Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: svrn on May 28, 2012, 12:35:10 pm
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This seemed more convincing to me than aajonuses claims.
http://www.westonaprice.org/vitamins-and-minerals/the-salt-of-the-earth (http://www.westonaprice.org/vitamins-and-minerals/the-salt-of-the-earth)
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i don't know what is the answer re salt, but this is just the other extreme end of the spectrum. i don't like reading things that sound like they are trying to sell me something or sell me on something, and that's exactly what this does. it reads like sally fallon received a ton of money from the salt industry to write a persuasive article... it annoyed me, really.
toxicologically speaking, salt is a 'toxin'... the body works to excrete it immediately. if the there is more salt in a person's body such that it exceeds the rate of elimination, the person dies. there are plenty of cited literature to this, and disgustingly, parents used salt to kill their own children, others as a punishment.
if small amounts of added salt have benefit, could be. i personally don't add salt to anything just because i don't have the desire. when i do add salt, i don't like it for one, and it just doesn't feel right for me. i sweat a lot, i think. i work out, plus i take 'hot yoga'. i don't crave salt. i don't eat it. i don't get cramps or any other sign of ill-health. i do sometimes crave seafood which may have something to do with salt?... and i do like the salty flavor of an extra bloody red meat sometimes... maybe my salt needs are met that way.
ps. TOD, i'm glad and thank you for posting the article. i hate when my criticisms are negative, and I don't know what the answer is!... i know lex (still?) adds salt to his meal each day. if it works for you and you like it, like how it feels for you, then i wouldn't worry about it.
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*TOD and others, could you please, please not always try to post your threads in the General Discussions forum. Yes, I know you want maximum visibility for your thread, but many of those threads should have been put in other forums. This practice makes the general discussions forum over-large and too vague, topic-wise, while making the other forums smaller than they need be.*
This thread should have gone to the Hot Topics forum as salt is non-palaeo. Done so now.
Ioanna's points are dead-on. Sally Fallon is just doing a plug for the salt-industry. Besides, salt only became used en masse in the Neolithic era. Plus, salt was used for preserving meats on long journeys and for making cooked meats more palatable.
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thats like saying she was paid off by the meat industry to promote meat even though there is no evidence of that especially since she doesnt recommend corporate meat and says we should get the purest meat we can from local sources, something I dont think "big meat" would want her to do. Same thing with salt, she says not to get the "big salt industry" fortified and refined salt but only to get the completely natural variety, something I think the salt industry would be very opposed to.
id say pretty much all of those people that were harmed by salt were from dirty big name salt brands. WAP reccomends salt like this which is the salt equivalent of wild game vs, factory meat.
http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/product/Celtic-Sea-Salt-Coarse (http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/product/Celtic-Sea-Salt-Coarse)
I find her point about early people drinking the blood to fulfill their salt needs to be especially curious. since I dont drink blood wouldnt I be deficient in salt?
I think its best to analyze her points which seem more valid to me than the anti salt people rather than just get paranoid about it because you disagree and say she was paid off.
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The amount of salt used in chemical, fertilizer and de-icing purposes is many much more than the salt used in food. I don't think the salt companies have much to gain if people used more salt in their diet.
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the salt companies have nothing to gain from people buying unrefined and unfortified salt.
also the feds trying to ban salt makes me very suspicious of anti salt claims. usually anything that the feds try to ban is actually good for you.
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Satya, a former member, once pointed out that Sally Fallon was a con-artist who avidly defended a grassfed meat farmer, recommended by her WAPF organisation, even after members of the US public had condemned him for deliberately feeding his supposedly 100% grassfed meat cattle partially on grains. So she is clearly in league with companies to make profits.
Incidentally, I used sea-salt previously after several years of rawpalaeo as a little experiment. It was a disaster, as I felt a sharp, unpleasant, very acrid feeling in my mouth so that I had to stop after just consuming a couple of pinches of sea-salt. Clearly, it was my body's way to tell me that it was a toxic nutrient.
As regards natural salts, they exist in meats as well, not just blood, so there's no need to eat sea-salt/rock-salt.
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the salt companies have nothing to gain from people buying unrefined and unfortified salt.
