Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: SteakNchop on December 17, 2010, 02:27:23 am
-
Well, I've been a carnivore (not raw yet, but I'll get there eventually) for the past month or two and I was wondering something. When you eat meats that have a good amount of carbs such as liver, do you think the carbs affect you? I read from some people that carbs in meats don't matter at all, but then I see some people saying they will probably make you gain some weight. I searched this but I couldn't find it, so I was wondering what the thought is here.
-
Well those RZCers who've eaten raw animal foods with carbs in them like raw liver, raw mussels etc., have generally said they were fine with them, and when they mention suffering from plant-foods, they also generally mention suffering from all kinds of other plant nutrients, even plant-based raw fats like in avocadoes. This leads me to think that the issue of carbs is irrelevant, and that these people simply have issues with every plant-based nutrient, rather than just a sensitivity towards carbs.
-
Well those RZCers who've eaten raw animal foods with carbs in them like raw liver, raw mussels etc., have generally said they were fine with them, and when they mention suffering from plant-foods, they also generally mention suffering from all kinds of other plant nutrients, even plant-based raw fats like in avocadoes. This leads me to think that the issue of carbs is irrelevant, and that these people simply have issues with every plant-based nutrient, rather than just a sensitivity towards carbs.
That's interesting. Might be the trouble digesting plant foods after not eating them for quite some time. I wonder how someone would do if they ate enough animal carbs to have a carbohydrate burning metabolism.
-
I wonder how someone would do if they ate enough animal carbs to have a carbohydrate burning metabolism.
I know people who swear by the raw milk cure diet, 100% raw milk and no other food. They do it for months, some even for a couple of years. I'm sure milk doesn't have enough fat in it that they would only burn fat.
My cat sometimes only eats chicken liver, beef liver and calves liver for days. I like it when she does that, as she eats well then and is very happy. When she eats other foods she won't eat very much, and is a little more difficult to deal with. I wonder if cats can burn carbs. I know humans' and cats' metabolisms are different, more different than cats and dogs I guess.
I don't know how a human would do on an all liver and mussels diet. I hate eating raw mussels anyway, so I can't even imagine what my metabolism would be. What other animal foods have significant quantities of carbs?
when they mention suffering from plant-foods, they also generally mention suffering from all kinds of other plant nutrients, even plant-based raw fats like in avocadoes. This leads me to think that the issue of carbs is irrelevant, and that these people simply have issues with every plant-based nutrient, rather than just a sensitivity towards carbs.
This is why I still toy with the idea of ZC. I don't do well with avocados, nor coconuts. I don't take sun well, so do better with vit D foods. I don't do well without animal based vit A foods. Veg sources don't cut it. The fiber of a little bit of green smoothie or many other sources mess me up from slightly uncomfortable plugged up and readying to exit this body quickly. Animal foods just do better for everything, as long as they're raw. If they're cooked, for the most part plant foods are much better for me.
-
A pure raw milk diet does seem pretty interesting. I mean, that was (or was supposed to be) our diet from when we were born until we were ready to eat food.
-
I know people who swear by the raw milk cure diet, 100% raw milk and no other food. They do it for months, some even for a couple of years.
Good luck if you're lactose intolerent l)
-
A pure raw milk diet does seem pretty interesting. I mean, that was (or was supposed to be) our diet from when we were born until we were ready to eat food.
Raw cows' milk is completely different from raw human milk. Human milk is designed to be consumed by humans so has all the right nutrients in the right ratios, which cows' milk decidedly doesn't.
-
Animal foods just do better for everything, as long as they're raw. If they're cooked, for the most part plant foods are much better for me.
Same here. I far prefer raw plant foods to cooked animal foods.
-
Yea I am puzzled by how some can run on pure dairy for a long time. Dairy makes me tired, fat, hungry, but despite all this makes me want it more. This is explained it terms opioid receptors being overstimulated by the dairy presence. As for concern about carbs from meat, I would just skip eggs and seafood. Organs are great. Liver is still one the most compact foods on earth for man. Can't be that bad... I usually swallow it like a pill and keep loosing weight like on the that show " the biggest looser", but only without the exercise. As for plants, currently I can't stand nor tolerate them, and so would pick cooked meat over it any day.
