Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Health => Topic started by: risrosen on November 19, 2010, 10:58:42 pm
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The last few days I've been trying to do raw paleo, and I ended up just killing my already terrible digestion. Today I can't eat anything at all, my digestion is just dead. May be the worst episode I've ever had, and I've had some terrible ones.
I happened to get an email from Aajonus telling about his upcoming appearance on the 26th at a city within a day's drive from me, giving consultations. I emailed him, prior to this bad episode, asking if he thought he could help someone with as poor digestion as I have. He replied that he's helped people with worse digestion and told me to eat whole egg, starting with the white, to heal the digestive tract. And then for indigestion, his book says to eat raw honey.
Can he be trusted? Should I go down this route? The guy I've been following on diet, Matt Stone of 180 Degree Health, has written:
"The number of negative long-term health stories that I hear from former followers of AV far outweigh the number of happily-ever-afters. In fact, some of the most tragic dietary prisons I’ve seen people live in (barely live), were constructed around ideas gleaned from Aajonus’s “Primal Diet.” "
But I'm in a big hole.
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I don't think anyone really knows. All you can do is try and see if it works out.
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I trust Aajonus.
Except for the dairy. I just cannot digest dairy. I tried every trick Aajonus and Rami Nagel suggested how to digest dairy and it does not work for me. Not cow dairy, not goat dairy, not carabao dairy. It's just no good for me.
And I agree with Aajonus on the eggs for your digestion. I would suggest that too.
If you still have reserves, even a 1 to 3 day orange juice fast will restore your digestion.
Your definition of raw paleo may be different from ours.
Open up a food journal in this forum so people can see what you are doing. Take pics too.
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Your definition of raw paleo may be different from ours.
I got my definition of raw paleo from you! From your article that I read. I was eating meat, egg yolks, low glycemic-load fruit, coconut.
However, last night, after eating the raw beef, I took an hcl capsule, and some gelatin...and then later I started eating cereal and milk. That usually helps in these situations (believe it or not), but I guess I was past that.
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If you ask AV I am almost certain he will tell you to eat high meat.
I think you should try that first before you see him.
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I have to say, though, that I've never felt this good after a digestive disaster. Usually I feel horrible, but today I actually feel better than usual except for my stomach having that full feeling although it's empty. So I guess the raw meat must have done something good.
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The last few days I've been trying to do raw paleo, and I ended up just killing my already terrible digestion. Today I can't eat anything at all, my digestion is just dead. May be the worst episode I've ever had, and I've had some terrible ones.
I feel for you. When I started raw paleo, I just love it the way I feel my energy and the calmness in my stomach.(even though I didn't like the taste). I see my husband and my child were acted different than me when they started. This diet is not the drugs that u can see the result just trying for some days. Hoping your best health.
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I have to say, though, that I've never felt this good after a digestive disaster. Usually I feel horrible, but today I actually feel better than usual except for my stomach having that full feeling although it's empty. So I guess the raw meat must have done something good.
When I started eating raw, I had a week or so with heavy flu like symptoms. the shits, the shakes, the fever, the whole ball of vax. It passed and paved the way for something better than before. But the transition had me wondering if what I was doing was insanity.
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Gelatin, cereal and milk? No wonder you had problems! Best to make sure you are not allergic to any raw foods and try to avoid ALL non-rawpalaeo items in future. Some of us(by no means all) found out via experimentation that we did badly on raw dairy or raw veggie-juice or raw coconut oil/cream(ironically, all those being major constituents of Aajonus' Primal Diet). Other people came a cropper when they ate too much each day (a common AV-inspired false concept).
AV is, IMO, a curious mixture of superhuman genius and charlatan. Several of his ideas were the only reason I became healthy in the long run(the high-meat, the raw aspect etc.) and yet his insistence to me, at the time, that it was physically impossible for anyone to be allergic to raw dairy meant that I had to needlessly suffer another 6 months of misery before I had the sense to cut out all raw dairy from my diet.
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I know. I find him kind of preposterous, and yet I'm thinking of turning to him. But I would certainly take everything he says with a dose of salt and proceed as cautiously as a desperate person can. If he said to eat something that made me feel relentlessly bad, I wouldn't continue it.
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AV is, IMO, a curious mixture of superhuman genius and charlatan.
