Author Topic: Pemmican  (Read 41836 times)

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Offline prehistorik

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2009, 05:34:46 pm »
What do the "cracklings" consist of?  Why eat them as a separate snack?  Can you not grind them and mix them with the dried meat powder for the pemmican? 

I made a small amount of pemmican using lard, as I had no suet available at the moment, and the cracklings taste disgusting (have not tried the pemmican yet).  I wonder if the suet cracklings are any better.
I noticed something while eating a tender juicy steak the other day.  That sometimes, just sometimes, if you chew slowly and thoughtfully enough, you can almost taste the cow's soul.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2009, 11:28:50 pm »
What do the "cracklings" consist of?  Why eat them as a separate snack?  Can you not grind them and mix them with the dried meat powder for the pemmican? 

Cracklings are the brown pieces of fat tissue after the liquid fat has been released from them.  Bacon that has been fried "crisp" is a form of cracklings.

I've never added the cracklings to my pemmican, and have always eaten them separately with a little salt.  Haven't eaten them for a while since I went mostly raw, but used to love them.

Pork fat doesn't seem to work as well as beef or bison fat for making pemmican, but can be used I suppose.  It is very soft and pasty, it doesn't store as well, and the fatty acid profile is significantly different from red meat fat which might affect its overall nutritional value if the pemmican were to be used as your sole food for an extended period of time.

Lex

Offline wodgina

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2009, 07:44:54 pm »
 Well I made 2 kg of pemmican on the weekend, it went well, I already had 1kg of kangaroo jerky (kangaroo is great because it's lean, cheap and is tasty) It took me about 6 hours to render the 1kg of suet at 212F. It was a bit of fun but took a while and I made mess in fact I still have to clean up when I get back from my trip away. I planned to only eat pemmican on the trip but still had some meat mix which I took with me.
Had my first actual meal of only pemmican yesterday and went down ok. I ate alot probably more than if I ate meat mix in terms of calories. It was tasty but crumbled to bits. Thanks lex for the jerky maker and pemmican intructions.

I will be making many more batches in the future and has allowed me to go camping and plan trips to remote areas that are just not possible raw paleo.
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William

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2009, 05:30:40 am »
delfuego has found a way to render fat at <104°F.
Posted in the pemmican thread here:
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=81&page=44

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2009, 12:43:15 pm »
delfuego has found a way to render fat at <104°F.

William,
Delfuego and I have corresponded on this topic and I've been following the thread closely.  His oven temperature is actually slightly above 104°F and he's measuring the internal temperature of the fat with a meat thermometer.  The the moisture doesn't boil off at such a low temperature so he has to remove the majority of it manually.  It is not clear that enough moisture is removed from the liquid fat to allow for the exceptional room temperature keeping qualities that pemmican is famous for.  If you are going to eat it right away then this may not be a problem, however, if you are looking for emergency rations that can be stored for long periods without refrigeration or freezing, then the point is critical.  An everyday example of this is butter.  It is mostly fat, but contains substantial water which over time causes the butter to go rancid and it must be kept refrigerated.  To keep butter for long periods unrefrigerated, you must melt the butter and boil off the water and remove the milk solids (small amounts of protein and lactose).  This has been done in the Middle Eastern countries for centruies and the end result is called Ghee.  Like rendered animial fat it can be kept for long periods and requires no refrigeration.

The yield is not clear.  Rendering fat above 200°F provides about 7 lbs of rendered fat for every 10 lbs of raw fat.  At very low temperatures much of the fat may remain trapped in the cellular structure and the yield may only be 1/2 or 1/3 of normal.  The saturated fat requires a temperature above 120°F to melt so this may not be released at all, thus altering the fatty acid profile of the completed pemmican.  In other words it may be nutritionally deficient and not provide everything needed for a human to remain healthy.

The process takes many hours, (days actually), and though you don't have to watch it closely, you do have to skim the water off once or twice a day.  The temperature is also perfect for culturing bacteria and mold.  Unlike jerky where the moisture is driven off and the material becomes drier inhibiting the growth of critters, the fat actually traps nutrient rich water under it, and then keeps it nice and toasty for the critters to grow and multiply.  In effect he's created a very nice incubator in his kitchen.

Delfuego hopes to keep the enzymes intact by keeping the temperature low.  I have no idea if this is good or bad.  Part of pemmican's amazing keeping qualities may rely on the destruction of the enzymes in the fat during the rendering process - we just do not know.  Again, this may be a critical factor if pemmican is to be used as an emergency food.  The problem is, we have no way of measuring the presence of enzymes so there is no way to know if the goal has been accomplished or even if there are significant enzymes to save in the first place.