-
Same here. I far prefer raw plant foods to cooked animal foods.
So you'd rather go vegan then eat cooked animal foods? Lets say you had to pick either of the two, raw vegan or cooked paleo, to eat for a long time I mean....would you choose raw vegan?
-
So you'd rather go vegan then eat cooked animal foods? Lets say you had to pick either of the two, raw vegan or cooked paleo, to eat for a long time I mean....would you choose raw vegan?
I might be tempted to raw vegan. There are a lot of raw vegan community supports where I live. Only problem is, I've done it before extensively. It was not as sustainable nutritionally as RVAF. Cooked vegan makes me lethargic, nervous and mucusy. I might be tempted to cooked 0Carb. I would hope it could work for six months. I've never even done it for more than several days. I'm thinking though that if I got used to it, maybe I could live with it more healthfully. Raw VAF is easier. I'm so glad it exists.
I heard the raw milk diet+raw liver is sustainable longer than the milk alone, maybe to do with the iron's availability? I tried a milk liver smoothie, just those two ingredients. It didn't taste good. I know people who drink it that way and seem to like it. Doctored up with other ingredients: kelp, lemon, unheated honey, French herbs, garlic clove etc it can taste good. I can't imagine drinking it more than a few days in a row. I'd rather eat my meat plain, and raw milk with raw egg.
-
I might be tempted to raw vegan. There are a lot of raw vegan community supports where I live. Only problem is, I've done it before extensively. It was not as sustainable nutritionally as RVAF. Cooked vegan makes me lethargic, nervous and mucusy. I might be tempted to cooked 0Carb. I would hope it could work for six months. I've never even done it for more than several days. I'm thinking though that if I got used to it, maybe I could live with it more healthfully. Raw VAF is easier. I'm so glad it exists.
I heard the raw milk diet+raw liver is sustainable longer than the milk alone, maybe to do with the iron's availability? I tried a milk liver smoothie, just those two ingredients. It didn't taste good. I know people who drink it that way and seem to like it. Doctored up with other ingredients: kelp, lemon, unheated honey, French herbs, garlic clove etc it can taste good. I can't imagine drinking it more than a few days in a row. I'd rather eat my meat plain, and raw milk with raw egg.
Milk and liver smoothies? -v
-
So you'd rather go vegan then eat cooked animal foods? Lets say you had to pick either of the two, raw vegan or cooked paleo, to eat for a long time I mean....would you choose raw vegan?
Of course. Judging from many dietary experiments pre-RPD, I very quickly deteriorated on a diet rich in cooked animal foods, but took much longer to get issues with a raw vegan diet. A raw vegan diet meant that I avoided some minor issues, and became quite lean, though it did not solve my major problems pre-rpd diet. What made me eventually quit raw vegan/fruitarian diets was more to do with getting massive hunger-pangs and eating ridiculously high daily amounts of raw plant foods.
* Of course, a really long stint of raw vegan(5 years plus) might start getting nasty, but raw vegans can use artificial B12 supplements and the like re deficiencies.
-
So you'd rather go vegan then eat cooked animal foods? Lets say you had to pick either of the two, raw vegan or cooked paleo, to eat for a long time I mean....would you choose raw vegan?
In my case I would choose cooked paleo than raw vegan, definitely.
I don't imagine eating only plants.
When it comes to carb containing meats I think that horse meat has got some amount of carbs (it's a little bit sweet)
-
Good luck if you're lactose intolerent l)
But raw milk has that enzyme to break it down by itself and AV said there are no lactose intolerent people but casein in your liver from the old processed diary?????
-
But raw milk has that enzyme to break it down by itself and AV said there are no lactose intolerent people but casein in your liver from the old processed diary?????