Not logical. I've seen standard companies selling unrefined salt in supermarkets for profit. The FDA etc. is hurting their profits as so many foods are overly laced with salt, so they are doing a counter-attack via Sally Fallon etc.
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where is your proof for this counterattack? Sounds like paranoia to me.
Also the only place iv found pure salt, without stuff like anticaking agents, which even the salts which claim extreme purity have, was whole foods and other health food stores. every other place just carries crap.
and please dont give me these baseless conspiracy theories of sally fallon being paid off. Give me some proof or else your just wasting my time.
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Satya talked about this and specifically mentioned a local WAPF chapter she was in which was involved. She wasn't making this up. Ask her over at dirtycarnivore forum for more details on the story. She's in charge of the forum, last I checked.
As regards salt, I've bought it also, once or twice, since going rawpalaeo, from health food stores(planet organic), and it was wholly unrefined salt. Whole foods is a con, the store in the UK that they have sold meats that were low quality but very expensive. There are far better stores out there.
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I know whole foods sucks, im just saying that and other health food stores is the only plae iv seen pure salt.
also i dont understand what you are telling me satya was talking about. DId she uncover some hidden funding or something? Im confused as to what you are trying to convey here.
asking me to sign up for another forum just to ask one question is a bit much. Why cant you just tell me what she said?
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Personally I dislike salt. It only seems like a good idea with the first taste but it's results to me are quick and decisive, similar to what Tyler said, however some people do very well and in fact require salt added to their diet, because of the way their physiology is. I didn't read Sally's article, but just skimmed it, looking at the usual salt myths.
I doubt she is being paid off by "Big Salt" but, she is clearly one of those who like and do well on salt.
A friend of mine has high blood pressure and discovered it was mainly from drinking a small container of V8 juice with his lunch. Salt is hygroscopic and so when it gets into the bloodstream it wants to swell it with moisture and presumably that is why salt causes this issue. It also causes other serious issues and Ayurveda says it will cause prematurely grey hair.
I've used salt on my food twice, the first and the last time. So according to her article I should be dead/stupid/sickly looking/messed up nervous system etc. This of course is false.
However the world is not so simple, I found out recently in this article by a Ayurvedic physician, Vaidya Mishra's Newsletter #16, May 25, 2012.
In this article he gives the best explanation of the different types of salt that I have seen. Yes he does sell the stuff which of course raises a red flag, but I am curious enough to check it out.
Here is one variety he sells which I have not noticed elsewhere http://www.chandika.com/products/Soma-Salt.html (http://www.chandika.com/products/Soma-Salt.html)
When reading this, just keep going past the Ayurvedic Sanskrit words, as there is good info downstream and you don't need to understand the terms.
http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1102090353539-350/Salt+weight+gain+and+cellular+water+retention.pdf (http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1102090353539-350/Salt+weight+gain+and+cellular+water+retention.pdf)
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Satya naturally didn't want to give out details, she just mentioned that, a few years back, her local WAPF chapter had promoted a grassfed meat farmer who was reported to the WAPF by several members as fraudulently having sold partially grainfed meat as being 100% grassfed meats. When Sally Fallon heard about this, she fanatically defended the farmer and refused to allow action against him. There was some mention of kickbacks from the farmer to the WAPF, as I recall. Ask Satya at dirtycarnivore for more data.
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very interesting. This however wouldnt point to her analysis of salt being bad since all of the salt wapf reccomends is from companies too small to be able to offer an adequate bribe in my opinion. I would need to hear more about this however.
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very interesting. This however wouldnt point to her analysis of salt being bad since all of the salt wapf reccomends is from companies too small to be able to offer an adequate bribe in my opinion. I would need to hear more about this however.
Companies do not give individual bribes. What they do is form large organisations of companies selling the same foods, calling themselves "The Salt Council/Salt Advisory Board or whatever, and those boards of countless companies then give bribes.
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Indeed. However that salt I posted earlier didnt seem to be attached to any of those types of organizations and it was recommended by wapf.
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this seems like a good video. Maybe hes just trying to sell his salt though. I think im gonna try it either way and see what it does.
Amazing Health Benefits of Himalayan Salt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoE4ugZclk4#ws)
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i would suggest using kelps and seaweeds instead, many more minerals, much less sodium
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whats a good brand? does it only come dry?
