Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: aLptHW4k4y on September 02, 2012, 05:10:25 pm
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On a German website I read that all honey is cold extracted (at least in Germany, for the past 100 years), at 37C which is enough to losen up the wax, and that "raw honey" is just dishonest marketing strategy from bee keepers. Couldn't find more info, anyone knows more?
http://www.imker-badschwalbach.de/kaltgeschleudert.html (http://www.imker-badschwalbach.de/kaltgeschleudert.html)
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37 C is just a hot mid summer day in my country.
So the temperature is not an issue.
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Yes the temperature is perfectly fine, I'm just wondering if I should bother at all looking for specifically raw honey, if all of them are same in terms of "rawness", as the site above claims.
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They are not all the same, that's a gross generalization. The state of food tends to be better in europe than here in the US, but I guarantee there are industrialized products there that are heated over 120F which is extremely damaging to the food. It is worth the effort to buy whole comb straight from the farmer, because honey is an extremely fragile food that is damaged at even 94F. Even whackipedia claims that over 200 compounds are lost at the very low temp of 104F. Do you trust industry to treat your food gently when they have schedules and standardization to maintain? I understand whole comb isn't easy for everyone to get, but the more your request it, the easier it will be for the market to meet demand. The problem is that a lot of people are using different hive setups these days that don't allow for easy extraction of the whole comb, but the more we request it the sooner producers will take a hint. Honey is fragile, needs to be treated extremely gently for max benefit.
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aLptHW4k4y, instead of going by someone's opinion, why don't you try one of the highly recommended raw honeys available to you and then compare to a heated supermarket brand and see if you notice any differences in taste and effects on you? For me, I especially notice the differences in health effects around 1 hour after eating and upon waking the next morning.
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Ok thanks for responses! I'm not sure I can find the highly recommended raw honeys around here, so that's why I was wondering about this.
I've bought one type of raw honey (specifically said kaltgeschleudert) before, didn't like it much.
It's not just anyone's opinion btw, it's written by an association of bee keepers in Germany.
I wanted to try fermented honey, but haven't had luck finding any so far. There is honey wine here, which I suppose is mead(?) and is quite good but I'm not very interested in alcohol.
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Pardon my German, but the article on the link you provided makes the distinction that honey was extracted by boiling in the olden days, and that nowadays a centrifuge has replaced boiling. I do not read explicitly that German honey is not subjected to "flow" warming, as it was described in the Rawesome video. So, my take on the German beekeepers' claim is that they are saying, "Our honey we do not boil."
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I removed my post that had the Rawesome video that Eveheart referred to because I figured I should read the German post before commenting. Eveheart appears to be correct, if the Google translator is sufficiently accurate. The German post essentially appears to be saying that no honey in Germany is boiled, nor are the extractors heated. This is possible, but as Eveheart pointed out, it doesn't necessarily guarantee that there is no difference in the temperatures the honeys are subjected to. I investigated it some more, as it's a question I investigated in the past without a complete resolution, including on an American beekeeper forum, so I was interested to see if there is any more info available.
FWIW, here's the video interview of James Stewart of Rawesome Foods (who's currently in jail for selling unpasteurized milk and allegedly violating his bail restrictions, and Aajonus apparently claimed that Stewart and/or Sharon Palmer lied about the quality of the foods sold at Rawesome, if these things matter to anyone, and which has been debated in other threads and which I don't want to get into here, though it doesn't necessarily mean what he says here is wrong, and this video appears to mostly jibe with what Aajonus and some other rawists claim): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOVDFtvH0Bg# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOVDFtvH0Bg#)
I looked around a bit and found this:
"To have any meaning, statements about heating should therefore contain a temperature that the honey is heated to, the length of time held at that temperature, and whether it is cooled quickly or allowed to cool naturally (which may take hours or even days depending on the size and thermal properties of the container(s)). Quality claims such as "unheated" or "raw" honey that have no qualifying time or temperature, may be quite misleading. E.g. poor storage of bulk honeys, or a long shelf time of slow moving retail lines in a warm climate, will produce changes many times greater than the brief periods of accurately controlled heating during processing." http://www.airborne.co.nz/processing.shtml (http://www.airborne.co.nz/processing.shtml)
So unless you check the hives yourself or feel you can trust a certain beekeeper or authority, like Aajonus, say, there's no way to know with confidence that a certain honey is not heated above the 95 F standard of James Stewart or the 92 F standard that RawZi said Aajonus recommends. Notice that they don't claim that "raw" means zero heat--just below a certain level. Aajonus reportedly believes that 92 F is the max temp that honey is subjected to in a healthy hive. 37 C is only 98.6 F, which is not that much higher than their standards and probably much lower than the temps that most supermarket honeys sold in America are heated to.