AV is a bloody fool as regards his raw dairy stance. He has made similiar moronic, utterly false, claims such as the notion that mixing raw honey with raw milk makes it OK to consume for those with lactose-intolerance and so on. The fact is, my own allergies towards raw dairy have stayed the same despite being almost a decade into going rawpalaeo, so I have good reason to doubt this mindless Aajonism.
-
AV is a bloody fool as regards his raw dairy stance. He has made similiar moronic, utterly false, claims such as the notion that mixing raw honey with raw milk makes it OK to consume for those with lactose-intolerance and so on. The fact is, my own allergies towards raw dairy have stayed the same despite being almost a decade into going rawpalaeo, so I have good reason to doubt this mindless Aajonism.
Exactly.First of all milk is designed to be baby food ONLY.Look at the animal world.Once they are weaned,do you see any of them go back to their mothers for milk?No
Of course,in our society,we will bottle it up and sell it as the healthiest product in the world for everybody.One of the biggest dietary scams ever.Raw or otherwise.This is one of the reasons I'm not the biggest AV fan.Even though I've met him and he had a positive influence on me,his salesmanship of dairy and honey(which are both sweet as heck by the way) turned me in a different direction.
-
There is one positive thing one might say re AV as regards his raw dairy stance. From his point of view, most people have an unreasonable, near-hysterical, media-inspired, phobia towards raw meats and it takes quite some time for them to get used to the idea of eating them. So, it pays for him to especially promote those raw foods which SAD-eaters have no problems at all with re taste such as raw dairy, raw honey, raw coconut cream and raw nuts. The only exception to the above is raw veggie-juice, which tastes foul by itself, but AV gets around that by telling his Primal Dieters to sweeten the stuff with lots of raw honey or raw cream.
-
If AV would have started with promoting raw meat,he probably would have starved to death ;)
TD,your point is old news.I don't see how what he did for dairy and honey as a "positive" thing.
Are you kidding me?I'm lactose intolerant and it made me worse(obvious now, but I tried to listen to his advice).Also,I've had candida issues.Raw honey was also not good for me.Anything high sugar is not good for me.Get the point? Btw,I'm not the only one who has problems with dairy and honey(again,obviously).
Think about it.So many people,including some on this forum are drawn towards something sweet like milk and honey....it's an easy sell -d
-
IMO honey is healthy when consumed in moderate amounts, from time to time.
I realized that when I eat it this way I feel good.
When I start eating it every day and in greater amounts I feel rather bad.
It's an addictive food so must be taken with caution. :)
But I agree that it's not for everybody. Simalarly is with alkohol ;)
-
If AV would have started with promoting raw meat,he probably would have starved to death ;)
TD,your point is old news.I don't see how what he did for dairy and honey as a "positive" thing.
Are you kidding me?I'm lactose intolerant and it made me worse(obvious now, but I tried to listen to his advice).Also,I've had candida issues.Raw honey was also not good for me.Anything high sugar is not good for me.Get the point? Btw,I'm not the only one who has problems with dairy and honey(again,obviously).
Think about it.So many people,including some on this forum are drawn towards something sweet like milk and honey....it's an easy sell -d
Yes, I know. I used to hate AV's guts because I had wasted 6 really hellish months of my life consuming lots of raw dairy in 1 form or another, and because of all the old wives' tales I had been told re mixing raw honey with raw dairy etc. However, the truth is that, when I was at a very, very low ebb in my life, many years ago, I searched the Internet for many, many hours in order to find just 1 guru who advocated raw meats and gave some detailed advice re them. By that stage, I had tried practically every major dietary combination(other than macrobiotics, perhaps?) out there, and only RVAF diets were left - but I was so scared out of my wits by the whole media b*ll about mythical food-poisoning dangers of raw meats that I didn't have the confidence to try a RVAF diet on my own. The only other raw guru online I had managed to find and read a little about was GCB, but he had recommended against raw meats, at one point, so was not helpful as I did not want to go raw vegan again. So, if I had never heard of AV, I would never have eventually gotten the idea of going rawpalaeo, so I am very grateful to him for showing me a part of the way to proper health, even if he got it wrong on a number of things.