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maine coast harvest excellent seaweed...
i get the granulated and powdered kelp and the dulse flakes
their big pieces of dulse are fuckin tasty though, they are nice and soft
but yeah, ive only ever bought it dried, its generally sun dried
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Satya, a former member
OT:
Satya's a former? How did I miss that? Registration over there is disabled, too. Oh wellz...
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We used to eat dulse from the ocean off the Nova Scotia. It's a thin seaweed and is probably an acquired taste. We used to lots of it during a short period in the summer. It is quite nice to throw it briefly on a wood stove till it turns crispy. However it's too salty for me to eat now.
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Oh my dad's side is from NS Al, and I do love me some dulse, like a lot of folk up that way yum! But like you said, way too salty!
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I went to a seminar where there were people from all over Canada attending. They put some dulse in the welcome package and the people from the prairies had no idea what it was. One guy put it in his pipe and tried to smoke it. It was hilarious.
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Lol!!! That is too funny. I love that country, the people are sooo much fun!
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Satya is rather occupied with a complicated piece of work right now but she was willing to give a few more details. If you want to be pedantic, you could ask her perhaps in a couple of months for extremely exact details when she can check up more re exact names/dates, but it's not necessary.
Here is what she said:-
"It was a ranch in the US state of Florida that was using orange pulp and rinds - refuse from the orange juice industry - to supplement the cattle's feed. I do believe the cattle were for beef, not dairy. Some members in that local WAPF chapter complained about it. Sally supported the rancher for this practice and did not ask for a change to more traditional methods. They did not spell out this situations to members at all. I cannot imagine that this feed was good for the cattle or their beef.
But much worse than that imo is Sally's position on breastfeeding. In fact, I would have to say that from a general perspective, her biggest problem is with personal bias clouding her judgment. You see, Sally could not successfully breastfeed. And so in her position as leader of the WAPF, she is nearly anti-breastfeeding. I am sorry, but for mammals, it doesn't get any more primal/paleo/whathaveyou than feeding an infant the right food. You can see ample evidence of this stance in the healthy children section of their site, beginning with "breastfeeding saga" article. http://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health (http://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health) Beyond that, she has taken a soft stance on smoking, as her father smoked. She is anti alcohol (not a bad thing really) because of her upbringing. And she has admitted that the reason she is anti pork in her book is because Mary Enig is a practicing Jew. I think anyone who is going to recommend a diet for people should really keep personal matters out of policy decisions. certainly we all have personal anecdotes about this and that that we share with others who might try the same things on their own or not. But to paint breastfeeding or pork as inherently bad does a disservice to the ancestral health community."
Quite frankly, Satya has shown just how corrupt Sally Fallon is. I mean, a lot of the tribes/peoples WP visited drank alcohol, so it is hardly appropriate to exclude it from a WAPF diet purely for Prohibition-era-derived biases. The bit about pork is appalling, too. Because of the ridiculous Judaeo-Islamic views towards pigs, pigs have been unfairly damned as being unclean(they are actually very clean animals when not shut up in tiny cages by humans without means to get rid of the waste products); they've also been damned as being stupid(they are actually considered to be the 4th most intelligent type of mammal/animal, well should be 5th as humans are also mammals/animals).
Being pro-smoking is pretty ghastly given that so many people have died early from smoking, and the anti-breastfeeding issue is absolutely disgraceful, and so anti-WP let alone anti-palaeo/anti-rawpalaeo.
Apologies re the grainfeeding mention on my part, but refuse from orange-juice products is hardly good either.
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I have a theory that salt is needed more by ruminants and vegetable eaters than carnivores. The animal fat might take the place of drinking as much water and many fats already have lots of minerals. When drinking a lot of water and eating produce containing a lot of water I think then the salt probably becomes more necessary. That's my theory as of late.
Watercure2.com is a very interesting site when considering the importance of salt TOD.
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Fascinating stuff. Satya has always been a font of information. Thanks for taking the time to investigate and share, Tyler. Your willingness to actually do some research and provide evidence instead of just embrace the latest whim of a guru is so rare these days. It seems like most folks just want to regurgitate soundbites that fit their predetermined agenda without having to put any effort into truly investigating anything. Of course, just because Sally Fallon acted poorly on grassfed cattle doesn't necessarily mean that she's utterly wrong on anything to do with salt, but it does raise some questions.