What do you think of his ideas on how viruses are not alive? Or contagious?
I know. I find him kind of preposterous, and yet I'm thinking of turning to him. But I would certainly take everything he says with a dose of salt and proceed as cautiously as a desperate person can. If he said to eat something that made me feel relentlessly bad, I wouldn't continue it.
I feel the same way.. He seems like such a nut, but with confidence that DEMANDS attention. I take everything he says with a grain of salt but I could listen to him for hours. Like telling people viruses are not contagious WTF??
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risrosen, you might have leaky gut syndrome from years of eating food that wasnt right for you - gluten/grains/dairy/etc
why dont you just eat clean paleo, either all raw or some cooked (im not advocating well-done cooking here)
if you want a more sane, but less extreme talk about paleo, read robb wolfs book the paleo solution.
some of what matt stone says makes bizarro sense, but he is neither a scientist nor a serious athlete, and robb is both, has healed himself of crazy sickness and trains high performance athletes.
matt may have some interesting tricks, but robb will also get you there systematically, not via hearsay. that being said, some of matt's inspirations like schwarzbein, martin berkham, are right on in regards to useful systems, except for some of the poisonous foods they recommended. also look at the GAPS diet, and see a good functional biological medicine doctor/naturopath who understands evolutionary nutrition.
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if you want a more sane, but less extreme talk about paleo, read robb wolfs book the paleo solution.
heh its for sure true that there is a much nicer vibe going on with Rob Wolf's stuff or Mark's Daily Apple. I don't follow the message boards there but I suspect theres alot less discusion of how awful everything is.
I have pretty much nothing bad to say about Aajonus. I find some of his ideas impractical, but there isn't a single thing i've found for certain to be incorrect. I do find his extreme nature to cultivate some really obsessive/negative things in people that are unwell. Even tho I believe in detox theories I am not surprised that some might do better on MS's program or other things. There is only so much one can suffer to the point of it being non-productive. I think Aajonus is stubborn in not acknowledging this. Anyway the unfortunate result that I think MS points out is you get for instance people complaining about vaccines (that everyone on the planet has had) or other things as impossible roadblocks to health. I can't even participate in much AV related health rants about which vaccine or pharmaceutical was a death sentence or whatever because always in my head i'm like..."dude i've had cancer and seem to being doing ok... just STFU and go run and play or something."
given the opportunity I personaly would still like to have a consultation/meet Aajonus
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why dont you just eat clean paleo, either all raw or some cooked (im not advocating well-done cooking here)
also lkook at the GAPS diet, and see a good functional biological medicine doctor/naturopath who understands evolutionary nutrition.
I can't follow any diet, at least none that I've ever found. I can't eat enough of the allowed foods because my digestive capacity is so poor, and so I always fall back on the cooked sweet carbs and milk late at night. Or with raw paleo, I can't digest the meat. And I don't seem to do well eating cooked meat without starch. I struggled for a long time to do that because I thought it was healthful. Then Matt clued me in that it weakens digestion over the long run, and when I added the starch back I did much better. The rules seem a lot different with raw, both for that and in terms of calorie requirements being much less.
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What do you think of his ideas on how viruses are not alive? Or contagious?
I disagree with it. I suppose he could be right to some extent, but people do catch colds or flus, even rawists like me on one occasion.
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Can you articulate further what you mean by 'digestion', or being 'dead', as in if you were to eat a whole egg in this state what would happen? I'm not a huge personal proponent of raw milk, but it appears you are drinking/mixing pastuerized milk with processed food and having no troubles. Why not get a few gallons of raw milk and eat small meals of meats and eggs when it feels right for a few days? There are a few other thigns I could suggest but at that point you might as well be dealing with AV because I don't even follow what you mean or get your particular situation. The spleen thing seems somewhat of an issue that others here might not understand I would think.
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What do you think of his ideas on how viruses are not alive? Or contagious?
(...)
Like telling people viruses are not contagious WTF??
GCB is much more logical:
A NEW THEORETICAL MODEL OF VIRAL PHENOMENA (http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggvirus.html)
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Can you articulate further what you mean by 'digestion', or being 'dead', as in if you were to eat a whole egg in this state what would happen? I'm not a huge personal proponent of raw milk, but it appears you are drinking/mixing pastuerized milk with processed food and having no troubles. Why not get a few gallons of raw milk and eat small meals of meats and eggs when it feels right for a few days? There are a few other thigns I could suggest but at that point you might as well be dealing with AV because I don't even follow what you mean or get your particular situation. The spleen thing seems somewhat of an issue that others here might not understand I would think.