-
...When I start eating it every day and in greater amounts I feel rather bad.
It's an addictive food so must be taken with caution. :)
But I agree that it's not for everybody. Simalarly is with alkohol ;)
I recently got a raw honey mixed with a lot of bee polen, it has almost a neon yellow-tangerine color and intensely sweet but also sour! Its sick!
What is happening to our favorite black afro guy? O0 I hope he doesn't go the Michael Jackson route.
Of course. Judging from many dietary experiments pre-RPD, I very quickly deteriorated on a diet rich in cooked animal foods, but took much longer to get issues with a raw vegan diet....
* Of course, a really long stint of raw vegan(5 years plus) might start getting nasty, but raw vegans can use artificial B12 supplements and the like re deficiencies.
For me 5 days plus, of raw vegan will start to get really nasty :P
That is interesting how different we are, I can be sustained for at least a year by having fatty grilled steaks and some kind of raw plant material as a side food. Add starch to that I can live happily like that for life.
However with raw vegan I will deteriorate, first of all i'll get skinny with a distended stomach, be always cold and tired, be always hungry and always try and think of what raw plant to consume next, in the end loosing my mind, consuming my soul and becoming an evil bitch.
I could do it for a little while if I gorge on avocados and coconuts but only for a short stretch.
In my case I would choose cooked paleo than raw vegan, definitely.
I don't imagine eating only plants.
Me either, for me raw meat is like "the icing of the cake" to cooked meat. What is essential is that there is meat, how its prepared is a bonus element. Raw meat is invigorating, cooked meat is insanely filling, but I never overcook it anyway, most of the time if I do cook the meat I have to re-cook it for my family. Like last time I was making everyone burger patties, I make mine so inside the ground beef is warm but pink and raw, and for them its gotta be brown all the way through ???
-
Me either, for me raw meat is like "the icing of the cake" to cooked meat. What is essential is that there is meat, how its prepared is a bonus element.
"The icing of the cake" - excellent description :)
Once on a social meeting there were only raw veggies available - I ate a lot of them and felt like I ate a paper.
Eating too many fruits results in bad digestion.
So the only answer is MEAT AND FAT - it's like an oxygen for me
-
The only other raw guru online I had managed to find and read a little about was GCB, but he had recommended against raw meats, at one point, so was not helpful as I did not want to go raw vegan again.
Where did you find that ? I’m not aware that he did so. AFAIK he only warned about eating too much meat (of domesticated mammals, but perhaps he didn’t make that clear enough). Anyhow, he always ate meat and couldn’t be more far away from vegans.
-
I searched the Internet for many, many hours in order to find just 1 guru I was so scared out of my wits by the whole media b*ll about mythical food-poisoning dangers of raw meats that I didn't have the confidence to try a RVAF diet on my own. The only other raw guru online I had managed to find and read a little about was GCB
What's wrong with studying Price/Pottenger? They were around long before AV.AV mentions Pottenger's cats quite frequently to prove his points.
-
Where did you find that ? I’m not aware that he did so. AFAIK he only warned about eating too much meat (of domesticated mammals, but perhaps he didn’t make that clear enough). Anyhow, he always ate meat and couldn’t be more far away from vegans.
Well, I only knew of very few Instincto references in English at the time, so I had just read stuff about GCB recommending against raw meat because of his wife's issues, though I much later heard from another frenchman that there were other reasons for her illness. I suppose I had also read beyondveg.com's site which more or less claimed that Instinctos depended too much on consumption of sweet fruits. Of course that site is admittedly fanatically anti-raw.
-
What's wrong with studying Price/Pottenger? They were around long before AV.AV mentions Pottenger's cats quite frequently to prove his points.
I had noticed that Pottenger had not done his experiment properly - he should have done a trial comparing cats fed on 100 percent raw meats to those other cats fed on raw dairy/cod liver oil. So I thought that experiment was a bit flawed.
