Author Topic: Hello! I have Newbie questions...  (Read 7007 times)

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Offline primavera

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Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« on: July 04, 2009, 04:06:47 am »
Hi everyone!  I stumbled on RAF after experimenting for a month with a raw vegan diet (and finding it very disappointing).  After reading half the threads on this forum (great forum by the way! *thumbs up), I've decided to go cold turkey into Raw Paleo.  At first I thought of trying the zero carb approach, but seeing as I don't have either Inuit or Northern European in me, I doubt it'd work for me.  So I'm going to do very low carb and IF.  I need a few clarifications:

I'm going to start with beef only.  Nutrition-wise, is it necessary to eat a variety of different types of meat?  If it's simply for the sake of variety, I'd rather not.  I remember reading a post by Lex saying beef has a profile closer to what we evolved on. 

Meat/Organ ratio and protein/fat ratio.  What types of cuts and organs, and in what ratio, should I eat to get the appropriate amounts of protein, fat, and nutrients?  I estimate I'd eat 1-1.5 lbs of raw beef a day. 

The storage of meat/organs.  I will have to order from an online supplier.  Is it best to order chilled or frozen?  If I order chilled, for how long can I keep it in the fridge?  I would have to order a large amount, but for how long can I store it before the nutritional value becomes less than desirable?

Fruits and vegetables.  Apparently berries are good.  Is frozen alright?  What other fruits/vegetables are wild or closely resemble the ones we originally ate?

Intermittent fasting.  Ok, so I do believe that taking breaks from meat is the natural order of things.  However fruit is easier to obtain, so wouldn't Paleolithic peoples continue eating fruit in between hunts?  Also, how often should I fast?  I was thinking two days a week.

Thanks for reading!  I appreciate all the help I can get!  :)



Offline primavera

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2009, 04:18:12 am »
Ah yes, I also want to know what companies sell high quality raw dog food?  I'd like to get my three dogs on their proper diet, too.   :P

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2009, 04:52:28 am »
Intermittent fasting.  Ok, so I do believe that taking breaks from meat is the natural order of things.  However fruit is easier to obtain, so wouldn't Paleolithic peoples continue eating fruit in between hunts?  Also, how often should I fast?  I was thinking two days a week.

Intermittent fasting would be forced upon us if we were in the wild.  When food started to run out, we'd have nothing to eat until we made our next kill which could be hours or days depending on the availablily of game etc.  There is nothing magic or noble about intermittent fasting.  It is the natural order for all wild animals where their next meal depends on their skill and the availablilty of food.  What is un-natural is eating 3 meals per day by the clock.

What makes you think that fruit is easy to obtain.  In any place but the tropics, wild fruits are highly seasonal and only available for maybe 2 to 3 months out of the year.  There would also be steep competition for fruits and berries from birds.  Also, wild fruits are small, usually tart to down right sour, and mostly seed.  Just compare a crabapple which is full of seeds and about the size of your thumb with a nice Red Delicious, or Granny Smith apple - no comparison.  All those fruits and nice fleshy veggies you see in the supermarket have very little relationship to what our paleo ancestors had available to them.  For veggies, go out to the front lawn and dig up a dandylion.  The roots and leaves are edible but you will find them bitter and stringy. Compare the dandylion root with today's carrots and the leaves to todays lettuce. This is what real wild veggies are all about.

I'm certainly not telling you not to eat fruits and veggies if that is your choice.  Just don't delude yourself into thinking that the stuff in the supermarket even remotely resmebles paleo.  Or that because it is available to us all year around in large quantities that this would be true if you were forced to live off the land in the wild - even today.  I've tried living off the land in the foothills of California.  There are berries and grapes and plums.  The berries are in dense bramble thickets that you can barely get near without gloves and lots of protection, have far more seeds than juice, and the birds wipe them out before they become ripe.  The grapes are about the size of a small pea, mostly seed, and very sour even when ripe.  It would take a good sized basket of them to equal one large bunch of supermarket grapes.  Wild plums are the size of your thumb and are a very large seed covered with about 1/32 inch (1mm) of flesh - if that much.  The skin is thick and tough and what little flesh there is sticks to the seed like glue.  About the best you can do is chew the skin and suck a little tart flavor out of the flesh.

Your idea that copious fruits would have been available to paleo man in most of the world is more dream than reality.

