter not managing to get past c.3 weeks or so without experiencing difficulties - a few even get issues at a much earlier date.
The other catch(for those who have no issues with carbs at the start) is that as you spend very long periods on a very low RVLC diet or RZC diet, your body changes so that the enzymes/bacteria used to digest carbs are no longer used so that one develops an increasing inability to handle the digestion of any carbs. Once you return to eating a sizeable amount of raw carbs, your body will eventually readapt and you'll be able to handle the digestion of carbs fully once relevant gut-bacteria etc. levels are restored.
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Fruit doesn't cause insulin problems, no matter how sugary they are. It's only processed carbs that give you insulin problems.
I think that this will only cause you problems.. I did RZC for 2 months and felt pretty shitty the whole time. Energy and strength was there, but mental clarity and happiness just vanished. I felt brainfog, super irritation and had problems thinking.
Now I've introduced fruit in sizeable quantities to my diet and my skin looks great, even better then rzc, my hair has stopped being greasy and is now very light, shiny and fluffy. And best of all my bowel movements are just super regular and I just feel like my self again, energetic and happy.
So if it ain't broken, don't fix it.
My tip if you're going to do this is don't overdo it with the fat. The whole "rabbit starvation" thing has been greatly exaggerated. Make sure you eat plenty of lean meats and not too much of the fat.
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So if it ain't broken, don't fix it.
You definitely have a point there and I thought about this a lot. But I recently went through most of Lex's journal and Bear's wisdom who to my knowledge are the longest ZCers. Bear claims his body at 70 has the same vitality he had at 30 and while Lex says there is no magic in zero carb it did however stop all his serious symptoms and gave him his normal life back. My experience as of now tells me fruit does indeed not cause any noticeable damage. But if fruit doesn't cause insulin problems long term then why do a lot of people here have their past symptoms returning when they start eating fruit again? I think I'll just have to go through the zero carb experience myself to make an accurate observation. If I can adapt to fat burning then I should have no problems adapting back to mostly fruit+raw meat if it results in a less than positive experience. Anyways thanks for jumping in.
Well, judging from the past accounts, those who do well on raw, zero-carb are the ones who already knew they had some sort of food-intolerance towards most carbs by the time they started RZC.
That's why I think my experiment will be interesting because I do extremely well on fruit.
Proceed with caution.
Yeah lol, if I start rolling on the floor from pain it might indeed be a good idea to not continue the experiment.
Everything else is fair game.
I have been ZC since March 2009, and raw ZC since September 2009, so more than 6 months now.
Thanks, now I will feel super bad if I don't make it to 6 months.
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Went looking for info on what diabetics experience when they go on a fruitarian diet. Here's a quote from Doug Graham who is the top guru of the movement.
On average, the Type 2 diabetics I work with reduce their insulin use by about 70% in 3 days. Many are totally off insulin before the first week is out.
ForTheHunt is right, the data on processed carbs doesn't apply to fruit because if it did the diabetics would certainly know.
Might still go on with the experiment just to see what happens.
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Hello actionhero,
I do ZC too, but my own version what includes wild edibles. ;)
I love it, have not had anything negative yet. I started at Christmas last year.
I tried to include some pieces of fruit some weeks ago, but I realized, I like it better without. So far. :)
This is an experiment for me too, very intresting.
I will go on so long as I feel so good as I do now! :)
Inger
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I think you might need to snoop around at other sources other than Doug Graham on this one in regards to insulin. Maybe some conventional paleo/primal gurus like Dr. Harris, and Mark Sisson would have the write ups on even natural sugars as well as allowable amounts of carbs to be within fat burning. At the same time, I'll have to agree with some of the others that no matter what the affects of insulin are on paper, if you are doing well, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to adopt something that for 95% of cases seems to be for people that absolutely cannot tolerate even small amounts of carbs, never mind as a large chunk within a meat/fat based diet. There might be plenty of convincing info that says we are 100% carnivorous and thrive best on such a diet (although I havn't seen any that are truly so) at the same time fruits and other plant sources should be able to be eaten without negative symptoms by a healthy carnivore, not to mention no other supplementation needed.
I believe the crucial thing for Graham, is still the fat %. I don't think he recommends diabetics to add massive amounts of fruit to their already processed or fat heavy diet. Either way, his information has no value in my opinion. Most of the natural hygiene stuff is 100% hypocrisy. they talk about treating causes over symptoms, but 9/10 these types of diets do exactly the opposite. I never had much candida 'symptoms' like fatigue on a high fruit diet for years, yet it was way worse after the diet then before. Those diets just feed fungus and other crap and deprives the body of various nutrients fats and proteins. so you just live on nitro and feel fine and energetic without any healthful detox or repair. oh wait, i'm arguing for fruits...I guess because I know that if I could eat fruits healthfully right now I would, even if that meant some small fraction under perfection of total health.
In a way, it does make sense that because you are doing well and have no health issues, its sort of perfect to have just a strict - no matter what - timeline. To make sure you are pushing through anything temporary and really testing the true effects for yourself. So overall I guess I have no definitive opinion. Just more chatter to consider.
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Inger, you say you eat raw wild edibles - what kind? It's just that most of the RZCers don't seem to focus much on variety or quality of foods. Some don't mind the grassfed issue and eat raw grainfed meats, others just make a point to eat 100% grassfed meats whenever possible, but none, until now, have mentioned eating raw wild game regularly, AFAIK.
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Inger that's interesting. You women seem to have less problems with ZC than men here. I wonder why that is.
I believe the crucial thing for Graham, is still the fat %. I don't think he recommends diabetics to add massive amounts of fruit to their already processed or fat heavy diet. Either way, his information has no value in my opinion.
He puts clients on a two week mono diet, usually bananas. It does seem to work if they are off insulin by the end of first week. I wasn't really promoting a fruitarian way of eating. Just interested about potential insulin resistance because of fruit in my diet. But if fruit is healing diabetics then I see no reason why I should fear them if I am not experiencing health problems. Dr Harris says they are just sugar in an attractive package, candy bars from trees as he likes to call them. But why are the 3000-7000 cal consuming fruitarians not fat if it's just candy? Try eating that same amount in m&m's or even just pasta and see what happens after just few days. I always get lost when I get into the science stuff. They all cite their references and stuff making it look very convincing but then in reality the opposite seems true. That's why I just have to go by my own experience and come to my own conclusions.
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I eat dandelions(flowers), nettels, linden leaves (these are my ultimate favorit), chickweed.. etc.
I think there are someting in wild edibles, that we don't get from meat etc. But I don't eat a lot. ;)
Linden leaves I do eat in larger amounts.
I also by grassfed beef only, I do. Wild game if I get it.
Just if I don't get it on occasion, I eat organic beef. But grassfed tastes so much better!
I think I have no problems, because I am Scandinavian (Norwegian). My grandpa was Scottish.. so I think my genes are just used to eat a lot of meat?
No idea!
But I eat marrow too, and liver, and heart, eggyolks, fish.. everything. That helps a lot, I think! :)
Hier some pics from my food;
This is linden leaves with beefliver(aged) and dried heart mixed with native coconutoil (sorry, but I so love coconutoil!!!).
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5210/kk001.jpg)
And this is grassfed beef with grassfed tallow. And a nettle. ;)
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7080/kk003.jpg)
This is nettlewater, well water with fresh nettles.. let it stay over night, and enjoy. Delicious!
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7048/kk014.jpg)
Hier my teeths from today morning.. I feel this way of eating helps my teeths heal, I do. (even if it does not help them became stright..hehe.. But strong they are! ;) )
(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/6869/hampiit011.jpg)
Inger
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Day 3 without fruit now. Woke up pretty tired. There is weakness in my muscles especially legs. The most obvious thing I'm noticing is the effect on my brain. It is working only 3/10 where before it was 10/10. It really feels like it is not being powered, cut off from energy. My head hurts a bit in the front. Not sure I'll be able to get much work done today.
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actionhiero,
can you post what you eat each day? :)
That would be intresting!
How much fat.. etc.
Are you eating organs etc.? Eggyolks? Have you tried wild edibles?
I count them to ZC too, because they have almost no carbs. Just a LOT of vitamins and minerals. True medicine... maybe you could need some now.. to help you in your transition. ;)
It might take some weeks to feel good. Altough I don't remember this myself, I felt quite good from the beginning.. -\
Inger
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No I don't like greens (lovely pics btw). This is purely a carnivore experiment. Eggs do nothing for me. I can drink 6-8 raw eggs no problem but they are not as nourishing as raw fatty meat. As to what I eat, yesterday I had 600gr of raw ground beef spread over 2 meals. Wasn't even hungry that much and probably could have had just one meal. I'm not really looking for solutions to what is happening. I know what is going on. My body is being deprived of sugar and it hasn't yet adapted to making sufficient energy from fat. A meal of fruit would instantly give me a rush of energy because that is what it has been running on. I'm just reporting what I go through. It might not get better until I get past the 4-6 week barrier.
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Love your pics Inger.
Can you cross post it in the recipes section?
It's just so different when it's a woman, you just have to put some style into it.
Can I blog about your presentation pics?
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No I don't like greens (lovely pics btw). This is purely a carnivore experiment. Eggs do nothing for me. I can drink 6-8 raw eggs no problem but they are not as nourishing as raw fatty meat. As to what I eat, yesterday I had 600gr of raw ground beef spread over 2 meals. Wasn't even hungry that much and probably could have had just one meal. I'm not really looking for solutions to what is happening. I know what is going on. My body is being deprived of sugar and it hasn't yet adapted to making sufficient energy from fat. A meal of fruit would instantly give me a rush of energy because that is what it has been running on. I'm just reporting what I go through. It might not get better until I get past the 4-6 week barrier.
That's what I kept thinking. I kept thinking oohh my body just needs to get adapted to keto.
Never happened. Brainfog for 2 and a half months before I realized it just wasn't gonna happen.
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Love your pics Inger.
Can you cross post it in the recipes section?
I will.
Can I blog about your presentation pics?
Of course. :)
Nice that you like my pics & my food. I love eating this way. With wild edibles it feels like perfect! (of course, in winter here are no greens, but thats fine. When spring comes, I just start popping them again.. no problems with going some time without)
I feel, they solve all the problems about -potassium -magnesium - vit.C -calcium...
All meat eaters in the past, like Indians, Masai.. etc also included wild edibles, when they was available.
That's something folks tend to forget, when ZC... :'( That's is against nature. My cat is pure carnivore, and she ets grass too. ;)
Maybe that is why some ZCers get serious health-problems? -X
Inger
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GS is right, lovely pictures and,yes, the recipes forum(culinary creations) would be an appropriate place.
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That's what I kept thinking. I kept thinking oohh my body just needs to get adapted to keto.
Never happened. Brainfog for 2 and a half months before I realized it just wasn't gonna happen.
I've seen people on other VLC boards that have mentioned up to over 3 months for fat adaptation. I think the other elephant in the room seems to be how much protein is actually being converted into glucose. So those who are not consciously monitoring their fat intake, or have poor protein utilization (like myself possibly? as I am not experiencing any kind of keto super energy yet either) Might not be burning fat for energy at all during periods of all animal foods. Although I can say that my fatigue, brain fog - if I would ever categorize it as that, and other candida symptoms are indeed somewhat better on VLC, just nothing dramatic yet, although I think my body seems to have an extensive laundry list of other crap to do.
Hier some pics from my food;
Inger
Awesome. Is this the most recently profile pic as well? you look like a totally different person than the last.
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Hi KD,
Awesome. Is this the most recently profile pic as well? you look like a totally different person than the last.
Yes, this picture is from yesterday.
The other one was just after I started ZC in January this year. :)
Inger
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http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/6-month-zero-carb-experiment/msg36154/?topicseen#new
Well, judging from the past accounts, those who do well on raw, zero-carb are the ones who already knew they had some sort of food-intolerance towards most carbs by the time they started RZC. At least , all the long-termers are like that(Lex, paleophil etc. etc.)
Actually, I knew I had a problem with gluten and I suspected that I had more problems handling carbs than some other people could, but I had no inkling how extensive the problem was--if I did I would have tried ZC much earlier. I was surprised to learn that even raw whole fruits give me problems.