Yeah, "digestion" is kind of vague. I suppose gastric emptying would be a better description. I have what seems like gastroparesis without the nausea and vomiting. When this thing happens the food just seems to sit in my stomach and not digest. And then even many hours later--even a whole day or longer sometimes--I still have a full feeling in my stomach, though not quite the same as when the food was in it. It's like nothing is moving. And when this first started happening, back in '97, I would also have a hard time passing what I'd eaten and I would have to take a laxative, and I wouldn't be able to eat anything until it got out. There was one particular event that happened--it was the very first time it happened: I ate a breakfast that included a glob of greasy hash browns. And I couldn't eat for a day or two, until I took a laxative and got it out. And that was it; I've never had a normal stomach capacity since then. I started living on mostly cereal and sweet things at that point. Sometimes during the next few years I could only eat quite tiny amounts at a time, and the slightest thing would set my stomach off.
Actually, now I remember (I haven't had to deal with this much, or not so acutely, for quite some time), I think it could be the presence of gas in my stomach that remains after the food is gone--I have had relief a few times from simethicone (Gas-X). And it happens sometimes even when I haven't eaten food, in response to taking a supplement or something, or maybe just a very small bite of some food. Now that I'm thinking about it, I wonder if each of those things is creating gas. Would the gas possibly be coming from candida? Does anyone know? In which case the coconut oil detox might be good for me to do after all?
God, I hope so. I'm going to go get some Gas-X right now.
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I've met Aajonus.Nice guy but I can't stand his focus on dairy and honey.
Having said that,his ideas at the time were most likely impossible to "market" without those two crappy(imo) ingredients.
Btw,I also don't care for his fairytale-like stories about coyotes,caves etc...
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Btw,I also don't care for his fairytale-like stories about coyotes,caves etc...
Coyotes feeding him rabbits... trippin on psychedelics and more...That could have been a book by itself
I have had a few positive experiences with wild coyote but never have they served me dinner. XD
It is possible but IMO He just gave people like durianrider a bunch of stuff to run with to bash raw meat and make him look silly.
If it did happen than he has some balls to share it, he must know damn well that sounds like lunacy to most people.
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so, ris rosen, i have had many forms of gut issues, including years of constipation.
what really helped me is to deny my carb cravings, eat less sugars, eat LOTS of healthy protein and LOTS of healthy fats, work with a good doctor, take prescribed probiotics and other supplements, eat fermented foods, use magnesium, do everything to relieve stress, inflammation and cortisol.
basically, do not eat the bad shit. you have to love yourself enough to get through the painful bio-chemical issues that effect your brain and mood and make you think in an altered state.
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so, ris rosen, i have had many forms of gut issues, including years of constipation.
what really helped me is to deny my carb cravings, eat less sugars, eat LOTS of healthy protein and LOTS of healthy fats, work with a good doctor, take prescribed probiotics and other supplements, eat fermented foods, use magnesium, do everything to relieve stress, inflammation and cortisol.
basically, do not eat the bad shit. you have to love yourself enough to get through the painful bio-chemical issues that effect your brain and mood and make you think in an altered state.
I know that's good advice for most people, but for me the issue is that I simply can't get enough food doing that. I've tried many, many times to just do it on self-control, but it doesn't work because it's not really that I'm so addicted to sugar, at least it doesn't seem like it. Maybe there is a little of that, but it's mostly that I get extremely depleted because I'm not eating enough, because I can't eat enough of the good stuff, and I turn to the easiest thing to digest, which is all I can eat late at night. And I've been depleted for so long that I no longer have the capacity to go for any length of time on insufficient calories. This has been going on for 15+ years.
I was on a fermented milk diet for months this year--nothing but that. I never had a craving for sugar. But I also had a hard time digesting all that clabbered milk, a cup every half hour I was supposed to do. I had a hard time just swallowing it, which is a common symptom for me. Yet since I was drinking so much of it, I was getting enough food and so I didn't crave sugar. In a previous attempt, I didn't know to skim the fat off it before clabbering it, and so I really had a hard time; I couldn't drink enough of it, and after a week or two I did have to go for the cereal late at night.