As for Weston Price, I immediately was turned off by him re all those mentions of primitive, supposedly saintly, tribes living in splendid isolation from the rest of us mere mortals. I was already aware that the Noble Savage theory was utter rubbish, given past historical examples, and realised that I needed some more solid theories. Besides, Price was recommending lots of cooked meats with only a little emphasis on raw meats, and cooked meats had ruined my life up to that point.
AV on the other hand, referred to some useful scientific studies and was far more vehement on the raw aspect so I was prepared to ignore his 1 or 2 noble-savage-related notions re Native-American Chieftains and coyotes. Also, AV had made some side references to the hygiene hypothesis theory and heat-created toxins in cooked foods, and subsequent search of relevant studies confirmed what AV had said.
-
Well, I've been a carnivore (not raw yet, but I'll get there eventually) for the past month or two and I was wondering something. When you eat meats that have a good amount of carbs such as liver, do you think the carbs affect you? I read from some people that carbs in meats don't matter at all, but then I see some people saying they will probably make you gain some weight. I searched this but I couldn't find it, so I was wondering what the thought is here.
I haven't noticed any problems from liver or eggs. Liver at times actually gives me a boost. I haven't found any plant sources of carbs that I handle well, though small amounts of low-carb fruits don't bother me that much. I also don't handle raw honey or milk well, for whatever reason.
Well those RZCers who've eaten raw animal foods with carbs in them like raw liver, raw mussels etc., have generally said they were fine with them, and when they mention suffering from plant-foods, they also generally mention suffering from all kinds of other plant nutrients, even plant-based raw fats like in avocados. This leads me to think that the issue of carbs is irrelevant, and that these people simply have issues with every plant-based nutrient, rather than just a sensitivity towards carbs.
I do get mild gas from avocados, but some veggies don't bother me noticeably, like young greens, broccoli heads, radishes, ginger, carrots, etc. They tend to be veggies that are relatively low in carbs, so the carb aspect could well be a problem for me. Besides, even if they're not a problem for me, carbohydrate intolerance is a recognized clinical diagnosis (http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec02/ch017/ch017c.html) as is fructose intolerance (http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/sec23/ch282/ch282b.html), so carbs, at least plant carbs, apparently can be a real medical problem for some people. It would be interesting to know whether patients with carb intolerance can handle liver and eggs and how one gets tested for carb intolerance.
Trichinosis is still occurring in the USA, largely from wild omnivore meats:
Trichinosis Surveillance, United States, 1986
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001752.htm
The suspected meat was examined for Trichinella larvae in three outbreaks and in one isolated case. Two of these outbreaks involved wild boar meat (Hawaii, seven cases; New Hampshire, seven cases), and the third involved bear meat (Pennsylvania, 14 cases). The consumption of Trichinella-positive cougar meat caused an isolated case in Oregon.
In instances in which the food item was known or suspected (43 cases), pork was incriminated in 26 (60.5%) cases, bear meat in 14 (32.6%), and other meat in three (6.9%). Wild boar was the form of pork most frequently implicated, and it accounted for 14 (32.6%) cases (Table 2). In the other 12 cases due to pork, six patients purchased their pork directly from a farm; three, from a supermarket; and in three cases the origin of the pork was unknown (Table 3).
The method of meat preparation was identified in 42 cases: in 21 (50%), it was roasted over an open fire; in nine (21.4%), the meat was eaten raw; in six (14.3%), it was fried; in five (11.9%), it was microwaved; and in one case, it was boiled.
... and AV said...
Tyler's right. AV saying something doesn't make it so. I think Tyler goes overboard with the attacks on gurus at times, but it's probably because statements like these keep coming up that suggest guru worship, whether intended or not.
There is one positive thing one might say re AV as regards his raw dairy stance. From his point of view, most people have an unreasonable, near-hysterical, media-inspired, phobia towards raw meats ....