The catch is the transitionary period which even successful RZCers find mildly inconvenient re symptoms,
I didn't have any of the transition symptoms that others have reported. My early period was actually probably the best. My bowels were the best in decades and I felt euphoric quite often. Improvements have happened each time I've eliminated a food(s) that it turns out I have problems with, then something seems to gradually kick in again--possibly the immune system--and I get some return of some past symptoms, but generally not as bad as before. With ZC and VLC I've had the least relapse of all, so far. My progress seems to have plateaued now, though.
and there are many unsuccessful RZC-triers who have been unable to continue, with most of the latter not managing to get past c.3 weeks or so without experiencing difficulties - a few even get issues at a much earlier date.
Yes, there are some tricks to ZC that the peoples who ate meat-heavy diets learned over thousands of years but which most of us moderners are not aware of. For example, it's apparently important to include organs in the diet and make sure your iodine and magnesium intakes are sufficient and to drink plenty of water (I didn't realize I was dehydrated until I did a Multistix urinalysis). I think that including some plant foods (like greens and herbs and maybe crucifers and roots), seaweeds and sea salt may reduce the risk of nutrient deficiencies, since some animal foods (like brains and blood) are not readily available today.
The other catch(for those who have no issues with carbs at the start) is that as you spend very long periods on a very low RVLC diet or RZC diet, your body changes so that the enzymes/bacteria used to digest carbs are no longer used so that one develops an increasing inability to handle the digestion of any carbs.
I have read about that but oddly haven't experienced it. On the contrary, I seem to be handling carbs a little bit better. I haven't seen anyone else report this, though and I wonder whether adding Dr. Ron's iodine foodlements helped because I noticed it after I started doing that. Vitamin K supplements also appear to be helping reduce (but not eliminate) the dental plaque from carbs.
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Fruit doesn't cause insulin problems, no matter how sugary they are. It's only processed carbs that give you insulin problems.
All plant carbs and honey (including raw honey and even raw comb honey) give me problems like feeling chilled, dry, flaky skin, painful cystic acne, mental fog, fatigue, increased hairloss, etc. Plus, carbohydrate intolerance (www.merck.com/mmpe/sec02/ch017/ch017c.html), fructose malabsorption and hereditary fructose intolerance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose_malabsorption) are known medical conditions. So not everyone does well on fruits.
I think that this will only cause you problems.. I did RZC for 2 months and felt pretty shitty the whole time. Energy and strength was there, but mental clarity and happiness just vanished. I felt brainfog, super irritation and had problems thinking.
Now I've introduced fruit in sizeable quantities to my diet and my skin looks great, even better then rzc, my hair has stopped being greasy and is now very light, shiny and fluffy. And best of all my bowel movements are just super regular and I just feel like my self again, energetic and happy.
My experience was the opposite of yours. I felt better on RZC than any other diet (though adding seaweeds, greens, herbs and a little bit of crucifers didn't noticeably worsen it--it just didn't make it any better other than temporarily raising my urine pH a little, which theoretically might be better). My energy, strength, mental clarity and happiness increased on ZC. My brainfog went away, my thinking and focus improved and my daydreams disappeared. When I reintroduced fruit, I had some return of irritated cystic acne, dry/flaky skin and scalp that is oily at the same time, felt worse again, more fatigued, slept more poorly and the usual mild euphoria from eating raw meats and fats usually does not occur when I include some raw fruits in a meal.
This is why it's so important that we speak only for ourselves when citing our own experience. Our individual experiences do not necessarily apply to everyone. It's dangerous to assume that they do. Some people who report doing really well on fruit (such as Harley Johnstone aka DurianRider) have implied that everyone does and some people who report doing really well on ZC (such as CW of ZIOH and William) also have appeared to imply that everyone does. I think that both extremes are incorrect. I recommend Lex's approach of just speaking for one's self.
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@palephil:
How do you eat the seaweed? Do you get it dried or fresh?
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Dried. I've never seen it sold fresh.
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I have read about that but oddly haven't experienced it. On the contrary, I seem to be handling carbs a little bit better. I haven't seen anyone else report this, though and I wonder whether adding Dr. Ron's iodine foodlements helped because I noticed it after I started doing that. Vitamin K supplements also appear to be helping reduce (but not eliminate) the dental plaque from carbs.
It seems like in the last few weeks I finally have some positive improvements in terms of handling sugary carbs. I was eating 1-2 pieces of fruit every 1-2 weeks, and this week I had 2x days of 2 bananas and once with 2 fuji apples, the occasional dabs of honey, and some beet added to celery/herb juices as a digestive aid. These are probably the highest sugar I can think of, and they havn't been causing the instantaneous ear itching and sometimes feet itching I was experiencing. Still some tiredness, but I think that goes hand and hand when not having carbs as a main fuel source and also the type of carbs in hybrid bananas and apples. I felt totally fine after the beet and honey, although honey is not at all pleasurable for me to eat, and havn't been wowed with any benefits thus far. I don't think I'm ready to to return to eating fruit as any sizeable portion of my diet (even in a pinch, which would be nice if traveling), but I definitely see this as a positive trend in my health.
Judging by the type of symptoms ZC people report, I suspect to a pretty high percentage that there is still some kind of fungus or other issues present, and not at all to do with shifting digestive bacteria, which would manifest differently: 'the runs' etc... [speaking only of small amounts of course, as large quantities of sugar can yield different results].
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Day 4 zero carb. Huge improvement compared to yesterday. The pain in my head is gone now. Yesterday, the pain started in the front of my brain then later moved to the middle part. Was able to get some work done despite this distraction. My muscles seem to be powered almost fully today. It is either some emergency reservoir of glucose that has kicked in or I'm starting to burn fat for fuel. I feel a smooth stable constant flow of energy. Brain still only powered 6/10, but much better than yesterday.
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Interesting to see how you go, there's a fair few people on here who have done well on RZC
-Lex
-Raw Rob
-djr81
-Ioanna
-Inger
-Yon
-Myself
-PaleoPhil
Do you fast? there's so many studies that show benefits of fasting such as higher HGH,T and ghrelin. Interestingly SAS soldiers have high levels of Ghrelin.
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Interesting to see how you go, there's a fair few people on here who have done well on RZC
I'm trying to find out if running on fat is superior to running on sugar. If fat burning proves superior I might purposely keep fruit intake low to stay in that mode, but for now fruit is out until I'm fully adapted.
Do you fast? there's so many studies that show benefits of fasting such as higher HGH,T and ghrelin.
I eat twice a day now at 10.30 and 17.30. So that's a fasting period of 17 hours every day after my last meal. Even before the ZC experiment I noticed that finishing my last meal before 18.00 results in much deeper sleep and more energy in the morning. Late eating interferes with growth hormone secretion. Increased GH levels is one of the things I'm looking forward to as apparently this is another benefit of lower insulin levels. I remember DeVany talked about this at great length in his dvds.
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Some people do well with cold turkey transitions to ZC, whereas others do better with gradual transitions of a week or more. When I polled on this (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/how-did-you-transition-to-zccarnivore/), it varied about equally, so it appears to depend more on the individual than any set rule. So if you encounter difficulties you might try a more gradual transition.
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Some people do well with cold turkey transitions to ZC, whereas others do better with gradual transitions of a week or more. So if you encounter difficulties you might try a more gradual transition.
I was going to do it like include one or two apples a day but I decided not to as full adaption might take longer that way. I literally want to shock my body into creating more mitochondria so I can use fat more efficiently. So unless I start passing out, going into coma or something similar no fruit shall pass through my mouth. Also I just read these two articles by Dr Harris. Didn't understand all of it but from what I did fat-burning gives the best fuel and sugar burning is merely a backup mechanism.
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/5/18/there-are-no-essential-carbohydrates-even-for-athletes.html (http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/5/18/there-are-no-essential-carbohydrates-even-for-athletes.html)
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/8/28/carbohydrates-no-dietary-requirement-but-metabolically-criti.html (http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/8/28/carbohydrates-no-dietary-requirement-but-metabolically-criti.html)
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Yes, and there's another advantage of promoting aerobic cellular respiration by using fats (technically, ketone bodies and beta-hydroxybutyric acid) as the main fuel rather than promoting anaerobic cellular respiration by using carbs as the main fuel. Aerobic cellular respiration promotes the health and biogenesis (production) of mitochondria, which improves one's cardiovascular fitness and reportedly slows aging, whereas anaerobic respiration is the preferred fuel source of cancer cells (see the Warburg hypothesis) and pathogenic obligate anaerobic bacteria (such as those that produce tetanus or botulinum toxins).
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Paleophil, can you explain better what your daily diet is?
How many meals you take every day,how much meat, fat,etc? Do you exercise regularly?
I am thinking of trying ZC because of potential mental benefits. How long did it take for you to improve mentally?
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Well, there is certainly no real-world evidence for longer lifespans on ZC as the Inuit were not known for being particularly long-lived. Plus, there's the Bear's example of throat-cancer which shows that ZC doesn't protect against cancer at all, even after decades.
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I think I can report some first positive benefits on ZC so far. My sense of smell has become like 4 times stronger compared to a week ago. On raw paleo it was already way stronger than on SAD diet but now it seems to have improved even more. I just walked through a park and I could smell the overwhelming scent of flowers from a great distance. The trip on the bus however was a less pleasant experience.
Also I don't think the head ache and brain fog was because of not being keto adapted. It's these little critters that are dying out who were feeding on sugar and either they are dumping something toxic into my blood or it is a byproduct of their death. I can feel that my blood is becoming cleaner and as it does more energy is becoming available to power my body and brain. This could mean improved oxygen uptake of blood and cells.
Sleep has become deeper which could mean GH secretion has increased because of low insulin levels.
Brain is powered 8/10, body might have already surpassed previous state.
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Correction to my last post: I should have written "(anaerobic) cellular fermentation" rather than "anaerobic cellular respiration".
Well, there is certainly no real-world evidence for longer lifespans on ZC as the Inuit were not known for being particularly long-lived. Plus, there's the Bear's example of throat-cancer which shows that ZC doesn't protect against cancer at all, even after decades.
Yeah, I agree that the evidence indicates that Inuit lifespans weren't as long as current Americans' and I neither recommend nor follow Bear's diet or lifestyle and I disagree with some of his views. I also don't think it's necessary or necessarily optimal to precisely emulate Inuit diets. I wasn't referring to any of that, I was referring to the purported benefits of aerobic cellular respiration per basic biology ("Lactic acid fermentation," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid_fermentation. See also "Cellular respiration," http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/science_fair_projects_encyclopedia/Cellular_respiration, and "Biology Notes: Chapter 8 – Respiration," www.helpfulnotes.com/files/biology/bch8.pdf) and the Warburg hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_hypothesis), and findings re: mitochondrial biogenesis and slowdown in cellular aging ("Mitochondria and Aging,"
www.actionbioscience.org/genomic/wallace.html) and nothing more. Here are some links for more info on the connection between ketogenic diets and mitochondrial biogenesis:
> Energy metabolism as part of the anticonvulsant mechanism of the ketogenic diet, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19049599?
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18582445?
> Induction of ketosis may improve mitochondrial function and decrease steady-state amyloid-beta precursor protein (APP) levels in the aged dog, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19168117?
> Mitochondrial biogenesis in the anticonvulsant mechanism of the ketogenic diet, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16807920?
> Polyunsaturated fatty acids of marine origin [EPA and DHA] upregulate mitochondrial biogenesis and induce Beta-oxidation in white fat.