In my case, partly because it's impossible to know how much every honey is heated, I didn't rely on the opinions of anyone, including the top alleged authorities like beekeeper assocations and beekeepers (and I was astounded by the level of ignorance I found at an American beekeeper forum) or Aajonus or anyone else, but instead tested various honeys that were recommended as the best here and elsewhere and that were sold at local supermarkets, healthfood markets, a farmers market, a Vitamin Shoppe store and via the Internet or telephone order. I tried all sorts of honeys, including some honeycomb versions, some that contain royal jelly, etc. and I found only one that produced any noticeable health benefits for me (like elimination of dandruff and dry skin, hair improvements to the point where I don't need to wash it if I've been eating the honey, improved carb tolerance, and it looks like maybe some improvements in fasting and post-prandial blood glucose)--the Really Raw brand "raw" fermented honey, which happens to be a brand that was certified raw by Aajonus. It's also my favorite-tasting honey. The differences are huge and unmistakeable, so for me it's a no-brainer at this point, though I continue to try other honeys that seem worth at least a try, just in case there's another super one I missed. I tried a lot of honeys before I tried the Really Raw fermented honey, so if I had stopped after trying just one allegedly "raw" honey or even a dozen or more, I wouldn't have found the one that appears to suit me pretty well (though not without also some negative effects if I consume too much).
So that's what I recommend to anyone seeking the very best honey--become a honey connoisseur. Try the alleged "best" honeys that you have access to, whatever they are, and note for yourself the taste and any noticeable effects. For me, the effects (both negative and positive) were particularly noticeable around an hour or so after eating and upon waking the next morning, but for you, it might be different. Maybe you won't find any honey that you like or benefit from. The only real way to find out is to try some others.
Based on the testimonials I saw from a broad range of people at different sites on the Internet, plus observations of hunter-gatherers who eat honey hive contents, plus a plethora of studies finding numerous benefits from honey, plus folk-medicine reports, etc., and my own hunch, I had a feeling that I would eventually find a honey that at least wouldn't produce seriously negative effects on me at low intakes, like supermarket honeys do, as an occasional treat and sugar substitute, and I was quite pleased to find a honey that actually produces some benefits for me.
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FWIW, here's the video interview of James Stewart of Rawesome Foods (who's currently in jail for selling unpasteurized milk and allegedly violating his bail restrictions, and Aajonus apparently claimed that Stewart and/or Sharon Palmer lied about the quality of the foods sold at Rawesome, if these things matter to anyone, and which has been debated in other threads and which I don't want to get into here, though it doesn't necessarily mean what he says here is wrong, and this video appears to mostly jibe with what Aajonus and some other rawists claim)
Aajonus reportedly believes that 92 F is the max temp that honey is subjected to in a healthy hive.
First of all. LOL. That was funny Phil! Point taken, no delving in to that hornet's nest!
Second, I'll retract the 94F I said above then because I was basing that on what I thought Aaj claimed elsewhere, and in his second book that I have he says not above 93F for honey, so I'm guessing he's been revising that figure as he learns more about it. 92F seems amazingly low, and I'm absolutely sure that many if not most hives get above that temp at some point in their lives, it was 94F here today for example and our hives are in the sun, doubtful that it's any cooler in there than it is outside since they are under direct exposure and are basically just boxes. The only thing they have going for them to stay cool is the fanning of the bees (if that doesn't actually generate heat!!) and that they are painted light colors so they reflect IR instead of absorbing it.
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First of all. LOL. That was funny Phil! Point taken, no delving in to that hornet's nest!
LOL, you got that right, brother--I don't want to get into that hornet's nest! Ouchy! ;D
Second, I'll retract the 94F I said above then because I was basing that on what I thought Aaj claimed elsewhere, and in his second book that I have he says not above 93F for honey, so I'm guessing he's been revising that figure as he learns more about it. 92F seems amazingly low, and I'm absolutely sure that many if not most hives get above that temp at some point in their lives....
I'm generally not a stickler for details...more of a big picture fellow...but since you brought it up, I checked my copy of Recipe for Living, and sure enough, AV says 93F there, so I stand corrected. Therefore, 92F is crazy and 93F is A-OK. LOL
FWIW, in my own experience, whether the honey is heated to 92, 93, 94, 95 or 98.6 degrees seems to be less important than the fermenting of it, as only fermented honey has provided me with any actual benefits. Go figure. YMMV and all that jazz.