 Delfuego's "new" method introduces no fundamental change in process or technology.  The process is exactly the same one that's been used for hundreds of years, with the single exception of lowering the fat rendering temperature.  Unlike freeze drying which is very high tech and only been available in the last 50 to 75 years, just lowering the heat to render fat would have been available to the North American Natives who invented this stuff in the first place.  From what research I've done, a heat level above the boiling point of water was always used.  If the higher rendering temperature did not provide some advantage, then why didn't the process evolve to a low temperature model over the centuries?  There must be a good reason, as lower temperatures take far less fuel and attention to maintain than higher temperatures.   

Traditional pemmican has stood the test of time over many many centuries.  I'm hopeful that Delfuego achieves what he's after, however, right now there are many unanswered questions.

Lex
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 12:58:52 pm by lex_rooker »

William

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2009, 01:56:23 pm »
Lex,
I agree with everything you wrote.
I hope the experiment gives useful results without harm.

Just a thought - life, including enzyme function, is electrical:
Without water, dried meat has less electrical activity, and the enzymes might go dormant, so it keeps well for a while even without fat.
Fat is a good insulator - note the composition of myelin sheath which insulates nerves including brain tissue - so enzyme activity in or from rendered fat (if any) is problematical.
It might even make no difference at what temperature the fat is rendered.

Puzzling is delfuego's removing water from the top. Fat floats, so why is the water on top?

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2009, 11:55:07 pm »

Puzzling is delfuego's removing water from the top. Fat floats, so why is the water on top?


Yes, water is denser than fat in the liquid state.  If his fat is still solid at this lower temp, I still can't see how the water would rise to the top of the fat, as it is liquid water, right?  Makes no sense to me, but then, I am not on the other forum, and maybe he has some different thing going on.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2009, 01:32:31 am »
Puzzling is delfuego's removing water from the top. Fat floats, so why is the water on top?

One should never let something as inconsequential as a simple law of physics get in the way of one's zealous pursuit of the Holy Grail.

If you'll notice, most of Delfuego's posts are quite short.  I don't think he worries about absolute accuracy or clarity - rather just communicating the basic idea.  He has been asked several times to give detailed instructions on how he makes his pemmican.  I have yet to find a detailed post in this regard - just bits and pieces spread across many posts, and certainly nothing of clarity.

I expect we'll learn more as time goes on.  In the mean time, I'll continue to make my pemmican the tried and true old fashioned way.

Lex

Offline wodgina

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2009, 09:42:21 am »
I think pemmican seems a little more culturally acceptable because I can buy beef jerky down at my local 24 hour BP service station. It tastes like cooked food and I realise the power of the mind in feeling well and maybe this can explain 'Delfuego's' wife's recovery.



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Satya

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2009, 04:05:10 am »
I like the flat cakes best.  The surface area allows for easy breaking.  Just a thought as people make pemmican, they may want to consider the shape they wish, depending on their circumstances and other preferences.


Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2009, 04:50:57 am »
Dear god, pemmican looks like some disgusting version of spam.
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Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2009, 05:55:19 am »
Dear god, pemmican looks like some disgusting version of spam.

And it tastes like candle wax and sawdust.....Yum!   Life just doesn't get any better than this!

Lex

Satya

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2009, 07:25:54 am »
And it tastes like candle wax and sawdust.....Yum!   Life just doesn't get any better than this!

ROFLMAO!  I have never eaten candle wax, but it does have a waxy mouth feel.  Then again, so do some chocolates.  The meat tastes like unseasoned jerky to me.  I do sheepishly admit to adding seasoning to your pemmican, Lex, but that's just because it is where I am at with things.  My kids love it, if that counts for anything.

I think it's a good introductory raw food for people.  Only half raw, but still.  Rawpaleo.com should post the manual, imo, if only for the fact that it will bring inquiring minds.  The fact that it's now linked on Charles' increasingly, very popular forum, means that the traditionaltx.us site will be getting increased traffic.  These zero carb types would be perfect to hear a raw message.  I do hope the rawpaleodiet.com site can benefit from this sort of exposure, as I am only a local site for Texans, basically.  In any case, I do agree that it is more mainstream than other raf.

Offline primaD

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2009, 03:36:32 pm »
I am so new to pemmican but I was wondering couldn't one just use this method to make pemmican:
Quote
Traditionally pemmican was prepared from the lean meat of large game such as buffalo, elk or deer. The meat was cut in thin slices and dried over a slow fire, or in the hot sun until it was hard and brittle. Then it was pounded into very small pieces, almost powder-like in consistency, using stones. The pounded meat was mixed with melted fat with a ratio of approximately 50% pounded meat and 50% melted fat. In some cases, dried fruits such as saskatoon berries, cranberries, blueberries, or choke cherries were pounded into powder and then added to the meat/fat mixture. The resulting mixture was then packed into "green" rawhide pouches for storage.
I found this on wikipedia but it seems simple and it lists this method as the traditional method so...  I guess you can melt the fat in the sun also.  I just really dislike having to use machines.  I like them to be an option not the only way.