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053209661
Other factors have been reported to promote mitochondrial biogenesis as well, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that fat-heavy diets are the only factor:
> Resveratrol induces mitochondrial biogenesis in endothelial cells, http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/00368.2009v1
> NO Says Yes to Mitochondria, www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/299/5608/838
> Calorie restriction increases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis in healthy humans, http://www.vetscite.org/publish/items/003569/index.html
One doesn't have to be ZC to use cellular respiration. You're own diet (you last reported 5 - 25% carbs, as I recall) is probably low enough in carbs, high enough in fats, and possibly high enough in certain other substances like resveratrol to experience substantial aerobic cellular respiration and we may learn of other plant compounds that promote cellular respiration, which may turn out to partly explain how some peoples, like the Kitavans, do so well on relatively high-carb diets. Some VLC experts have dismissed the Kitavan and Tarahumara examples, but I'm still interested in what we can learn from them. They eat lots of cooked carbs, however, so you may not be interested in those examples. Do you know of any examples of peoples who eat relatively high carb diets that are as raw as those of the Inuit, Chukchi and Nenets? That would be an interesting comparison.
Whether any of this results in any lengthening of lifespan or not I don't know, as there have been no studies investigating that, AFAIK. I was thinking more in terms of quality of life than lifespan. I know that many people appear to place lifespan as a top priority, and it is worth consideration, but my focus tends to be more on quality of life.
Do you have any info that shows aerobic cellular respiration or mitochondrial biogenesis to have bad effects? I'm interested to learn of any downsides to these processes.
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Paleophil, can you explain better what your daily diet is?
How many meals you take every day,how much meat, fat,etc? Do you exercise regularly?
I am thinking of trying ZC because of potential mental benefits. How long did it take for you to improve mentally?
Below are some foods I eat. I don't typically measure my foods, but I eat about 70-80% of calories as fat. I transitioned to VLC gradually in steps, eliminating one or two or three foods at a time. Some times I noticed some mental improvements within a day, sometimes I didn't notice it much until a few weeks or a month later.
I try to incorporate exercise into my daily life rather than focusing on driving to a gym for occasional intense sessions, which seems more artificial to me, though I will have access to a weight room soon that I can walk to. I do significant walking (and rarely drive my car) and brief sprints and stair/hill climbs 5-6 days a week about 3+ miles/day. I do body weight exercises 1-2 times/week like those recommended in this forum by Skinny Devil and by Ben Fury at the Dirty Carnivore forum and by Esther Gokhale and others (and I was doing most of them before I read the advice of these people, thanks in part to the advice of my father, who studied exercise physiology--so their tips were mostly confirmational, which is still important and appreciated). I do some gentle yoga and try to incorporate natural posture and body movements like some of those advocated by Esther Gokhale, as well as using barefoot-style shoes. I use a thera-band at my desk at work for some light exercise and stretching breaks.
Grass-fed ground beef
Suet, grassfed
Ground Venison
Ribeye steak
Salmon, wild fresh
Yellowfin Tuna, Hawaiian sushi grade
Top round steak
Liver, chicken
Liver, GF beef/lamb
Heart, GF beef
Lean pork (loin) for thiamine
Vermont cob-smoked bacon
D'Artagnan uncured duck bacon
Fertile eggs, medium
Kelp
Oysters, wild
Marrow
Berries, black grapes, peaches
Young greens, cabbage, herbs
Dasani Mineral Water
Dried Mackerel
Tea
Pepper, sea salt
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Plus, there's the Bear's example of throat-cancer which shows that ZC doesn't protect against cancer at all, even after decades.
He might have gotten that cancer to manifest 30 years earlier where he not ZC but a fat SAD eater. In that case his ZC did protect him for 30 years. It tells us really nothing. Little children of 2 years old get cancer too, nothing to do with diet in their case just DNA damage.
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He might have gotten that cancer to manifest 30 years earlier where he not ZC but a fat SAD eater. In that case his ZC did protect him for 30 years. It tells us really nothing. Little children of 2 years old get cancer too, nothing to do with diet in their case just DNA damage.
His throat-cancer came about despite/because of his ZC diet , not well before it. Plus, it's known that omega-3s are preventative against cancer,and The Bear, like most ZCers, is a big fan of omega-3-deficient grainfed meats.
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I know of no specific raw vegan diet tribes, though there are a number of vegan tribes. But since humans often eat veg raw and fruit almost always raw for a number of reasons , it is likely that some such tribes have as high a proportion of raw as the Inuit(presumably c,.50%?)
As for the claims re mitochondrial microgenesis etc., there's too little definite data re food-science to be really sure of such vague results. Caloric restriction, at least, has been shown to prolong lifespan but comes at a terrible cost re generalised weakness/ill-health etc.
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... it is likely that some such tribes have as high a proportion of raw as the Inuit(presumably c,.50%?)
Let me know if you come across any like that. That would make for an interesting comparison--a tribe that doesn't cook many tubers but instead eats a lot of raw carbs as compared to the Inuit/Yupik/Nenets/Chukchi/Evenks/etc.
As for the claims re mitochondrial microgenesis etc., there's too little definite data re food-science to be really sure of such vague results. Caloric restriction, at least, has been shown to prolong lifespan but comes at a terrible cost re generalised weakness/ill-health etc.
The only thing I'm sure of is that I'm certain of nothing. Seeking surety about anything is not one of my goals. If you come across anything specific that contradicts the purported benefits or processes of cellular respiration or mitochondrial biogenesis, I would be interested to see it.
Caloric restriction definitely seems too extreme an approach to me, though the proponents of intermittent fasting claim it provides the same benefits as CR without the negative side effects and IF seems more natural than CR. I think Katelyn said that IF is also purported to promote muscle-building hormones. It will be interesting to see what future research produces re: IF.
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This is a great journal. I really appreciate it.
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I think Katelyn said that IF is also purported to promote muscle-building hormones. It will be interesting to see what future research produces re: IF.
IFing / fasting promotes growth hormones. Researchers were surprised to find that subjects who were fasting and eating low carb maintained or built muscle, and they theorize it was the growth hormone released. I certainly have not seen a reduction in muscle since being raw ZC and IFing daily.
I find I can eat more calories when IFing (purposely eating more) and stay leaner, because of the benefits of not raising insulin at other times during the day, and perhaps the growth hormone. Either way, such positives!
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The only catch re IF is that a number of studies have shown lesser results for IF than for caloric restriction, in a number of cases(re lifespan etc.) though of course IF doesn't have the negative side-effects. There's an interesting "fasting" yahoo group which focuses on IF/CR which produces studies on this sort of thing all the time.
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though there are a number of vegan tribes.
Really? Which ones? I was under the impression that no such tribes existed.
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Dried. I've never seen it sold fresh.
Do you just chew on it? Or soak it? I was wondering about the nutritional benefits of eating it raw, as it seems that the nutrients are bound to the fiber which makes assimilation difficult without somehow processing it.
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Really? Which ones? I was under the impression that no such tribes existed.
It's false Weston-Price propaganda which tries to claim there are no vegan tribes or that there are no vegetarian tribes which are reasonably healthy. Here's 1 or 2 examples, there are more which are vegetarian- or strongly vegetarian-leaning such as the Hunzas/Kitavans:-
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2005/01/07/stories/2005010700080200.htm
There was also some vague mention of an iranian vegan tribe who were shown not to have b12 deficiency as they consumed vegetables grown in B12-rich human manure:-
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7d.shtml
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/3/374
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It's false Weston-Price propaganda which tries to claim there are no vegan tribes or that there are no vegetarian tribes which are reasonably healthy. Here's 1 or 2 examples, there are more which are vegetarian- or strongly vegetarian-leaning such as the Hunzas/Kitavans:-
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2005/01/07/stories/2005010700080200.htm
There was also some vague mention of an iranian vegan tribe who were shown not to have b12 deficiency as they consumed vegetables grown in B12-rich human manure:-
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7d.shtml
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/3/374
Well, that rather confirms that there aren't any vegan tribes. Some vague mention of Persian vegans... Maybe some special religious group? Price actually mentioned a lot of populations who predominantly ate plant foods and did well, like the Bantu in Africa or South-Sea Islanders, I also think he mentioned a healthy lacto-vegetarian group in India. Price also recommended a largely vegetarian diet with some dairy and a little animal protein (I think he wrote one sardine a day would suffice or something.) But that is something completely different from being vegan! Vegan would mean that people would eschew animal products in any shape or form. Those tribes probably saw that they could support more people with their largely plant-based diet and probably would have eaten more animal foods if they had had the option.
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You didn't read the above properly. The 1st link concerned certain Aryan tribes in India which focused solely on vegan foods, no other foods. And that group in Iran was a tribe, not a religious sect. Although, granted, several religious offshoots(India etc.) have also practised 100% vegan diets throughout history even until now.
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You didn't read the above properly. The 1st link concerned certain Aryan tribes in India which focused solely on vegan foods, no other foods. And that group in Iran was a tribe, not a religious sect. Although, granted, several religious offshoots(India etc.) have also practised 100% vegan diets throughout history even until now.
Sorry, I was in a hurry and since you mentioned the Kitavans and Hunza I thought it was more in that vain... If that is true, then that's pretty intense... Anyway, WAP just said he didn't find any vegan tribes, which surprised him, because he expected to find some. I think WAP's data was very limited, hence his conclusions may not be 100% accurate... Anyway, I don't think the term "propaganda" fits WAP, unless you mean the WAP Foundation...
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Day 6 on zero carb. Digestion of raw meat/fat has become very smooth. I thought I had perfect digestion on fruit+raw meat. I never had any discomfort after eating and I falsely thought this meant perfect digestion, lol not even close. It is only now that I realize this. Right now it runs like a well oiled machine. Hunger is nonexistent but when food is eaten it is appreciated by the body.
Another thing I can clearly notice now is how energy is generated. Using sugar for fuel is like a tank of gasoline that is burning up. After a fruit meal you feel propelled to move to get rid of the energy. You can't just sit and do nothing. You feel an urge to move just to get rid of something. I can see how fruitarians interpret this as 'motivation to exercise'. And after the exercise the tank is empty and needs to be refilled.
Right now energy is constant and always there. You do not feel like you have to move just to get rid of something. But if you choose to move the energy is there to fuel you fully. And the best thing is after exercise the energy is still there, that constant smooth flow. This is huge, at least for me it is. The way energy is generated now is like a nuclear reactor. You can draw from it as much as you like and there is still more. So before it felt like a tank of energy that can be emptied with use but now it's like a nuclear reactor where you can draw from as much as you like.
Brain is being powered fully now and I suspect things might get really interesting as my body adapts even more. No wonder some ZCers act like they have discovered some secret nobody else knows about. I'll have to seriously reconsider the value of fruit in diet. But I suspect it will be a rare treat once in a while like some sweet juicy oranges on a hot summer day. Purely for enjoyment but no way the most optimal fuel for the body, not even close.
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I have a few questions. What is your ethnic ancestry? How much carbs were you eating daily before this experiment? It seems like your negative symptoms ended after only a few days, do you think you mostly adapted this soon, or do you think this is a temporary up that might be followed by a few more up and down cycles during further adaptation? I ask that last question because when I cut out carbs usually I get a head ache a day or two after starting, which goes away and then I feel good, and if I continue then something else will happen like another head ache or a dizzy spell. The last time I tried zero carb or close to it around 2 weeks in I got a bad dizzy spell at the gym and had to go home early.
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You didn't read the above properly. The 1st link concerned certain Aryan tribes in India which focused solely on vegan foods, no other foods. And that group in Iran was a tribe, not a religious sect. Although, granted, several religious offshoots(India etc.) have also practised 100% vegan diets throughout history even until now.
Tyler, did you even bother to note the name of the Aryan tribe that was mentioned in the article at that link and did you investigate that tribal name any further beyond that biased Hindu article? Did you also happen to note in the photo what's hanging on the corner of the wall of the hut behind that girl?
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decoration only! TD needs to read his links first before posting.
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If you check into these people and learn what they do for a living, the decoration will make sense. ;D You know Tyler doesn't like to read his links, which sometimes results in some good laughs. ;D
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decoration only! TD needs to read his links first before posting.
That's just childish. I did read the article, of course and do read my links. As for the goat, I did in passing assume it was some sort of decoration(normal for antlers to be displayed on walls in the Continent of Europe for example), I guess I was more interested in the female figure in the foreground. But that's by the by. There was that iranian tribe which Halsted mentioned and, of course, numerous religious sects(some Jainites etc.) which practised vegan diets, throughout history.