That's the way it's been, anyway. I don't know what I'm going to do now. I still can't eat anything, I haven't had anything but honey all day (a la Aajonus).
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That's the way it's been, anyway. I don't know what I'm going to do now. I still can't eat anything, I haven't had anything but honey all day (a la Aajonus).
Have you tried blending meat? That may be easier to digest
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i dont see how ground raw meat is harder to digest than your alternative. are you counting your calories? i ask this because people who eat lots of carbs instead of fat have leptin resistance and cannot tell when they are full. eating fat and protein increases leptin sensitivity.
2000 calories a day of raw meat fat and protein is easy to obtain and eat, compared to the pain it seems like youre going through. i dont think the milk and sugar diet is helping you heal.
if its low stomach acid or an enzyme deficiency, buy some "Now super enzymes" from iherb.com and take a whole bunch with each meal until your symptoms reduce.
there was still sugar in the fermented milk, so dont kid yourself. and if you eat enough protein your body will make the carbs it needs from that.
im still not sure how you can't eat anything but honey. is your esophagus swollen? do you immediately regurgitate it back up? seriously, have you seen an actual doctor of naturopathy/bio-func. med?
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i dont see how ground raw meat is harder to digest than your alternative. are you counting your calories? i ask this because people who eat lots of carbs instead of fat have leptin resistance and cannot tell when they are full. eating fat and protein increases leptin sensitivity.
2000 calories a day of raw meat fat and protein is easy to obtain and eat, compared to the pain it seems like youre going through. i dont think the milk and sugar diet is helping you heal.
if its low stomach acid or an enzyme deficiency, buy some "Now super enzymes" from iherb.com and take a whole bunch with each meal until your symptoms reduce.
there was still sugar in the fermented milk, so dont kid yourself. and if you eat enough protein your body will make the carbs it needs from that.
im still not sure how you can't eat anything but honey. is your esophagus swollen? do you immediately regurgitate it back up? seriously, have you seen an actual doctor of naturopathy/bio-func. med?
Well, it's a gastric emptying problem, I think. Gastroparesis or something close to it. I have most of the symptoms. People who have gastroparesis, delayed gastric emptying, have a lot of trouble with certain things: fiber and fat are the chief ones, and also raw food. Gatroparesis diets always forbid much of any of that; raw vegetables for sure, and certainly raw meat would be right out. And I can certainly see why.
I don't know why I can't eat right now. If it's not stomach gas--and the Gas-X didn't help at all this time, by the way--then I don't know. But I just have this unrelenting feeling of fullness in my stomach.
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so i dont know a lot about your condition, but it also seems like youre also unsure of what it definitely is. the gas-x seems like a problem, in the same way tylenol is not actually helpful against pain, merely treating a symptom and creating side effects.
i also dont see how raw veggies and raw meat are similar in any way.
plant fiber and protein is completely different from raw meat protein and fat, which has no fiber.
in the wild, man can thrive on raw meat, but not at all on raw plants. it seems like your fear, pain and definition of the word "raw" is limiting your options.
if digestion of fats is the problem, the suyper enzymes (with subtitute stomach acid betaine HCL, and ox bile) and the enzyme LIPASE will help with, as that is what people with a removed gallbladder have to take to digest fats, having no more bile salts.
i know that when i eat mainly carbs, i always feel full and bloated (and still hungry re: leptin malfunction) because the bad bacteria is outgassing and i also get candida symptoms. sugar feeds bacteria...
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It seems to me that it's kind of a maxim in raw food circles that raw food is easier to digest because all the enzymes are intact. That's only one aspect of what makes for digestive ease. There's the issue of breaking the food down so it can be digested in the first place. Raw food simply isn't broken down, or whatever it is that happens when heat is applied. Cooking renders food easier for the stomach to process, without question. Raw foods are much easier for people with impaired stomachs to process. The only exception is ripe fruit.
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Have you done any colon cleanses?
When and what types of colon cleanses?
If not, then you should.
I know. I find him kind of preposterous, and yet I'm thinking of turning to him. But I would certainly take everything he says with a dose of salt and proceed as cautiously as a desperate person can. If he said to eat something that made me feel relentlessly bad, I wouldn't continue it.