As for pet food, slankers sells good pet food for dogs and cats for about $2 per lb.  http://texasgrassfedbeef.com/  You'll find a listing for Pet Food down the left side menu.  Also, just Google BARF and you should get many hits.  BARF stands for Biologically Appropriate Raw Food and there are many providers.  You just pays your money and takes your choice.....

Lex
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 05:07:26 am by lex_rooker »

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2009, 06:41:08 am »
If you can get good fat grass fed beef with the innards, that would be a good start to experiment on.  If you are eating 1 fruit a day like aajonus vonderplanitz, better make it organic and local and not sugar bombs.  Some people have good success with juicing a celery + parsley base then adding some other organic veggies.
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Offline primavera

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2009, 08:14:46 am »
Lex!  Thanks for replying.

Intermittent fasting would be forced upon us if we were in the wild.  When food started to run out, we'd have nothing to eat until we made our next kill which could be hours or days depending on the availability of game etc.  There is nothing magic or noble about intermittent fasting.  It is the natural order for all wild animals where their next meal depends on their skill and the availability of food.  What is un-natural is eating 3 meals per day by the clock.


I wholly agree it's unnatural to eat so frequently.  But is 2 full days of fasting a week enough?  I never thought there was anything noble about fasting, just the natural order. 

What makes you think that fruit is easy to obtain.  In any place but the tropics, wild fruits are highly seasonal and only available for maybe 2 to 3 months out of the year.  There would also be steep competition for fruits and berries from birds.  Also, wild fruits are small, usually tart to down right sour, and mostly seed.  Just compare a crabapple which is full of seeds and about the size of your thumb with a nice Red Delicious, or Granny Smith apple - no comparison.  All those fruits and nice fleshy veggies you see in the supermarket have very little relationship to what our paleo ancestors had available to them.  For veggies, go out to the front lawn and dig up a dandylion.  The roots and leaves are edible but you will find them bitter and stringy. Compare the dandylion root with today's carrots and the leaves to todays lettuce. This is what real wild veggies are all about.

I'm certainly not telling you not to eat fruits and veggies if that is your choice.  Just don't delude yourself into thinking that the stuff in the supermarket even remotely resmebles paleo.  Or that because it is available to us all year around in large quantities that this would be true if you were forced to live off the land in the wild - even today.  I've tried living off the land in the foothills of California.  There are berries and grapes and plums.  The berries are in dense bramble thickets that you can barely get near without gloves and lots of protection, have far more seeds than juice, and the birds wipe them out before they become ripe.  The grapes are about the size of a small pea, mostly seed, and very sour even when ripe.  It would take a good sized basket of them to equal one large bunch of supermarket grapes.  Wild plums are the size of your thumb and are a very large seed covered with about 1/32 inch (1mm) of flesh - if that much.  The skin is thick and tough and what little flesh there is sticks to the seed like glue.  About the best you can do is chew the skin and suck a little tart flavor out of the flesh.

Your idea that copious fruits would have been available to paleo man in most of the world is more dream than reality.


I see, I see.  What you're saying is making a lot of sense.  Alright, but however unsavory, would Paleos still be eating those when available?  And what about peoples who lived in the tropical areas?  Would fruit have made a portion of their diet (however small, perhaps in between kills)?  I'm just trying to find a reason why so many people seem to thrive on very low carb that can't seem to adapt to zero carb, and a relative few function best on zero carb.  My own ancestors come from a tropical area.

Thanks!

Offline primavera

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2009, 09:32:28 am »
Hi goodsamaritan!  When you say not sugar bombs, would that mean they would taste less sweet? 

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2009, 10:03:30 am »
I wholly agree it's unnatural to eat so frequently.  But is 2 full days of fasting a week enough?  I never thought there was anything noble about fasting, just the natural order. 

Why would you believe that any fasting is necessary at all.  We only fasted when forced to do so.   I don't think anyone would find just not eating - especially when you are hungry - "natural".  I just eat when I'm hungry and then eat until I'm satisfied.  Most of the time I'm only hungry once per day, but on occasion I'll eat twice, especially when I've been physically working hard, and once in a while I'll get busy and forget to eat.  I NEVER do intermittent fast on purpose or a schedule.  The amount of IF I do is very small, maybe a half dozen times per year at most and then I only miss one meal which usually means just one day.

I see, I see.  What you're saying is making a lot of sense.  Alright, but however unsavory, would Paleos still be eating those when available?  And what about peoples who lived in the tropical areas?  Would fruit have made a portion of their diet (however small, perhaps in between kills)?  I'm just trying to find a reason why so many people seem to thrive on very low carb that can't seem to adapt to zero carb, and a relative few function best on zero carb.  My own ancestors come from a tropical area.