And , yes, I did note the name of the tribe in the article. However, I used different search-terms as regards their diet (re aryan tribes etc.)so only found the vegan references. Ah, it seems that it's only dairy and poultry that was outlawed. I'm surprised why they would call that vegan in the article.
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I have a few questions. What is your ethnic ancestry?
My parents are from the Balkans.
How much carbs were you eating daily before this experiment?
500-900 kcal from fruit daily
1800-2200 kcal on fruit only days, a couple times a month
It seems like your negative symptoms ended after only a few days, do you think you mostly adapted this soon, or do you think this is a temporary up that might be followed by a few more up and down cycles during further adaptation?
I'm curious about this myself. Frankly I have no idea what will happen. My previous attempt at ZC was before RPD and followed KGHs PaNu protocol. Cooked meat, fried eggs, whole cream, camembert cheese, grassfed butter. It did nothing for me and I did way better as a fruitarian before that. I still think fruit is awesome but recent experiences tell me it interferes with optimal digestion and absorption of nutrients from raw meat/fat. So if I eat a meal of fruit in the future it is purely for enjoyment and delight of the senses not because I think it is somehow needed or is a superior fuel.
As for what happened to you. Have you tried doing a fruit only day once every 2 weeks on ZC? If you are thriving for 2 weeks and have a fruit only day before the dizziness episode you might not get it at all and be able to have another 2 weeks of kick ass time in ZC land. Then repeat ad infinitum. That way you still continue to develop mitochondria, enjoy the benefits of increased GH secretion, maintain low insulin levels and experience the nuclear-like energy from a fat burning metabolism.
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I never tried that, but I would think eating just fruit for a day would disrupt fat burning mechanisms. I don't know this for sure but biochemically and anecdotally it seems that the body adapts faster switching from fat to carbs for fuel than it does the other way 'round.
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After eating nothing but meat/organs for a few weeks I found fruit made me itchy/hungry/crappy. So every few weeks you can eat fruit and get itchy/hungry/crappy.
There's something to just meat.
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I never tried that, but I would think eating just fruit for a day would disrupt fat burning mechanisms. I don't know this for sure but biochemically and anecdotally it seems that the body adapts faster switching from fat to carbs for fuel than it does the other way 'round.
I'm not sure it would 'disrupt' the fat burning metabolism. You are merely switching the fuel for a day but the machinery is still fine tuned to burn fat. It's not like the mitochondria will go away in one day just because you have a day of fruit. What drives this is what food is taken in most of the time, so a metabolism adapted to fat has no problem burning sugar for a short period. A fruit meal on a fat burning metabolism can act like nitrous oxide, a turbo boost of energy. Here's what KGH says
Now here is the good part. When you race, you have new mitochondria and your newly efficient fat-preferring metabolism. Add a moderate carb load and some GU bars if its a long race, and you will be faster than you were before. Glucose is now your nitrous oxide, not your primary fuel.
quoted from
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/5/18/there-are-no-essential-carbohydrates-even-for-athletes.html (http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/5/18/there-are-no-essential-carbohydrates-even-for-athletes.html)
What would however disrupt the fat burning metabolism is having fruit every day. That way you are just confusing the body by switching fuel constantly. And the other negative thing about eating fruit daily is that it seems to interfere with optimal digestion and absorption of nutrients from raw meat/fat. So once in a while fruit is fine and gives a nice boost of extra energy but daily consumption is less than optimal.
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Does anybody have any idea howlong would it take for someone to get cured of candida on ZC? Since the candida feed on sugar after some time without any, it will die. But how long would that be?
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My believe is all this candida stuff is nonsense. It's probably real, but I don't think the theory that starving your self of carbohydrates is the right way to go about it.. Believe me I´ve been down that road.
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My believe is all this candida stuff is nonsense. It's probably real, but I don't think the theory that starving your self of carbohydrates is the right way to go about it.. Believe me I´ve been down that road.
And for all your conviction that it doesn't work I contend that it does, at least for me. I'm not saying that it solves the problem as it has not done this for me yet but my symptoms greatly diminish and then eventually (over months) disappear when eating strictly carnivore (and low liver intake).
While starving the Candida of carbs may not seem the right way for you I personally think continuing to feed the overgrowth carbs in anything other than tiny amounts can lead to long-term complications. FWIW I would say with 90% certainty my extensive food allergies came about due to Candida-induced permeable gut.
As of late I've been refining things that make a raw carnivore diet easier for me recovering from Candidiasis.
I've found that the intermittent fasting (even in the form of one meal a day) do me no good (maybe I have some adrenal fatigue?) so I try to eat 3 smaller meals a day but at least get 2 in each day.
I've also found that I was eating too high a ratio of lean to fat before. Not only is this important for energy reasons but it's more important because what I wasn't using could feed the Candida. Now that a high percentage of my calories on a given day, perhaps even as much as 85% (I should do the math some day), is from fat I find my recovery this round is hastened.
In order to make "ZC" as successful as can be I need to make sure I get some strenuous activity every day. This can even be a long walk at a brisk pace or a simple hike but you need to keep your systems flowing. If I get enough exercise I sleep less but feel more rested, and vice versa. This same energy helps reduce any lingering brain fog.
I need a bit of sea salt due to low blood pressure.
Lastly, water is your friend. Drink lots of it but in frequent smaller quantities (If I have too much at once it sometimes flushes my guts out). Don't drink 1/2 hour before eating or at least an hour after eating as it fucks up digestion.
These are my guidelines to make things function best as a raw carnivore for me. Your mileage may vary.
Does anybody have any idea howlong would it take for someone to get cured of candida on ZC? Since the candida feed on sugar after some time without any, it will die. But how long would that be?
8ish months solid raw carnivore made me feel like it was gone. A couple binges with fruit over the next month and a fair deal of the symptoms came back. To be honest with you it may very well take years to resolve and I'd still follow a LC/VLC diet for a while after that just to make sure the Candida stays in balance.
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Lastly, water is your friend.
This is huge. I drink 5 liters of water right now. A week ago before ZC it was 3 liters. Fruitarians also drink huge amounts of water, around 4-6 liters despite eating fruit all day long. This could be because they urinate 14-20 times a day. SAD eaters I have observed drink only about 1-2 liters and it's mostly soda or coffee, very little water. So not only are they chronically clogged up with toxins from diet related inflammation but they are also chronically dehydrated and not able to flush that stuff out. No wonder they need stimulants all day long.
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This is huge. I drink 5 liters of water right now. A week ago before ZC it was 3 liters. Fruitarians also drink huge amounts of water, around 4-6 liters despite eating fruit all day long. This could be because they urinate 14-20 times a day. SAD eaters I have observed drink only about 1-2 liters and it's mostly soda or coffee, very little water. So not only are they chronically clogged up with toxins from diet related inflammation but they are also chronically dehydrated and not able to flush that stuff out. No wonder they need stimulants all day long.
I drink 1/2 to 1 gallon of water a day but usually err towards 1/2 gallon (~ 2 liters) right now. This is what my body tells me I need so I'm not forcing more beyond that. On a very hot day or a day with lots of strenuous activity I do take in much more.
FWIW I do not exhibit any signs of dehydration with this amount, barring noticeably yellow urine which I attribute to the large amount of fat I ingest, and I've even kept my hypostatic orthotension at bay by upping my water to this level.
I also only urinate 3-4 times per day so I'm obviously using most of that water and not just passing it through me.
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For me it's usually 1,5 liter upon arising, 1,5 liter after exercise and throughout the day another 2 liters. Makes me think that some might be experiencing problems on ZC because of insufficient water intake. Could be something those people might look into.
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I'm not sure it would 'disrupt' the fat burning metabolism. You are merely switching the fuel for a day but the machinery is still fine tuned to burn fat.
One thing I think you're overlooking is the change in gut bacteria. Your mitochondria can just work on the pyruvate that is produce from the splitting of sugars, but the bacteria in your gut that is adapted to a fat and protein diet with almost no carb content will not be able to digest the carbs as well as the bacteria in a moderate or high carb eaters gut. I don't know what problem that might cause, but I'd guess moderate indigestion at the very least.
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but the bacteria in your gut that is adapted to a fat and protein diet with almost no carb content will not be able to digest the carbs as well as the bacteria in a moderate or high carb eaters gut
Is this really such a problem? You complained about dizziness on ZC 2 weeks in. If having a fruit meal once in a while prevents your dizziness episode who cares if it's not digested 'perfectly'. I personally wouldn't be bothered by some dizziness. It is probably the last bunch of the sugar critters dying out and asking for a nice load of sugar.
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Day 10 on zero carb. I feel that my instincts have somewhat increased in the last couple of days. I feel more aware and in command of the space around me. The last 2 months the biggest changes I've made that have really made a difference are to finish eating before 18.00 and recently going 100% zero carb. My next thing to implement is aligning my sleep patterns with the circadian rhythm. This one might be the most challenging so far. I've been going to sleep at 1.30-2.00 for years now. I want to move this to 21.30-22.00 and get up around 5.30-6.00 instead of 9.30-10.00. I'm very motivated to do this especially after reading Early Rising by Benjamin Franklin. For those interested the book can be read for free
http://books.google.com/books/pdf/Early_to_Bed__and_Early_to_Rise__Makes_a.pdf?id=oLkOAAAAIAAJ&output=pdf&sig=5KU_0tOtO6vswn49YfDKX9XdzJE (http://books.google.com/books/pdf/Early_to_Bed__and_Early_to_Rise__Makes_a.pdf?id=oLkOAAAAIAAJ&output=pdf&sig=5KU_0tOtO6vswn49YfDKX9XdzJE)
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Is this really such a problem?
I'm saying that it could be. I guess when your experiment is up you could try eating a day of just fruit. Maybe it wouldn't be a problem, maybe it would cause a lot of bloating and not be digested well at all. As for the dizziness, I think it was just temporary and don't think it was that which derailed my zc experiment. I probably went to a party or something and drank beer lol
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Day 10 on zero carb. I feel that my instincts have somewhat increased in the last couple of days. I feel more aware and in command of the space around me. The last 2 months the biggest changes I've made that have really made a difference are to finish eating before 18.00 and recently going 100% zero carb. My next thing to implement is aligning my sleep patterns with the circadian rhythm. This one might be the most challenging so far. I've been going to sleep at 1.30-2.00 for years now. I want to move this to 21.30-22.00 and get up around 5.30-6.00 instead of 9.30-10.00. I'm very motivated to do this especially after reading Early Rising by Benjamin Franklin. For those interested the book can be read for free
http://books.google.com/books/pdf/Early_to_Bed__and_Early_to_Rise__Makes_a.pdf?id=oLkOAAAAIAAJ&output=pdf&sig=5KU_0tOtO6vswn49YfDKX9XdzJE (http://books.google.com/books/pdf/Early_to_Bed__and_Early_to_Rise__Makes_a.pdf?id=oLkOAAAAIAAJ&output=pdf&sig=5KU_0tOtO6vswn49YfDKX9XdzJE)
Hey I think that is an awesome idea with the sleeping pattern! I have been getting up at 5 am every single day (in summer earlier, when the sun rises) since 2007 after years of sleeping in. I feel much more awake throughout the whole day and get much more done! It was actually not as hard as I initially thought it would be!
Hope you will suceed - wishing you best of luck!
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I don't think it's hard at all physically, it's just hard in social terms as a lot of social life takes place during the late hours.
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Went to bed at 24.00 and was planning to get up at 8.00. Couldn't fall asleep until 1.00 but did wake up at 7.00 after only 6 hours of sleep. I was surprisingly well rested and jumped out of bed with enthusiasm to face the day. Franklin was right when he said the world looks fresh and new in the morning. I think making this change of such an ingrained habit is so much easier because of raw zero carb, mostly because of the absence of stimulants and better hormonal function. I probably would not have woken up well rested if I had a supersized mcdonalds meal late last night. I'm only now beginning to reflect back how my past habits from SAD days must have affected my body and mind at the time. Anyways I'll keep this journal strictly focused on my zero carb experiment and not go into details about the sleep stuff. I might mention other positive changes I'm making but the focus of this journal will be the zero carb experience.