Aajonus is a healer.
I am a healer myself, thanks to his works.
Although I follow my own path with his teachings included.
He's not preposterous.
Aajonus' stuff works.
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I have had some colonics but not a systematic program of them. I'm not sure how a clean colon would affect the gastroparesis issue. I'm not saying it wouldn't, but I was severely constipated for a long time, and the relief of it through the fermented milk diet has been the one good thing that's happened to me. I'd be really leery of wiping out all of that bacteria. I'm not sure how easily I could get it back. I'm digging my heels in about this, though, and I would like to learn more.
I'm giving your orange juice fast suggestion a try now.
Thanks to everyone for dialoguing with me about this today, by the way. It's probably saved me from doing anything drastic. (I'm not closing the dialogue, just want to add that.)
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I have had some colonics but not a systematic program of them. I'm not sure how a clean colon would affect the gastroparesis issue. I'm not saying it wouldn't, but I was severely constipated for a long time, and the relief of it through the fermented milk diet has been the one good thing that's happened to me. I'd be really leery of wiping out all of that bacteria. I'm not sure how easily I could get it back. I'm digging my heels in about this, though, and I would like to learn more.
I'm giving your orange juice fast suggestion a try now.
Thanks to everyone for dialoguing with me about this today, by the way. It's probably saved me from doing anything drastic. (I'm not closing the dialogue, just want to add that.)
You need a herbal colon cleanser like barefootherbalist.com LBB
Or Colosan
Or Oxypowder
Or Castor Oil
In my country, the best one is Dr. Tam's Miracle tea.
Colon cleansing is the first and most important thing chronically constipated people need to do. Then, everything will be fine, easier, faster.
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It seems to me that it's kind of a maxim in raw food circles that raw food is easier to digest because all the enzymes are intact. That's only one aspect of what makes for digestive ease. There's the issue of breaking the food down so it can be digested in the first place. Raw food simply isn't broken down, or whatever it is that happens when heat is applied. Cooking renders food easier for the stomach to process, without question. Raw foods are much easier for people with impaired stomachs to process. The only exception is ripe fruit.
Incorrect. Cooking makes food less digestible. There are various scientific studies on meat protein by Oste et al which show that cooking makes protein in meats LESS digestible , not more. Iguana also recently made a post where he indicated that heat renders the molecules in food much less digestible by the budy's natural enzymes and acids.
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Okay, then explain to me why I've been eating 4-6 ounces of cooked meat per meal, for meals in which I ate meat, every day for years, without any mishaps, and yet I couldn't handle two days of eating raw meat, I couldn't eat and have never in the last 10 years been able to eat more than 2 oz. of raw meat at a time, and I had such a very difficult time with even that much last night, even prior to the gelatin and cereal.
I don't know much about the physiology of digestion. But it's simply a fact that raw meat takes much more sheer digestive power to process. And why that is seems very obvious; after all, raw meat is harder to chew and harder to cut than cooked. If it take more energy to break down with a knife and with teeth, it must take more energy for the stomach to break it down. Why did Aajonus suggest I eat raw eggs instead of raw meat? They're a semi-liquid, therefore easier to break down. I'm talking strictly about that initial level of it.
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I am afraid you are making some false assumptions. Here is an example of what I was talking about from the raw foodism wikipedia page:-
"Another study has shown that meat heated for 10 minutes at 130 °C (266 °F), showed a 1.5% decrease in protein digestibility.[99] Similar heating of hake meat in the presence of potato starch, soy oil, and salt caused a 6% decrease in amino acid content.[100][101]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_foodism#Potential_harmful_effects_of_cooked_foods
Various issues:-
1) enzymes in raw foods have c. 30 minutes in which to work on digesting raw foods in the mouth and upper stomach before they eventually get destroyed in the lower stomach. If one is eating mostly cooked foods, then that means the body has to make more enzymes from its own organs, which is why so many old-aged SAD-eaters are forced to take additional enzyme-supplements as their enzyme-producing organs wear out faster as a result, with age.