Agreed, the amount of hysteria toward raw meats (and insects) is amazing. At times it even takes the shape of hatred! Bizarrely, people have much less trouble with raw fish, as long as it's given special foreign names like sashimi and sushi and eaten in restaurants instead of at home. Also bizarrely, some people who won't eat raw meat or eggs at home will eat it at a restaurant when it's called "steak tartare" (one of my sisters is one). This despite the fact that you can better oversee the safety and quality of the food at home than you can in the unseen kitchen and freezer of a restaurant. Rational people suddenly become hysterical magical thinkers when it comes to raw meats, insects and other unusual foods. It's clearly a matter of social conditioning from an early age.
Thanks for sharing about raw honey, King Salmon. My raw honey experiments have also produced rather poor results. Some folks apparently handle it fine, but not me. It's good to know I'm not the only one, so I will be less likely to fall prey to the temptation to eat a lot of it by convincing myself that it can't be all that bad if no one else reports problems from it.
BTW, Tyler, there's a new and supposedly improved version of the Hygiene Hypothesis called the Old Friends Hypothesis. Jasper, the guy who sells helminthic worms, uses the new term now.
-
to me there is no amount of meat that will supplement a diet that is overloaded on raw fruit or raw veg carbs. There are alot of ex-raw veg cruising the idea of adding animal foods their green smoothie diet or whatever and I don't think that will in the end make much of a difference. It might make up for issues of deficiency, but most issues people run into on vegan diets are not due to hardcore deficiency but fermentation and lack of digestibility or assimilation of raw materials and energy from the food. This is compounded by not enough animal fats to properly pull out all the released toxins, so the stuff cycles in a bad way with the sugar. This idea isn't unique to any one philosophy (carnivorous/vegan etc..)
I mean most modern diets are so absent of raw nutrition but don't run into the same issues as people on a wide spectrum of restricted approaches. Many traditional diets that contain large amounts of processed veg foods combined with healthy lifestyle are far healthier than many people in the high fruit arena.
if we were talking a short period, or even a few years, I would choose a properly executed raw veg low fruit diet and be bored, obsessively sprouting, and weak over a cooked to cinder ZC diet but there is a whole other hierarchy for me.
I would choose a cooked diet that contains raw veg ala Mark Sisson over even a raw fruit based diet that even included some raw meat - if we were talking lifelong for sure. I'd actually choose a healthy SWD diet as well, as at least that would have social benefits.
perhaps i'm the outlier. I think all raw unsalted dairy tastes terrible (sans milk but that is also too carby/fungusy) but certain types are more healthful for me than almost all foods other than fresh unfrozen animal fat and possibly frozen marrow and fresh meats. I think honey is just flat out strange to eat unless I guess if it was part of some kind of recipe that I wouldn't eat probably in the first place. I think veg juice even unmixed (cucumber or cellery) tastes divine and feels awesome in my body but I can't afford it, and take some heed to the blood sugar theories as a precaution while I heal from other various issues. If I had no health issues around sugar, I would still choose veg juices over whole fruit if I had to choose on nutrition alone, but in the real world I would consume small amounts of both for health.
-
What's wrong with studying Price/Pottenger?
Direct extrapolation of the results from the cats to humans is very very WRONG.
Raw aspect is good of course.
But claiming that we should eat as carnivorously as cats is a nonsense. Our metabolism is different than their.
http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm
-
Hannibal: It's interesting to me that humans are supposed to be the most "intelligent" of the species on earth,yet have the hardest time trying to figure out what to eat ;D
-
have the hardest time trying to figure out what to eat ;D
I haven't got any problems. 8)
I eat what I want to eat - primarily from fauna.
-
I haven't got any problems. 8)
I eat what I want to eat - primarily from fauna.
Yeah,discovered after how much time devoted to research and experimentation? ;)
-
Yeah,discovered after how much time devoted to research and experimentation? ;)
Because I hadn't been raised amoung primitive raw eaters somewhere in Alaska.
A lot of to unlearn :)
-
I know I'm coming in late in the conversation, but I'm still stuck a few pages back...
I tried a milk liver smoothie ... It didn't taste good.
Next time, just ask...