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Wow, 93F (33C), so no honey is raw according to Aajonus in my area, where regular summer day can get to 45C and bee boxes are just out there on the sun? :)
I just bought some raw honey, it says to keep it at below 20C and out of light to preserve its beneficial ingredients.
My stomach is hurting from one tablespoon, much like when you eat raw garlic, is this something typical? I can't imagine eating a lot of this stuff.. maybe I'm allergic to honey.
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There are many sources of honey. Maybe this one just does not agree with you. Buy from various sources.
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I've had stomach ache with most honeys as far as I remember, but maybe I just haven't found the one for me yet :) This one is heather honey.
One hour later the stomach pain is gone and I feel like very slightly drunk and happy hah. Interesting stuff.
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Wow, 93F (33C), so no honey is raw according to Aajonus in my area, where regular summer day can get to 45C and bee boxes are just out there on the sun? :)
The internal hive temperature is not necessarily the same as the external temperature:
Honey bee workers keep the hive temperature uniform in the critical brood area (where new bees are raised). Workers must maintain the hive's brood chamber at 34.4 °C to incubate the eggs. If it is too hot, they collect water and deposit it around the hive, then fan air through with their wings causing cooling by evaporation. If it is too cold, they cluster together to generate body heat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_bee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_bee)
The worker bee thermostatically controls his hive with great precision, ensuring that the temperature in the hive's nursery, where baby bees are developing, is maintained at 93 degrees Fahrenheit, and that the temperature in the remainder of the hive does not drop below 45 degrees Fahrenheit. The worker bees accomplish this winter task by fueling up on the honey that they have stored, and by releasing heat as they feast.http://www.coolquiz.com/trivia/explain/docs/bees.asp (http://www.coolquiz.com/trivia/explain/docs/bees.asp)
The entire brood nest, including all the areas of comb containing brood, is generally ellipsoidal or spherical so that it is readily surrounded by the cluster of adult bees in cool weather. The bees form such a cluster when the temperature drops to about 57 degrees F. (14 degrees C.). The area containing developing bees, but not the rest of the hive, is kept at a temperature of about 95degrees F. (35 degrees C.). The worker bees warm the brood nest to this temperature by moving their bodies and fanning their wings, activities that require honey as "fuel." In hot weather the bees cool the nest to 95 degrees F. (35 degrees C.) by fanning to evaporate dilute nectar or water present in the brood nest. http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/html_pubs/BEEKEEP/CHAPT1/chap1.html (http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/html_pubs/BEEKEEP/CHAPT1/chap1.html)
So there appears to be general consensus on the max internal temperature of a healthy hive (too hot and they either have to find a cooler hive location or die), with slight differences in opinion on the precise maximum, ranging from 93-95 degrees.
I just bought some raw honey, it says to keep it at below 20C and out of light to preserve its beneficial ingredients.
This one is heather honey.
One hour later the stomach pain is gone and I feel like very slightly drunk and happy hah. Interesting stuff.
What brands or beekeepers?
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Wow that's just amazing how they manage to regulate the temperature.
I think it's kinda artificial that the bee boxes are just like that on the sun (from what I've seen), because naturally beehives are on trees, under shadow.
The honey I got is "Dreyer Deutscher Imkerhonig", similar to this (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Dreyer-Honig-Bluetenhonig-Deutscher-Imkerhonig-kaltgeschleudert-1kg-7-98-/220925984886), but it's Heidehonig, not Blütenhonig.
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You may be right, though presumably the honey boxes keep the hives cool enough that most of the bees don't die. Who knows, maybe heat is one of the factors in the recent decline in honey bees in some regions of the globe, though I think honey boxes predate the worst part of the decline.
It looks like that honey is being advertised as cold extracted, if Google translator is working well, which means that at least one German honey maker (that perhaps some members of the beekeeper association sell their honeys to and meet their standards) does think there's a difference in the temperatures of some processing methods, yes?
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honey boxes are regarded as a very industrialized way to manage bee colonies, more and more conscious bee keepers are using top bar hives and other alternatives that mimic the proper environment a bee would create for itself. in the u.s.a, millions of bees are shipped across the country on 18 wheelers during the course of the season to fulfill pollination for large farms. the wide spread use of pesticides and huge swaths of monocultured crops covered in all manner of herbicides creates a devastated landscape that is uninhabitable to beneficial insects, birds and mammals and any plant/soil life that would support them. bees are kept in the same unhygienic conditions are stressed out just as cows and chickens are in breeding lots and slaughter houses.