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You can go a step further and spend as much time as possible outside with as little clothes on as possible.
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Yesterday I visited my mother and she made baby back ribs which is my favorite dish from childhood. It was my first cooked meat in a while and I didn't have any problems with it. I tried eating raw pork some time ago and didn't like it but the baby back ribs tasted heavenly. Today the surface of my tongue feels a bit sore. This could be due to the salt that was on the meat. Haven't had salt for months on raw paleo. No carbs were consumed. It didn't even cross my mind.
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Hi Actionhero,
I have made this experience, that when I eat ZC raw(inkl. occasional greens) I tolerate cooked meat quite well, just a tiny drop in energy, maybe. I have eaten mostly rare meat then, in Restaurants.
BUT. If I eat Fruits(I mean at all, not in the same meal, that I would never do), I get bad reactions from cooked. Like heavy toothpain etc.
How do that comes...?
Do anybody have an explanation?
Inger
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So, honestly, do you feel better or worse then when you were eating fruits?
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So, honestly, do you feel better or worse then when you were eating fruits?
Just as good really, but on zero carb you get these benefits
-a limitless supply of energy, it's there all the time
-better digestion and absorption of nutrients from raw meat/fat
-low insulin levels, more growth hormone secretion, better deeper sleep
-no hunger ever
With fruit you get the short sugar high as your blood glucose levels rise but
-it interferes with optimal digestion of raw meat/fat
-you will experience hunger which is not true hunger but craving for more fruit
-the energy is not a stable constant flow like you experience on ZC
-it is more like a gasoline tank that can be emptied very fast
If nothing changes in 6 months I will not include fruit back in my daily diet. After 2 weeks on ZC I have observed only benefits from dropping fruit. So there you have your answer.
BUT. If I eat Fruits(I mean at all, not in the same meal, that I would never do), I get bad reactions from cooked. Like heavy toothpain etc.
How do that comes...?
I don't know, maybe they get sensitive from fruit and you only notice it when having to chew something hard like cooked meat.
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What do you mean by 'no hunger ever'...? I don't see how this is possible. Please explain, in detail.
p.s. DANG that is weird. Actionhero, I 'always' thought your pic was of a Gorilla. As I started to think 'Why would a carnivore have a pic of a gorilla' I looked closer and noticed it appeared to be some kind of cat. I'm trying to look at it again and see it as a Gorilla, but I can't now =D
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ActionHero, I don't know whether there's anything to it, but Dr. Jay Wortman claimed that VLCers/ZCers may need to consume some salt, because he indicated that his patients excreted more salt when they went VLC--and some got constipated, which reportedly resolved with increased salt intake. It hasn't made a noticeable difference in my case, though, but maybe I'm not consuming enough. Since I don't have access to blood (a "Paleo" source of salt), I add sea salt or seaweed (another Paleo source of salt, as well as iodine) to some of my foods.
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I never drank the blood on it's own, but it was SO BRILLIANT when I got this grass-fed beef and it came with LOADS of blood. I would allow it to soak up a load of blood before each bite. The blood even smells so wonderful. It's a shame most places drain the blood out...
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What do you mean by 'no hunger ever'...? I don't see how this is possible. Please explain, in detail.
I have 2 meals a day now, at 8.30 and 16.30. There is about 8 hours between them. I'm never hungry when I start the second meal and I would have no problem not eating until next morning. I have eaten 500gr fatty ground beef in the morning and then skipped the second meal without feeling hungry the whole day or even the next morning.
ActionHero, I don't know whether there's anything to it, but Dr. Jay Wortman claimed that VLCers/ZCers may need to consume some salt, because he indicated that his patients excreted more salt when they went VLC--and some got constipated, which reportedly resolved with increased salt intake. It hasn't made a noticeable difference in my case, though, but maybe I'm not consuming enough. Since I don't have access to blood (a "Paleo" source of salt), I add sea salt or seaweed (another Paleo source of salt, as well as iodine) to some of my foods.
I don't know how salty blood really is. I remember tasting my own blood sometimes after a cut and it tasted metallic like, never salty. There may be some blood in the ground beef I am buying but not very much. The little salt that was on the meat my mom prepared did cause the surface of my tongue to feel a bit sore so I'm not sure how much we really need. I can't imagine constipation on raw ZC, maybe it happens only on cooked ZC.
You can go a step further and spend as much time as possible outside with as little clothes on as possible.
I do half an hour shirtless sunbathing every day on my balcony when there is sun. Been doing it since the fruitarian period.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8493042.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8493042.stm)
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lol... So that's all people mean..? What bs...
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That's one of the things I hate about RZC.. Only eating 1-2 meals a day is so boring... Eating many small meals a day of fruit and lean meat is fun : )
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lol... So that's all people mean..? What bs...
I don't think its bs. I'm sure some people mean different things, but there is a huge difference from feeling hungry all the time, and even shortly after eating (that some rightly or wrongly associate with carb consumption) and having to eat scheduled meals because of lack of hunger. My experience is the same, that many days I could probably go without dinner and be fine psychologicaly or in terms of energy. The problem I find is my body does seem to require some fixed amount of substance (calories whathaveyou) to maintain weight so this presents difficulties for myself sometimes just eating meat and fat. Of course carbs never contribute greatly calorically, but if I can squeeze in other animal foods that usually changes things up some.
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Of course, I have the same experience... But to say you 'never get hungry' makes it seem like... you would never get hungry... When actually people mean, they can eat every day, and not be hungry... Which isn't the same as eating a diet where you would never get hungry... It's just because he eats before he gets hungry, and that's less frequently because his meals satiate him for longer. I found it very misleading, up until this point, when people said they never get hungry on ZC. I actually thought there was something wrong with me, that I would get hungry whilst every other ZCer here claims not to... So to say 'on ZC you never get hungry' which many ZC people say, is bs... They'd say stuff like 'I could forget to eat'... This is actually then, because they think they have to eat 3 meals a day, so if I only eat one they think they 'never get hungry' and they've 'forgotten to eat' as if they needed to... I only eat one meal a day... I do get hungry... I eat when I'm hungry... I couldn't understand how it could be a good thing to 'never get hungry', as in hunger, the stomache builds up acids and the digestive system prepares itself in general prepare for food. Yet I seemed to be the only one who got hungry on ZC. I think it's because most ZC people a quoting from one ZC person, who referred to it as 'never getting hungry', perhaps to sell it in some way to people who want to lose weight... Actually, you should say 'I get hungry less frequently than when I ate carbohydrates... They probably like to say 'they never get hungry', because they see hunger as a bad thing, meaning they have to consume calories... whereas I just see it as it is.
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not if you can frame it as it is meant in terms of day to day and implied in comparison to other approaches. You can't extended it into some indefinite space and expect it to maintain true.
Its like saying " I never burn in the sun or sweat considerably". You can't tie the same person to a pole in the Sahara for a week and expect this to still be true. Other than that, you probably make some good points, especially eating once per day. The issue I'm guessing is whether that hunger is debilitating (like when others complain of low blood sugar and such) that you absolutely had to eat every 24 hours or be unable to function. Other than that it seems from other threads like you really work up an appetite. So I probably would not read too much into what others say in the future, especially if they have different goals and lifestyle. But I think many would argue it isn't just the satiation from food, as in some cases people are eating less calorically and feeling less hungry than with carbs.
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That's one of the things I hate about RZC.. Only eating 1-2 meals a day is so boring...Eating many small meals a day of fruit and lean meat is fun : )
I don't eat for pleasure. I eat to have energy to perform in the real world, make stuff happen and have a kick ass life. That's what gives me pleasure not the taste of food. To me eating once and having tons of energy the rest of the day is extremely liberating because it allows me to focus on things that are important to me. And since our time on earth is finite everything that frees up time and gives more energy is a good thing. But I see where you are coming from. When I used to eat like that I used to think like that too. Nothing wrong with it, it's raw paleo and anything raw paleo is power, energy and vitality. I just intuitively felt there was some next level and ZC might very well be it.
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I don't know how much salt is in blood either, but blood does at times taste salty to me and other people have reported that it contains it. I did have chronic constipation (based on the Bristol scale) on raw ZC and still have it on raw VLC (and adding some plant foods didn't help noticeably at all). It nearly resolved for 2-3 weeks on ZC, but then returned (though it's not as bad as it was on SAD, vegetarian and near-vegetarian).
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I don't know how much salt is in blood either, but blood does at times taste salty to me and other people have reported that it contains it. I did have chronic constipation (based on the Bristol scale) on raw ZC and still have it on raw VLC (and adding some plant foods didn't help noticeably at all). It nearly resolved for 2-3 weeks on ZC, but then returned (though it's not as bad as it was on SAD, vegetarian and near-vegetarian).
Start eating more fruit and I guarantee you your constipation will vanish.
Mango, oranges and pineapple are specially good. Apples, bananas (starchy fruit) not so great for constipation
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I don't know how much salt is in blood either, but blood does at times taste salty to me and other people have reported that it contains it. I did have chronic constipation (based on the Bristol scale) on raw ZC and still have it on raw VLC (and adding some plant foods didn't help noticeably at all). It nearly resolved for 2-3 weeks on ZC, but then returned (though it's not as bad as it was on SAD, vegetarian and near-vegetarian).
When I was on RZC, my stools were extremely infrequent and very small. I didn't view it as constipation, though, just a sign of nearly complete digestion. I'm just thinking that you might have misinterpreted your results.
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Tyler, I respect how you convey most things in a balanced way.
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I didn't view it as constipation, though, just a sign of nearly complete digestion.
I experienced constipation on cooked ZC that included lots of cream and full fat cheese. My digestion now on RZC is better than ever and is nothing like what I experienced before. A lot can change in 6 months but right now it does feel like 'nearly complete digestion' and absorption of nutrients from raw meat/fat. I'll also be adding raw eggs back to see if they are more nourishing now on ZC. Never had problems with them but I considered them a weak food compared to raw meat. But my previous conclusion could be wrong because I had less perfect digestion before ZC.
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I just read this interesting article. People who eat fruit may want to read this.
http://main.uab.edu/Sites/MediaRelations/articles/75217/ (http://main.uab.edu/Sites/MediaRelations/articles/75217/)
"The first meal you have appears to program your metabolism for the rest of the day," said study senior author Martin Young, Ph.D., associate professor of medicine in the UAB Division of Cardiovascular Disease. "This study suggests that if you ate a carbohydrate-rich breakfast it would promote carbohydrate utilization throughout the rest of the day, whereas, if you have a fat-rich breakfast, you have metabolic plasticity to transfer your energy utilization between carbohydrate and fat."
Bray said the research team found that fat intake at the time of waking seems to turn on fat metabolism very efficiently and also turns on the animal's ability to respond to different types of food later in the day. When the animals were fed carbohydrates upon waking, carbohydrate metabolism was turned on and seemed to stay on even when the animal was eating different kinds of food later in the day.
Now I know why I intuitively didn't want to eat high fat on days that I consumed fruit. I had fruit in the morning and then if I had a high fat meal later in the day something felt not right. According to the study if fruit was consumed as your first meal then you can't switch back to a fat burning metabolism that same day. I don't agree with the conclusion that fruit is ok after a high fat meal. From my experience if you want to eat high fat raw it's best to stay zero carb the whole day and then eat fruit the next day. And if you had fruit for breakfast it's best to eat only lean meat that day.
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I just read this interesting article. People who eat fruit may want to read this.
http://main.uab.edu/Sites/MediaRelations/articles/75217/ (http://main.uab.edu/Sites/MediaRelations/articles/75217/)
Now I know why I intuitively didn't want to eat high fat on days that I consumed fruit. I had fruit in the morning and then if I had a high fat meal later in the day something felt not right. According to the study if fruit was consumed as your first meal then you can't switch back to a fat burning metabolism that same day. I don't agree with the conclusion that fruit is ok after a high fat meal. From my experience if you want to eat high fat raw it's best to stay zero carb the whole day and then eat fruit the next day. And if you had fruit for breakfast it's best to eat only lean meat that day.