The human species started and matured in the African Plains.  All of us started from the base of a Top Level Carnivore.  As we migrated to other areas of the world and large game became scarce we made do with whatever foods were available.  This does not mean that these are our best foods.  We've been eating grains and other carbs as a significant part of our diet for over 10,000 years yet this still causes us to suffer most of the degenerative and auto immune diseases that are so common today.

10,000 to 50,000 years is not enough time to change our fundamental DNA makeup and therefore our nutritional needs are still those of our paleo ancestors from 500,000 to 2 million years ago.  What has changed is that as people migrated to different regions where our normal food was scarce and we started to eat regionally available carbohydrates to survive, those that couldn't tolerate the new foods in the area were selected out of the population (they die without reproducing an abundance of offspring).  Those that tolerated the food better survived to build communities that did well on the new foods.  This does not mean that their DNA and nutritional requirements changed, only that they tolerated the new foods better than those that didn't survive.  In the tropics it was fruit, in the middle east it was grains, in Europe it was dairy, in the far east it was rice.  You can easily see this in the fact that almost all Europeans can eat dairy with no problem (those that couldn't tolerate it were selected out of the population many generations ago) but most Asians are allergic to dairy because dairy is a brand new addition to their diet.  The same goes for people of middle eastern decent do OK on wheat as they started eating wheat thousands of years ago, but many Europeans are gluten intolerant as this is a relatively new addition to the European diet.

YOUR ancestors (like mine), during the time when our DNA was formed and therefore our proper diet, came from Africa.  A few thousand years of eating fruit in the tropics, dairy in Europe, or grains in the Middle East doesn't change this fact. You see, even those of us who can tolerate these new foods (new meaning in the last 10,000 to 50,000 years) still suffer from degenerative diseases caused by eating these foods long term.  If our DNA had actually changed, then this would not happen.

Our best food is still red grass fed meat.  This is the closest we can come to the foods we evolved to eat.  No one is allergic to meat, just plant foods.  

I do believe that we did eat some fruits in the late summer/early fall when they were in season and this caused us to put on weight to prepare us for the lean winter months.  I think our bodies respond to carbs the way they do just for this purpose.  However, fruits in our natural wild environment were self limiting as there was much competition for them and they were only available for a very short time during the year (except as you point out, in the tropics). In our modern society, we've turned something that was supposed to be limited in quantity into the foundation of our everyday diet and this has not served us well.

Another interesting observation:  Samoans are known for a very large (almost obese) body type.  If you stop feeding them their "traditional" diet of tropical fruits and carbs and feed them a diet of mostly red meat and fat, they slim right down.  Why would this happen if their DNA had adapted to fruit as their best diet?  The truth is, they haven't adapted much at all and suffer the consequences of eating such a diet rich in carbs.

It is a free country and you get to eat whatever you want.  You may eat as much fruit as you want whenever you want but for humans it is a second rate food, and an excess will likely cause health issues over the long term.

Now I've been on my soap box yelling a lot and you're going to say, "But what should I eat then?"  I suppose I owe you an answer to that question.  It is clear that we ate some carbs but they were limited.  Our goal should be to make our modern diet similar.  Fruits and veggies (though nothing like paleo) are available all year around, we should just do our best to limit them to a very small amount and only eat those that are in season in the area where we live.  Now here's my specific dietary advice:

Eat one or two meals per day consisting of meat and fat until you are fully satisfied.  I also suggest red grass fed meats make up most of your meals but occasional chicken, pork, fish, and eggs, though not as good (in my estimation) as red meats shouldn't cause much of a problem - they just don't have the best nutritional profile.

Next, drink water as your only beverage.  Fruit juices, coffee, tea, soda, and dairy is not what we evolved to drink.  Drink whenever you are thirsty and drink until you are satisfied - even during meals.  Thirst is you body telling you it needs water.  Don't ignore basic biological drives like thirst based on some guru's say so (and don't drink when you aren't thirsty either).  Thirst and hunger have been sufficient to get us this far for many millions of years.  You don't need made up schedules or amounts - just satisfy hunger and thirst and you'll do fine.

Lastly, if you decide to include carbs in your diet limit them to a very small amount, and only eat fresh fruits and veggies, and then only the ones currently in season in your local area.  How do you limit them?  Limit carb intake to EITHER one small piece of fruit (1/2 to 1 cup max) OR a small green salad, (but not both) each day eaten as a snack completely separate from your meat meals.