You're not saying that people with salt deficiencies that have been confirmed with testing should be afraid of adding unprocessed sea salt to their food, as a temporary therapeutic measure, are you?
I have no dog in the hunt, other than that a chiropractor did a urinalysis on me that found a supposed salt deficiency (I'm skeptical of most chiropractors, so I'm not saying that the test was necessarily valid) and I've never noticed any harm from unprocessed sea salt, but I do wonder whether salt has been excessively demonized by the popular media in recent decades. Chris Kresser offers an alternative non-WAPF opinion on the subject in a some recent blog posts:
http://chriskresser.com/shaking-up-the-salt-myth-the-human-need-for-salt (http://chriskresser.com/shaking-up-the-salt-myth-the-human-need-for-salt)
http://chriskresser.com/shaking-up-the-salt-myth-when-salt-reduction-may-be-warranted (http://chriskresser.com/shaking-up-the-salt-myth-when-salt-reduction-may-be-warranted)
http://healthybabycode.com/why-low-salt-diets-are-dangerous-during-pregnancy (http://healthybabycode.com/why-low-salt-diets-are-dangerous-during-pregnancy)
That's not to say that Chris is necessarily right, just that there are different opinions from reasonable folks on the subject, which I haven't yet researched thoroughly myself.
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fwiw, if i have anything to do with the ethics tangent, i didn't mean to (but if the shoe fits!) i said it 'reads like' she is being paid by salt companies because it has that persuasive vibe instead of an honest one. i could care less whether she writes about salt being great or terrible. i know how i feel when i eat it, and that's what i trust.
i don't know why you took offense TOTD.... why not just eat a reputable brand and see how you feel and make your own decision?... some people seem to feel they need and do well with it while others don't.
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fascinating tyler, however I have no idea how bad the orange pulp and rind would be to the cows. definitely not as bad grain.
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cows are designed for leaves and grass. A small amount might not be an issue but I cannot imagine a diet of it would be good.
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Not just leaves, grass and no salt. I've seen cows with plenty of greenery around go "ape" over fruit. They quickly suck whole fruits down their throats and spit out the pits right away. They can eat fruit better than I can. I didn't feed them oranges, just because I didn't have oranges when I was with the cows. I fed them fruit that grew in their fields.
I had some swelling since my period last month. It wasn't going down. I don't normally use salt. I don't recommend it, as I do not know why the salt got rid of the swelling. About two weeks ago I got a craving for salt. I ate almost pure salt, a lot, at one sitting! The next morning? All my swelling was gone. The swelling has not come back yet. I have not repeated the salt. I know what I did is not Weston Price. It was more like instinct? Or craving.
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Watercure2.com is interesting when it comes to salt. Zi - according to that if you don't have salt you can't absorb water into the cells and that's where swelling comes from.
Al - I meant eating greenery seems to make animals and people want/need salt in my little experience.
Zi - that's so cool that cows like fruit! Never new that.
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Watercure2.com is interesting when it comes to salt. Zi - according to that if you don't have salt you can't absorb water into the cells and that's where swelling comes from.
Zi - that's so cool that cows like fruit! Never new that.
Thanks D. I think I had that book over a decade ago.
Yep. Maybe green is better for cows. They liked everything I gave them, except flour products (which I only had possession of a couple of times back then), but fruit and vegetables the best.
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Not just leaves, grass and no salt. I've seen cows with plenty of greenery around go "ape" over fruit. They quickly suck whole fruits down their throats and spit out the pits right away. They can eat fruit better than I can. I didn't feed them oranges, just because I didn't have oranges when I was with the cows. I fed them fruit that grew in their fields.
I had some swelling since my period last month. It wasn't going down. I don't normally use salt. I don't recommend it, as I do not know why the salt got rid of the swelling. About two weeks ago I got a craving for salt. I ate almost pure salt, a lot, at one sitting! The next morning? All my swelling was gone. The swelling has not come back yet. I have not repeated the salt. I know what I did is not Weston Price. It was more like instinct? Or craving.
Lots of great info there regarding cow diet and salt. very interesting about your swelling going down. definitly gonna experiment with some himalayan salt after hearing that.