Very interesting. Not surprising though, as age old (in the world of genetics) research on e-coli shows that glucose digesting DNA codes are always preferred to other energy molecules. There's something very primal (as in from the bacterial history of all life) to sugar digestion. You might consider it a vestigial function, used in special occasions in some animals (like humans).
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Day 19 on zero carb. I'm thriving. I sleep only 5 to 6 hours a day and have more energy and vitality than when I slept 8-9 hours. I'm drinking raw eggs and extracting everything from them. Within 20 minutes after drinking 4 eggs I notice how my vision becomes sharper and colors brighter. This didn't happen after drinking raw eggs when I had fruit in my diet. So this to me is another sign I'm extracting nutrients more efficiently on ZC. Right now all I'm eating is raw lean meat, raw fatty ground beef and raw eggs. The depth of appreciation my body has developed for raw meat/fat has increased even more. I feel it nourishing me more than ever and on a deeper level.
If I could go back and give recommendations to my SAD eating self this would be it:
-3 weeks 100% fruitarian diet to stop chronic inflammation and start CLEANING crap out
-then a couple months of fruit+raw lean meat daily for REGENERATION, REBUILDING and DETOX, plus a zero carb high fat raw day a couple times a month to keep hormone levels high
-once you feel healed switch over to ZC high fat burning metabolism to start THRIVING. A fruit meal a couple times a month is optional and might be beneficial for some minerals and vitamins. Effect of fruit on a 100% fat burning metabolism I will know once I try a fruit meal but right now any craving for sugar is nonexistent.
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I'm amazed at how fast you seem to have adapted, compared to others accounts. You paint a great picture of the experience, makes me want to try it again.
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Yay, I'm glad for another raw ZC success story! :D
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i'm new at this, it sounds great, but could it be an amino acid surplus reaction? also, switching to a vegan diet, or fasting causes a (adrenaline?) rush that slowly ebbs over time - thoughts?
it reminds me of plains indians diets, 100% buffalo, intestines & all.
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Something dawned on me today. Maybe it wasn't the sugar in fruit that caused less than optimal digestion of raw meat/fat. It could have been the fiber and the fermentation thereof that was somehow interfering with the digestion and absorption of nutrients (from raw meat/fat). The recent discovery that raw eggs are now being digested and absorbed completely makes me want to experiment even further. I want to try raw grass-fed butter and raw honeycomb. I never got to try Aajonus' famous lubrication formula. It's raw eggs+raw butter+raw honey. I have no intention to do the primal diet all the way as I'm quite certain that I don't want raw milk, raw cheese, raw cream or vegetable juice in my diet.
But I do want to try raw butter, raw honeycomb and high meat on my much improved digestion. If honeycomb doesn't interfere with digestion of raw meat/fat like fruit does then the experiment will become 'zero fruit' and animal foods only. I have no sugar cravings on ZC, just looking again to see if there is a next level. Also I have no intention to eat fruit again. I'm quite certain about this. I'll keep you folks posted. Thanks for reading my journal and commenting with valuable knowledge, it's much appreciated.
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Looks great, your ZC experiment actionhero! :)
I had no problems with switching to ZC eather, just a bit dry lips and strange taste in mouth.. l) And I was thirsty..
Now I just feel good!
OK, I am eating some wild edibles almost every day. ;) But these have almost no carbs.
I think the same as you with the fruits.. it could be the fiber. Strangely I don't feel any problems with digestion if I eat a occasional organic papaya, I eat the seeds and all. But this happends maybe once/month or something.
I am curios how you will feel about the honey-butter-egg-mix!
It sounds delicious for sure..
Inger
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Ok, tried raw butter and didn't like it at all. It just didn't agree with my system. I might or might not try raw honeycomb. But I'm thinking why even bother.
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But I do want to try raw butter, raw honeycomb and high meat on my much improved digestion.
I think I missed a step here, you went out yesterday and got raw grass-fed butter? how/how much did you eat? when and what were the problems etc...?
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Ok, tried raw butter and didn't like it at all. It just didn't agree with my system. I might or might not try raw honeycomb. But I'm thinking why even bother.
Your system probably needs to get used to it. I would give it a few weeks before you write it off. Although I personally don't eat any dairy.
I had a lot of problems when I ate raw meat for the first time. Heart palpitations, higher blood pressure, fatigue. Same as when I started eating fruit again. Stomach aches, fatigue.
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Ok, tried raw butter and didn't like it at all. It just didn't agree with my system. I might or might not try raw honeycomb. But I'm thinking why even bother.
Its not fair! You allocate 6 months for ZC while ruling the butter out just after one meal ;)
"Some" claim it is so powerful that can even reverse the damage from the poisonous death cap!!! :o
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Your system probably needs to get used to it.
IDK, could say the same for twinkies.
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Kind of an overstatement.
I'm not advocating dairy. I don't have experience with raw dairy. I'm just saying that dropping something because it doesn't work straight away is not right.
If that was the case I would still be eating SAD this very moment.
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Emm yeah that's right, I tried 60 gr of raw grass-fed butter on empty stomach and it made me go to the bathroom several times today. Plus it made my body feel dirty and heavy. The ZC euphoria and sense of lightness disappeared in a instant and was replaced by this heavy crap feeling. No way am I touching that stuff ever again.
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I don't really agree with either extreme. I was actually more shocked that you procured it so quickly than the results. here its like you gotta make an appointment to go to a farm or get a delivery. I tend to think butter has potentially detoxifying effects but that argument is not worth discussing in this thread. Even considering that I would agree it is not from experience a high energy type of food and seems to be a roadblock then a benefit right now. Have you tried higher animal fat yet and its effect on energy?
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I tried butter years ago and ate about 100grams. ruined my day and crapped it out. I had high hopes also.
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I tried (not raw) anchor butter several times.
It doesn't work for me.
My kids don't like it either.
I stopped buying it.
I don't have access to raw butter.
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I might give raw butter more of a chance if I were you. I know suet feels like it gets stuck in my chest, and bothers me for hours. Seems like I don't digest it after either.
Your system probably needs to get used to it. I would give it a few weeks before you write it off. Although I personally don't eat any dairy.
I had a lot of problems when I ate raw meat for the first time. Heart palpitations, higher blood pressure, fatigue. Same as when I started eating fruit again. Stomach aches, fatigue.
First time I tried raw (grass-fed cultutred) butter it made me empty my bowels over and over. Same thing happened every day I ate it for a month. After that it was smooth sailing. Raw (fresh grass-fed possibly triple ground) beef gave me reactions the first time. I still don't do so well with beef. Pasteurized butter I could eat some of many years ago. It made me sick when I tried it more recently, so sick, it took me months to recover even though I did not continue eating it.
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I know suet feels like it gets stuck in my chest, and bothers me for hours. Seems like I don't digest it after either.
PRECISELY!!! Suet forms a brick inside of me whereas I hardly notice that I have eaten butter. Moreover, as opposed to suet butter never produces a foul smelling stools. It is by far the most stable animal fat.
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I just bought raw honeycomb and will try it later with raw eggs. Yesterday I recovered pretty quickly after eating a large meat meal. As for people who say I should give raw butter some time before I cut it out completely, not gonna happen. So I should endure stomach upset and feeling like shit for a month just so I can eat it? Lol, it's not like it will make me fly or something. I just wanted to test out how I would react to raw butter and now I know. Stupid move and my body let me know. I'm doing better than ever now and don't want to screw up my blood chemistry, hormonal balance or digestion. Just looking for something that could improve it even more.
I was actually more shocked that you procured it so quickly than the results. here its like you gotta make an appointment to go to a farm or get a delivery.
Our country is a dairy country. You can find raw butter on pretty much every market here.
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that was the part I found somewhat suspicious, truly raw butter will not be able to sit on a shelf anywhere and have any lasting value, its super expensive to produce also which makes it unprofitable to sell much less than 100%. like typical store products.
was it in a package or you bought it from a farmer's market?
according to Real Milk, truly raw dairy is rare in Holland. although the quote here only applies to cheese.
"Raw Cheeses? Real Milk correspondent Rob Hundscheit has compiled a list of "raw" cheeses available in Holland and Germany. However, he warns, "the cheese here is 99% pasteurised or sterilised - even the "raw" cheese here is heated between a temperature between 43 and almost 70 degrees Celcius (102 and 150 degree Fahrenheit).)."
http://www.realmilk.com/where-other.html#nl
I still think you are right to continue with your ZC experiment and what is working, but the argument isn't that you eat it until you get used to it, but that the symptoms are in the end positive. Theres no shortage of disagreement with that especially on this site, but there is a bit of a difference in interpretation there. It also seems to be equally common for the same logic to be applied to eggs, poultry, pork, fruit, fish, seafoods, and water.
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I'm not talking about commercial supermarket butter. When I say market I mean the market in the open where dairy farmer's bring dairy, beekeepers bring honey and candles, and fruit/veg importers bring their stuff. The raw butter is called 'boerenboter' translated 'farmers butter' and you have to ask for it but they do have it.
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rawlion what's your reaction to pasteurized butter? I've never tried raw butter, but react terribly bad to pasteurized butter. Gives me immediate diarrhea and nausea. Tallow on the other hand I don't get such a reaction. So cooked suet is easier to digest for me than cooked butter, but I have never been able to compare raw suet to raw butter, so can only assume from their cooked counterparts. I do however do terrible with raw coconut oil which I believe is more similar to butter than suet.
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rawlion what's your reaction to pasteurized butter? I've never tried raw butter, but react terribly bad to pasteurized butter. Gives me immediate diarrhea and nausea. Tallow on the other hand I don't get such a reaction. So cooked suet is easier to digest for me than cooked butter, but I have never been able to compare raw suet to raw butter, so can only assume from their cooked counterparts. I do however do terrible with raw coconut oil which I believe is more similar to butter than suet.
I ate pasteurized butter only a couple of times way back when I was on the conventional diet. I didn't have any problems just as with the other foods.
If I had any diarrhea and/or nausea I wouldn't eat it for sure. Everybody is different.
Under the perfect conditions (i.e. optimal digestion, availability etc.) my priority sources of fats would have been (in a descending order):
- raw bone marrow (from never vaccinated/dewormed preferably wild animals);
- raw tongue/brain (from never vaccinated/dewormed preferably wild animals);
- raw subcutaneous fat (from never vaccinated/dewormed preferably wild animals);
- raw suet (from never vaccinated/dewormed preferably wild animals);
- raw butter (from never vaccinated/dewormed animals);
- raw butter (from yearly vaccinated/dewormed animals at least four weeks after the vaccination).
I think I wouldn't follow the high fat diet if I could only get heated fats or raw non-dairy fats from occasionally vaccinated/dewormed animals.
I make the butter myself. My butter is cultured butter because its is produced from the fermented cream and not from the fresh milk (conventional method).
I only use coconut oil when I feel that my bowels are stuck. It gives me horrible stomach pain, nausea and diarrhea which is just what I am after.
apologies to the author of the thread for straying from the subject
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wtf rawlion?
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Raw bone marrow is my primary source of fat. It is delicious! I have to admit that I don't like raw egg yolks so I -gasp-cook them. So I am 99% raw. I don't like wet food, so I air dry my steaks and ground beef, but I cannot air-dry egg yolks (I do not think). But I love eggs for their nutritional profile and I do not want to give them up because I cannot stand wet yolks. I stay as raw as possible, but still think slightly cooked ZC is healthier than anything else out there, save raw ZC.
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Update on raw honeycomb. I took a tablespoon of raw honeycomb and mixed it with 4 raw eggs. Tasted very good. I expected an insane sugar high followed by a crash but it didn't happen. No excessive urination or feeling tired, even hours after the drink. Might have something to do with consuming the whole thing not just the honey. One thing I'm noticing is that I'm much less thirsty now compared to when I start my day with a ground beef meal. I was starting to get a bit bothered by being so thirsty and having to drink so much water every day. I've been drinking this raw H&E drink once a day for 3 days now and it somehow takes away the thirst. I might make this raw drink my daily breakfast if no negative things come from it.
apologies to the author of the thread for straying from the subject
Don't worry about it. As far as I'm concerned you are on topic and adding value to the discussion.
Raw bone marrow is my primary source of fat. It is delicious!