William

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2009, 12:27:46 am »
I am so new to pemmican but I was wondering couldn't one just use this method to make pemmican: I found this on wikipedia but it seems simple and it lists this method as the traditional method so...  I guess you can melt the fat in the sun also.  I just really dislike having to use machines.  I like them to be an option not the only way.

Wikipedia is corrupt.

For instance, I read the source article which was about the Hudon's Bay Co. buying pemmican from Indians at Rocky Mountain House, IIRC that was in what is now Alberta, where the temperature never got over 100°F, but the climate is relatively dry and windy, so the meat would dry just as it does in Lex Rooker's jerky box.
No fire!

And also, fat does not melt in the sun. It is rendered, and fire is necessary because the heat must be high enough to drive off the water; otherwise the pemmican goes moldy.
I bake in a 225 oven for >=8 hours.

Lex's pemmican manifesto is the best source for making it, except I think he tolerates too high a temperature.
I think that temperatures over 104°F are not good, so I use a 60W bulb instead of 100W, and have seen the temp. vary from 82°F to 102°F.
This on my kitchen floor, which is cool.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2009, 12:39:38 am »
I'm getting mine down to a fine art and have experimented with 60-100w globes as well as covering the air hole at the top. I need a high temp (approaching 40 Celsius) because I found you really need to get a good bit of drying quick or it will go off (and cutting the jerky fine takes a lot of time)


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Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2009, 04:28:31 am »
Lex's pemmican manifesto is the best source for making it, except I think he tolerates too high a temperature.

To high a temperature for what - rendering the fat or drying the meat or both?

One thing to remember when drying the meat is that you will have significant evaporative cooling - especially for the first 24 hours.  This drops what would be a temperature of 115 deg into the high 80s or low 90s.  As the meat dries the temperature will slowly rise util it reaches its highest temperature at the end of the cycle and all the moisture is gone.

Lex   

William

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2009, 07:24:26 am »
To high a temperature for what - rendering the fat or drying the meat or both?

One thing to remember when drying the meat is that you will have significant evaporative cooling - especially for the first 24 hours.  This drops what would be a temperature of 115 deg into the high 80s or low 90s.  As the meat dries the temperature will slowly rise until it reaches its highest temperature at the end of the cycle and all the moisture is gone.

Lex   

Just the meat - I've read somewhere that enzyme destruction begins at temps over 104, this supported by the stories of people who have fever, and doctors do extremes to keep temps below that.
Most might not notice, but those of us who require healing could.

I don't care how long the meat takes to dry, and don't mind at if it smells a bit high during the drying - can't taste any difference in the pemmican anyway.

Andrew, do you live in a high humidity area? I've read that if so, there should be a temperature difference of 5° (I don't know if this is C or F) to make drying possible, and maybe some wind as well.
I might experiment with the wind, as I have a fan intended for a computer power supply.

Offline yon yonson

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2009, 02:40:17 am »
my butcher accidentally gave me some grainfed suet. i dont want to eat it raw, but was wondering if i should render it for pemmican. is this even worth it? is rendered grass fed fat much better than rendered grain fed fat or does the heating destroy the nutrients that are in the grass fed fat. im just trying to figure out what i should do with the grainfed suet. any other ideas?

Offline Michael

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2009, 05:24:51 am »
I'd suggest feeding it to your pets or simply disposing of it Yon. 

The critical difference between the grass-fed and grain-fed fats, as far as I'm aware, is the Omega 3 / Omega 6 ratio.  This ratio itself isn't affected by the rendering process but the fats are, of course, damaged.  Personally, I'm not keen to eat any heated fragile Omega fats but if I did I would certainly ensure that, at least, the 3-6 ratio was the preferred 4:1 or closer of grass-fed animals.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2009, 08:29:46 pm »
Well, either throw it away or render it and supplement with some raw, fermented cod liver oil(Blue Ice has such a product).
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Offline yon yonson

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2009, 08:29:48 pm »
hey so im planning on traveling with some pemmican pretty soon. i was curious, how do you transport it by plane? is it cool to keep it in my carry-on bag or would i have to check it? just wondering if they'd let me carry it on... any suggestions or experience?

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2009, 09:03:28 pm »
I just travelled with some a couple days ago in my carry-on and it went through unquestioned.  However, I travelled from a very small airport that is sometimes more lenient.  I had the pemmican sort of flat in a ziplock bag and I was prepared to say that it was a fruit roll up or cereal bar, but I never had to say anything. Good luck!

Offline wodgina

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2009, 10:44:48 pm »
My brother recently took 5kg of pemmican/hashish on a plane, when he tried to board they told him there was a security problem with his bag and to stand aside. He went down to security and they told him no problem he could board. After the short flight and on coming into landing at the (very small) airport the place was full of police. Nothing happened but he thinks his suspicously wrapped pemmican may have got some attention.
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Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #74 on: May 25, 2009, 01:41:46 am »
I took some and also jerky to St. Kitts and didn't have any problems.

 

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