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I realized that boxes were completely unnatural, but I never considered that they might be CAFO's for bees kind of. We have lush, biodiverse land on the bulk of our property, so they get plenty of good forage but those boxes are totally unnatural for sure.
Do you know what search terms I would key in for mimicry hives Jessica?
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top bar hive
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So freaking Cool J! I like the sound of "the comb on bars cannot be centrifuged to extract honey and then reused." !!
Just thank the bees, pull it out and consume, sounds like my kind of deal!
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It looks like that honey is being advertised as cold extracted, if Google translator is working well, which means that at least one German honey maker (that perhaps some members of the beekeeper association sell their honeys to and meet their standards) does think there's a difference in the temperatures of some processing methods, yes?
Not sure, there are bunch of honeys which say cold extracted. Specifically for heather honey it might be relevant, because I read that it's a very specific honey (thixotropic) and cold extraction is pretty hard requiring methods like a bunch of needles in each hole of the comb rotating in order to make it fluid, or alternatively by pressing the comb. And this one was really expensive (10 eur for 0.5kg), probably because of the involved extraction process.
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And this one was really expensive (10 eur for 0.5kg), probably because of the involved extraction process.
I pay about US$20 for a pound of cold-extracted honey from local small producers, so the price you mention sounds about right.
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Thanks for the lead, Jessica!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Greektopbarhive.png) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-bar_hive)
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I think I know why I have stomach ache from honey: it produces hydrogen peroxide?!
I'm trying to figure out in which situation it hurts, because sometimes I don't feel anything.
It's especially exacerbated when I'm drinking water just afterwards I think.
http://www.prlog.org/10227103-the-hydrogen-peroxide-producing-capacity-of-honey.html (http://www.prlog.org/10227103-the-hydrogen-peroxide-producing-capacity-of-honey.html)
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Raw honey is highly acidic and if I eat too much on an empty stomach I get stomachaches from it, as with other acidic foods. The interesting thing about it, though, is that with raw fermented honey, the discomfort quickly dissipates and the aches occur less and less with time, whereas acidic modern foods had the opposite effect on me (worsening with time). Non-acidic foods would likely have a better buffering effect than water. At least, that has been my experience.
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I don't have any stomach ache from other acidic foods, e.g., usually first thing in the morning I eat/drink is orange juice (which has much lower ph than honey).
So I don't believe it's the acidity itself for me.
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Sounds like it. I've seen a wide range of honey pH's reported, with some reports as low as 3.0 pH, but that's not much lower than the range for OJ, which I've seen reported as 3.4 - 3.6.
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i found this infograph chart thing on facebook of all places
but thought it was interesting that the second indication of "pure" honey is a slight burning in the back of the throat....hhhm...i know someone mentioned that here as a reason they were suspicious of their honey being raw. i wonder if this is just for pure and regularly extracted methods or if raw honey is different. i bought some "really raw honey" from the health food store, it came in a small plastic container, maybe two ounces, wasnt really impressed with the flavor, tastes more like the container, but ive also had really raw really fresh local honey before so i may be a snob......
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Great info Jessica. Thanks.
Top bar hives are so cool - but not practical for industry because you don't steal all the honey and feed them sugar in the winter like regular honey production. You don't use smoke. You don't stress the hive. You just take a little that they don't have trouble making enough more of for their winter food supply.
The shape of the standard hive is just because one of the first dudes to ever raise bees happened to have wood in that size in his shop. For reals! True story.
Jessica is also totally right about the reasons for hive collapse as the shipping and the pesticides. They came out with a new pesticide that is a neurotoxin that makes it so that the bees can't make it back to their hives. I forgot the name of the chemical - but most bee keepers consider it the cause of colony collapse.
They used the box shape that they do in industry for a very long time with no colony collapse. Top bar is much better for the bees, it's nicer to let the bees make their own shapes, but it's not really that big of a deal for the bees to follow the contours of the boxes. That's not the kind of stress that would make it so that they couldn't find their way back to their hives! Also, bees are amazing creatures and they are capable of reducing hive temperatures even in the sun - takes more energy to flap so hard probably - but a healthy hive can do it.
The great things about top bar hives ideology is that they are the natural ways bees would make their hives in the shapes they like.
No killing of drones.
No adding sugar.
No taking more than you should.
No messing with the bees more than you should.