Avoid all grains, nuts, seeds, dairy, beans, legumes, starchy root vegetables, and all plant based oils.

Well that's it.  You are free to believe what I say or not.  You can disagree with me and you won't hurt my feelings at all.  I can say that whatever you choose to do will determine your long term results.  You see, our choices in life do have consequences - some wonderful, others less than optimum.

Lex
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 11:34:15 am by lex_rooker »

Offline van

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2009, 10:39:25 am »
 Lex hi.  Once again,  appreciate you taking time to help another.    The Samoans, my guess is that like many, they could eat all the fruit they wanted and not get fat if it were not for the cooked grain starches, and taro, etc.  Although I can remember years ago when starting how I would gorge on Cheramoyas and meat.  I never got fat, but I did gain, something that is most hard for me.  But I agree, not very healthy, especially for the long run.

Offline primavera

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2009, 11:33:30 am »
Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out, Lex.  I appreciate it.  I needed an Anthropology lesson.  I'm very interested in knowing the absolute truth (or close as possible).  Ah, I'm so excited to start!  My family is using me as a guinea pig, hee hee! 

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2009, 03:06:00 pm »
Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out, Lex.  I appreciate it.  I needed an Anthropology lesson.  I'm very interested in knowing the absolute truth (or close as possible).  Ah, I'm so excited to start!  My family is using me as a guinea pig, hee hee! 

Primavera,
When you find the 'absolute truth' will you please pass it along to me?  I'd really be interested in knowing it myself.  All I've got is a little book learnin', some personal experience, and an over active imagination!  ;D

Lex

Offline primavera

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2009, 03:34:39 pm »
haha, you bet!

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2009, 09:52:44 pm »
Hi goodsamaritan!  When you say not sugar bombs, would that mean they would taste less sweet? 

The organic / wild fruits are not sugar bombs.  The intensively farmed are mostly sugar bombs. 

For example, most fruits in my country are merely planted and then the farmer just stands watch to see that nobody steals the fruits.

The intensively farmed fruits receive lots of pesticides or smoking or genetic modifications to come up with a market sweet man made creation.

The hunter gathering traditions of our Aetas in the mountains use fruit to stave off thirst and hunger while they hunt / set traps for their animals.

Aajonus Vonderplanitz recommends just 1 fruit per day.

You have to self experiment and continuously adjust, listen to your body.  I personally prefer red meat of beef.  Although I have yet to taste the kind of beef Lex is getting.  Maybe if Lex's online store shipped to Manila I can compare his US beef to my Philippine beef.

I am against just plain water... the kind that we artificially get from the faucet, from reverse osmosis or from the distiller... I will agree with fresh and structured spring water... I've tasted that... absolutely refreshing.  I want structured water, squeeze a lemon or orange in it.  Or better yet, open a coconut, cut open a watermelon, or blender a cucumber and add avocados Aajonus style.  Aajonus Vonderplanitz and Dr. Henry Bieler are both anti plain water... get it from food.

You will notice there are many variants in raw paleo implementation... you've got to experiment and see what works for you with what is available in your locale.

I view what we are doing is not just idealizing what paleo people did, but at the same time experimenting with best practices and sharing with others what works best for us so we all learn. 
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Offline Josh

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2009, 08:28:15 pm »
GS, I feel this could be misleading. Surely there's little difference in the amount of sugars in the same type organic and non organic fruit, what matters in this respect is the type of fruit e.g. berries vs bananas, and therefore 'bang for the buck' of nutrients vs sugar if you believe you need nutrients from fruit.

Similarly with wild fruits - some original fruits have little sugar e.g. crab apples but some e.g. wild berries contain similar levels to farmed.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 03:44:00 pm »
I doubt it. I mean wild strawberries for example have way less sugar-content than the domesticated variety. And it's the same pretty much across the board.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 06:34:16 pm »
I think it depends...blueberries seem to be the same. I think my main point still stands though...just because a fruits not intensively farmed doesn't mean it's much better for sugar.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Hello! I have Newbie questions...
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 12:10:23 am »
I doubt it. I mean wild strawberries for example have way less sugar-content than the domesticated variety. And it's the same pretty much across the board.

I find wild strawberries sweeter than supermarket ones. Most heirloom varieties are sweeter too. The modern strawberries seem to me to be bred for size not sugar content. Other fruits, though, are undeniably sweeter than their wild origins.

 

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