A lot of people mention raw bone marrow. I'll have to try it soon.
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... Right now all I'm eating is raw lean meat, raw fatty ground beef and raw eggs
You might want to consider adding some animal organs. Lex includes organs with his ground beef and fat. Iodine, magnesium and salt levels tend to be very low in modern carnivorous diets, so some other foods to consider are seafood (fish, shellfish, seaweed), young greens and/or sea salt, but Lex seems to do fine without these.
Re: raw comb honey, I recommend getting a free blood glucose test kit and then testing your blood sugars before you eat it and 1 and 2 hours afterwards. I noticed only small negative physical effects from eating raw comb honey, but when I tested my BG I found it spiked it terribly--so I don't recommend that you go by your own perceptions only.
...First time I tried raw (grass-fed cultutred) butter it made me empty my bowels over and over. Same thing happened every day I ate it for a month. After that it was smooth sailing. ...
Good lord! A single test may be insufficient, but I would never keep eating any food that gave me diarrhea for a month straight! :o And even if the diarrhea eventually stopped I would have to wonder what it was doing to my system in an unseen manner at the cellular level.
PRECISELY!!! Suet forms a brick inside of me whereas I hardly notice that I have eaten butter. Moreover, as opposed to suet butter never produces a foul smelling stools. It is by far the most stable animal fat.
In my experience suet digests better when thoroughly chewed (someone here tipped me off that salivary amylase digests fat as well as carbs). It's still harder to digest than marrow, but much less expensive and I don't have a source for grassfed marrow (I buy supermarket marrow every 2-3 weeks, but it seems to be a mediocre product--I'm hoping to try grassfed marrow some day). Suet also tastes better and goes down easier if I air-dry it first. Granted, suet is more difficult to digest than marrow. I fare poorly on pastured, cultured, pasteurized butter, ghee and raw milk. I'm planning on trying raw cultured butter some day, but I'm not hugely optimistic, as none of the pro-dairy claims made here or at other sites have turned out to work for me.
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I took a tablespoon of raw honeycomb and mixed it with 4 raw eggs. Tasted very good.
You didn't spit out the wax, did you? Whenever I ate the honeycomb in the past I never swallowed the wax. I thought that it might impair the digestion.
I always felt that honey fits much better in with the high fat raw meat diet as compared to fruits. Being an inverted sugar, honey does not ferment in the stomach/intestines and is absorbed easily.
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Re: raw comb honey, I recommend getting a free blood glucose test kit and then testing your blood sugars before you eat it and 1 and 2 hours afterwards. I noticed only small negative physical effects from eating raw comb honey, but when I tested my BG I found it spiked it terribly--so I don't recommend that you go by your own perceptions only.
That little glucose machine would tell me nothing about whether it's good for me or not. I'm sure it would say that my blood sugar spiked. But that's why I eat raw honeycomb, to get the pure sugar into my system. If there is no crash afterwards no harm is done. Here's what I mean. Way back when I used to eat a plate of pasta I always felt like I had to take a nap afterwards. I was also gaining weight with pasta/bread in my diet. Fast forward to the fruitarian period when I used to have 15 bananas for breakfast alone and NOT experience a crash afterwards or gain any weight even after months on 2000-3000 kcal of fruit daily. I can tell the pasta was causing harm to my body but the fruit wasn't. I have a magnificent body that has been fine-tuned over millions of years to know what is good for it and what is not. We should not rely on machines to tell us what is right for us. Instinct is king, always has been always will be.
You didn't spit out the wax, did you?
Nope, I crush the honeycomb with a fork, mix it with raw eggs and drink it.
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Update on the raw honeycomb. From tomorrow I'm back to 100% ZC. I noticed today after very intense exercise that I'm way less energetic compared to when I'm 100% ZC. The honeycomb does take away my thirst but I'm not thriving as I did on ZC. I guess I'll just have to keep drinking water like a horse, there's no way around it.
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Update on ZC. I tried raw bone marrow for the first time this week. As soon as it melted in my mouth I just knew this stuff is extremely good for you. I can only eat very small amounts of it, it is that powerful. My thirst has lessened somewhat even though it is warmer outside. It could be that my body was not yet fully adapted to ZC so things are getting better as it is doing so. That or maybe it was detox/healing but I'm not sure. I can't help but notice that my sex-drive is through the roof. Makes the ladies happy for sure. One girls told me how she is eating only fish, fruit and vegetables. I told her yeah that's cool "I eat raw meat only". Instant deer in the headlights look followed by "are you like a vampire or something?". I bite her neck and we make out. I think it turned her on or something. On ZC I feel like James Bond or the guy from the Most Interesting Man In The World commercial. But at the same time I realize that one day I will grow old and die. If only ZC gave us immortality, how cool would that be?
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Oh, I am so glad you love the raw bone marrow! It is my primary source of fat. I really believe it has health properties, and it tastes so great raw!
I have found that even though I drink a lot during the day as I only eat in the evening, I can go for hikes and powerwalks without bringing water with me and I do not lose energy.
My sex drive is crazy, too!
I am really happy that my boyfriend finds my nearly raw ZC-ism to be sexy ;D
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My sex drive is crazy, too!
*high five*
ZCers really do have more fun!
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I read you were eating lots of fruits and lean meat prior to starting this 6-months-zero-carb-experiment.
How did you get off fruits so easily?
I am eating 80/10/10 now but would like to go zero carb too. I already tried several times, but every day I eat raw meat I miss my sweet fruits and I go back to solely fruits. I can't help it. I guess I am a sugar addict.
I was doing cooked paleo before and did good. I went vegan then 811 and now just thinking about eating a lot of fat grosses me out. *shudder*
Do you have any advice for me?
btw, it seems you are doing great so far with your experiment, not only girls wise but also health wise. 2 thumbs up!! Looking forward to read more.
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OT
Hi UB. I wasn't 80-10-10 just before RAF, but I was high carbohydrate vegan for many years. To start, much of what I would eat was raw grass-fed cream that I cultured to facilitate it's digestibility (and lower its carbs). The add a fertile real free range egg yolk to facilitate the fat digestion. Then add unheated unfiltered honey for sweetness and ease digestion of everything and protect from new microbes I was not accustomed to. Then add half of a medium size unripe fruit for fruity flavor that would be extended by the fat and honey. It worked, as I didn't eat fruit any other way for over a year after that. I hope this helps someone like you switching off fruit.
I read you were eating lots of fruits and lean meat prior to starting this 6-months-zero-carb-experiment.
How did you get off fruits so easily?
I am eating 80/10/10 now but would like to go zero carb too. I already tried several times, but every day I eat raw meat I miss my sweet fruits and I go back to solely fruits. I can't help it. I guess I am a sugar addict.
I was doing cooked paleo before and did good. I went vegan then 811 and now just thinking about eating a lot of fat grosses me out. *shudder*
Do you have any advice for me?
btw, it seems you are doing great so far with your experiment, not only girls wise but also health wise. 2 thumbs up!! Looking forward to read more.
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I guess I am a sugar addict. Do you have any advice for me?
You're not a sugar addict, it's how our bodies are programmed to work. If you start your day with fruit your body will stay in sugar burning mode the whole day and you will crave sugar. The trick is to reverse the order and start your day with raw meat or raw eggs and then have fruit later in the day. You will eat much less fruit this way. If you do this for some time you will find yourself not wanting to eat any fruit because it disrupts your zero carb euphoria (read kick-ass energy and mental clarity). It should all happen naturally and not forced. That's how you go from fruit eater to zero carb carnivore. The energy from fruit pales in comparison to the energy you will have from raw animal fat. If someone told me this before the experiment I would not have believed it, but it really is the next level. (Btw it's nothing like nuts or avocado, raw animal fat is a whole different experience)
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Hey actionhero,
I too want to increase my animal fat intake...
I moved to the netherlands about a week ago and I'm wondering where you get your bone marrow and suet (if you eat that?). I assume you only eat grass-fed/wild stuff.
The fattiest animal food I've been eating is Bio+ chicken thighs, but I have a feeling that Bio+ stuff is not that good; fed too much organic grain I reckon, because i seem to itch a lot every day that I eat the chicken.
Have you also got a source for grass-fed/wild organs here in NL? I know there are a few websites for buying grass-fed meat, but the bone marrow, suet and organs etc I think not, or am I wrong?
Cheers
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Bone marrow is sold as 'schenkel' in the boucherie where I get my meat from. I have not started eating organs yet but will in the near future. Here's some folks you might want to contact for your specific needs:
http://www.wildrundvlees.nl/index.php (http://www.wildrundvlees.nl/index.php)
http://www.schotsehooglanders.nl/schotsehooglanders.php (http://www.schotsehooglanders.nl/schotsehooglanders.php)
http://www.natuurslagerijrobrijks.nl/scripts/trade/productindex.php?lang=nl&page=1&advid=4009 (http://www.natuurslagerijrobrijks.nl/scripts/trade/productindex.php?lang=nl&page=1&advid=4009)
http://www.puregrazefoods.nl/voordelen.html (http://www.puregrazefoods.nl/voordelen.html)
http://www.herefords.nl/ (http://www.herefords.nl/)
http://www.veldenbeek.nl/ (http://www.veldenbeek.nl/)
http://www.mastohereford.nl/ (http://www.mastohereford.nl/)
http://www.dekoekoekdrimmelen.nl/vleespakketten.html (http://www.dekoekoekdrimmelen.nl/vleespakketten.html)
http://www.lauwerslandnatuurvlees.nl/ (http://www.lauwerslandnatuurvlees.nl/)
http://www.hoeve-tankinck.nl/hereford-koeien/fotos-van-de-veestapel/ (http://www.hoeve-tankinck.nl/hereford-koeien/fotos-van-de-veestapel/)
http://www.natuurfreak.com/ (http://www.natuurfreak.com/)
http://www.drentsweidevlees.nl/ (http://www.drentsweidevlees.nl/)
http://www.berens-edelvlees.nl/ (http://www.berens-edelvlees.nl/)
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OT
Hi UB. I wasn't 80-10-10 just before RAF, but I was high carbohydrate vegan for many years. To start, much of what I would eat was raw grass-fed cream that I cultured to facilitate it's digestibility (and lower its carbs). The add a fertile real free range egg yolk to facilitate the fat digestion. Then add unheated unfiltered honey for sweetness and ease digestion of everything and protect from new microbes I was not accustomed to. Then add half of a medium size unripe fruit for fruity flavor that would be extended by the fat and honey. It worked, as I didn't eat fruit any other way for over a year after that. I hope this helps someone like you switching off fruit.
Thanks RawZi, unfortunately raw cream is not available where I live, only pasteurized. Therefore, I won't drink/eat it.
Raw honey is no problem. In fact I have some sitting in my cupboard. How much honey do you suggest I take per day?
What is a fertile egg anyway? I read it all the time, but have no clue what that is. How do I know the organic eggs I buy are fertile eggs?
After reading your advice several times I take it that everything you suggest here is mixed/blended together as a drink, is that right? Sounds yummy really, but with no raw cream how would I do that?
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You're not a sugar addict, it's how our bodies are programmed to work. If you start your day with fruit your body will stay in sugar burning mode the whole day and you will crave sugar. The trick is to reverse the order and start your day with raw meat or raw eggs and then have fruit later in the day. You will eat much less fruit this way. If you do this for some time you will find yourself not wanting to eat any fruit because it disrupts your zero carb euphoria (read kick-ass energy and mental clarity). It should all happen naturally and not forced. That's how you go from fruit eater to zero carb carnivore. The energy from fruit pales in comparison to the energy you will have from raw animal fat. If someone told me this before the experiment I would not have believed it, but it really is the next level. (Btw it's nothing like nuts or avocado, raw animal fat is a whole different experience)
actionhero
I already tried reversing and started my days with raw meat. Did very well, even walking around grocery stores smelling all the nice fruits, until approx mid afternoon. Could never hold off any longer and ate some fruits. That didn't go over very well. Every time my digestion is impaired. Don't want to be or sound gross, but a) lots of farting b) it stank to hell and back. For me, eating fruits only on empty stomach. Everything else is not working.