No breeding of queens and replacing them. That's such a weird practice. Nowadays they take out queens and kill them and make their own queens in laboratories. That might be one of the things that could be destroying the bees. It's so weird. So stressful - just bizarre - makes no sense.
Btw - in terms of heat - here in Texas even the raw honey's are not raw because when it's so hot outside as soon as the honey is extracted even if no heat is added because the bees are not flapping their wings to keep the temps down the honey is going to be heated just because it's so darn hot outside.
I've determined that I won't buy any honey until after an extraction happens when the outdoor temperatures are low enough. That might not be until February - and therefore I might have to wait until spring to be really sure it was the stuff harvested when it was cooler outside.
It's actually easier to buy honey from a northern supplier when it comes to thinking about heat - but even with that just shipping here in hot trucks - buying before winter or spring it's unlikely that I will get unheated honey no matter how it is harvested or packaged.
I've been wanting a top bar hive for so very long. We'll build it and smear some honey in it and just attract some bees to it. Build it and they will come. :D Do your part to save the bees and build a top bar hive!
Here's the really great guy that started all "the buzz" on top bar hives. He has plans for top bar hives to build. The book isn't much more than what's on the website btw.
http://www.biobees.com/ (http://www.biobees.com/)
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I did most of the chart tests on Really Raw fermented honey and Wedderspoon 100% Raw Wild Dandelion honey. They both passed, except that, for me, I don't get the burning throat sensation from truly raw honeys, whereas I do get it from cheap supermarket honeys, and many raw honeys (such as these) are too thick by the time they are sold to "trickle," and the best honeys I've tried do partially dissolve in water, but my guess is the chart means they don't fully dissolve.
No breeding of queens and replacing them. That's such a weird practice. Nowadays they take out queens and kill them and make their own queens in laboratories.
One Vermont beekeeper got tired of his bees getting killed by parasites, despite the pesticides, so he stopped using them and many bees died off, but the survivors are much more hearty and resistant to the parasites and don't need pesticides. So no he specializes in raising and selling hearty queens to other beekeepers.
here in Texas even the raw honey's are not raw because when it's so hot outside
So it gets hotter than the max temp that is considered "unheated" for honey (92-93 degrees F per Aajonus and Rawesome) during honey-colleting time, right? I wonder if any of the Texas beekeepers try to keep the honey raw by collecting it in the early morning on cooler days or something?
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One Vermont beekeeper got tired of his bees getting killed by parasites, despite the pesticides, so he stopped using them and many bees died off, but the survivors are much more hearty and resistant to the parasites and don't need pesticides. So no he specializes in raising and selling hearty queens to other beekeepers.
O0 Good man helps the bees!
So it gets hotter than the max temp that is considered "unheated" for honey (92-93 degrees F per Aajonus and Rawesome) during honey-colleting time, right? I wonder if any of the Texas beekeepers try to keep the honey raw by collecting it in the early morning on cooler days or something?
They think it's a blessing to collect when it's hot because the honey flows so well. l) The "cool" times of the morning are just a couple of hours and there are is no such thing as a cool day until pretty much winter. Brian went outside today in the early morning and was thinking how cool it was - like it was becoming fall. He looked at the thermometer and it was a freezing 82 degrees in the shade.
I buy really raw honey this time of year - but still - I doubt it is raw by the time it gets to the store. I just think it will be still lower heated than the honeys in Texas where temperatures in the sun can get up to 140. People here don't understand that when they are buying raw honey this time of year, sure it isn't heating by the producers - they don't need to heat it because all the heat is provided by nature.
One thing people don't realize is that when you take the temperature in the shade it can be radically different than the temperature in the sun. If the product is not kept in the shade or carried through a large field in full sun - the temperature can get really high.
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12/13 degree variance between shade and sun if i remember correctly, but thats full shade and full sun..and any and all degrees between.
i thought the same about harvesting when warm out, but i would think the bees would more likely be in the comb at this time helping to keep the internal temp down so the larvae and queen would stay cool, and the comb itself. also i think nectar flows best in cooler temperatures especially right after a rain so bees would more likely be out collecting and it would be easier to keep em out of the hive? too much speculation on all of our parts i guess
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12/13 degree variance between shade and sun if i remember correctly, but thats full shade and full sun..and any and all degrees between.
I know this isn't true in Florida and Texas because I've measure the temps in the shade an the sun myself and they can be widely different. There is often more than a 50 degree difference.
I've made these measurements lots of times because after moving to the south I continually get weirded out about how different I can feel in the shade versus in the sun.
I think those numbers would be true up in most sane places to live. ;)