2) Almost all RVAFers report finding raw meats much, much easier to digest than cooked meats. The digestion is reported to take shorter periods than with cooked meats - in my own case, my stools were also smaller with raw meat-consumption than with cooked meats, and wouldn't be surprised if this holds true for most RVAFers too. The only times there were differences, other than 1 or 2 hypochondriacs re psychosomatic issues, were when people(such as yourself it seems) had very, very unusual, individual conditions(genetic etc. etc.), or were also eating unsuitable non-rawpalaeo foods, or were unknowingly allergic to some raw food such as raw dairy or raw eggs or some such. Oh, there is 1 other exception, of course:- it is common for people to expertience transitional detox effects when going from cooked to raw. For example, I had green diarrhea for the first 2 to 3 days,where I had to go to the bathroom every 30 minutes or less, during waking hours. Others get constipation, and no doubt a few get malabsorption/maldigestion, but , these detoxes are usually minor, and always temporary(I have yet to hear, though, of any such initial detox lasting more than 2 to 3 weeks, and usually it's only a few days). Raw foods seem to require less stomach-acid than with cooked foods, plus there are other changes, so the body has to adjust.
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Iguana's previous post explains some of the reasons why raw food is easier to digest.
"Heating accelerates the movement of molecules. The hotter an object is, the faster its molecules move and bang on each other. Proteins being extremely complex organic molecules composed of hundreds or thousands of atoms in extremely accurate, specific spatial location, they are likely to by damaged by those shocks if the temperature is too high (above 40 – 45°C).
Biochemical reactions are extremely complex, exact and precise. The proteins must be broken into amino acids, and that’s the duty of our enzymes. There’s a very distinct and defined adjustment between the enzymes and recognitions sites on the proteins: they adjust like a key into a lock. For each recognition site, there’s a specific enzyme type. If this site is damaged, the enzyme may be stuck on it, blocking the reaction and it won’t be available to split the following proteins.
The worst is that, if a protein is normal on its other recognition sites, it won’t be identified and eliminated immediately as an antigen. It might therefore be admitted into the body where it can cause all sorts of troubles such as perturb the immune system, for example.
It can be inferred that lightly damaged proteins may be more dangerous than completely destroyed ones, since the latter will immediately be recognized as such by the immune system, and won’t be admitted into the metabolism. So cooking at “low temperature” may not be a good idea. It’s better to completely carbonize the stuff!"
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And why that is seems very obvious; after all, raw meat is harder to chew and harder to cut than cooked. If it take more energy to break down with a knife and with teeth, it must take more energy for the stomach to break it down.
interesting, i find it the exact opposite. it is MUCH easier for me to chew raw meat than cooked. and cutting it is much easier too. almost no effort. raw digests much faster for me as a result. my stomach is empty after about an hour after eating raw meat. it takes nearly 3 or 4 hours for cooked. this is all my personal experience. it's almost as if you haven't really tried eating raw meat...
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it's almost as if you haven't really tried eating raw meat...
I second that, two hours tops and my stomach empty.
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interesting, i find it the exact opposite. it is MUCH easier for me to chew raw meat than cooked. and cutting it is much easier too. almost no effort. raw digests much faster for me as a result. my stomach is empty after about an hour after eating raw meat. it takes nearly 3 or 4 hours for cooked. this is all my personal experience. it's almost as if you haven't really tried eating raw meat...
I have this very same experience. 1 hour to digest raw meat. And 3 to 4 hours to digest cooked meat.
And raw meat is more filling than cooked so I eat less raw meat than cooked meat.
I noticed there is a gradual shift as I get used to raw meat, the more raw meat I can eat.
Has something to do with removing the icky factor in the subconscious.
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risronen - eat ground meat, it makes a big difference. I can relate to some of the problems you describe, including poor digestion and gastroparesis (as well as the sensitivity to fat and fiber). Raw meat is certainly easier to digest than cooked, even whole unchewed, unground pieces. The problem you are experiencing is most likely not caused by the actual digestibility of the raw meat, but the raw meat being swallowed in large pieces. Large pieces of food such as unground muscle meats and connective tissue are problematic for me and I eat muscle meat that is ground.
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I used to have poor digestion when my liver was blocked with lots of liver stones.
When I did my liver flushes and rebuilt my liver, I could gradually eat more and more meat.
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Okay, okay...first I want to say that out of sheer desperation and not-giving-a-f*ck anymore, seeing that the juice fast was going to do me no good, I ate a whole raw egg, as AV said to. And you know what? My stomach feels a lot better.