But maybe I can switch to eating raw honey after the meat instead of eating fruits. Haven't dried that. What do you reckon? I also thought about making pemmican.
Have a great weekend
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But maybe I can switch to eating raw honey after the meat instead of eating fruits. Haven't tried that. What do you reckon?
Yes, a little raw honey is better than a meal of fruit. From my experience raw honey & honeycomb will not affect the almost complete digestion and absorption of nutrients from raw meat & fat, but fruit will. It's an excellent sugar source that will do all the right things without the negatives of fruit fiber & acids. Let us know how you do.
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so actionhero, whats your perfect diet day-to-day so far?
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almost complete digestion and absorption of nutrients from raw meat & fat
So because you think this is happening to you you think it is what happens to everybody? Other people on ZC have posted about chunks of undigested fat in stools etc...
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so actionhero, whats your perfect diet day-to-day so far?
There's no such thing as perfect diet, it changes as the body extracts specific nutrients for specific needs. But right now I drink less raw eggs (6-8) and eat more lean meat. Bone marrow I eat twice a week, it's too potent to eat it daily right now. Very fatty ground beef is also often on the menu. Things to try in the near future are brain, liver, fresh blood and high meat.
So because you think this is happening to you you think it is what happens to everybody? Other people on ZC have posted about chunks of undigested fat in stools etc...
That's their problem, I can only report what I'm going through and noticing on ZC.
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Bone marrow is sold as 'schenkel' in the boucherie where I get my meat from. I have not started eating organs yet but will in the near future. Here's some folks you might want to contact for your specific needs:
http://www.wildrundvlees.nl/index.php (http://www.wildrundvlees.nl/index.php)
http://www.schotsehooglanders.nl/schotsehooglanders.php (http://www.schotsehooglanders.nl/schotsehooglanders.php)
http://www.natuurslagerijrobrijks.nl/scripts/trade/productindex.php?lang=nl&page=1&advid=4009 (http://www.natuurslagerijrobrijks.nl/scripts/trade/productindex.php?lang=nl&page=1&advid=4009)
http://www.puregrazefoods.nl/voordelen.html (http://www.puregrazefoods.nl/voordelen.html)
http://www.herefords.nl/ (http://www.herefords.nl/)
http://www.veldenbeek.nl/ (http://www.veldenbeek.nl/)
http://www.mastohereford.nl/ (http://www.mastohereford.nl/)
http://www.dekoekoekdrimmelen.nl/vleespakketten.html (http://www.dekoekoekdrimmelen.nl/vleespakketten.html)
http://www.lauwerslandnatuurvlees.nl/ (http://www.lauwerslandnatuurvlees.nl/)
http://www.hoeve-tankinck.nl/hereford-koeien/fotos-van-de-veestapel/ (http://www.hoeve-tankinck.nl/hereford-koeien/fotos-van-de-veestapel/)
http://www.natuurfreak.com/ (http://www.natuurfreak.com/)
http://www.drentsweidevlees.nl/ (http://www.drentsweidevlees.nl/)
http://www.berens-edelvlees.nl/ (http://www.berens-edelvlees.nl/)
Cheers for those, they'll come in very handy.
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Yes, a little raw honey is better than a meal of fruit. From my experience raw honey & honeycomb will not affect the almost complete digestion and absorption of nutrients from raw meat & fat, but fruit will. It's an excellent sugar source that will do all the right things without the negatives of fruit fiber & acids. Let us know how you do.
thanks mate, I'll give it a try and let you know. I'll keep watching here... :-)
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Some new things I tried in the last 10 days:
- 1 kg raw lamb, loved the fat, kind of neutral about the taste of meat
- 750 gr raw chicken breast, liked it a lot
- 500 gr chicken hearts, was fine nothing special
- 400 gr tuna, wow great stuff just melts in your mouth
- had ground beef with raw honey and loved it
- stopped drinking eggs daily, no negative symptoms btw
- developed huge appetite to experiment eating other animals including organs
- beef is still numero uno, I love the stuff
to try in near future:
- beef liver/heart
- lamb heart
- high meat, I so want some
- rabbit meat/organs inc brain
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I agree that tuna is delicious!I eat it almost every day, but it's so damn expensive!
Btw I have a question...what do you call suet in Dutch? Is it just "vet". I want to ask the local butcher to order me some, because the meat I buy from him, which is wild, has no fat on it whatsoever. Would I say something like: Ik wil graag veel vet met mijn vlees. Or something along those lines?
Thanks
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what do you call suet in Dutch? Is it just "vet".
Niervet
Would I say something like: Ik wil graag veel vet met mijn vlees.
Yes, that's the way to ask for it.
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I can't help but notice that my sex-drive is through the roof.
Funny how there are contrasting results with people.
I was at my horniest ever when I was eating like 60% starches super-high calorie diet. I was a walking hardon then.
ZC is so logical and so alluring but sadly it doesn't work for everyone.
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ZC is so logical and so alluring but sadly it doesn't work for everyone.
I'm fully convinced that anybody with a healthy body will thrive on ZC immediately, like within days of starting it. People who don't do well on ZC are either sugar addicts who need to feed their candida or they have irreversible permanent damage caused by sugar/starch abuse. A healthy body thrives on ZC. If you don't feel zero carb euphoria within 1-2 weeks you are probably not as healthy as you thought. The thing with ZC is that it doesn't mask your true condition. Your state of health will be fully exposed. If you start eating fat like a mad man you are just trying to numb yourself further. That explains people getting fat and chubby on ZC. A healthy body can produce insane amounts of energy from just a bit of fat. There's no need to stuff yourself with it. It really is like nuclear energy.
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Today I had some semi-high meat, it's only 2 weeks old.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/sonickaos/untitled2.jpg)
My first real high meat experiment. I will start eating it one month in.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n213/sonickaos/untitled1.jpg)
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Actionhero: can you describe in detail what you eat at this point? Because some people(like on the other ZC website forum) include dairy and sometimes use coffee or alcohol and stuff like that.
I'd like to see if you eat any plant material at all.Like coconut oil?
So far I know you eat meat,some seafood,and honey.Anything else? Spices?herbs(parsley)?salt?
Let me know,thanks.
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Raw meat (beef\chicken\lamb), raw eggs, raw ground beef, marrow, organs. Seafood almost never really. Raw Honey only once every 2-3 weeks. Nothing whatsoever from plants, no spices, herbs or salt. Zero nada. Alcohol, coffee, thee, come on are you kidding me?
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Thanks,yeah, if you know the website I'm talking about,check out their recipe section ;D (it seems they are more interested in weight loss than health.Which is why I like this forum better).
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I'm fully convinced that anybody with a healthy body will thrive on ZC immediately, like within days of starting it. People who don't do well on ZC are either sugar addicts who need to feed their candida or they have irreversible permanent damage caused by sugar/starch abuse. A healthy body thrives on ZC. If you don't feel zero carb euphoria within 1-2 weeks you are probably not as healthy as you thought. The thing with ZC is that it doesn't mask your true condition. Your state of health will be fully exposed. If you start eating fat like a mad man you are just trying to numb yourself further. That explains people getting fat and chubby on ZC. A healthy body can produce insane amounts of energy from just a bit of fat. There's no need to stuff yourself with it. It really is like nuclear energy.
Oh my not-god, I could NOT agree with this more. Zero Carb is a way all humans can thrive. I felt fantastic as soon as I went ZC, and now 1 year and 4 months later of pure ZC (NEVER EVER EVER eating off plan), my body is amazing and my mind is free!
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Thanks,yeah, if you know the website I'm talking about,check out their recipe section ;D (it seems they are more interested in weight loss than health.Which is why I like this forum better).
Which website? I know a zero carb forum where they seem more interested in weight-loss than general health, but just to confirm..? The one I'm thinking of doesn't differentiate between raw/cooked, and doesn't have a section titled 'recipes', however..
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Miles: Yeah,sorry about that.Let me clarify:The recipes are in individual threads.Look in the "dairy" section and click on "ice cream" or "egg nog" you will see recipes with stuff like coffee...etc... Then go to "meat" and look for the "100 hamburger recipes" and you will see BBQ sauce etc.... :)
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Heh... Yeah it's the same site. Are you a member there?
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nah,I lost interest when I read all the stuff they were eating.Also,some of the pics of the members don't look any healthier than some people on SAD diets. ;D
p.s. I feel bad about hijacking Actionhero's journal.So I'll try to post stuff here related to Actionhero's experiment from now on.
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Zero Carb is a way all humans can thrive.
Katelyn, how about those who have low levels of cortisol?
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I don't really visit other zero carb forums. You are right most don't look healthy. They eat cooked meat, dairy, low carb imitation food, etc, knowing it is not as optimal as 100% raw paleo which tells me they are not serious about true health and well-being, just short term results in the mirror.
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Katelyn, how about those who have low levels of cortisol?
To find out your correct cortisol levels would involve a serious amount of testing.
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UPDATE: I thought the airtight jar would prevent the strong smell of high meat but it doesn't completely and I can notice it. So now I'm keeping it in a sealed bag on the balcony instead of my fridge. I'm airing it once a day and it's getting slimy fast. I know Aajonus keeps some of his high meat outside the fridge but his tolerance to bacteria must be through the roof from years of exposure to it. I might get really sick from the stuff. I'll see what happens to the meat and if I feel like eating it. Btw, can you die from it?
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I heard that if a significant number of certain bacteria gets past the stomach and into the intestines, they can get to the adjoining organs and cause damage/failure, but I don't know.
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UPDATE: I thought the airtight jar would prevent the strong smell of high meat but it doesn't completely and I can notice it. So now I'm keeping it in a sealed bag on the balcony instead of my fridge. I'm airing it once a day and it's getting slimy fast. I know Aajonus keeps some of his high meat outside the fridge but his tolerance to bacteria must be through the roof from years of exposure to it. I might get really sick from the stuff. I'll see what happens to the meat and if I feel like eating it. Btw, can you die from it?
Just air it out regularly, preferably more than 1x a day and you'll be fine. I ate a 3 month slime sludge meat for the first time and I felt fine. It does tasty rather nasty. Kinda like old cheese.
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I heard that if a significant number of certain bacteria gets past the stomach and into the intestines, they can get to the adjoining organs and cause damage/failure, but I don't know.
Someone sent me a pm a couple days ago telling me he got really sick from AV style high meat. But it's not a regular poster so I don't know if he was telling the truth or not.
Just air it out regularly, preferably more than 1x a day and you'll be fine. I ate a 3 month slime sludge meat for the first time and I felt fine. It does tasty rather nasty. Kinda like old cheese.
Cool. Just the penetrating smell alone gets me super excited. We'll see what happens.
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Someone sent me a pm a couple days ago telling me he got really sick from AV style high meat. But it's not a regular poster so I don't know if he was telling the truth or not.
Cool. Just the penetrating smell alone gets me super excited. We'll see what happens.
He sent me that shit aswell. Probably some vegan
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ah, I've been getting the same messages from probably the same concerned citizen for months now. Judging by our back and forth he has no experience with high-meat I can tell you that. As a precaution, It might be good to stick with the standard protocol though. It might not be perfect, but at least you have some common ground to troubleshoot from. Honestly I wouldn't in any circumstance keep high meat in plastic (if I am interpreting correctly) and would at least experiment with refrigeration before I messed around with sun and heat exposure. I've left meats in plastic for many days past expiration and do not believe these to be healthy, whereas my 4 month old sludge (in glass/refrigerated) has caused no ill symptoms. I did have some intense reactions around the first times of trying high-meat, which I reported and think brought the concerned citizen to my life. I never even figured out 100% if it was the culprit. Either way, if it gets enough healthy oxygen, I wouldn't worry about it being fatal, although perhaps one cannot label it 100% safe?
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No, it's still in a jar. It's just that I put it inside a bag to prevent flies around it. Now that I think of it I could put another bag around it and just keep it in the fridge. That way I can control the bacteria and prevent it from transforming that fast. I think one day outside the fridge equals a week inside so I'm at around 3 weeks now. I'll let it sit for one more week more before I try it.
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Any update?