And okay, some raw meats are easy to chew, particularly ground meat. Fish is definitely harder, at least the cod I yesterday and the day before (maybe others are easier--salmon, tuna). Steak was fine. Liver is definitely harder!!! And beef liver has a totally gross taste. Lamb liver is okay. Anyway, I'll give in, I don't even want to think about it anymore tonight. The raw egg seems to have worked, and I'm a lot happier.
Yes, I have tried to eat raw meat, as much as I was able. It's just been hard, or I haven't been doing it right, or something. The first prolonged round, a few years ago, I would eat it with coconut oil and raw butter, which might have complicated things. I did a whole week of 3x/day meat eating then. But the ick factor carries very little weight with me. After 15+ years of suffering like this? I don't find raw mammal muscle meat icky at all anyway. Organ meat a lot more, but it still doesn't bother me. If you asked me to eat a cockroach, yeah...EXTREME ick factor. Or insect larva. But raw meat? No.
I would think enjoyment would be kind of important, though, to stimulate the production of stomach acid. If the food you're eating is completely unstimulating, might it not be harder for you to digest because of that? So maybe muscle meats are better for the newbie. Maybe that's why last night's liver went down so bad, I didn't enjoy it at all.
Yeah, the meat being swallowed in large pieces...I'd just read on somebody's site that Aajonus says don't chew it much (though I see there's disagreement on that issue here)......so I was trying not to. I wasn't swallowing it in large pieces, though. But I was swallowing the liver without much chewing. In small pieces, but maybe I do need to start off with ground meat.
But for the moment, eggs it is.
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Raw meat is much closer to liquid than cooked meat, and it's much softer.
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Raw meat is much closer to liquid than cooked meat, and it's much softer.
Yes, raw foods have a higher water-content, which leads to better digestibility, generally.
I am surprised re the comment about raw liver. When my own digestive system was nearly ruined by decades of SAD-eating, my switch to rawpalaeo was still a little difficult .My teeth were so loose from eating cooked, and my stomach so wrecked, that I had to eat ground, raw meat and I found the softer raw organ-meats(raw liver and raw kidney) to digest quicker and better than the raw muscle-meats, ground or not.
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I guess raw liver could be not as soft but still easier to digest than cooked. Perhaps as you said, I'm making some erroneous assumptions. Yesterday I read an article by Mark Sisson citing a study that found that cooked egg protein is much more bioavailable than raw, and yet I'm certain that what happened to me last night with the raw egg would not have happened with a cooked one. Not only did it clear my stomach and rejuvenate me, I actually slept last night after a day of maybe 700-800 calories, most of it raw honey. No restless leg syndrome. The one egg was my only fat and protein. That's astonishing.
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Raw liver seems softer to me than cooked as well.
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I hated cooked liver.. I find that raw liver tastes pretty good every once and a while.
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I guess raw liver could be not as soft but still easier to digest than cooked. Perhaps as you said, I'm making some erroneous assumptions. Yesterday I read an article by Mark Sisson citing a study that found that cooked egg protein is much more bioavailable than raw, and yet I'm certain that what happened to me last night with the raw egg would not have happened with a cooked one. Not only did it clear my stomach and rejuvenate me, I actually slept last night after a day of maybe 700-800 calories, most of it raw honey. No restless leg syndrome. The one egg was my only fat and protein. That's astonishing.
Risrosen,
Good to hear that you're feeling better. I remember reading a study about cooked vs raw egg white, it's probably the same one that Mark Sisson cited. The study was done on people who had their colons removed. At the end of the small intestine, the remainder of the food was analyzed for protein content. Higher protein was found for raw egg white than cooked. The conclusion was, that the raw egg white protein is not digested well (since protein digestion does not take place in the large intestine). Two things to keep in mind:
1. This study was done on sick people, who had their colons removed. Its results do not necessarily generalize to healthy people.
2. This study was done on people who are used to a standard diet. Their gut flora, and their tastebuds, were probably not used to raw eggs. So the results do not necessarily generalize to people who enjoy raw eggs, and eat them on a regular basis.
For people who have serious digestive issues, Aajonus often prescribes lots of eggs, butter, and honey, and not much else (because those foods are easiest to digest). Maybe a small fish meal or a bit of milk when you have the appetite for it. And only start eating meat when your digestion gets better.
About Aajonus vs Matt Stone --
Keep in mind that most diet gurus' advice is largely based on their own experience. I used to read Matt Stone's blog. He's a young man who never had any serious health problems. He has experimented with zero-carb, vegan, all-milk, and several other diets, and did OK on all of them. He has never been in the shoes of someone with a serious illness.
On the other hand, Aajonus had many illnesses, and an operation which turned off HCl secretion in his stomach. Consequently, he practically can't digest cooked food, and finds honey to be a miracle digestive aid.
About Aajonus' theories and ideas --
I suspect that when Aajonus writes books/newsletters or presents workshops, he deliberately oversimplifies some of his theories, to present a simple philosophy to help people get well. Most of his audience is not interested in a scientific debate/discussion about viruses and germs and enzymes and cooking.
Here's an older thread about this:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/allergic-to-cooked-green-and-red-vegetables/
About the coyote story --
I have no way of judging whether it's true or not. It certainly is possible for animals to act in unusual ways, and help and feed others. Take a look at this video, where a crow feeds and takes care of a kitten. In light of this, the coyote story is not completely implausible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JiJzqXxgxo&feature=player_embedded
About cooked vs raw meat digestion --
Like many others, I also find that raw meat digests better than cooked. But it was not always like this. When I was starting out with raw meat, I went through periods where it did not digest so well. And I spent a few months on the "Wai diet" (fruit, eggs, and fish, and nuts, all raw) before eating raw meat. Although I see the Wai diet as being detrimental in the long-term, I think it can be a good "preparation" for raw paleo, to get your body used to raw animal foods in a gradual way.
GCB is much more logical:
A NEW THEORETICAL MODEL OF VIRAL PHENOMENA (http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggvirus.html)
Iguana,
That was interesting to read. Thanks for posting this. In a nutshell, it hypothesizes that viruses are tools for eliminating foreign molecules, rather than "inherently pathogenic". It's similar to AV's view, but is more conservative, and written in a more scientific way.
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About the coyote story --
I have no way of judging whether it's true or not. It certainly is possible for animals to act in unusual ways, and help and feed others. Take a look at this video, where a crow feeds and takes care of a kitten. In light of this, the coyote story is not completely implausible.
Yeah, I re-read it last night and it doesn't sound so far out to me now. I mean, it's not like the coyotes talked to him.
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Yeah, I re-read it last night and it doesn't sound so far out to me now. I mean, it's not like the coyotes talked to him.
If it did happen it would be by far one of the most beautiful stories I have ever heard.
Coyotes are actually pretty cool animals, here in Az I have run into packs and had no worry.
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Someone once posted here a video of a sealion offering actually raw fish to an underwater photographer. I still doubt Aajonus's story, though, as it is painfully similiar to Jesus' 40 days/40 nights legend.
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If it did happen it would be by far one of the most beautiful stories I have ever heard.
Coyotes are actually pretty cool animals, here in Az I have run into packs and had no worry.
Well, I was joking. Thinking of Carlos Castaneda and the talking deer. ;)
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also ris rosen, find all the highest quality meats that you can, and see which ones your body likes the best. raw liver from one farm or animal may be totally different than another.
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WOAH Michaelw that crow and cat video was awesome! At first I read 'the cow and the cat'.
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also ris rosen, find all the highest quality meats that you can, and see which ones your body likes the best. raw liver from one farm or animal may be totally different than another.
You mean not all beef liver tastes that bad? It was grass-fed.
I was starting to make high meat out of some of it. Guess I'll go for it.
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WOAH Michaelw that crow and cat video was awesome! At first I read 'the cow and the cat'.
Yeah, me too! My own cat seemed very interested in that video as he watched it along with me! 8) ???
You mean not all beef liver tastes that bad?
I found that liver can be very different from an individual animal to another of the same specie, up to the point that one can be delightful and the other one awful. By the way, it’s the same for all real, wild natural products: each one is different. Standardization is plainly artificial.
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You mean not all beef liver tastes that bad? It was grass-fed.
I was starting to make high meat out of some of it. Guess I'll go for it.
Healthy fresh beef liver is supposed to taste GOOD!
In my wet market I CHOOSE which liver to buy. If all of them look bad, I don't buy them. And I taste them on the spot before I buy.